From daemon Fri Aug 2 00:57:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g724v1A29479 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.inland.net ([216.35.182.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g724v0T29473 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer ([216.69.224.84]) by ns1.inland.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA08959 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00d001c239e1$09a07250$9ae045d8@computer> From: "M. H." To: "Forensic Science List" References: <3D45C60B.7896.4B36A1@localhost> Subject: Time of Death Lab Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:56:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1881 I just read in a book a fact that I hadn't known before and it sparked in my mind some possible lab situations for my chemistry classes but I can't get all of the details worked out. What I read was that time of death can be determined by the amount of potassium ions deposited in the vitreous fluid in the eye by red blood cells. I have a couple of questions: 1) For how long does this process go on; hours, days, weeks? 2) Why is it not affected by environmental conditions or livor mortis? 3) How is the potassium measured in a real forensic lab? AA, GC/MS? 4) How could this be simulated in a high school lab with artificial evidence (and no AA or GC/MS)? Normally, I would have students precipitate the ions and do a gravimetric analysis, but you can't precipitate potassium ions. We can do flame tests to prove that there's potassium, but it's not quantitative. Potassium solutions are colorless, so colorimetric is out of the question? Any other simple ways to test for potassium? What would be the other half of the potassium compound (chloride, sulphate, nitrate?) and would that be an equally reliable way to test? I could just say that it's another ion and have them test for something easier, but I like to keep it as realistic as possible. The situation that I had in mind is that security cameras at the school recorded three teachers going into the administration building at three different times after hours and coming back out. The next day, the principal was found dead. From the time of death, they would determine who the killer most likely would be. I have several other labs like this in which science teachers kill the principal for denying a purchase order or some other absurd situation and the students really enjoy them. Thanks in advance for any help, M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA From daemon Fri Aug 2 09:22:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72DMBF06189 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil (dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil [204.208.124.132]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72DMAT06183 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:22:07 -0500 Message-ID: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439F17@dasmthgsh666.amedd.army.mil> From: "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" To: Forensic Science List Subject: RE: Time of Death Lab Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:19:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1590 Would that it were that simple. Potassium may be somewhat useful, but it does increase its concentration dependent on the rate of decomposition. The problem is the variability: +/- 10 hours in the first 24, 20 in the first 48, 30 in the first 72. So you find a body at 9 AM who was last known to be alive at 5 PM the previous day and conclude the most probable TOD is 1 AM; your actual range is 6:30 PM to 7:30 AM. In the last 16 years, at least, I haven't heard of a real forensic pathologist ordering this test. I'm not enough of a lab guy to give details, but field medical companies in the Army would do K+ by flame ionization spectrophotometry. Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net] I just read in a book a fact that I hadn't known before and it sparked in my mind some possible lab situations for my chemistry classes but I can't get all of the details worked out. What I read was that time of death can be determined by the amount of potassium ions deposited in the vitreous fluid in the eye by red blood cells. I have a couple of questions: 1) For how long does this process go on; hours, days, weeks? 2) Why is it not affected by environmental conditions or livor mortis? 3) How is the potassium measured in a real forensic lab? AA, GC/MS? 4) How could this be simulated in a high school lab with artificial evidence (and no AA or GC/MS)? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Aug 2 09:42:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72Dgjb07110 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.upjs.sk (mail.upjs.sk [158.197.16.41]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72DgcT07101 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.upjs.sk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g72Dg6R21813 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:42:06 +0200 Received: from 158.197.16.30.upjs.sk ([158.197.114.97]) by mail.upjs.sk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g72Dg1921782 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:42:02 +0200 Message-ID: <001501c23a2a$a7d84080$6172c59e@197.16.30.upjs.sk> From: "Bobrov N." To: "FORENS-L" Subject: Zyprexa -MS Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:43:37 +0200 Organization: USL LF UPJS MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - (http://pldaniels.com/inflex/) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="windows-1250" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 688 Dear colleagues, does anyone have a MS spectrum of Zyprexa (Olanzapine, drug for psychotic disorders) or a link to find it? Unfortunately, there is no such information at http://www.zyprexa.com. The thing is, I have a suspicious toxicological case. There is a net reference to Robert G. Rodriguez and Gary W. Kunsman from Texas; they investigated Zyprexa with GC-MS in blood post mortem (http://www.sat-tox.org/sanangelo.html). Nothing more I found... Thanks in advance. Nikita Bobrov, MD, PhD Institute of Forensic Medicine Faculty of Medicine P.J.Safarik University Kosice, Slovak Republic E-mail: From daemon Fri Aug 2 10:21:39 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72ELde08199 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.inland.net ([216.35.182.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72ELcT08193 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer ([216.69.224.77]) by ns1.inland.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA04225 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <010101c23a2f$eac1d280$9ae045d8@computer> From: "M. H." To: "Forensic Science List" References: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439F17@dasmthgsh666.amedd.army.mil> Subject: Re: Time of Death Lab Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:21:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2475 The book, "The Casebook of Forensic Detection; How Science Solved 100 of the World's Most Baffling Crimes" is hardly a forensic textbook, but here's what it says, "as red blood cells break down after death, their potassium content enters the vitreous fluid of the eye at a slow but predictable rate. Because this reaction is unaffected by ambient temperature, its reliability is thought to be greater then the three traditional methods described earlier (which are rigor mortis, lividity, and body temperature). M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" To: "Forensic Science List" Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:19 AM Subject: RE: Time of Death Lab > Would that it were that simple. Potassium may be somewhat useful, but it > does increase its concentration dependent on the rate of decomposition. The > problem is the variability: +/- 10 hours in the first 24, 20 in the first > 48, 30 in the first 72. So you find a body at 9 AM who was last known to be > alive at 5 PM the previous day and conclude the most probable TOD is 1 AM; > your actual range is 6:30 PM to 7:30 AM. In the last 16 years, at least, I > haven't heard of a real forensic pathologist ordering this test. I'm not > enough of a lab guy to give details, but field medical companies in the Army > would do K+ by flame ionization spectrophotometry. > Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO > David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil > -----Original Message----- > From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net] > > I just read in a book a fact that I hadn't known before and it sparked in my > mind some possible lab situations for my chemistry classes but I can't get > all of the details worked out. What I read was that time of death can be > determined by the amount of potassium ions deposited in the vitreous fluid > in the eye by red blood cells. I have a couple of questions: > > 1) For how long does this process go on; hours, days, weeks? > > 2) Why is it not affected by environmental conditions or livor mortis? > > 3) How is the potassium measured in a real forensic lab? AA, GC/MS? > > 4) How could this be simulated in a high school lab with artificial evidence > (and no AA or GC/MS)? > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > > From daemon Fri Aug 2 10:39:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72EdMU08815 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72EdLT08809 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g72EdGJU016579; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:39:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Oliver To: "M. H." cc: Forensic Science List Subject: Re: Time of Death Lab In-Reply-To: <010101c23a2f$eac1d280$9ae045d8@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 710 On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, M. H. wrote: > From: M. H. > > Because this reaction is unaffected by ambient temperature, its reliability > is thought to be greater then the three traditional methods described > earlier (which are rigor mortis, lividity, and body temperature). > Unfortunately, that's a little like saying that a crowbar is better than a hammer for opening envelopes. Perhaps, and both can be used, but neither is all that suited to the job. The problem is that all these things (except, perhaps, temperature change) measure aspects of decomposition. Since decomposition *itself* is variable, even very good measures of it provide a poor measure of time since death. billo From daemon Fri Aug 2 10:42:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72EgKi09138 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72EgIT09107 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216-164-58-30.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com ([216.164.58.30] helo=BART.starpower.net) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #5) id 17addA-0000lr-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 10:42:16 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020802103710.01975f48@pop.rcn.com> X-Sender: johnfrench@pop.rcn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 10:42:37 -0400 To: Forensic Science List From: John French Subject: RE: Time of Death Lab The Best Part In-Reply-To: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439F17@dasmthgsh666.amedd. army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1707 The best part of this exchange is imagining the fun a few of the students of a high school teacher this innovative and dedicated must experience. Learning Rules! John French At 09:19 AM 8/2/2002, you wrote: >Would that it were that simple. Potassium may be somewhat useful, but it >does increase its concentration dependent on the rate of decomposition. The >problem is the variability: +/- 10 hours in the first 24, 20 in the first >48, 30 in the first 72. So you find a body at 9 AM who was last known to be >alive at 5 PM the previous day and conclude the most probable TOD is 1 AM; >your actual range is 6:30 PM to 7:30 AM. In the last 16 years, at least, I >haven't heard of a real forensic pathologist ordering this test. I'm not >enough of a lab guy to give details, but field medical companies in the Army >would do K+ by flame ionization spectrophotometry. >Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO >David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil >-----Original Message----- >From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net] > >I just read in a book a fact that I hadn't known before and it sparked in my >mind some possible lab situations for my chemistry classes but I can't get >all of the details worked out. What I read was that time of death can be >determined by the amount of potassium ions deposited in the vitreous fluid >in the eye by red blood cells. I have a couple of questions: > >1) For how long does this process go on; hours, days, weeks? > >2) Why is it not affected by environmental conditions or livor mortis? > >3) How is the potassium measured in a real forensic lab? AA, GC/MS? > >4) How could this be simulated in a high school lab with artificial evidence >(and no AA or GC/MS)? From daemon Fri Aug 2 12:32:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72GWLu12278 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dasmthkhn463.amedd.army.mil (dasmthkhn463.amedd.army.mil [204.208.124.133]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72GWKT12270 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dasmthkhn463.amedd.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:32:11 -0500 Message-ID: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439F1B@dasmthgsh666.amedd.army.mil> From: "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" To: Forensic Science List Subject: RE: Time of Death Lab Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:29:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 940 I was paraphrasing from DiMaio & DiMaio, Forensic Pathology, 2nd ed. The variability quotation was a personal communication between the authors and Dr. John Coe, retired chief ME in Minneapolis, who did a lot of the early research. Dave -----Original Message----- From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net] The book, "The Casebook of Forensic Detection; How Science Solved 100 of the World's Most Baffling Crimes" is hardly a forensic textbook, but here's what it says, "as red blood cells break down after death, their potassium content enters the vitreous fluid of the eye at a slow but predictable rate. Because this reaction is unaffected by ambient temperature, its reliability is thought to be greater then the three traditional methods described earlier (which are rigor mortis, lividity, and body temperature). --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Aug 2 17:54:16 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72LsGX18157 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72LsFT18151 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:15 -0400 Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:00 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: FORENS-L Subject: RE: Zyprexa -MS Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="windows-1250" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1584 It is available in the AAFS Toxicology Section's Mass Spectral Database, available for free download at www.AAFS.org. If you don't want to download and install the library, you can view individual spectra from the library at ThermoGalacta's "Spectra Online" page at http://spectra.galactic.com/SpectraOnline/Default_ie.htm. Search for olanzapine, and the engine will return three spectra from the library. You have to register to access the search results and view the spectra, but registration is free. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Bobrov N. [mailto:bobrov@central.medic.upjs.sk] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 09:44 To: FORENS-L Subject: Zyprexa -MS Dear colleagues, does anyone have a MS spectrum of Zyprexa (Olanzapine, drug for psychotic disorders) or a link to find it? Unfortunately, there is no such information at http://www.zyprexa.com. The thing is, I have a suspicious toxicological case. There is a net reference to Robert G. Rodriguez and Gary W. Kunsman from Texas; they investigated Zyprexa with GC-MS in blood post mortem (http://www.sat-tox.org/sanangelo.html). Nothing more I found... Thanks in advance. Nikita Bobrov, MD, PhD Institute of Forensic Medicine Faculty of Medicine P.J.Safarik University Kosice, Slovak Republic E-mail: --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Aug 2 17:54:45 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72LsjC18187 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72LsiT18181 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:45 -0400 Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: Forensic Science List Subject: RE: Time of Death Lab Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:54:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2727 The Hach Company sells a soil test kit which provides semi-quantitative determination of potassium using sodium tetraphenylborate, which precipitates potassium in neutral or acidic aqueous solution. The kit is reportedly very sensitive, and includes a second binding agent to prevent interference by heavy metals (a problem for soil, but probably not for vitreous). I don't know how realistic it would be, but for illustrative purposes with "simulated vitreous" it just might work. Can't help with the other questions, sorry. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist -----Original Message----- From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 00:57 To: Forensic Science List Subject: Time of Death Lab I just read in a book a fact that I hadn't known before and it sparked in my mind some possible lab situations for my chemistry classes but I can't get all of the details worked out. What I read was that time of death can be determined by the amount of potassium ions deposited in the vitreous fluid in the eye by red blood cells. I have a couple of questions: 1) For how long does this process go on; hours, days, weeks? 2) Why is it not affected by environmental conditions or livor mortis? 3) How is the potassium measured in a real forensic lab? AA, GC/MS? 4) How could this be simulated in a high school lab with artificial evidence (and no AA or GC/MS)? Normally, I would have students precipitate the ions and do a gravimetric analysis, but you can't precipitate potassium ions. We can do flame tests to prove that there's potassium, but it's not quantitative. Potassium solutions are colorless, so colorimetric is out of the question? Any other simple ways to test for potassium? What would be the other half of the potassium compound (chloride, sulphate, nitrate?) and would that be an equally reliable way to test? I could just say that it's another ion and have them test for something easier, but I like to keep it as realistic as possible. The situation that I had in mind is that security cameras at the school recorded three teachers going into the administration building at three different times after hours and coming back out. The next day, the principal was found dead. From the time of death, they would determine who the killer most likely would be. I have several other labs like this in which science teachers kill the principal for denying a purchase order or some other absurd situation and the students really enjoy them. Thanks in advance for any help, M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Aug 2 17:55:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g72Ltrl18414 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g72LtqT18408 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:55:53 -0400 Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:55:38 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: cocaine on one dollar bills Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:55:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2255 Yes, you can often detect residue on a single bill. What I meant was that you won't always find residue on every single individual bill, but you will almost always find residue on a wad of bills (i.e., in any given wad of bills there is very likely to be at least one or more bills with residue). As Wayne alluded to, a single contaminated bill can contaminate all the processing machines it passes through, and those machines will then further spread the contamination to every bill that passes through them after that. This means that even brand new bills may already bear residue by the time a bank hands them to the first user, and if they don't already have cocaine residue on them at that time, they probably soon will. The snopes page addressing this phenomenon provides a good concise discussion of how such widespread contamination can result from a relatively few initially contaminated bills. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: WMorris400@aol.com [mailto:WMorris400@aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 23:17 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; bobkegel@seanet.com Subject: Re: cocaine on one dollar bills As to the detection of cocaine on single bills, this has been done. Depending upon the randomness of sampling, in a sample of 20 bills about 75 to 95 percent of the bills can have cocaine residue. The more worn the bill, the higher the likelihood of finding the cocaine. Reports have been made that the conveyor belts at Fed banks have cocaine residue on them. I have found cocaine residue on $100 bills, fairly new looking, from a bank and on single bills from many random samples. The Orlando Sentinel had an article on Volusia County seizures some years ago and A&E Network on Gulf Coast seizures of money. Both were mainly based upon dogs sniffing postive. I was asked to assist with both the Orlando Sentinel and A&E articles. Wayne Morris Morris-Kopec Forensics --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Aug 5 11:19:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g75FJ6E29991 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu (gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu [129.106.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g75FJ5T29985 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sbobst@localhost) by gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA16622; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:21:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:21:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sol M. Bobst" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: New member Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 542 List members, Hello. My name is Sol Bobst. I am a doctoral candidate in Biomedical Science at UT-Houston. I have focused in Human & Molecular Genetics. To my knowledge, there is not an independent Foresnic DNA lab in Houston or the state of Texas. If there is anyone in Texas on this list, or anywhere, that would be willing to be receptive to some questions. Please contact me. Best Regards, I look forward to learning about Forensic Science being a part of this list. Sol Bobst PhD Candidate UT-Houston E: Sol.M.Bobst@uth.tmc.edu From daemon Mon Aug 5 18:46:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g75MkkY09814 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfilter2.uts.edu.au (mailfilter2.itd.uts.EDU.AU [138.25.22.73]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g75MkiT09808 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homer.itd.uts.edu.au(138.25.22.96) by mailfilter2.uts.edu.au via csmap id 22934; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:43:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from croux.uts.edu.au (b4323a-2.geo.uts.edu.au [138.25.82.144]) by mail.uts.edu.au (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0E00EMZ79QOY@mail.uts.edu.au> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:46:42 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:43:32 +1000 From: Claude Roux Subject: Academic Vacancy at UTS X-Sender: croux@mailbox.uts.edu.au To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020806083855.0240cbd0@mailbox.uts.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3570 Dear Forensic Friend, Please find below an ad for a lecturer in Forensic Biology in the Department of Cell & Molecular Biology at UTS. I would be grateful if you could pass this on to any individuals who you think may be interested and suitable for this position. The potential for academic progression for such a position is significant given the current development of the UTS Centre for Forensic Science. Thanks. Regards Claude ACADEMIC VACANCY AT UTS LECTURER IN FORENSIC BIOLOGY Ref No. R8702 The Department of Cell and Molecular Biology at the University of Technology, Sydney is seeking a suitably qualified person to fill a lecturer position in Forensic Biology. In this role you will contribute to teaching primarily in the area of human forensic biology, but will also be expected to contribute to educational development in related areas of molecular biosciences or pathology. You will also be expected to develop a successful research program in human forensic biology, compatible with existing research in the department and the recently established Centre for Forensic Science, a cross disciplinary centre which encompasses forensic chemistry and forensic biology. Preferably, you will have a PhD in an area relevant to human forensic biology with experience in DNA profiling or other methods for identification of human remains, and ability and enthusiasm for teaching. Close date: 9 August 2002. Please include details of three referees. Salary range: $52,580 to $62,425 pa (to mid-level only). A 4.5% pay increase is effective from 30 September 2002. The University offers a wide-ranging salary packaging scheme to all staff plus attractive superannuation. APPLICATION PROCEDURE Obtain the selection criteria, which need to be addressed in your application, from the UTS website: www.uts.edu.au/div/hru/employ or phone 02 9514 1087. For further information contact Associate Professor, Anita Piper, Head of Department, on 02 9514 4056 or website: http://www.science.uts.edu.au/cmb/. Applications should be received by the nominated closing date, quote the appropriate Ref No., and be addressed to: The Recruitment Officer, University of Technology, Sydney PO Box 123, Broadway NSW 2007 ========================================== Associate Professor Claude Roux Director, Centre for Forensic Science Forensic Science Course Co-ordinator Dept. of Chemistry, Materials and Forensic Science University of Technology Sydney PO Box 123, Broadway, NSW, AUSTRALIA, 2007 Tel: +61 2 9514 17 18 Fax: +61 2 9514 14 60 Email: Claude.Roux@uts.edu.au http://www.forensics.edu.au http://www.science.uts.edu.au/index.html UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER ======================================================================== This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. ======================================================================== --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Aug 5 19:17:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g75NHwn10387 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.101]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g75NHvT10381 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cfwhiteh@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id 7.cd.1b5633d4 (4509); Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:17:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Cfwhiteh@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:17:47 EDT Subject: Re: cocaine on one dollar bills To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP US sub 50 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 871 So how small an amount of illicit substance is too small. Say you are trying to determine if the material is "marketable." Are there any limits. I imagine, for instance, an individual caught with a bag containing cutting agent, which bag contained in the past, heroin. But the only heroin left in the bag was residue. Suppose you have 25 grams of cut and about .1% heroin. Is that "marketable" as illicit substance. Do courts/jurisdictions recognize that as "marketable." I understand that the DEA has offered some opinions concerning this in the past. But I can not find the references. This goes to how much illicit substance can we have on the 20 dollar bill or any before we can be charged with possession. Fred Whitehurst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Aug 6 10:14:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g76EE6h20945 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g76EE4T20939 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (d3914.pppdel.vsnl.net.in [203.197.206.29]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E81040CED; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:46:41 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3D4FD87C.C7E9931F@vsnl.net> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:39:00 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Legal age of viability Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2823 6 August 2002 Dear Sirs, I was going through Bernard Knight's forensic pathology 1st edition (1990). At page 412 he mentions that the legal age of viability in the UK is 28 weeks. Then I turned to his same book second edition (1996). At page 438, he says that the legal age of viability is 24 weeks. My questions are as follows: 1. Has there been a change in law between 1990 and 1996? If there has been one, Knight does not mention it in the second edition. 2. Knight says that it is for the purposes of the Infant Life (Preservation) Act, 1929. Can someone give the exact section in which this is mentioned, and the exact wordings please? 3. Is this age from the date of LMP, or from the date of formation of zygote? There is a difference of 14 days between the two. 4. Can our dear list members let us know about the legal ages of viability in different countries. I will make a start by telling the legal age in India. There is no explicit law, but traditionally it is taken as 210 days. Various Indian books are vague about the fact whether this period is from the LMP or from the formation of zygote. 5. What are the legal situations in which the question of viability of a fetus can arise? To my mind there is only one such situation. That is when we have a dead fetus and there is a charge of infanticide on someone. He might want to take the defence that the fetus was non-viable in the first place, if he can show that it was less than x weeks in age, x being the legal age of viability. Can there be other situations too where this question can become important? Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Tue Aug 6 10:15:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g76EFsR21052 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.101]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g76EFrT21044 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LeonStein@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id 3.157.120626ef (17377); Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:15:47 -0400 (EDT) From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: <157.120626ef.2a813413@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:15:47 EDT Subject: Re: New member To: sbobst@gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10500 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 379 There are at least 3 private labs in Texas performing DNA analysis, if that is what you mean by "independent." Genescreen in Dallas comes to mind immediately. The other is in the Houston area, however, its name does not come to mind at present. David --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Aug 6 10:17:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g76EHC221318 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g76EHAT21312 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (d3914.pppdel.vsnl.net.in [203.197.206.29]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AC340BD2 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:50:01 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3D4FDA68.F3F86665@vsnl.net> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:47:12 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Legal age of viability Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2827 6 August 2002 Dear Sirs, I was going through Bernard Knight's forensic pathology 1st edition (1990). At page 412 he mentions that the legal age of viability in the UK is 28 weeks. Then I turned to his same book second edition (1996). At page 438, he says that the legal age of viability is 24 weeks. My questions are as follows: 1. Has there been a change in law between 1990 and 1996? If there has been one, Knight does not mention it in the second edition. 2. Knight says that it is for the purposes of the Infant Life (Preservation) Act, 1929. Can someone give the exact section in which this is mentioned, and the exact wordings please? 3. Is this age from the date of LMP, or from the date of formation of zygote? There is a difference of 14 days between the two. 4. Can our dear list members let us know about the legal ages of viability in different countries. I will make a start by telling the legal age in India. There is no explicit law, but traditionally it is taken as 210 days. Various Indian books are vague about the fact whether this period is from the LMP or from the formation of zygote. 5. What are the legal situations in which the question of viability of a fetus can arise? To my mind there is only one such situation. That is when we have a dead fetus and there is a charge of infanticide on someone. He might want to take the defence that the fetus was non-viable in the first place, if he can show that it was less than x weeks in age, x being the legal age of viability. Can there be other situations too where this question can become important? Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Tue Aug 6 11:15:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g76FFA123162 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g76FFAG23156 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Jeanine Serusa" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1663 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 03:24:17 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Jeanine Serusa" ] >From forens-owner Tue Aug 6 03:24:16 2002 Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g767OGT16230 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 03:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([4.63.18.73]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with SMTP id <20020806072416.ONKX8715.out008.verizon.net@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:24:16 -0500 Message-ID: <001f01c23d1a$ad432ce0$49123f04@dslverizon.net> From: "Jeanine Serusa" To: Subject: DNA Testing Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:27:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Would anyone happen to know/recommend an independent forensics lab in = the Sacramento, CA area and approximately how much is DNA testing. I = thank everyone in advance for their responses Jeanine n.starz@verizon.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Aug 7 13:27:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g77HR9219865 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g77HR7T19859 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.197.125]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020807172707.NJEC5047.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:27:07 +0100 Message-ID: <00ed01c23e37$5e7a6c40$1ec8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "Forensic-Science@yahoogroups.com" Subject: Animal & Bird Activity Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:25:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g77HR9319865 Content-Length: 1017 I am dealing with a case where something odd appears to have gone on. A man was murdered in a wooded area. His body was discovered twelve days later. It had been partially burned and was in a watery/clay like grave with a large log/branch covering part of it. This was in another wooded area. The grave was below the water table, but the remains are clearly visible and not wholly covered by the log. According to the confession this body must have been in that grave for eleven days and nights. I have established that certain animals and birds that frequent wooded areas would have been in that area. However, there is no evidence of any animal activity on the body, nor is there any evidence of bird activity, or rather none has been reported. Is it unusual for foxes, badgers, rats, mice, crows, magpies and jays to ignore an available food resource like this? Best Wishes Satish Sekar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Aug 7 17:39:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g77Ldg225146 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sentinel.uaa.alaska.edu (Sentinel.uaa.alaska.edu [137.229.100.128]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g77LdeT25139 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uaa.alaska.edu ([137.229.178.216]) by sentinel.uaa.alaska.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 uaa Dec 7 2001 09:58:59) with ESMTP id H0HTHT00.UFQ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:39:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3D51183E.2BB5B997@uaa.alaska.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 05:53:18 -0700 From: "CHRISTINE HANSON" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,da,fr,is,no,sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" , forensic Subject: Re: Animal & Bird Activity References: <00ed01c23e37$5e7a6c40$1ec8fc3e@oemcomputer> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 988 "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" wrote: > > Is it unusual for foxes, badgers, rats, mice, crows, magpies and jays to ignore an available food resource like this? > We did an experiment (which I hope to publish soon) on surreptitious burial -- using pigs -- here in Alaska. We found fox and even bear tracks within 100 feet of the "corpses" but NO vertebrate activity at all on/to the pigs. This was especially surprising since the time period included both the winter when resources are presumed to be scarce for foxes/magpies/ravens and the spring when bears are most eager to eat. Hope this helps. CLH -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Christine L Hanson, Chair Tel: (907) 786-6839 Department of Anthropology Fax: (907) 786-6850 University of Alaska Anchorage Email: afclh@uaa.alaska.edu Anchorage, AK 99508 ~~~ The pure and simple truth is neither ~~~ From daemon Wed Aug 7 20:06:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g78064Q27346 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.227]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78062T27340 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g78062Cb019091 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:05:59 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:05:58 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:04:05 -0700 From: "Geoff Bruton" To: Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, afclh@uaa.alaska.edu Subject: Re: Animal & Bird Activity MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 114F6A6D1326542-01-02 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g78063T27341 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1973 A very interesting thread, though I am afraid it is not an area that I have any expertise in! Just my thoughts... Question: Might the inactivity of scavengers be due to the seasonal temperature affecting the rate of decomposition? Presumably such scavengers 'home in' on those volatile compounds produced during decomposition. As microbial activity is inhibited at lower temperatures, so too would the rate of production of volatile decomposition products. Moreover, the volatility of these compounds would also be reduced at colder temperatures, becoming less potent (or less 'attractive'), to the potential scavenger. Was there a marked decrease in the level of entomological activity? If this experiment was performed during the winter season, was there any insect activity at all? Best wishes to all, -G. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section >>> "CHRISTINE HANSON" 08/07/02 05:53AM >>> "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" wrote: > > Is it unusual for foxes, badgers, rats, mice, crows, magpies and jays to ignore an available food resource like this? > We did an experiment (which I hope to publish soon) on surreptitious burial -- using pigs -- here in Alaska. We found fox and even bear tracks within 100 feet of the "corpses" but NO vertebrate activity at all on/to the pigs. This was especially surprising since the time period included both the winter when resources are presumed to be scarce for foxes/magpies/ravens and the spring when bears are most eager to eat. Hope this helps. CLH -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Christine L Hanson, Chair Tel: (907) 786-6839 Department of Anthropology Fax: (907) 786-6850 University of Alaska Anchorage Email: afclh@uaa.alaska.edu Anchorage, AK 99508 ~~~ The pure and simple truth is neither ~~~ From daemon Wed Aug 7 21:02:49 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7812n728258 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7812mT28251 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LEGALEYE1@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.18d.c0c8e83 (4312) for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:02:38 -0400 (EDT) From: LEGALEYE1@aol.com Message-ID: <18d.c0c8e83.2a831d2d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:02:37 EDT Subject: A question about North American Insects To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10512 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6300 I recently returned from a trip to Yosemite National Park where I observed some invertebrate wildlife I can't identify. A search of the Internet has left me frustrated, not necessarily from a lack of information but rather too much. Sort of an inability to see the forest for the trees problem. Then I recalled seeing exchanges on this list regarding forensic entomology as well as my own discussions here, a year or so back, regarding specifically hellgrammites, a species of aquatic insect found in Yosemite. So I decided to turn once again to the entomologists or anyone else on the list that could help satisfy my curiosity regarding the critters I saw. After a rather unexciting stay at my favorite place on earth, my friend and I decided to go swimming at a semi secluded spot I knew of. My friend's aversion to crawly things proved to be beneficial when she called me over to identify something swimming on the surface of the water near her. It turned out to be a centipede that had the misfortune of getting washed into the river and was floundering in an unsuccessful attempt to find something to crawl up out of the water on. After explaining to my friend what the critter was and the function of the modification to the front set of it's appendages, we left the beastie to it's demise. That evening I walked don to the rivers edge near our campsite to photograph a particularly attractive spot I had seen earlier. After snapping a few pictures I began examining the little critters that were living in the shallow water at our feet. It's not a pretty site for any one who might come across me as I crouched on my knees and elbows or tried to lay across the clusters of rocks mid way in the low flowing river but when I get a hankering to examine nature looking cool takes a back seat and anyone unfortunate enough to spy my large butt sticking up above the rest of my body will have to bear the scars for life or seek professional counseling to get over the traumatic site. Anyway back to my point. Among the creatures that caught my interest were the numerous skeletons on the dried rocks that resembled small cricket carcasses, and an unusual bug attempting to hide under the small rocks and gravel on the river bottom. I concluded that the skeletons were the cast of outer "skin" of insects that had spent the first stage of their lives under the water and had metamorphed (Is that a word?) into some of the flying critters that swarmed us when we turned the lights on at night. Most likely some type of damselfly or such. But the bug we saw still living under the water I had no clue about. Someone suggested the possibility it was the water stag of a dragonfly and this seems quite possible but I have not been able to find a picture of the little bugger to confirm this. So I now turn to the list for help. The creature looked at first like the centipede we had seen earlier but much shorter and I couldn't tell if it had a segmented body. I may have been influenced by the earlier site of the centipede in thinking the two looked similar. The head appeared to have eyes and side hinged mouthparts. It had what looked like a lobster type tail. The little bug was rather adapt at moving about under water both forward and back as well as in moving itself under the cover of stones and small rocks. I hope my description is enough for someone to identify this critter for me, as it's been a minor annoyance since I spotted it. I do have another critter identification question that is not an insect or any type of arthropod. Before leaving Yosemite we decided to take one last swim. During this dip I remembered one of the reasons I love this place so much. The water temperature in late July and early August is refreshingly cool but not cold. I found it difficult to force myself from the water to begin the 6 to 7 hour drive home and in fact we ended up getting home after midnight because we stayed too long. While enjoying the pleasant feeling of the water and the weightless feeling that relieved me of the burden of this far too neglected over weight body, I spied what looked like a piece of white string floating suspended under the water after I disturbed the sand and gravel. As I watched it the string seemed to move and coil at one end. Upon closed observation I could see that the string was actually some type of worm. It was about seven inches long, very thin, with what appeared to be tapered ends that were slightly darker than the body. My first impression was that it looked like a thin, round, tapeworm but this was only a comparative observation. A short while later I observed another shorter individual. Since I was collecting some stones from the river in a plastic bag I maneuvered the worms into the bag but then forgot about them. When I emptied the collection of stoned into a sink at home I discovered the worms were still there and despite being out of water (but still damp) the larger specimen was still active, at least up till yesterday when I last looked. Any one have an idea what these little guys are? One last note, I think it was last year I had a brief discussion on the list with some one about the wildlife population at Yosemite and how it had drastically declined over the past couple of decades. One of the indicators of this decline was the rarity of hellgrammites in the rivers as well as the absence of amphibians and reptiles. I don't remember whom I discussed this with but I think it was either John or Bob. I just wanted to note that there seems to be a bit of a recovery as there were hellgrammites every ware and I even caught a snake without searching for one. I was a bit concerned about the absence of tadpoles and an apparent lack of bats, having seen only one, but that one was rather bold as it flew within one or two feet as we stood along the river bank watching it snatch up bugs above the water surface at one point my friend reported she felt the wind from it as it flew past her head. It seems that the reports are true about the positive influence the 1997 "100 years flood" had on the ecosystem in Yosemite. But the effect on man's buildings was disastrous. My thanks to all who reply Bill From daemon Wed Aug 7 21:39:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g781dMN28958 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sentinel.uaa.alaska.edu (Sentinel.uaa.alaska.edu [137.229.100.128]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g781dKT28952 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uaa.alaska.edu ([137.229.178.216]) by sentinel.uaa.alaska.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 uaa Dec 7 2001 09:58:59) with ESMTP id H0I4L900.PTK; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:39:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3D51BDBC.AD7D1514@uaa.alaska.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:39:24 -0700 From: "CHRISTINE HANSON" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,da,fr,is,no,sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Geoff Bruton CC: Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Animal & Bird Activity References: X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1685 Geoff Bruton wrote: > Question: Might the inactivity of scavengers be due to the seasonal temperature affecting the rate of decomposition? Yes, definitely. However ravens and foxes are out all year. The bears were awake towards the end of the experiment. > Presumably such scavengers 'home in' on those volatile compounds produced during decomposition. As microbial activity is inhibited at lower temperatures, so too would the rate of production of volatile decomposition products. Moreover, the volatility of these compounds would also be reduced at colder temperatures, becoming less potent (or less 'attractive'), to the potential scavenger. Bears can detect the contents of a sealed can from a great distance so even decreased scents should have been detectable (towards the end, even we insensitive H. sapiens were aware of the carcasses. > Was there a marked decrease in the level of entomological activity? If this experiment was performed during the winter season, was there any insect activity at all? No insects during the winter and the maggot mass did NOT migrate when colonization did occur after thaw. Gee -- maybe now I don't need to write the paper! :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Christine L Hanson, Chair Tel: (907) 786-6839 Department of Anthropology Fax: (907) 786-6850 University of Alaska Anchorage Email: afclh@uaa.alaska.edu Anchorage, AK 99508 ~~~ The pure and simple truth is neither ~~~ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Aug 7 22:30:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g782UQr29766 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g782UPT29760 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.68]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020808023022.CUTO290.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 03:30:22 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c23e83$436c3cc0$44c8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: Re. Case Posted Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 03:28:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g782UQs29766 Content-Length: 1010 In the case I was referring to the murder occurred in the night of May 13th-14th May and according to the confession the body was buried between the evening of May 14th to night of May 14th-15th. The remains were discovered in the morning of May 26th. The remains were teeming with maggots. It wasn't quite summer in the UK at the time, but it was certainly late spring to early summer in terms of temperatures and weather conditions. Nevertheless there was heavy rain on a couple of nights and thunder and lightening on one night. In t.his case wouldn't the production of volatile decomposition products be increased, thereby becoming more attractive to potential scavengers. In the above-mentioned case the remains was heavily infested with maggots. Under these circumstances would such remains be likely to attract potential scavengers such as foxes, etc.? Best Wishes Satish Sekar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Aug 7 23:21:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g783Lau00452 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bcpl.net (mail.bcpl.net [204.255.212.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g783LZT00446 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cdefine@localhost) by mail.bcpl.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g783LXP27786; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:21:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdefine@mail To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Re. Case Posted In-Reply-To: <000c01c23e83$436c3cc0$44c8fc3e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1936 Where in the UK did this occur? Was it coastal? I have been to the southern coast, and some of it is quite rugged and awe-inspiring, especially the southwest. Anyway, if the weather conditions were stormy, I can attest to the fact that the winds can be quite forceful, and perhaps the scent of the corpse was directed out to sea. Also with this type of weather, perhaps the animals and birds were hunkering down instead of being on the prowl. Even if this was not coastal, the other possibility is that the corpse, because of the rain and high water table, could have been under water for a good bit of the 12 day time period, being held under by the log on top. Thus the birds and the animals did not get the scent. Were you able to determine the age of maggot development? This might tell you the time period the body was above water. Just curious, why do you think the lack of animal/bird activity on the body is important to your case? Carol On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com wrote: > In the case I was referring to the murder occurred in the night of May > 13th-14th May and according to the confession the body was buried > between the evening of May 14th to night of May 14th-15th. The remains > were discovered in the morning of May 26th. The remains were teeming > with maggots. It wasn't quite summer in the UK at the time, but it was > certainly late spring to early summer in terms of temperatures and > weather conditions. Nevertheless there was heavy rain on a couple of > nights and thunder and lightening on one night. In t.his case wouldn't > the production of volatile decomposition products be increased, thereby > becoming more attractive to potential scavengers. > > In the above-mentioned case the remains was heavily infested with > maggots. Under these circumstances would such remains be likely to > attract potential scavengers such as foxes, etc.? > > Best Wishes > > Satish Sekar > From daemon Thu Aug 8 09:51:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g78DpNk07694 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.nist.gov (email.nist.gov [129.6.2.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78DpMT07685 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goodpaster (h179112.nist.gov [129.6.179.112]) by email.nist.gov (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g78DpLps017667 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20020808094230.00b18140@mailserver.nist.gov> X-Sender: jgoodpas@mailserver.nist.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:46:27 -0400 To: Forensic Science Mailing List From: John Goodpaster Subject: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 770 Greetings, I'm curious about what organization currently generates proficiency samples for forensic science laboratories. I seem to recall that it was CTS at one point (I've forgotten what that stands for again? Collaborative Testing Services?). Does ASCLD/LAB require proficiency samples and if so, are they required to be generated by an external source? Thanks for any info! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Thu Aug 8 11:16:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g78FG8v09321 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ascl-image.ascl.state.ar.us (ascl.state.ar.us [170.94.222.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g78FG7T09315 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ASCL-IMAGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:15:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Black, Ryan" To: "'John Goodpaster'" , Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: RE: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:15:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2041 ASCLD/LAB requires the lab to perform at least one external proficiency test annually in each functional area in which the lab performs services, if such a test is available. They maintain a list of approved providers. Additionally, they require each analyst to complete one proficiency test annually in each functional area in which they perform analyses, with certain exceptions made for analyses that are performed rarely (like certain analyses in trace evidence). Where a proficiency is not required, the procedures used should be properly validated. This is currently an "I" requirement, meaning that it is important but not essential. To achieve accreditation, each lab must comply with 75% of applicable "I" requirements. For DNA analysts the requirements are stricter, and the requirements are considered an "E" requirement, meaning that it is essential for accreditation. Ryan Black Arkansas State Crime Laboratory -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:46 AM To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Greetings, I'm curious about what organization currently generates proficiency samples for forensic science laboratories. I seem to recall that it was CTS at one point (I've forgotten what that stands for again? Collaborative Testing Services?). Does ASCLD/LAB require proficiency samples and if so, are they required to be generated by an external source? Thanks for any info! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Aug 8 18:48:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g78Mmxg16194 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78MmvT16188 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:48:57 -0400 Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:48:24 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Re. Case Posted Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:48:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2171 This is only semi-informed speculation, but I know that most carnivorous animals will not eat badly decomposed meat because they would suffer from some of the same gastrointestinal disorders we would if we ate it. Microbial flora alien to their digestive systems disrupt those systems and can also release poisonous toxins, both of which make the animals ill, so they quickly learn to avoid such meals. That may have been a factor in this case. However, some carrion-eating birds, rodents, and reptiles seem to be able to tolerate even the most vile examples of rotten meat, so it's puzzling to me that there was no evidence of any scavenging at all. Perhaps there simply were no true carrion-eaters in the vicinity. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 22:28 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re. Case Posted Importance: High In the case I was referring to the murder occurred in the night of May 13th-14th May and according to the confession the body was buried between the evening of May 14th to night of May 14th-15th. The remains were discovered in the morning of May 26th. The remains were teeming with maggots. It wasn't quite summer in the UK at the time, but it was certainly late spring to early summer in terms of temperatures and weather conditions. Nevertheless there was heavy rain on a couple of nights and thunder and lightening on one night. In t.his case wouldn't the production of volatile decomposition products be increased, thereby becoming more attractive to potential scavengers. In the above-mentioned case the remains was heavily infested with maggots. Under these circumstances would such remains be likely to attract potential scavengers such as foxes, etc.? Best Wishes Satish Sekar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Aug 8 19:25:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g78NPZs16776 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.227]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78NPXT16770 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g78MM9E0014610 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:25:31 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:25:30 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:23:25 -0700 From: "Geoff Bruton" To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Re. Case Posted MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 114C22611426815-01-02 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g78NPYT16771 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1266 Y'know, when I first read the piece about the maggot-infested flesh, I actually thought to myself, "Well, if I was a fox, I certainly wouldn't be eating _that_!" Seems like Bob & I agree - though his answer is more reasonable than mine! ;) Best wishes to all, -G. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section >>> "Robert Parsons" 08/08/02 03:48PM >>> This is only semi-informed speculation, but I know that most carnivorous animals will not eat badly decomposed meat because they would suffer from some of the same gastrointestinal disorders we would if we ate it. Microbial flora alien to their digestive systems disrupt those systems and can also release poisonous toxins, both of which make the animals ill, so they quickly learn to avoid such meals. That may have been a factor in this case. However, some carrion-eating birds, rodents, and reptiles seem to be able to tolerate even the most vile examples of rotten meat, so it's puzzling to me that there was no evidence of any scavenging at all. Perhaps there simply were no true carrion-eaters in the vicinity. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL From daemon Thu Aug 8 20:37:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g790bZr17846 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g790bXT17840 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.119]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020809003728.OHHD23840.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:37:28 +0100 Message-ID: <001401c23f3c$a80235e0$77c8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: "Forensic-Science@yahoogroups.com" Cc: Subject: Further Details on the Case Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:35:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g790bZs17846 Content-Length: 5124 There was not much rain in the whole period of the deceased's disappearance. Figures are given over a twenty-four hour period beginning at 10.00a.m. The period when there was most rainfall in the relevant period was the day before the body was discovered and that was half the amount of rainfall on the day the body was discovered. Please note that the body was discovered early in that 24 hour period, so very little rain would have fallen, although I am trying to get more accurate figures. The only other days when there was significant rainfall was the night of the murder, on May 20th and May 21st as well. The actual amount of rainfall in the period that the deceased was missing prior to the night before discovery was 8.3mm (excluding figures for the day the body was discovered). Of that 5.2mm was in the 24 hours up to 10.00a.m. on the day the body was discovered and 2.5mm in the 24 hours from 10.00a.m. on May 13th to 10.00a.m. on May 14th the night of the murder. The deceased was last seen alive in the night of May 13th-14th. In other words the most significant rainfall occurred between 10.00a.m. on May 13th to 10.00a.m. on May 14th and then between 10.00a.m. on May 25th and 10.00a.m. on May 26th. There was very significant rainfall between 10.00a.m. on May 26th and 10.00a.m. on May 27th. However, it must be remembered that the body was discovered in the morning of May 26th. I therefore think that there would not have been significant rainfall keeping the body submerged in the period up to the night before discovery of the body and that the rainfall cannot account for the lack of animal activity. It must be remembered that according to the confession the body was available to animal and birds in vegetation above ground for at least 21 hours. According to the confession the body was fresh at that time, albeit having been cooked. The question I pose is even if the confession is true in terms of timings of events, which I strongly doubt, why have no animals and birds fed on the remains in this period prior to burial as this was not a period when the body was putrified and unattractive to scavengers? In terms of significant weather the only report is that thunder occurred between 01.00a.m. on May 20th and 01.00a.m. on May 21st. There were no gales reported at any stage according to weather reports. The maximum and minimum temperatures were as follows: May 13th Max. 23.8 Min. 10.9 May 14th 23.6 14.8 May 15th 23.5 12.0 May 16th 21.0 7.4 May 17th 19.5 7.0 May 18th 20.0 5.4 May 19th 20.0 5.0 May 20th 22.5 5.5 May 21st 15.5 10.5 May 22nd 16.0 2.7 May 23rd 16.2 4.3 May 24th 19.5 9.6 May 25th 18.1 8.6 May 26th 16.5 11.0 N.b. May 26th not relevant as body discovered in morning. Similarly May 13th not relevant as disappearance occurred in night of May 13th-14th. Judging from temperatures it would appear that there was some significant sunshine in the period of the victim's disappearance without gales or significant rainfall. I'm no expert in this, but it appears to me that rainfall can be pretty well excluded as a means of keeping the body submerged and therefore inaccesible to scavengers for much of the period. The water table would not be so high as a result unless I have got this wrong. Consequently, the scent would not be dissipated unless I have got this completely wrong. It is my very strong suspicion that a significant event took place between nightfall on May 20th and 01.00 on May 21st as that is the only time when the weather conditions fit the description given in the confession. I suspect that this is when the body was partially burned as there is credible evidence suggesting that no new fire sites were at the scene of the burning before the morning of May 19th. A forensic pathologist has informed me that the maggots appear to be 3-5 days old (from photos of the remains) The evidence seems to be suggesting that something significant happened to the body in the period I mentioned. I suspect that there was a preliminary strike on the body by flies in the morning after the murder and that these maggots were destroyed by the fire. This may have also destroyed evidence of animal and/or bird activity, beginning the process again once the remains had cooled sufficiently. Even though the remains were found in a watery clay-like grave, the remains must have been above ground sufficiently long to allow a second strike by flies after the burning. Forensic entomologists will be examining the maggots soon. I hope that several issues can then be resolved. I hope that the maggots will be able to assist in determining when the body was buried. This may affect the issue of the lack of animal or bird activity. Best Wishes Satish --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Aug 8 20:41:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g790fp918064 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g790foT18058 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.119]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020809004147.OKZZ23840.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:41:47 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01c23f3d$4223e9c0$77c8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: "Robert Parsons" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Re. Case Posted Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:39:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2554 There were foxes, badgers, rats, mice, crows, magpies and jays in the area. Best Wishes Satish ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Parsons" To: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:48 PM Subject: RE: Re. Case Posted > This is only semi-informed speculation, but I know that most carnivorous > animals will not eat badly decomposed meat because they would suffer from > some of the same gastrointestinal disorders we would if we ate it. > Microbial flora alien to their digestive systems disrupt those systems and > can also release poisonous toxins, both of which make the animals ill, so > they quickly learn to avoid such meals. That may have been a factor in this > case. However, some carrion-eating birds, rodents, and reptiles seem to be > able to tolerate even the most vile examples of rotten meat, so it's > puzzling to me that there was no evidence of any scavenging at all. Perhaps > there simply were no true carrion-eaters in the vicinity. > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC > Forensic Chemist > Regional Crime Laboratory > at Indian River Community College > Ft. Pierce, FL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 22:28 > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re. Case Posted > Importance: High > > > In the case I was referring to the murder occurred in the night of May > 13th-14th May and according to the confession the body was buried between > the evening of May 14th to night of May 14th-15th. The remains were > discovered in the morning of May 26th. The remains were teeming with > maggots. It wasn't quite summer in the UK at the time, but it was certainly > late spring to early summer in terms of temperatures and weather conditions. > Nevertheless there was heavy rain on a couple of nights and thunder and > lightening on one night. In t.his case wouldn't the production of volatile > decomposition products be increased, thereby becoming more attractive to > potential scavengers. > > In the above-mentioned case the remains was heavily infested with maggots. > Under these circumstances would such remains be likely to attract potential > scavengers such as foxes, etc.? > > Best Wishes > > Satish Sekar > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Thu Aug 8 21:00:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7910vD18556 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bcpl.net (mail.bcpl.net [204.255.212.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7910uT18550 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:00:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cdefine@localhost) by mail.bcpl.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g7910pT11017; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:00:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:00:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdefine@mail To: Geoff Bruton cc: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us, Subject: RE: Re. Case Posted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2112 Another thing to think about is that there was only a 21 hour period where the body was exposed to animals/birds. But this was after the body had already been burned and mutilated. With a corpse in that condition, I wonder if it would even be possible to identify animal/bird feeding on the body. Besides 21 hours is not a very great window of time to allow for animals/birds to get to it, and perhaps with cooler temperatures, the body did not get preyed upon extensively, or be noticeable given the condition. For the record, I will acknowledge that crows will eat anything...I've thrown out some pretty nasty stuff from my refrigerator, and the crows love it! Satish, you did not say what the mutilation involved...can you say? Carol On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Geoff Bruton wrote: > > Y'know, when I first read the piece about the maggot-infested flesh, I actually thought to myself, "Well, if I was a fox, I certainly wouldn't be eating _that_!" > > Seems like Bob & I agree - though his answer is more reasonable than mine! ;) > > Best wishes to all, > -G. > > Geoff Bruton > Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory > Firearms & Toolmarks Section > > >>> "Robert Parsons" 08/08/02 03:48PM >>> > This is only semi-informed speculation, but I know that most carnivorous > animals will not eat badly decomposed meat because they would suffer from > some of the same gastrointestinal disorders we would if we ate it. > Microbial flora alien to their digestive systems disrupt those systems and > can also release poisonous toxins, both of which make the animals ill, so > they quickly learn to avoid such meals. That may have been a factor in this > case. However, some carrion-eating birds, rodents, and reptiles seem to be > able to tolerate even the most vile examples of rotten meat, so it's > puzzling to me that there was no evidence of any scavenging at all. Perhaps > there simply were no true carrion-eaters in the vicinity. > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC > Forensic Chemist > Regional Crime Laboratory > at Indian River Community College > Ft. Pierce, FL > > > > From daemon Thu Aug 8 21:09:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7919W518843 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-3.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-44.outblaze.com [205.158.62.44]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7919VT18837 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-2.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-62.outblaze.com [205.158.62.62]) by mta1-3.us4.outblaze.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/us4-srs) with SMTP id g7919O3G002503 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:09:27 GMT Received: (qmail 27808 invoked by uid 0); 9 Aug 2002 01:00:27 -0000 MBOX-Line: From owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu Thu Aug 08 13:52:49 2002 Received: (qmail 898 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2002 13:52:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spf12.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.36) by 205-158-62-62.outblaze.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2002 13:52:49 -0000 Received: from spf8.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-35.outblaze.com [205.158.62.35]) by spf12.us4.outblaze.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/us4-yg) with ESMTP id g78DqmAE007987 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:52:48 GMT Received: from xprdmx6.nwk.excite.com (nat34.excitenetwork.com [63.236.75.82]) by spf8.us4.outblaze.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g78DqlT30512 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:52:48 GMT Received: from xprdmailbe30.nwk.excite.com (xprdmailbe30.nwk.excite.com [10.50.30.182]) by xprdmx6.nwk.excite.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 07C9F183F5 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11657 invoked by uid 110); 8 Aug 2002 13:52:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 11655 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2002 13:52:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO xprdmx4.nwk.excite.com) ([10.50.30.25]) (envelope-sender ) by 0 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 8 Aug 2002 13:52:39 -0000 Received: by xprdmx4.nwk.excite.com (Postfix) id 2F8F217F92; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) by xprdmx4.nwk.excite.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E4917FA0; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g78DpmZ07732; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:23 -0400 Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g78DpNk07694 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.nist.gov (email.nist.gov [129.6.2.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78DpMT07685 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goodpaster (h179112.nist.gov [129.6.179.112]) by email.nist.gov (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g78DpLps017667 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20020808094230.00b18140@mailserver.nist.gov> X-Sender: jgoodpas@mailserver.nist.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:46:27 -0400 To: Forensic Science Mailing List From: John Goodpaster Subject: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 770 Greetings, I'm curious about what organization currently generates proficiency samples for forensic science laboratories. I seem to recall that it was CTS at one point (I've forgotten what that stands for again? Collaborative Testing Services?). Does ASCLD/LAB require proficiency samples and if so, are they required to be generated by an external source? Thanks for any info! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Thu Aug 8 21:21:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g791L3N19691 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g791L2T19685 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.196.1]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020809012059.HTDP5047.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 02:20:59 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01c23f42$bc1e77e0$01c4fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: "Carol Define MD" Cc: Subject: Mutilation Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 02:18:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 5 X-MSMail-Priority: Low X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g791L3O19691 Content-Length: 522 Carol, Both arms were severed along the humerus. One leg was severed along the femur and the face was mutilated from the top of the nose through to the lower jaws. The limbs were placed beside the rest of the remains in the grave. It was established that the deceased had been stabbed several times, some of which had gone through bones. This was in addition to the mutilation. Best Wishes Satish --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Aug 9 06:46:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g79Ak8Z28337 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from troopers.state.ny.us ([161.11.133.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g79Ak6T28331 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NYSPGATE-Message_Server by troopers.state.ny.us with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:45:59 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:45:27 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us, Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Re. Case Posted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g79Ak7T28332 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2698 What, no lions, tigers and bears? A little Friday humor.... >>> "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" 08/08 8:39 PM >>> There were foxes, badgers, rats, mice, crows, magpies and jays in the area. Best Wishes Satish ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Parsons" To: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:48 PM Subject: RE: Re. Case Posted > This is only semi-informed speculation, but I know that most carnivorous > animals will not eat badly decomposed meat because they would suffer from > some of the same gastrointestinal disorders we would if we ate it. > Microbial flora alien to their digestive systems disrupt those systems and > can also release poisonous toxins, both of which make the animals ill, so > they quickly learn to avoid such meals. That may have been a factor in this > case. However, some carrion-eating birds, rodents, and reptiles seem to be > able to tolerate even the most vile examples of rotten meat, so it's > puzzling to me that there was no evidence of any scavenging at all. Perhaps > there simply were no true carrion-eaters in the vicinity. > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC > Forensic Chemist > Regional Crime Laboratory > at Indian River Community College > Ft. Pierce, FL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 22:28 > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re. Case Posted > Importance: High > > > In the case I was referring to the murder occurred in the night of May > 13th-14th May and according to the confession the body was buried between > the evening of May 14th to night of May 14th-15th. The remains were > discovered in the morning of May 26th. The remains were teeming with > maggots. It wasn't quite summer in the UK at the time, but it was certainly > late spring to early summer in terms of temperatures and weather conditions. > Nevertheless there was heavy rain on a couple of nights and thunder and > lightening on one night. In t.his case wouldn't the production of volatile > decomposition products be increased, thereby becoming more attractive to > potential scavengers. > > In the above-mentioned case the remains was heavily infested with maggots. > Under these circumstances would such remains be likely to attract potential > scavengers such as foxes, etc.? > > Best Wishes > > Satish Sekar > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Fri Aug 9 08:01:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g79C1wB29388 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch011.westchestergov.com (Cow.westchestergov.com [163.151.0.253]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79C1qT29382 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exch011.westchestergov.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:01:51 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Lakhkar, Bharat" To: "'John Goodpaster'" , Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: RE: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:01:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1480 If you go to the site of ASCLD/LAB you will see a list of all the proficiency providers approved by ASCLD/LAB. One of the accreditation criteria of ASCLD/LAB is that you must do at least one proficiency in each discipline ( e.g. Trace,Drugs,DNA,Toxicology etc. )per year, from an "approved" proficiency provider, if available. In DNA as per DAB guidelines each examiner has to take two external proficiencies every year ( not separated by more than 183 days ). Bharat Lakhkar, F-ABC -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 9:46 AM To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Greetings, I'm curious about what organization currently generates proficiency samples for forensic science laboratories. I seem to recall that it was CTS at one point (I've forgotten what that stands for again? Collaborative Testing Services?). Does ASCLD/LAB require proficiency samples and if so, are they required to be generated by an external source? Thanks for any info! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Fri Aug 9 08:56:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g79Cu9A00459 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79Cu7T00451 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.253.80.26]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020809125605.DTS13709.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:56:05 +0100 Message-ID: <003201c23fa3$d59ab420$1a50fd3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "Forensic-Science@yahoogroups.com" , "Ellen Bishop" Subject: shed skin cells in dust Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:53:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g79Cu9B00459 Content-Length: 473 I received the following post from Ellen Bishop. If anyone can help her please reply to her. Thanks in advance. Best Wishes Satish I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with a reference that states that dust comprised primarily of shed epithelial cells. I need this source for a thesis project I'm working on. Thanks Ellen Bishop --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Sun Aug 11 08:23:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7BCNDk02058 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7BCNBT02052 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216-164-58-30.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com ([216.164.58.30] helo=BART.starpower.net) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #6) id 17drkL-0006C6-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:23:02 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20020811080113.00b349e8@pop.rcn.com> X-Sender: johnfrench@pop.rcn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:23:35 -0400 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: John French Subject: Experienced M.D. Looking for Work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 569 Sorry if this is off-topic, but it is a good opportunity for someone. A friend of a colleague is new to the U.S. He is an M.D. from Bolivia specializing in Forensic/Legal medicine, whose credentials are as impressive as his grasp of the English language is poor. He needs work, with an employer willing to sponsor him. His experience includes many autopsies, homicide, suicide, accident investigations, etc., etc. (He is not licensed in the U.S.) Anyone wanting to contact him or get more information can email me off-list. John French johnfrench@starpower.net From daemon Mon Aug 12 12:17:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7CGHXE22100 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.nist.gov (email.nist.gov [129.6.2.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CGHWT22094 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goodpaster (h179112.nist.gov [129.6.179.112]) by email.nist.gov (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g7CGHWMe011577 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20020812105929.00b2c5c0@mailserver.nist.gov> X-Sender: jgoodpas@mailserver.nist.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:12:34 -0400 To: Forensic Science Mailing List From: John Goodpaster Subject: Re: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 539 Greetings, I just want say thanks to all who responded to my query re:proficiency samples. As always, I appreciate the collective wisdom of the list! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Mon Aug 12 12:45:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7CGj5P22786 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CGj3T22780 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:45:05 -0400 Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:44:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: RE: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:44:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4127 There are numerous proficiency test providers for forensic labs, but Collaborative Testing Service is probably the best known and most widely used. They provide a wider variety of forensic test samples than any other commercial firm I know of. CTS provides a convenient "single source" for most of the PT samples needed by the typical crime lab, and offers them at very competitive prices. However, CTS has its critics, and proficiency samples of various kinds are available (and utilized) from a wide variety of other sources, including government regulatory agencies. For example, in many states in order to perform legal blood alcohol determinations you must be licensed by the state, and to hold such a license you must participate in regular blood alcohol proficiency testing administered by the state (some states manufacture their PT samples in-house, others contract with commercial manufacturers). ASCLD-LAB proficiency testing guidelines from the 2000 Accreditation Manual: "Essential" criteria: A documented program of regular proficiency testing is required. The laboratory must participate in at least one external PT annually for each discipline performed by the lab (one per discipline, not one per examiner), if an applicable PT test is available from external sources; additional PTs may be internal. The external PT must be administered by a provider approved in advance by ASCLD-LAB. Each of the lab's examiners must successfully complete at least one external or internal PT in each of his or her major disciplines, the results of which can not be known to them until after they complete the test. PT samples must be representative of the kinds of samples normally analyzed in routine casework. Each DNA analyst must participate in _two_ PTs annually (per SWGDAM guidelines), one of which must be an external PT from an ASCLD-LAB-approved provider. If more than one DNA analysis technique is used (i.e., RFLP and PCR), at least one PT must be completed using each technique annually. "Important" criteria: Each examiner should perform at least one proficiency test annually for each SUB-specialty they do casework in (e.g., if a trace analyst works both glass and fiber evidence cases, they should be tested annually in both glass and fiber analysis). It is recognized that some sub-disciplines may be performed only very rarely, and an annual PT is not required for these so long as analytical procedures are properly validated (this is a subjective area, and inspectors decide which sub-disciplines require annual testing and which do not, based on the lab's own usual services). At least one PT annually for each discipline offered by the lab should be conducted using either blind or re-examination techniques. Labs must comply with 100% of "essential" criteria, and 75% of "important" criteria, in order to achieve and maintain ASCLD-LAB accreditation. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 09:46 To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Greetings, I'm curious about what organization currently generates proficiency samples for forensic science laboratories. I seem to recall that it was CTS at one point (I've forgotten what that stands for again? Collaborative Testing Services?). Does ASCLD/LAB require proficiency samples and if so, are they required to be generated by an external source? Thanks for any info! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Aug 12 13:06:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7CH6Lo23347 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.99]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CH6KT23341 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ReddJin@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.51.22413d44 (16110) for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m23.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.139]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID122-0812130611; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:06:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:00:50 -0400 From: ReddJin@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Curriculum Vita Attached. Message-ID: <00831B3B.34750409.00198C78@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 371 Attached is my personal curriculum vita. My plans are to relocated from my current location soon. If anyone has knowledge of a position that my credentials might render me eligible, please feel free to contact me by email or otherwise. R. Hooks --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/msword --- From daemon Mon Aug 12 13:46:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7CHkQc24142 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CHkPT24136 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from h7f5w7 ([12.246.184.34]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020812174625.JGKN19356.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@h7f5w7> for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:46:25 +0000 Message-ID: <001801c24228$3e5247e0$0100000a@attbi.com> From: "John Bowden" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:46:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5009 But who makes up the proficiency samples for CTS? Unless the policy has changed they don't do it themselves. It generally is done by anonymous contributors. In the past as the Chemistry Program Manager for the California DOJ, California Criminalistics Institute, I was responsible for manufacturing a number of the controlled substance proficiency samples. I know that my colleagues prepared samples for other specialties. John P. Bowden Forensic Consultant "Dum Spiro Spero" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Parsons" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 9:44 AM Subject: RE: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? > There are numerous proficiency test providers for forensic labs, but > Collaborative Testing Service is probably the best known and most widely > used. They provide a wider variety of forensic test samples than any other > commercial firm I know of. CTS provides a convenient "single source" for > most of the PT samples needed by the typical crime lab, and offers them at > very competitive prices. However, CTS has its critics, and proficiency > samples of various kinds are available (and utilized) from a wide variety of > other sources, including government regulatory agencies. For example, in > many states in order to perform legal blood alcohol determinations you must > be licensed by the state, and to hold such a license you must participate in > regular blood alcohol proficiency testing administered by the state (some > states manufacture their PT samples in-house, others contract with > commercial manufacturers). > > ASCLD-LAB proficiency testing guidelines from the 2000 Accreditation Manual: > > "Essential" criteria: A documented program of regular proficiency testing > is required. The laboratory must participate in at least one external PT > annually for each discipline performed by the lab (one per discipline, not > one per examiner), if an applicable PT test is available from external > sources; additional PTs may be internal. The external PT must be > administered by a provider approved in advance by ASCLD-LAB. Each of the > lab's examiners must successfully complete at least one external or internal > PT in each of his or her major disciplines, the results of which can not be > known to them until after they complete the test. PT samples must be > representative of the kinds of samples normally analyzed in routine > casework. Each DNA analyst must participate in _two_ PTs annually (per > SWGDAM guidelines), one of which must be an external PT from an > ASCLD-LAB-approved provider. If more than one DNA analysis technique is > used (i.e., RFLP and PCR), at least one PT must be completed using each > technique annually. > > "Important" criteria: Each examiner should perform at least one proficiency > test annually for each SUB-specialty they do casework in (e.g., if a trace > analyst works both glass and fiber evidence cases, they should be tested > annually in both glass and fiber analysis). It is recognized that some > sub-disciplines may be performed only very rarely, and an annual PT is not > required for these so long as analytical procedures are properly validated > (this is a subjective area, and inspectors decide which sub-disciplines > require annual testing and which do not, based on the lab's own usual > services). At least one PT annually for each discipline offered by the lab > should be conducted using either blind or re-examination techniques. > > Labs must comply with 100% of "essential" criteria, and 75% of "important" > criteria, in order to achieve and maintain ASCLD-LAB accreditation. > > Bob Parsons, F-ABC > Forensic Chemist > Regional Crime Laboratory > at Indian River Community College > Ft. Pierce, FL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 09:46 > To: Forensic Science Mailing List > Subject: Who generates the proficiency samples for FS laboratories? > > > Greetings, > > I'm curious about what organization currently generates proficiency samples > for forensic science laboratories. I seem to recall that it was CTS at one > point (I've forgotten what that stands for again? Collaborative Testing > Services?). Does ASCLD/LAB require proficiency samples and if so, are they > required to be generated by an external source? > > Thanks for any info! > > John Goodpaster > > > ******************************************************** > John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. > Analytical Chemistry Division > National Institute of Standards and Technology > 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 > Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 > > Phone: (301) 975-3142 > FAX: (301) 977-0685 > e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov > ******************************************************** > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Wed Aug 14 21:55:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7F1tNO10149 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postino4.prima.com.ar (postino4.prima.com.ar [200.42.0.162]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7F1tKT10143 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 35617 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2002 01:55:01 -0000 Received: from a200042111009.rev.prima.com.ar (HELO fito) (200.42.111.9) by postino4.prima.com.ar with SMTP; 15 Aug 2002 01:55:01 -0000 Message-ID: <004e01c24400$7cd94de0$0100007f@fito> From: "Adolfo Scatena" To: "forens" Subject: Children depositions Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:05:30 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g7F1tNP10149 Content-Length: 427 En blancoI been asked by a psycologist if there any accepted or established standars of credibility regarding children depositions as witness of crimens. Any help will be welcome. Dr. Adolfo Scatena Medico Forense 2ª Circunsc Judicial Gral Roca, Rio Negro ARGENTINA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif --- From daemon Fri Aug 16 09:52:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GDqTQ01467 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GDqSb01461 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:52:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from [] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1171 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:05:35 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from [] >From forens-owner Thu Aug 8 08:05:34 2002 Received: from pilot02.cl.msu.edu (pilot02.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.22]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78C5XT05764 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msu.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by pilot02.cl.msu.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g78C5Rp88672; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:05:27 -0400 Message-Id: <200208081205.g78C5Rp88672@pilot02.cl.msu.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:05:27 EDT To: Carol Define MD , "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" Subject: shed skin cells in dust From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.0 Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with a reference that states that dust comprised primarily of shed epithelial cells. I need this source for a thesis project I'm working on. Thanks Ellen Bishop From daemon Fri Aug 16 09:53:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GDrBx01505 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GDrBK01499 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:53:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1613 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:52 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] >From forens-owner Thu Aug 8 14:09:51 2002 Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78I9lT11948 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ivfu3g.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.248.112] helo=oemcomputer) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17crj7-0004rT-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Member" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" Subject: Forensic nurse? Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:07:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Has anyone out there heard of a forensic nurse? I heard a woman on the radio here this morning claiming to be one and I have never heard of it - and can't find any references to such a profession. What is it? Thanks! Catten From daemon Fri Aug 16 09:58:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GDwa102205 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from usacil2.army.mil (usacil2.forscom.army.mil [160.136.216.9]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GDwZe02191 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by usacil2.forscom.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:59:13 -0400 Message-ID: <8782B20DF1F90C4FA5FF5A6787F0CA0305D580@usacil2.forscom.army.mil> From: "Tamburini, Ned" To: "'Basten'" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] (fwd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:59:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2394 Why yes it is a valid forensic specialty. I have a number of close friends involved in forensic nursing. Most are Sexual Assault Nurse Examiners (SANEs). Check out the International Association of Forensic Nurses (IAFN) web site at www.forensicnurse.org. Edmund D. "Ned" Tamburini SA 3936, Forensic Science Coordinator US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory (USACIL) 4553 N. 2nd Street, Bldg 213B Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 Phone: 404-469-7490 Fax: 404-469-3489 Email: tamburinin@usacil-acirs.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Basten [mailto:cbasten@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:53 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:52 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] >From forens-owner Thu Aug 8 14:09:51 2002 Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78I9lT11948 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ivfu3g.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.248.112] helo=oemcomputer) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17crj7-0004rT-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Member" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" Subject: Forensic nurse? Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:07:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Has anyone out there heard of a forensic nurse? I heard a woman on the radio here this morning claiming to be one and I have never heard of it - and can't find any references to such a profession. What is it? Thanks! Catten From daemon Fri Aug 16 10:33:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GEXS503320 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GEXR503314 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:33:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: RE: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2480 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:02:51 -0400 From: "Barnes, Andra" To: Basten Subject: RE: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] (fwd) Here is a website that could provide some info on the forensic nursing question. It is a discipline i am investigating myself, and hope to get started into soon. Andra Barnes, RN Environmental, Safety, Health Manager Lexington Home Brands Plant 11 abarnes@lexington.com http://www.amrn.com/aboutus.htm -----Original Message----- From: Basten [mailto:cbasten@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:53 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:52 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ] >From forens-owner Thu Aug 8 14:09:51 2002 Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78I9lT11948 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ivfu3g.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.248.112] helo=oemcomputer) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17crj7-0004rT-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Member" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" Subject: Forensic nurse? Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:07:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Has anyone out there heard of a forensic nurse? I heard a woman on the radio here this morning claiming to be one and I have never heard of it - and can't find any references to such a profession. What is it? Thanks! Catten From daemon Fri Aug 16 10:35:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GEZJ203722 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GEZI503716 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Super-User To: Subject: Re: RE: Re. Case Posted (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1377 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:51:49 -0600 From: maria guzman To: Super-User Subject: Re: RE: Re. Case Posted FWIW may I mention the numerous (and ongoing) cases of animal mutilation where no insect activity is seen, even when such deaths are known or thought to have occurred some days previously. I would hold no opinion at all if my husband and two teenage children had not come across such while walking in the Montana mountain open range not far from where we lived. The 3 heifers were extremely dead (!) with eyeballs, tongues, udders and anus cored out as if by laser. My husband's greatest impression was with the lack of blood and total absence of flies or other predation. This was in midsummer when the days are long and temperatures are hot. Coyote country. Another similar case occurred just a few miles from us on a ranch in Northern California several years ago. It was reported in detail in the weekly newspaper. Maria Guzman >This is only semi-informed speculation, but I know that most carnivorous >animals will not eat badly decomposed meat because they would suffer from >some of the same gastrointestinal disorders we would if we ate it. Bob Parsons, F-ABC >Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory >at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL From daemon Fri Aug 16 10:53:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GErLO04637 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:53:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GErKe04631 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LisaLegalNurse@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.d4.1bd79465 (16335) for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:53:13 -0400 (EDT) From: LisaLegalNurse@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:53:13 EDT Subject: Fwd: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Member" ... To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10516 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 123 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) message/rfc822 --- From daemon Fri Aug 16 13:02:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GH2vY08459 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f53.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.53]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GH2ue08445 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:02:55 -0700 Received: from 209.245.232.28 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:02:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.245.232.28] From: "John Lyons" To: cbasten@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Forensic Nurses Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:02:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2002 17:02:55.0238 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3A7DA60:01C24546] Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 787 In Texas we use forensic nurses during rape examinations. These examinations are conducted on child and adult sexual assault victims. The nurses are taught the correct procedures for photographing, documenting, collecting, and storing of evidence. In some rural communities they transport the collected evidence directly to the crime labs. This program has been very valuable in getting evidence obtained during these exams admitted into court. The program has expanded from hospitals to our Child Advocacy Centers across the state. John B. Lyons Criminal Investigator County Attorney's Office Johnson County, Texas johnblyons@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Fri Aug 16 13:46:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GHkoH09666 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GHkne09660 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.197.177]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020816174647.BBWP13709.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:46:47 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c2454c$9a8f2a60$b1c5fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "Maria Guzman" Subject: Animal & Insect Activity Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:44:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g7GHkoI09666 Content-Length: 412 In the case I mentioned in my posts was the other way round. There was insect activity, but no sign of animal activity. The body was teeming with maggots, but there was no apparent sign of animal or bird activity. It was the lack of the latter that I found surprising. Best Wishes Satish --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Aug 16 15:04:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7GJ4JA11614 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GJ4IF11608 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:04:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Eschenberg Investigation" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1872 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:22:57 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Eschenberg Investigation" ] >From forens-owner Fri Aug 16 13:22:55 2002 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GHMse09123 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sdn-ap-014caburbp0191.dialsprint.net ([63.191.8.191] helo=default) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17fkoG-0005oz-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:22:53 -0700 Message-ID: <00f301c24549$5d36d940$9710b83f@default> Reply-To: "Eschenberg Investigation" From: "Eschenberg Investigation" To: Subject: Facial Recognition Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:21:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Group, Is anyone aware of an "expert" in the practice of facial = recognition, with the software to do this type of analysis between a K = (standard) image and a series of Qs. We are looking to determine if the = subject depicted in each of the images is actually the same individual. = Reply privately if you choose. Thanks! Jay Eschenberg Albuquerque, NM --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Sat Aug 17 18:16:49 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7HMGnT29410 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7HMGme29404 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Arizpaul@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.ce.2b271890 (4552) for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:16:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Arizpaul@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:16:40 EDT Subject: FTIR of rat baits To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 491 Is there a recommended cleanup for the super rat poisons and warfarin to acquire ATR spectra by FTIR since they yield no gc-ms without derivatization. The HPLC rodenticide methods were too time consuming and less specific- We don't have LC-MS. Will the starch and other additives just drop out with a basic extraction,? I will try next week, but some prelim info would be helpful. thanks I don't think pesticides are in our new FTIR drug library. Paul arizpaul@aol.com F&D Chemist From daemon Sat Aug 17 23:26:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7I3QCq02666 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ethfrvs.eth.net (mail10.eth.net [202.9.145.41] (may be forged)) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7I3Q7e02660 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-23 ([202.9.178.23]) by ethfrvs.eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:00:05 +0530 Received: from 202.9.167.74 by smtp-23 (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:50:21 +0530 Message-ID: <001401c24668$2b5f3c80$4aa709ca@eth.net> From: "Dr Zachariah" To: "Forensics" Subject: formic acid poisoning Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:58:13 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 03:30:05.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B29E670:01C24667] X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g7I3QCr02666 Content-Length: 348 dear list, why is it that in cases of formic acid poisoning, there is almost no blood seen during autopsy? this we see even if the aotupsy is done within 6 hrs after death has occured. thanks in advance --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Sun Aug 18 11:30:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7IFUML09283 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7IFUKe09277 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (unknown [203.200.121.80]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB9140DFF; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:03:16 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3D5FAD69.A46BAC4F@vsnl.net> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:51:29 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Cc: gwbrown@ieee.org Subject: Slow healing bruises Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2602 Dear List, I received the following note from a gentleman named Gordon W. Brown. His Email is gwbrown@ieee.org Could somebody help him please? I would also like to know the answers. Thanks Anil Aggrawal. Here goes Gordon's note: ********* I happened accross your note on slow healing bruises. On 21 May I fell climbing at Hell's Gate in Kenya. Sustained a crush injury to my calf (along with a concussion). The same day I used an exercise bike, to help maintain circulation. I also stood on the edge of a book and rose up and down, also attempting to maintain circulation. I had the sense of something "going" and my ankle and foot started swelling (over 24 hours after the injury). I had doppler ultrasound which showed patency. Two months later I still have yellow bruise on my ankle. Measurement of calf and ankle are still slowly going down. I am cycling every other day and that is helping, but that was paused to travel to USA to visit grandchildren. I am 62 years old. I'm not too worried, but am puzzled as to why it's taking so long for the bruise to clear. I understand that venous return valves may be stuck open, but two months seems somewhat long. It is still getting (very slowly) better, especially now that I'm biking again. Thought you would like the "data". Yours sincerely, Gordon W. Brown, Ph.D ********** Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Mon Aug 19 08:45:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7JCj5l22265 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7JCj4S22259 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:45:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1433 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:01:01 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] >From forens-owner Sun Aug 18 22:01:00 2002 Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7J20ue15759 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Mon Aug 19 14:00:49 2002 +1200 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:00:48 +1200 Message-ID: From: "Buckleton, John" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: eyesight Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:00:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain May I ask the list whether they had any eyesight requirements in Physical Evidence, toolmarks or firearms for: 1. recruitment 2. established staff. I would be interested in those who had AND those who had none. :-) Johnny Appleseed Buckleton ESR PB 92021 Auckland New Zealand Ph. +64 +9 8153-904 Fax +64 +9 8496-046 Good planets are hard to find From daemon Mon Aug 19 08:45:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7JCjV222289 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7JCjVX22283 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:45:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1721 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:10:25 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] >From forens-owner Fri Aug 16 15:10:24 2002 Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7GJANe12065 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Sat Aug 17 07:10:22 2002 +1200 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 07:10:22 +1200 Message-ID: From: "Buckleton, John" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Postings Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 07:10:21 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Training in Population Genetics and Statistics for Forensic Science > > 1. Internet Course taught by Bruce Weir, NC State University. > Three hours graduate credit. Class runs from later August to early > December. > Look for ST610C at http://distance.ncsu.edu > > 2. Three-day workshop taught by John Buckleton and Bruce Weir > Trinity College, Dublin. December 11-13, 2002. > Look at http://statgen.ncsu.edu > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------- > From daemon Mon Aug 19 11:00:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7JF0TX26667 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hbpdmail01.surfcity-hb.org ([64.240.232.235]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7JF0Re26659 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by HBPDMAIL01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:00:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3D8B72928052D211B17700A0C9DEEFE001044EC4@HBPDMAIL01> From: "Breyer, Chris" To: "'Dr Zachariah'" , Forensics Subject: RE: formic acid poisoning Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:00:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 639 Would formic acid poisoning be brought about by ant (or other insect) sting/bites? Chris Breyer Sr. Criminalist Huntington Beach PD -----Original Message----- From: Dr Zachariah [mailto:drzach@eth.net] Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:28 PM To: Forensics Subject: formic acid poisoning dear list, why is it that in cases of formic acid poisoning, there is almost no blood seen during autopsy? this we see even if the aotupsy is done within 6 hrs after death has occured. thanks in advance --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Aug 19 15:08:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7JJ8JE04115 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7JJ8He04109 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LamarM@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.7c.2cb33393 (3972) for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:08:09 -0400 (EDT) From: LamarM@aol.com Message-ID: <7c.2cb33393.2a929c19@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:08:09 EDT Subject: New Interim Director of Alabama Dept. of Forensic Sciences To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10513 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2029 Colleagues, I thought some of you would be interested in the following new release. Regards, Lamar Miller, Forensic Document Examiner, Little Torch Key, Florida, Formerly with the Alabama Lab Noggle named interim forensics department chief The Associated Press 8/19/02 11:52 AM BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) -- A 31-year veteran of the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences was named interim director of the agency Monday while a nationwide search for a permanent chief continues. Taylor Noggle Jr., the agency's deputy director for laboratory services since 1998, stepped in while a replacement for Dr. James Upshaw Downs is conducted, Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor announced. Upshaw Downs resigned in June after announcing a $2.2 million budget shortfall. "(Noggle) is well-qualified by long years of exemplary service and extensive experience within the department," Pryor said in a written statement. The attorney general, who appoints the director, scheduled a news conference in Birmingham to make the announcement. Noggle, who has training in chemistry and a master's degree from Auburn-Montgomery, is a specialist in processing clandestine drug laboratories. Noggle acknowledged the agency's budget woes but said he would work closely with Pryor, district attorneys and law enforcement agencies to make progress. "I know that Alabama has one of the most dedicated and competent forensic staffs in the country," he said. Downs' resignation came within days after he notified law enforcement officials of cutbacks that take effect Oct. 1. The cutbacks include closing regional labs, reducing staff and discontinuing transporting bodies to crime labs. Downs said he had been considering a job change before the budget problems, but they "made a difficult decision easier." Pryor said he will appoint a committee to conduct a nationwide search for a permanent director. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Aug 19 21:36:26 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7K1aPZ10281 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-3.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-44.outblaze.com [205.158.62.44]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7K1aNe10275 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-1.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-61.outblaze.com [205.158.62.61]) by mta1-3.us4.outblaze.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/us4-srs) with SMTP id g7K1aM3G028011 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:36:23 GMT Received: (qmail 6645 invoked by uid 0); 20 Aug 2002 01:00:34 -0000 MBOX-Line: From owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu Mon Aug 19 15:01:37 2002 Received: (qmail 23924 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 15:01:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spf12.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.36) by 205-158-62-61.outblaze.com with SMTP; 19 Aug 2002 15:01:36 -0000 Received: from spf6.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-33.outblaze.com [205.158.62.33]) by spf12.us4.outblaze.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/us4-yg) with ESMTP id g7JF1e3f011456 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:01:40 GMT Received: from xprdmx7.nwk.excite.com (nat20.excitenetwork.com [63.236.75.68]) by spf6.us4.outblaze.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JF1d568584 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:01:40 GMT Received: from xprdmailbe50.nwk.excite.com (xprdmailbe50.nwk.excite.com [10.50.30.205]) by xprdmx7.nwk.excite.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DD7118024 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23909 invoked by uid 110); 19 Aug 2002 15:01:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 23907 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 15:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO xprdmx20.nwk.excite.com) ([10.50.30.96]) (envelope-sender ) by 0 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Aug 2002 15:01:30 -0000 Received: by xprdmx20.nwk.excite.com (Postfix) id 0552517F7A; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) by xprdmx20.nwk.excite.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C6117FA8; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7JF0mj26703; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:29 -0400 Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7JF0TX26667 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hbpdmail01.surfcity-hb.org ([64.240.232.235]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7JF0Re26659 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by HBPDMAIL01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:00:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3D8B72928052D211B17700A0C9DEEFE001044EC4@HBPDMAIL01> From: "Breyer, Chris" To: "'Dr Zachariah'" , Forensics Subject: RE: formic acid poisoning Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:00:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 640 Would formic acid poisoning be brought about by ant (or other insect) sting/bites? Chris Breyer Sr. Criminalist Huntington Beach PD -----Original Message----- From: Dr Zachariah [mailto:drzach@eth.net] Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:28 PM To: Forensics Subject: formic acid poisoning dear list, why is it that in cases of formic acid poisoning, there is almost no blood seen during autopsy? this we see even if the aotupsy is done within 6 hrs after death has occured. thanks in advance --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Aug 20 10:21:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7KELZc20308 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web9808.mail.yahoo.com (web9808.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.34]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7KELYe20302 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20020820142131.31312.qmail@web9808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.159.230.133] by web9808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:21:31 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:21:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Earth Bound Subject: Advice on College Programs / Majors To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 786 I am currently a high school senior who would like to pursue a career in the field of forensics. What I would like to do specifically, I am unsure. What I would appreciate though, is some advice concerning programs that colleges offer. I have been told by some scientists in a forensic lab on Guam that it would be better if I received a bachelors in either chemistry or biology and then went on to obtain a masters in forensic science, as opposed to majoring in forensic science itself. I was hoping that I could get some feedback from other scientists working within this field as well. Any advice is much appreciated. Many Thanks, Megan Jones __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From daemon Tue Aug 20 10:59:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7KExkC21240 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7KExje21234 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TTHOM2@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.3d.22ea2cac (15877) for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m18.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.134]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID74-0820105945; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:59:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:00:19 -0400 From: TTHOM2@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: burnt hair analysis Message-ID: <64E598D1.38F7B41E.0004FB0A@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 299 We have some hairs submitted from a victim's hand that appear to be burnt. Is there anyone that knows of or can do analysis on burnt hair? Thank You. Tracey Thompson Trace Evidence Analyst Sedgwick County Regional Forensic Science Center 1109 N. Minneapolis St Wichita, Kansas 67214 316-383-4500 From daemon Tue Aug 20 12:05:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7KG5m522886 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.227]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7KG5ke22880 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g7KFnaLK028819 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:05:46 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:05:45 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:03:35 -0700 From: "Geoff Bruton" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, fallen_angel318@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Advice on College Programs / Majors MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 117CB750552382-01-02 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g7KG5le22881 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4818 Hi Megan, Although I am unfamiliar with college courses available here in the U.S. (I am assuming that is where you are writing from), I would tend to agree with those folks who have suggested/recommended that you pursue a "hard science" degree, such chemistry or biology, before specializing in forensic science. (I was born and raised in the U.K., btw, and had to relocate to the west coast of California in order to work in forensic science.) The reasons for pursuing a "hard science" degree are two-fold: First of all, a science degree in, say, chemistry or biology will give you a great foundation with which to work in ANY arena, including, but not limited to, forensic science. Although you may be ardent in your pursuit for a career in forensic science, it may well be that you will become aware of previously unknown fields within your subject that take your fancy even more than forensic science. (I have wanted to do forensic science since around the age of 11 - after watching "Quincy", would you believe? - but was very much tempted by a career involving natural product chemistry. If I had not been so determined to work in forensic science, I think I would have been very happy working in that field.) Such a degree will enable you to go far, and leave very many doors open for you. Specializing at the outset, whilst very attractive to you, I am sure, will inevitably turn employers in other fields off, especially if you are forced to seek work in other areas should a forensic science opportunity not be forthcoming. The second reason, and perhaps more importantly, for choosing a "hard science" degree as your first choice, is that it will give you a tremendous understanding of the world in which we live. Unfortunately, in academic circles, many of the subjects studied and researched are abstract concepts. However, their application "in the real world" is of very great importance. Bear in mind that forensic science operates very much in the "real world," and anything and everything that you can apply from what you have learned in college will be extremely valuable to you. Forensic scientists are just that - scientists. It is their job to interpret the data accumulated during their investigation and its relevance to the criminal investigation as a whole. However, the workhorse of many scientists are the analytical tools and instruments they learned to use - and more importantly, interpret the data from - during their formal education. Much of what you will learn in college, which at times may seem to be boringly abstract, actually has significant application in forensic science - or any of the analytical sciences for that matter. Of course, being originally trained as a chemist, I am somewhat biased toward that field, but at the end of the day, try and be sure to take a science degree in which you have enthusiasm and interest. Although a determination to ultimately work in forensic science can be a tremendous driving force, the road can be long and difficult at times. If you do not enjoy what you are doing, you probably won't be able to put in the long hours necessary to acquire good grades, and more importantly, a good grasp of the subject matter. Anyway, despite working for a little less than half my life in chemistry, I am now very much enjoying working in the field of Firearms and Toolmark Analysis. Although not directly pertaining to my formal education and training, the general principles of scientific methodology still hold true. And that is something that I feel, without my previous education and training, might not have allowed me to ultimately work in my dream job. It took me almost 19 years to get to work in forensic science. The road has been long, difficult at times, but thoroughly enjoyable, all the same. With opportunities being what they are, here in the U.S., I will keep my fingers crossed that your journey is substantially shorter! Hope this helps - and Good Luck! Best wishes to all, -G. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section >>> "Earth Bound" 08/20/02 07:21AM >>> I am currently a high school senior who would like to pursue a career in the field of forensics. What I would like to do specifically, I am unsure. What I would appreciate though, is some advice concerning programs that colleges offer. I have been told by some scientists in a forensic lab on Guam that it would be better if I received a bachelors in either chemistry or biology and then went on to obtain a masters in forensic science, as opposed to majoring in forensic science itself. I was hoping that I could get some feedback from other scientists working within this field as well. Any advice is much appreciated. Many Thanks, Megan Jones From daemon Tue Aug 20 14:28:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7KISFg25903 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.104]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7KISEe25897 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LeonStein@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id y.168.126ff47d (4328) for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:28:12 -0400 (EDT) From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: <168.126ff47d.2a93e43b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:28:11 EDT Subject: Job Opening - NFSTC To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10500 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1315 Please share this with those who may be interested - please note the short response date and the response e-mail address. Laboratory Manager - National Forensic Science Technology Center, Largo, FL Effectively manages the laboratory staff in the NFSTC laboratories; maintains the laboratory for training and quality control testing; establishes, maintains, and reviews laboratory policies and procedures; provides forensic science expertise to other departments of NFSTC (up to 20% of time and effort); represents NFSTC as required at appropriate scientific and technical meetings; Requirements include experience with chemical or biological instrumental analysis as would be utilized in a crime laboratory. The ideal candidate will have 7 - 15 years of crime laboratory experience, with excellent communication skills. Candidates must have a four-year degree in science, and preferably have a graduate degree. The anticipated starting salary is $58-$68K. Qualified candidates should forward a message indicating interest and attach a resume via e-mail to ehy@nfstc.org or fax to 727-549-6070 by 5 PM EDT, Monday, August 26, 2002. EEOE --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Aug 20 17:06:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7KL6Hn29727 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spn25c0.fiu.edu (fiu.edu [131.94.57.18]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7KL6Fe29721 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHMJRA ([131.94.48.45]) by spn25c0.fiu.edu (InterMail vK.4.03.04.01 201-232-130-101 license 864195e5afa519a09f69860cf1965153) with SMTP id <20020820205945.KNMP5062.spn25c0@CHMJRA>; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:59:45 -0400 Message-ID: <003101c2488d$f79dae90$2d305e83@CHMJRA> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dr._Jos=E9_R._Almirall?=" To: Subject: New Forensic Science Lecturer position Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:10:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2478 Dear Colleagues, Please share the following announcement with any interested parties. Lecturer/Forensic science certificate program Coordinator FACULTY POSITION. Florida International University (FIU) invites applications for the position of Lecturer/Forensic Science Certificate Program Coordinator at the International Forensic Research Institute (IFRI) in the Department of Chemistry to begin Spring 2003 (January 2003). A Ph.D. and prior teaching and supervisory experience are preferred. This is a full-time permanent position with responsibilities to include teaching forensic science courses at the undergraduate and graduate level, oversight and development of the certificate in forensic science and coordination of the Frontiers in Forensic Science seminar series working with other FIU department seminar programs. The applicant is expected to implement innovative instructional technologies including the use of on-line asynchronous learning utilizing WebCT. FIU is a public research Research I University with over 32,000 students and is located in west suburban Miami. IFRI was the first academic Forensic Center approved by the State of Florida in 1997 to serve law enforcement efforts in the application of scientific principles to the administration of justice. FIU has one of the State's oldest undergraduate forensic science programs with its criminalistics chemistry program beginning in 1978 and the first State approved M.S. program in Forensic Science starting in 1998. Please see www.ifri.fiu.edu for more information. Please send a c.v., undergraduate and graduate transcripts, teaching philosophy and have three letters of reference sent to: Lecturer/Forensic Science Coordinator Faculty Search Committee, Chemistry Department, FIU, Miami, FL 33199. The search committee will begin reviewing applications on Oct. 1st , 2002; review of applications will, however, continue until the position is filled. FIU is an EO/AA Employer. Thanks, José Almirall _________________ José R. Almirall, Ph.D. Director, Forensic Science Graduate Program Associate Director, International Forensic Research Institute Assistant Professor, Department of Chemistry Florida International University, U.P. Miami, FL, 33199 305.348.3917 (Office) 305.348.3772 (Fax) almirall@fiu.edu http://www.fiu.edu/~almirall/ http://www.fiu.edu/~ifri/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/msword --- From daemon Wed Aug 21 00:02:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7L42Ym05377 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailvs.eth.net (mailvs.eth.net [202.9.145.21]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7L42Ue05366 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-26 ([202.9.178.26]) by mailvs.eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:38:56 +0530 Received: from 202.9.186.1 by smtp-26 (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:33:36 +0530 Message-ID: <000201c248c8$c467ef00$01ba09ca@eth.net> From: "Dr Zachariah" To: "Breyer, Chris" , "Forensics" References: <3D8B72928052D211B17700A0C9DEEFE001044EC4@HBPDMAIL01> Subject: Re: formic acid poisoning Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:47:49 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2002 04:08:56.0140 (UTC) FILETIME=[77DC98C0:01C248C8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1368 possibility, but i dont know how possible. usually, insect stings/ bites induce anaphyllactic reactions, laryngeal edema and spasm being one of the leading causes of death. i suppose if a person ws hypersensitive to formic acid. but even ten, the pathway would be that of a hypersensitivity rezction rather than poisoning. i ws referring to ingestion of the acid, as a suicidal poison - the substance is avaliable here , its used in the process of curing rubber. ----- Original Message ----- From: Breyer, Chris To: 'Dr Zachariah' ; Forensics Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:30 PM Subject: RE: formic acid poisoning > Would formic acid poisoning be brought about by ant (or other insect) > sting/bites? > > Chris Breyer > Sr. Criminalist > Huntington Beach PD > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr Zachariah [mailto:drzach@eth.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:28 PM > To: Forensics > Subject: formic acid poisoning > > > dear list, > why is it that in cases of formic acid poisoning, there is almost no blood > seen during autopsy? this we see even if the aotupsy is done within 6 hrs > after death has occured. > > thanks in advance > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- From daemon Wed Aug 21 16:33:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7LKXmR23042 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postino8.prima.com.ar (postino8.prima.com.ar [200.42.0.179]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7LKXie23036 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 2959 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2002 20:33:34 -0000 Received: from a200042111077.rev.prima.com.ar (HELO fito) (200.42.111.77) by postino8.prima.com.ar with SMTP; 21 Aug 2002 20:33:34 -0000 Message-ID: <003b01c24953$c8b65160$0100007f@fito> From: "Adolfo Scatena" To: "forens" Subject: Serrated knifes Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:30:50 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g7LKXmS23042 Content-Length: 1384 En blancoReading the book of Dr DiMaio "Forensic Pathology" . 2nd edition. in the chapter about Wounds Caused by Pointed and Sharp Edges Weapons, one comes to a picture whith a legend that says : " Stab wound from blade with serrated edge" althoug its is stated that "to be sure that knife blade was serrated from the appereace of the wound is rare", pag 201/024. To me it is difficult to imagine how could a serrated blade (composed by a series of "miniknifes") could leave a incised wound different than the one that could be produce by a regular blade and that could be identified as made with a serrated blade. My small experience shows me that a serrated knife "never" (one should never use never in Medicine) leaves an incise wound diferent that a regular knife- I made also some tests in cadavers where the serrated knife make a perfec incise wound as could be made by a scalpel or a regular knife. As very often we are asked about what kind of knife was the one that cause a wound I would appreciate if any of the list members would like to make comments about it and also would like to have Dr DiMaio E-mail to ask him about it. Dr. Adolfo Scatena Medico Forense 2ª Circunsc Judicial Gral Roca, Rio Negro ARGENTINA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif --- From daemon Thu Aug 22 20:11:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7N0BpJ19621 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.hyp.com.au (mail.hyp.com.au [203.33.34.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7N0Bje19587 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from max (unverified [202.62.41.114]) by mail.hyp.com.au (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.2) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:27:29 +1000 Message-ID: <005201c24a39$b13dbdc0$72293eca@max> From: "lynn " To: Subject: Fw: My roster next week... Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:11:51 +1000 Organization: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g7N0BpK19621 Content-Length: 1507 Fiona, these are from my boss - I didn't even know he had a sense of humour! Love Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Myers To: Lynn Coceani Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 6:04 AM Subject: Fw: My roster next week... ----- Original Message ----- From: Myers, Andrew To: Stuey (E-mail) ; Dad (E-mail) ; Mum (E-mail) Sent: 19 August, 2002 10:36 AM Subject: FW: My roster next week... Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday ...15:30 Saturday ..20:00 ... 03 :00 Sunday ************************** IMPORTANT: This email and any attachments may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disclose or use the information contained in it. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the document. Drake Australia Pty Ltd and/or any of its subsidiaries related companies or entities anywhere in the world ("the Drake group") are not responsible for any changes made to a document other than those made by Drake. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Our liability is limited to re-supplying any affected attachments. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif image/gif image/gif image/gif image/gif image/gif image/gif image/gif image/gif --- From daemon Mon Aug 26 03:10:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7Q7ADw13494 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 03:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f105.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.105]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7Q7ACe13488 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 03:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:10:12 -0700 Received: from 203.109.250.96 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:10:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.250.96] From: "Richard Wright" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: estimation of stature from long bones - Mongoloid females Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:10:12 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2002 07:10:12.0971 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F060BB0:01C24CCF] Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 855 The standard literature on estimation of stature from long bones gives regression formulae for Mongoloid females as unavailable. However I have an abstract of an article by AIKO SASOU and TSUNEHIKO HANIHARA "Regression Equations for Estimating Stature of Modern Japanese Females" Anthropological Science Japanese Series106(1), 55-66, 1998. Can anybody help me by providing the regression formula given in that paper? An email to Tsunehiko Hanihara at hanihara@anat1.med.tohoku.ac.jp bounced back. Does anybody have an alternative email address? ------------------------------------------ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ------------------------------------------ Click Here ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From daemon Mon Aug 26 15:35:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7QJZBS25318 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scn4.scn.org (scn4.scn.org [209.63.95.149]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7QJZAe25312 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scn.org (bi492@scn [209.63.95.146]) by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA11020; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bi492@localhost) by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA22337; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200208261935.MAA22337@scn.org> From: bi492@scn.org (Chesterene Cwiklik) To: TTHOM2@aol.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Burnt hairs Reply-To: bi492@scn.org Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2006 Dear Tracey, On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:00:19 –0400, you wrote: < Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7QL3IS27162 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.hosting.bellsouth.net (smtp.hosting.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.153]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7QL3He27156 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from atslab.com ([216.79.108.58]) by smtp.hosting.bellsouth.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52534L100S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:03:17 -0400 Received: by atslab.com from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:04:00 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.63] [192.168.1.63] by atslab.com [192.168.0.60] (SLmail 3.2.3113) with ESMTP id 1E54C403B6C111D6BAFC00105A613420 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:03:58 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: estauffer@192.168.0.60 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:03:12 -0400 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Eric Stauffer" Subject: mtDNA paternal inheritance X-SLUIDL: 22701607-B6C111D6-BAFC0010-5A613420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4964 Dear List Members, I thought that might interest some of you.... Sincerely, Study Finds Exception to Cell Rules Wed Aug 21, 5:13 PM ET By DANIEL Q. HANEY, AP Medical Editor BOSTON (AP) - Every biologist knows that people inherit their cellular power plants, called mitochondria, only from their mothers, not their dads. Now a surprising new discovery suggests there can be exceptions to this carved-in-stone rule. Cells employ mitochondria - microscopic creatures captured eons ago - to extract energy from food. Mitochondria have their own genes, separate from the usual human blueprints, and scientists long believed that only mothers passed them on to the next generation. But now, Danish scientists have documented the first known exception to the rule, a man whose muscle cells contain mitochondria that came mainly from his father. The discovery was so unexpected that the researchers repeated their experiments several times to make sure they hadn't mixed up samples or made other mistakes. "The only explanation for our results is that it is a case of paternal inheritance of mitochondria. It was a very big surprise to us," said Marianne Schwartz, a geneticist at Copenhagen University Hospital. Some rare diseases are caused by mutations in mitochondrial genes. However, it makes no difference whether or not the bad gene came from the mother, so the latest discovery has little practical importance to patients. However, some wonder whether it might throw off the study of human evolution, since mutations in mitochondrial genes are used to calculate how long ago humanity dispersed from a single individual or small group. The estimates are based on the assumption that only females pass on this DNA through the generations. Schwartz's study, published in Thursday's issue of the New England Journal of Medicine ( news - web sites), involved a 28-year-old man with a severe, lifelong inability to exercise or run more than a few steps. His problem was traced to a deletion in one of the genes that controls his mitochondria. However, the researchers found that only his muscle, the tissue that uses the most energy, had mitochondria with the genetic defect. Cells in his blood, skin, hair and elsewhere contained mitochondria with a different genetic pattern. Further genetic testing revealed that mitochondria in his muscle were identical to his father's, while those elsewhere in his body came from his mother. No one knows how often something like this happens, although Schwartz and others believe it's quite rare. "Maybe we will never see it again, but I think it could happen more than we think," she said. Both the sperm and the egg that come together to make an embryo carry mitochondria. However, the sperm packs only about 100 copies, while the egg has 100,000. According to one theory, the male's mitochondria are simply swamped by the far larger number from the female. However, even highly sensitive genetic tests have routinely failed to find any trace of fathers' mitochondria after the early days of development in the womb. Another theory suggests some surveillance system in the embryo weeds out the father's mitochondria. Evolutionary biologists have assumed that each person's mitochondrial DNA is a copy of their mother's, their grandmother's and so on, back to the dawn of the species. The genes acquire mutations more quickly than ordinary genes, so in theory it is possible to estimate how long two groups of people have been separated by looking at how much their mitochondrial DNA differs. This led to the theory that all humans descended from an African Eve more than 100,000 years ago. However, Dr. R. Sanders Williams, dean of Duke University's medical school, said the possibility of male DNA oozing in could throw off these calculations. "This will generate new debate about the validity of the Eve hypothesis," he said. "Are we all derived from a single female or a small group in Africa, or are our origins a bit broader than that?" But evolutionary biologist Alan Templeton of Washington University doubts the occasional bit of male genetic material will make much difference. "It is so rare that it won't affect the overall patterns over long periods of time," he said. "It's not something I'm overly concerned about." ___ EDITOR'S NOTE: Medical Editor Daniel Q. Haney is a special correspondent for The Associated Press. ___ On the Net: Journal: http://content.nejm.org -- ____________________________________________ "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." (Albert Einstein) Eric Stauffer, MS Fire and Explosion Investigations Applied Technical Services, Inc. 1190 Atlanta Industrial Drive Marietta, GA 30066 Voice (770) 218 2180 ext. 3053 Fax (770) 424 6415 Toll-free 1 800 544 5117 Email estauffer@atslab.com http://www.atslab.com ____________________________________________ From daemon Sat Aug 31 13:38:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g7VHcYF27041 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7VHcWj27016 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41C540B6A; Sat, 31 Aug 2002 23:11:34 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.197.207.79]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Sat, 31 Aug 2002 23:11:39 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3D7014FB.6EAD3B2B@vsnl.net> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 06:29:39 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Cc: jvespy@msn.com Subject: From Anil Aggrawal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2781 Dear List, A troubled mother has sent me the following query. I preferred to use the wisdom of our list than answering her myself. Kindly help. Her question is: ******* DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION AND ANSWER SERVICE TO YOUR WEB PAGE. I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW YOU CAN TELL IF A BODY HAS BEEN MOVED AFTER DEATH. WHAT ARE THE SIGNS? I WAS TOLD THAT IT WILL CAUSE ALL THE BLOOD TO GATHER IN ONE AREA. MY SON WAS FOUND DEAD IN DEC OF 2001 AND THEY WOULDN'T DO AN AUTOPSY , BUT ONE SIDE OF HIS BODY WAS REAL BLACK AND SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT THIS WAS A SIGN THAT HE WAS MOVED AFTER HE DIED, PLUS THEY COULDN'T DETERMINE WHAT KILLED HIM. THEY TOLD ME HE PROB HAD A HEART ATTACK. IS THIS NORMAL WITH A HEART ATTACK, AND THERE WAS SOME BLOOD ALONG WITH SOME FLUID THAT WAS ON THE BED WHERE HE WAS LAYING. HE HAD METHADONE IN HIS BLOOD FROM THE TOXICOLOGY REPORT. HE USED TO GO TO THE CLINIC BUT HAD NOT WENT IN 4 YRS, BUT WAS STILL ADDICTED TO METHADONE. SO WOULD THIS CAUSE A HEART ATTACK LIKE THIS? I CAN'T FIND ANY ANS FROM ANYONE AROUND HERE. THIS IS A VERY SMALL TOWN. THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO FIND FINGERPRINTS AT A CRIME SCENE. MY SON WAS ONLY 38 YRS OLD. SO COULD YOU JUST GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A HEAR ATTACK. MY DAD HAD ONE AND HE WASN'T BLACK. COULD HE HAVE BEEN SMOTHERED? THANK YOU A VERY TROUBLED MOM JOYCE ******** And her Email is jvespy@msn.com Thanks for your help. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Mon Sep 2 17:28:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g82LSBx07796 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g82LS8L07765 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Tue Sep 03 09:28:05 2002 +1200 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:28:04 +1200 Message-ID: From: "Ashton, Jason" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Query-Burglars eating food Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:28:01 +1200 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 577 It is not uncommon for offenders to eat during burglaries and other offences, then leave partially eaten bits behind. This allows the sampling of DNA. Our question is why would offenders eat at scenes? Are there psychological reasons? Jason ------------------------------------------- Jason Ashton Information & Research Services ESR: Institute of Environmental Science & Research Private bag 92021, Hampstead Rd, Mt Albert Auckland, New Zealand --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From daemon Tue Sep 3 09:15:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g83DF6C07646 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g83DF6S07638 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:15:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Curious Cat" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1588 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:19:25 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Curious Cat" ] >From forens-owner Mon Sep 2 20:19:24 2002 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g830JOL27501 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ivfu44.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.248.132] helo=oemcomputer) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17m1Pg-0005d5-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:19:25 -0400 From: "Curious Cat" To: Subject: breakthroughs in forensics/police technology Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:19:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Hello all, Can anyone suggest a good and reliable Web site to track the latest news in forensics and/or police technology? I have looked at the Journal of Forensic Sciences but its focus is too specific for my needs. Thanks in advance! Cat From daemon Tue Sep 3 23:23:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g843NVB08571 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 23:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g843NUL08565 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 23:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WBirkby@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id n.110.17b76fa6 (18251); Tue, 3 Sep 2002 23:23:02 -0400 (EDT) From: WBirkby@aol.com Message-ID: <110.17b76fa6.2aa6d696@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 23:23:02 EDT Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food To: Jason.Ashton@esr.cri.nz, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 559 Jason Ashton: You asked 'why does an offender (thief, robber, etc) eat at the scene of his crime' or words to that effect. I have not seen a letter come over the net with regard to your question, but I would like to offer this probability: Offenders are people--and people DO get hungry at WORK (where they expend a good deal of energy from nervous or physical activity) depending on when they last ate. More likely PHYSIOLOGICAL rather than PSYCHOLOGICAL. That's my two cents. Walter H. Birkby, Ph.D. Forensic Anthropologist Tucson, AZ. From daemon Wed Sep 4 08:59:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84Cx4o16280 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84Cx3L16274 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Stevekasz@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id y.190.c812971 (15877) for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m31.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id MAILINID74-0904085900; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 08:59:00 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 08:59:00 -0400 From: Stevekasz@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Forensic Disciplines. Message-ID: <0150F070.7C82699A.0297EC58@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 427 I am interested if finding out the policies of various laboratories throughout the U.S. concerning the salaries of practitioners of different forensic disciplines. Are all disciplines regarded as equal and receive equal pay or is there variable levels depending the discipline. I am particularly interested in DNA v. everything else. Steve Kaszubinski Center for Forensic Sciences Syracuse, NY (cyskasz@health.ongov.net) From daemon Wed Sep 4 09:18:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84DIMK16861 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.72]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84DILL16855 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer ([24.102.136.178]) by fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.06 201-253-122-126-106-20020509) with ESMTP id <20020904131820.KKBR4777.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@computer>; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:18:20 -0400 Message-ID: <001e01c25415$8a87fed0$b2886618@computer> From: "John Worsley Simpson" <2johnsimpson@rogers.com> To: , , References: <110.17b76fa6.2aa6d696@aol.com> Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:18:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.102.136.178] using ID <2johnsimpson@rogers.com> at Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:18:20 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 892 If hungry burglars leave chicken bones or other scraps of food behind, could enough DNA be extracted to identify them? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 11:23 PM Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food > Jason Ashton: > You asked 'why does an offender (thief, robber, etc) eat at the scene of > his crime' or words to that effect. I have not seen a letter come over the > net with regard to your question, but I would like to offer this probability: > Offenders are people--and people DO get hungry at WORK (where they expend a > good deal of energy from nervous or physical activity) depending on when > they last ate. More likely PHYSIOLOGICAL rather than PSYCHOLOGICAL. > That's my two cents. > Walter H. Birkby, Ph.D. > Forensic Anthropologist > Tucson, AZ. > From daemon Wed Sep 4 10:27:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84ERw918717 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84ERvL18711 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GBEDFORDM@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id y.18b.d79b109 (16109) for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m01.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.129]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id MAILINID121-0904102736; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:27:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:27:36 -0400 From: GBEDFORDM@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Forensic Disciplines. Message-ID: <1901682A.49AE7FCC.020A6B9E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 887 The City of Los Angeles hires Criminalists, not Forensic Chemists, Forensic Biologists etc. Pay scales for all criminalists are based on time on the job, not the assignment. Once criminalists reach our top journey level position, Criminalist II Step V, they are all paid the same. Greg Matheson Los Angeles Police Department Criminalistics Laboratory In a message dated Wed, 4 Sep 2002 7:59:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, Stevekasz@aol.com writes: >I am interested if finding out the policies of various laboratories throughout the U.S. concerning the salaries of  practitioners of different forensic disciplines.  Are all disciplines  regarded as equal and receive equal pay or is there variable levels depending the discipline.  I am particularly interested in DNA v. everything else. > >Steve Kaszubinski >Center for Forensic Sciences >Syracuse, NY >(cyskasz@health.ongov.net) > > From daemon Wed Sep 4 11:17:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FHMs20773 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from som-isa1asemhi2.w2k.state.me.us (hide-112.state.me.us [198.182.163.112]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FHLL20767 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by som-isa1asemhi2.w2k.state.me.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:21 -0400 Message-ID: <8A8F2B3AD27F454695C6129172BD2E4C01467B3B@dps-sphqasmail1.ps.state.me.us> From: "Hicks, Gretchen D" To: "'Stevekasz@aol.com'" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Forensic Disciplines. Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:16:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1764 The Maine State Police Crime Laboratory has Forensic Scientists for Latent Prints and Firearms which are pay grade 23 in the state pay grade system. Forensic Bioligy has Forensic DNA Analyst which performs routine DNA analysis and requires 3 years relavent work experience - pay grade 27. Forensic Biology Supervisor, casework and section supervisor - pay grade 29 supvervisory (5% above regular pay grade). Forensic Chemistry conducts biological screeing and confirmation, trace evidence and fire debris analysis. Forensic Chemist Technician performs technician type duties, no relavent experience required - pay grade 18. Forensic Chemist I conducts routine analysis, requires 1 year relavent working experience - pay grade 23. Forensic Chemist II does casework, training officer for section, technical leader in fire debris, supervisory duties - pay grade 27. Forensic Chemistry Supervisor - casework, technical leader and section supervisor - pay grade 27 supervisory. Pay increases with pay grade. Any pay grade 22 or below can earn overtime (which is currently frozen). 23 and above are salary + two personal days a year. Gretchen Hicks -----Original Message----- From: Stevekasz@aol.com [mailto:Stevekasz@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 8:59 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Forensic Disciplines. I am interested if finding out the policies of various laboratories throughout the U.S. concerning the salaries of practitioners of different forensic disciplines. Are all disciplines regarded as equal and receive equal pay or is there variable levels depending the discipline. I am particularly interested in DNA v. everything else. Steve Kaszubinski Center for Forensic Sciences Syracuse, NY (cyskasz@health.ongov.net) From daemon Wed Sep 4 11:19:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FJN521052 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FJNL21046 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:19:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: Mortuary Death Question (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1208 (Please post and reply to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:55:33 EDT From: Lfd1emt@aol.com To: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Mortuary Death Question Greetings Listmembers, I am working a case in which a victim was 'allegedly' held down by force and embalming fluid was introduced into the body to facillitate death (a mortuary worker passed this onto the Police). The victim (who had a servere history of heart problems) was removed from the scene by the Medical Examiner and released to the Funeral Home (as our local hospital doesn't have a refridgeration unit for deceased) for embalming. The Funeral Director then 'supossedly' emblamed the decedant as per our county protocols to preserve the body until an Autopsy could be conducted. I have three questions- 1) What is the chemical composition of Embalming Fluid 2) Is there a way to determine from residual blood in the body to determine if the body was embalm prior to death or after 3) There seems to be no cause of death everything was of normal and good condition in the body, how would one go about investigating a tip such as this when performing an Autopsy From daemon Wed Sep 4 11:26:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FQJ721650 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FQIL21644 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm8-27.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.27]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/jjb-ns1) with ESMTP id g84FQFD8012973 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:26:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020904074026.00aa2c20@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 07:41:26 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food In-Reply-To: <001e01c25415$8a87fed0$b2886618@computer> References: <110.17b76fa6.2aa6d696@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 257 At 09:18 AM 9/4/02 -0400, John Worsley Simpson wrote: >If hungry burglars leave chicken bones or other scraps of food behind, could >enough DNA be extracted to identify them? I'm not sure why you'd want to identify the chickens, but maybe. Pete Barnett From daemon Wed Sep 4 11:55:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FtEX22678 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch011.westchestergov.com (Cow.westchestergov.com [163.151.0.253]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FtDL22672 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by EXCH011 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Lakhkar, Bharat" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Procedure Manual for PopStats Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 757 This question is for those DNA labs that use Popstats program of FBI to calculate the likelihood ratios and exclusion probabilities for mixtures. Do any of you have a procedure manual ( or any kind of manual ) that explains step by step as to how the program is to be used? I have seen the explanations offerred within the program, but they are not adequate. Since ASCLD/LAB has announced in their recent newsletter that the CODIS function also is likely to be covered by them we want to start getting ready by looking at the procedures and manuals. Anyone willing to share their manuals / instructions can send them to me directly. e-mail : bnl1@westchestergov.com Thanks in advance, Bharat Lakhkar Q.A.Manager Westchester County Forensic Laboratory From daemon Wed Sep 4 13:04:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84H4sM24158 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84H4rL24152 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini99m.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.37.54] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17mdaD-0000SS-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:04:52 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904100341.01dba230@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:04:02 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: John Houde Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food In-Reply-To: <001e01c25415$8a87fed0$b2886618@computer> References: <110.17b76fa6.2aa6d696@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 481 Hmmm, I would offer a slightly different take, based upon the fact that it's not uncommon to find a fecal deposit on the kitchen table at a burglary scene. I would classify that as an act of CONTEMPT for the victim/owner. But, hey, I'm not a psychologist and I don't even play one on TV. :-) John Houde ============= > Offenders are people--and people DO get hungry at WORK (where they expend a > good deal of energy from nervous or physical activity) depending on when From daemon Wed Sep 4 13:07:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84H7MB24430 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.ag.state.oh.us (mail.ag.state.oh.us [156.63.56.32]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84H7ML24424 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by mail.ag.state.oh.us with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:07:22 -0400 Received: from soccmail3.ag.state.oh.us ([192.168.10.101]) by mail.ag.state.oh.us with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3779); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:07:20 -0400 Received: by SOCCMAIL3 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:07:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3BCDF64A0E5FD411B80A00508BDF422C048D1B07@SOCCMAIL1> From: Daniel Cappy To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Query-Burglars eating food Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:07:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2002 17:07:20.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[8763A6D0:01C25435] Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 955 Actually there was a DNA match reported in recent months on the remnants of a chicken dinner that was found at the scene of a multiple homicide in the Chicago area. The case had gone unsolved for a number of years and the chicken dinner was reportedly kept frozen until a suspect was developed in recently. Our lab analyzed a partially eaten piece of pizza found at a burglary scene and was able to identify a suspect from the acquired DNA profile. He should have eaten the whole thing. Dan Cappy -----Original Message----- From: Peter D. Barnett [mailto:pbarnett@fsalab.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:41 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food At 09:18 AM 9/4/02 -0400, John Worsley Simpson wrote: >If hungry burglars leave chicken bones or other scraps of food behind, could >enough DNA be extracted to identify them? I'm not sure why you'd want to identify the chickens, but maybe. Pete Barnett From daemon Wed Sep 4 13:39:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84HdKL25456 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eth.net (smtp14510.eth.net [202.9.145.10] (may be forged)) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84HdHL25450 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:06:59 +0530 Received: from mail10.eth.net ([202.9.178.8]) by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:49:55 +0530 Received: from 152.14.14.17 by mail10.eth.net (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:49:50 +0530 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g84FHVw20845; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:23 -0400 Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FHMs20773 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from som-isa1asemhi2.w2k.state.me.us (hide-112.state.me.us [198.182.163.112]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FHLL20767 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by som-isa1asemhi2.w2k.state.me.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:17:21 -0400 Message-ID: <8A8F2B3AD27F454695C6129172BD2E4C01467B3B@dps-sphqasmail1.ps.state.me.us> From: "Hicks, Gretchen D" To: "'Stevekasz@aol.com'" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Forensic Disciplines. Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:16:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1764 The Maine State Police Crime Laboratory has Forensic Scientists for Latent Prints and Firearms which are pay grade 23 in the state pay grade system. Forensic Bioligy has Forensic DNA Analyst which performs routine DNA analysis and requires 3 years relavent work experience - pay grade 27. Forensic Biology Supervisor, casework and section supervisor - pay grade 29 supvervisory (5% above regular pay grade). Forensic Chemistry conducts biological screeing and confirmation, trace evidence and fire debris analysis. Forensic Chemist Technician performs technician type duties, no relavent experience required - pay grade 18. Forensic Chemist I conducts routine analysis, requires 1 year relavent working experience - pay grade 23. Forensic Chemist II does casework, training officer for section, technical leader in fire debris, supervisory duties - pay grade 27. Forensic Chemistry Supervisor - casework, technical leader and section supervisor - pay grade 27 supervisory. Pay increases with pay grade. Any pay grade 22 or below can earn overtime (which is currently frozen). 23 and above are salary + two personal days a year. Gretchen Hicks -----Original Message----- From: Stevekasz@aol.com [mailto:Stevekasz@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 8:59 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Forensic Disciplines. I am interested if finding out the policies of various laboratories throughout the U.S. concerning the salaries of practitioners of different forensic disciplines. Are all disciplines regarded as equal and receive equal pay or is there variable levels depending the discipline. I am particularly interested in DNA v. everything else. Steve Kaszubinski Center for Forensic Sciences Syracuse, NY (cyskasz@health.ongov.net) From daemon Wed Sep 4 13:40:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84HeWU25833 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsp-dc-exch1.wsp.wa.gov ([167.72.128.51]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84HeUL25814 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200209041740.g84HeUL25814@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Received: by wsp-dc-exch1.wsp.wa.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:43:09 -0700 From: idearmo@wsp.wa.gov To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: microcrystals Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:34:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 326 I'm trying to get a general idea of how many labs rely on microcrystals for the identification of controlled substances, and if they see their use continuing into the future. Have labs used microcrystals in the past and have since abandoned them? If so, why? Thanks in advance for any input. Ingrid Dearmore WSP Crime Lab From daemon Wed Sep 4 13:40:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84HeW225836 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsp-dc-exch1.wsp.wa.gov ([167.72.128.51]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84HeUL25813 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200209041740.g84HeUL25813@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Received: by wsp-dc-exch1.wsp.wa.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:43:09 -0700 From: idearmo@wsp.wa.gov To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: opium Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:35:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 95 What do you require for the conclusive identification of opium? Ingrid Dearmore WSP Crime Lab From daemon Wed Sep 4 13:49:49 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84Hnn326670 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eth.net (smtp14510.eth.net [202.9.145.10] (may be forged)) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84HnjL26664 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:17:38 +0530 Received: from mail06.eth.net ([202.9.178.3]) by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:59:01 +0530 Received: from 152.14.14.17 by mail06.eth.net (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:56:59 +0530 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g84FQbT21706; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:26:20 -0400 Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FQJ721650 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FQIL21644 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm8-27.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.27]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/jjb-ns1) with ESMTP id g84FQFD8012973 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:26:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020904074026.00aa2c20@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 07:41:26 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: Query-Burglars eating food In-Reply-To: <001e01c25415$8a87fed0$b2886618@computer> References: <110.17b76fa6.2aa6d696@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 256 At 09:18 AM 9/4/02 -0400, John Worsley Simpson wrote: >If hungry burglars leave chicken bones or other scraps of food behind, could >enough DNA be extracted to identify them? I'm not sure why you'd want to identify the chickens, but maybe. Pete Barnett From daemon Wed Sep 4 14:02:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84I27727325 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84I26L27319 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LAPTOP ([12.252.188.87]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020904180205.NUTE13899.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@LAPTOP> for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:02:05 +0000 Message-ID: <002a01c2543d$231a2750$0100a8c0@LAPTOP> From: "Jamie" To: "Forens-L" Subject: crystal tests Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:01:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g84I27827325 Content-Length: 1801 I think the reason a lot labs don't use crystal tests any more is because that it is a technique that is no longer taught at the college level. They are considered old and outdated because there isn't a computer read out on them. As more and more of us "old farts" that have used them our entire career and believe in their validity retire or croak, there is a push to get rid of them. I could be wrong, but has been my impression that most of the current crop of people coming into forensics have never been trainied in the use of a microscope and do not understand the value of that tool. It requires more time to learn the techniques associated with doing crystal tests, but in almost all cases these tests will give you more data and much quicker than most instrumental methods. There are still a few places that you can learn these techniques. Contact me off list and I will discuss it further with you. Lets see what everyone else has to say now that I have stirred the pot. Original message - I'm trying to get a general idea of how many labs rely on microcrystals for the identification of controlled substances, and if they see their use continuing into the future. Have labs used microcrystals in the past and have since abandoned them? If so, why? Thanks in advance for any input. Ingrid Dearmore WSP Crime Lab James B Crippin - Director Western Forensic Law Enforcement Training Center 1007 Candytuft Blvd. Pueblo, CO 81001 (719) 544-1011 ph 0037 fx "I would rather be considered irresponsible and be right, than responsible and wrong." Winston Churchill --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Sep 4 14:04:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84I4lI27567 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exchange1.isp.state.id.us (exchange1.isp.state.id.us [164.165.39.254]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84I4jL27561 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by Exchange1.dle.isp.state.id.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:06:13 -0600 Message-ID: From: dave.laycock@isp.state.id.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Burnt Hairs Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:06:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 367 Here is the citation for the recent burnt hair article: Christi Richter Henson and Walter F. Rowe. The Effects of Elevated Temperatures on the Microscopic Morphology of Human Head Hair. The Microscope, V. 50, First Quarter 2002, pp. 21-24. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Sep 4 14:30:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84IU0H28251 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web20511.mail.yahoo.com (web20511.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.150]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g84ITxL28245 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20020904182957.31709.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.232.103.80] by web20511.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:29:57 PDT Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Abercrombie Subject: Re: microcrystals To: idearmo@wsp.wa.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <200209041740.g84HeUL25814@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1474 Ingrid, Oakland (CA) Police Department crime lab has been using microcrystalline tests as their primary method for identifying controlled substances for years, and will continue to use this tried and true technique. Keep in mind, however, that when needed, we use the necessary instrumental methods for identification. There are other major public crime laboratories in California that still use this valuable tool, but I'll let them speak for themselves. The State of California, Bureau of Forensic Services lab system stopped using microcrystalline identification testing in the early to mid-80's and has since gone solely to instrumental methods. Lots of reasons were given for the decision, but the primary reason was a large of purchase of table-top mass spectrometers for all labs, and the resultant desire by (the then) senior administration to mandate the use of the "magic boxes". Tom Abercrombie, Criminalist III/Supervisor Oakland Police Department Crime Laboratory > I'm trying to get a general idea of how many labs > rely on microcrystals for > the identification of controlled substances, and if > they see their use > continuing into the future. Have labs used > microcrystals in the past and > have since abandoned them? If so, why? Thanks in > advance for any input. > > Ingrid Dearmore > WSP Crime Lab __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From daemon Wed Sep 4 14:34:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84IY4v28496 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eth.net (smtp14510.eth.net [202.9.145.10] (may be forged)) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84IY1L28490 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:01:37 +0530 Received: from mail06.eth.net ([202.9.178.3]) by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:28:05 +0530 Received: from 152.14.14.17 by mail06.eth.net (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 04 Sep 2002 21:26:02 +0530 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g84FtcQ22768; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:14 -0400 Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84FtEX22678 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch011.westchestergov.com (Cow.westchestergov.com [163.151.0.253]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84FtDL22672 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by EXCH011 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Lakhkar, Bharat" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Procedure Manual for PopStats Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:55:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 756 This question is for those DNA labs that use Popstats program of FBI to calculate the likelihood ratios and exclusion probabilities for mixtures. Do any of you have a procedure manual ( or any kind of manual ) that explains step by step as to how the program is to be used? I have seen the explanations offerred within the program, but they are not adequate. Since ASCLD/LAB has announced in their recent newsletter that the CODIS function also is likely to be covered by them we want to start getting ready by looking at the procedures and manuals. Anyone willing to share their manuals / instructions can send them to me directly. e-mail : bnl1@westchestergov.com Thanks in advance, Bharat Lakhkar Q.A.Manager Westchester County Forensic Laboratory From daemon Wed Sep 4 14:43:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84Ih0g29105 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web10105.mail.yahoo.com (web10105.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.55]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g84IgxL29096 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20020904184244.30156.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.199.26.34] by web10105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:42:44 PDT Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) From: heidi hess Subject: Wall Street Journal article: experimental DNA test To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <200209041740.g84HeUL25813@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 733 Thought you all might be interested in an article that ran in last Thursday's (8/29) Wall Street Journal -"New Test to ID Sept. 11's Dead." It discussed how the New York Medical Examiner is using SNP Technology to identify World Trade Center victims. Here is the URL, but I believe you have to have a subscription to access it: http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB103056332038383835-search,00.html?collection=wsjie/30day&vql-string=%28DNA+and+New+Test%29%3Cin%3E%28article%2Dbody%29 *you may have to cut and paste the URL in to your browser for it may have broken up in transmission. Heidi Hess __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From daemon Wed Sep 4 14:54:41 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84Isf229601 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.urdirect.net (alpha.urdirect.net [216.136.28.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84IsdL29593 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sany60q25j39h5 (pm3a-33.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.112]) by alpha.urdirect.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id NAA07182 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:54:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha.urdirect.net: Host pm3a-33.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.112] claimed to be sany60q25j39h5 Message-ID: <038d01c25444$514941e0$701c88d8@sany60q25j39h5> Reply-To: "Mike Wise" From: "Mike Wise" To: References: <20020904184244.30156.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal article: experimental DNA test Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:53:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1139 Here it is without a need to be a member of anything. http://www.bioitworld.com/news/083002_report1097.html http://www.orchid.com/news/view_pr.asp?ID=268 Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "heidi hess" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 1:42 PM Subject: Wall Street Journal article: experimental DNA test > Thought you all might be interested in an article that > ran in last Thursday's (8/29) Wall Street Journal > -"New Test to ID Sept. 11's Dead." It discussed how > the New York Medical Examiner is using SNP Technology > to identify World Trade Center victims. > > Here is the URL, but I believe you have to have a > subscription to access it: > http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB103056332038383835-search,00.html?collect ion=wsjie/30day&vql-string=%28DNA+and+New+Test%29%3Cin%3E%28article%2Dbody%2 9 > > *you may have to cut and paste the URL in to your > browser for it may have broken up in transmission. > > Heidi Hess > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > From daemon Wed Sep 4 16:54:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84Ks5l02996 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wmpmta02-app.mail-store.com ([194.73.242.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84Ks3Y02990 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from r1o4r8 ([62.7.101.232]) by wmpmta02-app.mail-store.com with ESMTP id <20020904205347.SFOO28510.wmpmta02-app.mail-store.com@r1o4r8> for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:53:47 +0100 From: "Tiernan" To: "Forens-L" Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:58:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: crystal tests Reply-to: tiernan@talk21.com Message-ID: <3D76820E.554.10CE6D@localhost> In-reply-to: <002a01c2543d$231a2750$0100a8c0@LAPTOP> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1500 I'm in wholehearted agreement with Jamie here. Having come through university in the early nineties without so much as a sniff of a microscope, I was fortunate enough to be trained by an "old fart" and I learned more in six weeks with him than in four years of a BSc. I for one am happy to continue to promote the use of these type of skills, unfortunately the pool of those willing to learn them is getting smaller.... Tiernan Long live the old farts! On 4 Sep 2002, at 12:01, Jamie wrote: I think the reason a lot labs don't use crystal tests any more is because that it is a technique that is no longer taught at the college level. They are considered old and outdated because there isn't a computer read out on them. As more and more of us "old farts" that have used them our entire career and believe in their validity retire or croak, there is a push to get rid of them. I could be wrong, but has been my impression that most of the current crop of people coming into forensics have never been trainied in the use of a microscope and do not understand the value of that tool. It requires more time to learn the techniques associated with doing crystal tests, but in almost all cases these tests will give you more data and much quicker than most instrumental methods. There are still a few places that you can learn these techniques. Contact me off list and I will discuss it further with you. Lets see what everyone else has to say now that I have stirred the pot. From daemon Wed Sep 4 16:54:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84Ksxp03119 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.doj.ca.gov (mail.doj.ca.gov [167.10.5.240]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84KsuY03108 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SAHDCGWIA.hdcdojnet.state.ca.us ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.doj.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H1XM6J00.4RW for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:56:43 -0700 Received: from DOM_GATEWAY-MTA by SAHDCGWIA.hdcdojnet.state.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:56:57 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:55:06 -0700 From: "Joel Duncan" To: Subject: Re: opium Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Guinevere: 1.1.14 ; Department of Justic X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1336 I'm not finding it specified in out Technical Procedures, but our opium standard for comparison requires the presence of: morphine codeine thebaine papaverine The simultaneous extraction of these four is no small feat. A weak base (pH ~8.5) extract into chloroform should do it. Because opium powder doesn't yield any color tests, a quick IR pellet gives a good direction. jd Joel R. Duncan - Criminalist BFS Freedom Laboratory 440 Airport Blvd, Bldg. A Watsonville, CA 95076 831-761-7620 voice 831-761-7629 fax email - joel.duncan@doj.ca.gov >>> 09/04/02 10:35AM >>> What do you require for the conclusive identification of opium? Ingrid Dearmore WSP Crime Lab ******************************************************************* Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ******************************************************************* --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Sep 4 19:10:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g84NAAC05679 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84NA8Y05673 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B481C61C5 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3C5153962; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:06:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin McCarty To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: AAFS college accreditation Standards? Reply-To: irish_pride@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [209.181.19.242] Message-Id: <20020904230632.3C5153962@sitemail.everyone.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1006 Hello all, I am new to this system, so please bear with me ok. I am a student at a community college in Sheridan Wyoming, but obviously I cannot get all of what I need here, so I have inquired into the Chemistry\Criminalistics Program at the University of Wisconsin @ Platteville. Please does anyone know how this college stands up versus other alternatives. I also wanted to know more about the accreditation standards for AAFS. Does AAFS have accreditation standards? If so does anyone know of a list that has what schools are accredited? Thank you all in advance for your help, any input is greatly appreciated. Justin McCarty Veteran USCG _____________________________________________________________ Check out Stonyfield Farm at Stonyfield.com to get E-Coupons for our yummy yogurt and "Moosletters" focusing on organic info, recipes, nutritionist advice, profiles of folks who are making a difference and ways you can make a difference too! Visit them at http://www.planet-save.com/stonyfield.htm From daemon Wed Sep 4 21:26:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g851QaA08058 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g851QZY08052 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from h7f5w7 ([12.246.228.108]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020905012634.KYCA13899.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@h7f5w7> for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 01:26:34 +0000 Message-ID: <005c01c2547b$7cdf1320$6ce4f60c@attbi.com> From: "John Bowden" To: References: <200209041740.g84HeUL25813@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: opium Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:28:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 654 A long, long time ago in a lab far, far away (where I performed 1000's of crystal tests), the identification of opium was confirmed not only by identifying the alkaloids (at least morphine) but meconic acid as well. Reference: the Green, Purple, or Mustard? Book. Most likely this procedure has gone away with many of us "old guys." John P. Bowden Criminalist Supervisor, Retired "Dum Spiro Spero" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:35 AM Subject: opium > What do you require for the conclusive identification of opium? > > Ingrid Dearmore > WSP Crime Lab From daemon Wed Sep 4 21:52:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g851qEr08766 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx.seanet.com (mx.seanet.com [199.181.164.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g851qDY08760 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 8sv5f01 (ip-64-38-163-125.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.163.125]) by mx.seanet.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g851qBF14897 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002a01c2547e$d7532c80$7da32640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Forensic Science List" References: <20020904184244.30156.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal article: experimental DNA test Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:52:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 92 Available free at http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5026592%255E1702,00.html From daemon Wed Sep 4 21:59:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g851xq309076 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moe.sfrn.dnai.com (moe.sfrn.dnai.com [208.59.199.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g851xpY09070 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com (sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com [208.59.199.20]) by moe.sfrn.dnai.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g851sTg27066 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hppav.kruglaw.com (207-172-166-244.s244.tnt1.sfrn.ca.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.166.244]) by sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g851vpR07090 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kim@kruglaw.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020904190138.009dbd70@pop.sfrn.dnai.com> X-Sender: kmk@pop.sfrn.dnai.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 19:06:21 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: Kim Kruglick Subject: Blood Pattern Analysis Mime-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 563 Hi All, Been asked to do a presentation on some issues around blood testing and crime scene analysis. I'd like to know if any of you have any criticism of employing the string theory approach to spatter/pattern analysis, and if so, what. On or off list is fine. Thanks. Best regards, Kim Kruglick mailto:kim@kruglaw.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Forensic Resource and Criminal Law Search Site http://www.kruglaw.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Sep 4 23:31:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g853VRj10664 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f30.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.30]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g853VQY10658 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:31:25 -0700 Received: from 209.182.131.26 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 03:31:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.182.131.26] From: "Stephen Ojena" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Making Gel Lifters Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:31:25 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2002 03:31:25.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[B68E02F0:01C2548C] Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 611 At one time I had a copy of an unpublished paper that described the process of making gel lifters. It listed a source for the materials and the technique. I believe that at one time a midwest crime lab was making their own lifters. If anyone has a copy of the process, please contact me. It would be greatly appreciated. I will be out of town until 9/15, but if all works out I will still be able to collect my Email. Thanks, Stephen Ojena sojen1@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Wed Sep 4 23:53:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g853raA11157 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g853rYY11151 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Thu Sep 05 15:53:30 2002 +1200 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:53:30 +1200 Message-ID: From: "Ashton, Jason" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Query-Drug marking Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:53:29 +1200 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 745 There is a practice of adding specific nontoxic, pharmacologically and chemically inert chemicals to drugs to be able to track the circulation and confirm source etc. Often called 'Drug Marking' or the addition of 'Chemical Markers' or 'Taggants' to drugs. Does anyone know of any literature on this topic. Specifically I am interested in details of what substances can be used in this way. Thank you. Jason ------------------------------------------- Jason Ashton Information & Research Services ESR: Institute of Environmental Science & Research Private bag 92021, Hampstead Rd, Mt Albert Auckland, New Zealand --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From daemon Thu Sep 5 09:55:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85DtP119707 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85DtPY19701 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Gunis77@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id y.182.dd3f587 (16086) for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m16.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.132]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id MAILINID103-0905095517; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:55:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:52:50 -0400 From: Gunis77@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Blood Pattern Analysis Message-ID: <02B6F3D3.3540CCC1.0017CE10@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 648 Kim, The use of stringing for impact pattern reconstruction can be quite cumbersome and riddled with human error. Therefore, I prefer using the tangent method for determining the origin of bloodshed. There are, however, certain instances where stringing is absolutely necessary. When an area of convergence on the two dimensional plane is not actually on a plane such as a wall. This could occur when the impact is not adjeacent to a wall but offset. String must be used to "extend" this plane. Stringing may be useful for demonstrative purposes, but for actual reconstruction should be avoided if possible. Hope this helps! Jeff Gurvis From daemon Thu Sep 5 09:57:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85Dv1L19823 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85Dv0Y19817 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBA61C4D26 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 8957A3960; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:56:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin McCarty To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Blood Indicators Please Help!! Reply-To: irish_pride@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [209.193.71.107] Message-Id: <20020905135653.8957A3960@sitemail.everyone.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1311 Hello all, I have to do a presentation for my College chemistry class later this semester, but I want to get a good head start. I am proposing to do my presentation on either luminol or the process of using Phenolthalene (I hope that is spelled correctly) :0) . Anyway does anyone have have some info they could share with me ie. procedure, video clips, the explanation as to how this works, possible places I could look to getting the materials I need for this exercise, as I need to perform the procedure as well, and any other info would be greatly appreciated as always. I did a presentation last spring on cyanoacrylate (super glue fuming) procedure and it turned out excellent, so I am sure I am held to high expectations for this presentation, as well. It's ok I enjoy the pressure. Again any info or help in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all in advance. Sincerely, Justin McCarty veteran USGC up and coming Criminalist _____________________________________________________________ Check out Stonyfield Farm at Stonyfield.com to get E-Coupons for our yummy yogurt and "Moosletters" focusing on organic info, recipes, nutritionist advice, profiles of folks who are making a difference and ways you can make a difference too! Visit them at http://www.planet-save.com/stonyfield.htm From daemon Thu Sep 5 09:58:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85Dw7D20035 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scsh2 (scsh2.jjay.cuny.edu [209.2.54.242]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85Dw6Y20029 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.scms2.jjay.cuny.edu by scms2.jjay.cuny.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) id <0H1Y00H01WKRVX@scms2.jjay.cuny.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jjay.cuny.edu (scms2 [10.3.253.245]) by scms2.jjay.cuny.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H1Y00I46X9YN5@scms2.jjay.cuny.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.2.44.153] by scms2.jjay.cuny.edu (mshttpd); Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:53:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:53:58 -0400 From: kmcdonal@jjay.cuny.edu Subject: microchemical tests To: Forens-L Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002) Content-language: en Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 308 Not all of us going into forensic science are bereft of microscopy skills. Here at John Jay we learn microchemical tests, general microscopy, and a lot of PLM. Graduate students also have the option to take advanced courses in microscopy techniques, SEM, TEM, and microspectrophotometry. -Kristin McDonald From daemon Thu Sep 5 10:38:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85EcA721328 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hbpdmail01.hbpd.org ([64.240.232.235]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85Ec9Y21322 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by HBPDMAIL01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:37:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3D8B72928052D211B17700A0C9DEEFE001044ED8@HBPDMAIL01> From: "Breyer, Chris" To: "'Peter D. Barnett'" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Query-Burglars eating food Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:37:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 219 That should bring out the PETA people... Chris Breyer -----Original Message----- From: Peter D. Barnett [mailto:pbarnett@fsalab.com] I'm not sure why you'd want to identify the chickens, but maybe. Pete Barnett From daemon Thu Sep 5 12:39:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85Gdpc24717 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.227]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85GdnY24711 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g85GNKWm002460 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:39:47 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:39:47 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:37:41 -0700 From: "James Roberts" To: sojen1@hotmail.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Making Gel Lifters MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 11695759472501-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g85GdoY24712 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4392 When I was with Illinois State Police Jim Krieser and I hosted a week long Shoe print processing seminar for MAFS in which Dr. Roger Davis of the Met. Lab was the primary instructor. I prepared a large number of Gel Lifters for that class. I also wrote up the process I followed and the suppliers I had gotten things through to make them. I passed that out at the class (it might be the unpublished paper you are thinking of or you might have had one of the Met lab papers like the one I'll quote from). I'm not finding a copy the info I developed right now though. I think some of those that attended took the information and went back to their labs to make some. I'll give you the information I worked from but first will point out that Roger brought with him some European commercial lifters that they were considering going to at the time. We found them to be the equal to any home grown lifters and much less a problem to get as they were imported shortly after the class. One of the items was a bit difficult to locate suitable supplies of. The problem was in locating a backing cloth that worked well and that took several experiments. I contacted a supplier and they sent me some samples to test. It needs to adhere to the gel without the gel soaking through. As that was over a dozen years ago I don't remember the final product I picked. The only advantage was in being able to control the thickness of the lifters. Thickness is important for them to work well. The bottom line here is that I now buy the BVDA lifters that Roger brought from Europe for the class and I think the Met lab does (or did) and gave up making their own. I think there are multiple suppliers of the BVDA lifters here in the USA, I get them from Lightning Powder Co. as I recall. (I have no connection with BVDA or Lightning this is just what I use rather than make what is really no better.) If someone can show me a better lifter than the BVDA I'll be glad to try it. Brand may not be important but thickness is, the very thin ones do not work except for making test marks by stepping on them with powdered shoes in my experience (but they are quite good for that as are other materials). To lift from a rough surface like concrete you need the thickness and I've never seen the thin ones work as well on any surface. Just in case you still think you need to make some, the following is the info I worked from along with some comments Roger gave me. Here were Rogers comments on make-up of the lifters: "The MPFSL has its own in-house lifter prepared from a formulation comprising gelatin powder (12.7%), glycerol (44.5%), water (42.5%), carbon black powder (0.16%) and sodium fluoride (0.13%) by weight . These ingredients are intimately mixed at about 55 degrees C, poured on to a sheet of clear polyester in a mould, covered with a piece of rubberized fabric and allowed to set." He goes on to comment on a source for commercial lifters. As I said it has been over a dozen years since I made any up and I don't recall the specifics of the gelatin or the rubberized cloth I settled on. As I recall my mold was 4 pieces of plexiglass cut to form a frame at the edge of the clear polyester sheets and clamped in place, these were about 1/8 inch thick and I'd fill it and level it then put on the cloth and let it set. You can leave out the finger print powder or go to a different color and have different backgrounds for contrast. I might be able to dig up a bit more info if you really need it but that is what I have at hand. Jim James L. Roberts Firearm & Toolmark Examiner Ventura Co. Sheriff's Lab 800 S. Victoria Ave. Ventura, CA. 93009 (805) 654-2308 James.Roberts@mail.co.ventura.ca.us >>> "Stephen Ojena" 09/04/02 08:31PM >>> At one time I had a copy of an unpublished paper that described the process of making gel lifters. It listed a source for the materials and the technique. I believe that at one time a midwest crime lab was making their own lifters. If anyone has a copy of the process, please contact me. It would be greatly appreciated. I will be out of town until 9/15, but if all works out I will still be able to collect my Email. Thanks, Stephen Ojena sojen1@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Thu Sep 5 13:20:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85HK9i26119 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from som-isa1asemhi2.w2k.state.me.us (hide-112.state.me.us [198.182.163.112]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85HK9Y26113 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by som-isa1asemhi2.w2k.state.me.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:20:02 -0400 Message-ID: <8A8F2B3AD27F454695C6129172BD2E4C01467B4E@dps-sphqasmail1.ps.state.me.us> From: "Hicks, Gretchen D" To: "Forens-l (E-mail)" Subject: Light Source Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:19:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 547 List, We are currently researching the variety of alternate light sources available and which are better for our varied applications. We generally use alternate light sources for crime scenes, latent prints, and semen screening / visualization. I would like to get an idea as to what the other laboratories are using for each of the three applications. Thank you in advance for your time. Sincerely, Gretchen D. Hicks Forensic Chemist II Maine State Police Crime Laboratory 26 Hospital St. Augusts, ME 04333 P: 207-624-7028 F: 207-624-7123 From daemon Thu Sep 5 13:49:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85HnWP27299 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85HnVY27293 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Solo9550LS ([12.241.130.246]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020905174927.HHVZ11061.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@Solo9550LS>; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:49:27 +0000 Message-ID: <003501c25504$6c996ea0$f682f10c@Solo9550LS> Reply-To: "Daryl W. Clemens" From: "Daryl W. Clemens" To: , "Kim Kruglick" References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020904190138.009dbd70@pop.sfrn.dnai.com> Subject: Re: Blood Pattern Analysis Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:48:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1236 Criticism... It's a pain running all those strings and keeping them straight. It's time consuming, and you have to do it at the scene. Otherwise, it does work, and photographs of the strings provide a nice visual reference. I haven't done that many blood stain reconstructions mind you, but I prefer to take pictures and/or measurements and calculate the area of origin, and simply report the results with a written report or diagram. Daryl W. Clemens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Kruglick" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:06 PM Subject: Blood Pattern Analysis > Hi All, > > Been asked to do a presentation on some issues around blood > testing and crime scene analysis. I'd like to know if any of you have any > criticism of employing the string theory approach to spatter/pattern > analysis, and if so, what. On or off list is fine. Thanks. > > Best regards, > Kim Kruglick > mailto:kim@kruglaw.com > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Forensic Resource and > Criminal Law Search Site > http://www.kruglaw.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Thu Sep 5 13:51:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85HpoE27568 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85HpnY27562 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:51:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Daniel Nippes" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2003 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:26:47 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Daniel Nippes" ] >From forens-owner Thu Sep 5 11:26:46 2002 Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g85FQkY23193 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from no.name.available by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 5 Sep 2002 15:26:47 UT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Blood Indicators Please Help!! Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:26:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Blood Indicators Please Help!! Thread-Index: AcJU5CGPC6Xb3eCcTceAcs886VL5MwAClqlF From: "Daniel Nippes" To: , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g85FQkY23194 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="utf-8" A good starting point to get the historical background of presumptive tests is Sourcebook in Forensic Serology, Immunology, and Biochemistry, by Bob Gaensslen. It is available from the Superintendent of Documents, US Govt. Printing Office. Section 6 provides excellent background of the developoment of catalytic tests which have worked their way in and out of forensic use. Luminol and phenolphthalin tests are included. The actual prep/use methods are available in numerous forensic texts, including the popular books by Dick Saferstein and Henry Lee. Daniel C. Nippes Chief Criminalist Regional Crime Laboratory Fort Pierce, Florida From daemon Thu Sep 5 14:30:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g85IUeG28747 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (courts.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85IUdY28741 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dps.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H1ZA2Z00.1NY for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:30:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3D77A2C9.8040705@dps.state.ak.us> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 10:30:33 -0800 From: Jim Wolfe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020512 Netscape/7.0b1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens-L Subject: Trace Analyst Opening in Alaska X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3318 Trace Analyst Position in Alaska Closing Date extended to October 4, 2002! The Alaska State Crime Lab is recruiting for an experienced trace evidence analyst - For general info or to apply, go to Workplace Alaska http://notes.state.ak.us For specific info on the lab or if you questions on what life in Alaska is like, contact me: Jim Wolfe Criminalist IV Alaska State Crime Lab (907) 269-5683 Position Announcement Criminalist III State of Alaska No less than $3995.00 Monthly, DOE The Department of Public Safety Scientific Crime Detection Laboratory is recruiting for a Criminalist position located in Anchorage. We are seeking a dedicated professional with a minimum of two years experience with basic and advanced trace evidence comparisons and serological screening tests on physical evidence (hairs, fibers/fabric, paint chips, building materials, etc.). Instrumentation and techniques used will include visible microscopy (stereo, compound, polarized, fluorescence), microFTIR, visible microspectrometry, pyrolysis GCMS, SEM-EDX, and digital photography. This position will prepare detailed notes, write reports, and provide court testimony to reflect analytical findings. The State of Alaska provides health insurance (medical, dental, and vision), an excellent retirement package, two weeks of paid holidays, and outstanding leave accrual. In addition, the State offers deferred compensation, direct deposit, savings bonds and the ability to direct how and where your retirement is invested. The Public Safety Scientific Crime Detection Laboratory is a well-equipped progressive facility located in Anchorage. The largest city in Alaska, situated in Southcentral Alaska at the head of Cook Inlet, Anchorage is three hours' flight time from Seattle. With a history of cultural diversity, spectacular scenery, excellent recreational and entertainment facilities, Anchorage is a premier urban location in Alaska. For more information about the city and relocation to Alaska please visit: CITY OF ANCHORAGE: http://www.ci.anchorage.ak.us/ COMMUNITY PROFILES: http://www.dced.state.ak.us/mra/CF_COMDB.htm RELOCATION/ALASKA FACTS: http://www.dced.state.ak.us/tourism/relocation.htm CALENDAR OF EVENTS: http://www.north-to-alaska.com/default.asp?USID=12129389 TOURISM/GENERAL INFORMATION: http://www.dced.state.ak.us/tourism/ If you are looking for an opportunity to work as a member of a highly skilled, motivated and successful team, and you meet the minimum qualifications for this position, apply today! Application must be made through Workplace Alaska at http://notes.state.ak.us or by calling 800-587-0430 statewide or 907-465-4095/4430 in Juneau for a hard copy application. The Applicant Profile and Job Qualification Summary forms, on-line or hard copy, must be received no later than 5:00 p.m., October 4, 2002, at the Department of Administration, Division of Personnel, PO Box 110201, Juneau, AK 99811-0201. Fax: 907-465-2576. The State of Alaska is an equal employment opportunity employer and supports workplace diversity. Individuals requiring accommodation call 800-587-0430 V/800-770-8973 TTY/TDD (Relay Alaska). --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Sep 6 04:46:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g868k0K12164 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 04:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scn4.scn.org (scn4.scn.org [209.63.95.149]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g868jwY12158 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 04:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scn.org (bi492@scn [209.63.95.146]) by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA17855 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bi492@localhost) by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA16550; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200209060846.BAA16550@scn.org> From: bi492@scn.org (Chesterene Cwiklik) To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Mike Grieve Reply-To: bi492@scn.org Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1429 > >With great sorrow I am forwarding this message to all my SWGMAT hair contacts. > >From: Max Houck >Subject: Sad News >Date: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:02AM > >I regret to inform you that our beloved and respected colleague, Mike >Grieve, passed away unexpectedly yesterday. This comes as a shock to us >all >and is an immeasurable loss to the forensic science community worldwide. > >Mike's contributions to science, trace evidence, European and American >working groups, not to mention the innumerable cases he worked, were >remarkable. His friendship was also remarkable, providing humor and >personal >insight when they were needed most. > >Should I hear further details, I will let you know. > >Faye Springer > > Mike Grieve was a luminary in the field of forensic science who was ever willing to discuss a project, offer a word of encouragement, take the time to criticise a draft, and give useful information to help with a case. To those who met him in person he might also offer a beer. He was equally interested in talking with well-known colleagues and with unsung forensic science practitioners who strove to do good science, sometimes against long odds. He was the master of the lucid experiment which was so well conceived that the meaning of the results was clear. I will miss him. Chesterene Cwiklik -- Cwiklik & Associates 2400 6th Avenue South #257 Seattle, WA 98134 (206)623-3637 FAX (206)623-4384 From daemon Fri Sep 6 09:08:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g86D8Wv16311 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g86D8VY16305 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B591C4642 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 00BDE392C; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:08:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin McCarty To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Blood Indicator tests Cont.. Reply-To: irish_pride@planet-save.com X-Originating-Ip: [209.193.71.202] Message-Id: <20020906130820.00BDE392C@sitemail.everyone.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1407 Hello all, I looked around the net to find a good website showing the scientific explination as to how Luminol reacts with the pigment in blood, haemoglobin (an O2 transporting pigment). Bloodstains can be made to glow with a blue light due to the chemoluminescent reaction of the luminol reagent with the Fe atom in a molecule of haemoglobin. Is this reaction besides the chemiluminescent effect basically the same with Phenolpthalein? Or is a completly different reaction all together? What do you experts in the field use most often for presumptive tests? What is the process for making Phenolpthalin blood indicator. I know it is used as an Acid/ Base indicator as I have used it in the past, but is there anything specific that I must do to make the correct recipe, if you will? Where can I get a small amount of Luminol for my Chemistry presentation? Thank you all in advance. Many of you have responded kindly to my information nagging and I truly appreciate it. Sincerely, Justin McCarty Veteran USCG Up and coming Criminalist _____________________________________________________________ Check out Stonyfield Farm at Stonyfield.com to get E-Coupons for our yummy yogurt and "Moosletters" focusing on organic info, recipes, nutritionist advice, profiles of folks who are making a difference and ways you can make a difference too! Visit them at http://www.planet-save.com/stonyfield.htm From daemon Fri Sep 6 10:59:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g86ExAS19453 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g86ExAc19447 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:59:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Hayes, Scott" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2614 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:26:18 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Hayes, Scott" ] >From forens-owner Fri Sep 6 00:26:17 2002 Received: from exchmail ([206.53.114.21]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g864Q2Y08122 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exchmail with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:22:56 -0500 Message-ID: <9A9C33B1B313D411BF5E00508B10DFE806403025@exchmail> From: "Hayes, Scott" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Re Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:22:56 -0500 Sensitivity: Private MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Kim, Yes I do agree that the stringing method is quite cumbersome and very time consuming. But to give a visual effect of the scene for court purposes is beneficial to the jurors. As you know most jurors likes to see the visual effects so they can understand it better. In our crime lab we use both string for visual effects and the use of the bloodstain pattern computer software called Back Track Win and Back Track Image. With this method you take photographs of the stain and place it in the computer program and it will sting it. By doing both it helps you check your work. Plus with the computer program it is more accurate then the string method. With the string method if you are with in a basket ball size you are in the ball park, but with Back track Win you should be with in 5cm Scott W. Hayes Crime Scene Supervisor Crime Lab Technical Service Bureau (316) 268-4507 Wichita Police Dept. Wichita KS E-mail hayes_s@ci.wichita.ks.us ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Kruglick" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:06 PM Subject: Blood Pattern Analysis > Hi All, > > Been asked to do a presentation on some issues around blood > testing and crime scene analysis. I'd like to know if any of you have any > criticism of employing the string theory approach to spatter/pattern > analysis, and if so, what. On or off list is fine. Thanks. > > Best regards, > Kim Kruglick > mailto:kim@kruglaw.com Scott W. Hayes Crime Scene Supervisor Crime Lab Technical Service Bureau (316) 268-4507 Wichita Police Dept. 3rd detail From daemon Fri Sep 6 11:05:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g86F5mo19904 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.99]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g86F5lY19898 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Gungozboom@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id y.cf.1c924db3 (15877) for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m06.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.134]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v88.21) with ESMTP id MAILINID74-0906110537; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:05:37 -0400 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:05:37 -0400 From: Gungozboom@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Tapes and Adhesives Message-ID: <1132AC44.7D464E15.0B9FB8EB@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 469 I am posting this message for a colleague in the trace section of our laboratory. We have an intern for six months who will be working on a project involving tapes, adhesives and tape backings. Does anyone out there have protocols for this type of analysis? Also what about a good bibliography for reference articles. Thanks, Please send all responses to: Robin_Gall@sheriff.org Allen Greenspan Broward County Sheriff's Office Crime Lab Fort Lauderdale Florida From daemon Sat Sep 7 16:04:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g87K4q604010 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g87K4pY03995 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LAPTOP ([12.252.188.87]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020907200450.UGEA25823.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@LAPTOP>; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 20:04:50 +0000 Message-ID: <002301c256a9$c7536bb0$0100a8c0@LAPTOP> From: "Jamie" To: , "Forens-L" References: <1132AC44.7D464E15.0B9FB8EB@aol.com> Subject: Re: Tapes and Adhesives Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:04:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g87K4q704010 Content-Length: 1336 I would contact Jenny Smith at the Missouri Steate Highway Patrol lab in Jefferson City, MO. Her an Will Randle have taught several courses on this subject in the past and have extensive knowldge in the subject area. James B Crippin - Director Western Forensic Law Enforcement Training Center 1007 Candytuft Blvd. Pueblo, CO 81001 (719) 544-1011 ph 0037 fx "I would rather be considered irresponsible and be right, than responsible and wrong." Winston Churchill ----- Original Message ----- From: Gungozboom@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Tapes and Adhesives I am posting this message for a colleague in the trace section of our laboratory. We have an intern for six months who will be working on a project involving tapes, adhesives and tape backings. Does anyone out there have protocols for this type of analysis? Also what about a good bibliography for reference articles. Thanks, Please send all responses to: Robin_Gall@sheriff.org Allen Greenspan Broward County Sheriff's Office Crime Lab Fort Lauderdale Florida --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Sep 9 07:09:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g89B9Nn24829 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 07:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from troopers.state.ny.us ([161.11.133.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g89B9LY24814 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 07:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NYSPGATE-Message_Server by troopers.state.ny.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 07:09:22 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 07:08:57 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Bloodstain Institute Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g89B9MY24817 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 307 Has anyone taken Herbert MacDonnel's bloodspatter course in Corning, NY? I have applied to take the class and have been asked for some "objective feedback". Any input would be appreciated. Thanks Brad Brown Forensic Scientist II New York State Police Forensic Investigation Center Bioscience - Casework From daemon Mon Sep 9 11:07:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g89F7s006885 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g89F7r806879 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net (206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.45.183]) by relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D0414F6A7F for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:07:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) with SMTP; 9 Sep 2002 14:59:53 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Mon Sep 09 08:07:01 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:07:51 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:07:11 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: Blood Pattern Analysis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g89F7r806880 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 436 The stringing technique has its place in crime scene reconstruction. It is visually beneficial when one is verifying multiple events or source areas in a confirned area. Areas of convergence can also be plotted quickly and then photographed for demonstrative purposes. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 From daemon Mon Sep 9 11:33:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g89FXVw07584 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g89FXU807578 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net (206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.45.183]) by relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9956A4F6B6D for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:02:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) with SMTP; 9 Sep 2002 14:54:06 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Mon Sep 09 08:01:15 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:02:05 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:01:37 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: microcrystals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g89FXU807579 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 454 Our laboratory uses them as part of the drug screeening process and as a step in the confirmation process. We anticipate their continued use because of the speed and accuracy of this type of analysis. Of course, all confirmations require analysis by instrumentation such as FTIR or GCMS. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 From daemon Mon Sep 9 12:21:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g89GLa208478 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from usacil2.army.mil (usacil2.forscom.army.mil [160.136.216.9]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g89GLZ808472 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by usacil2.forscom.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:22:13 -0400 Message-ID: <8782B20DF1F90C4FA5FF5A6787F0CA030D0AE1@usacil2.forscom.army.mil> From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: FW: Tuesday Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:22:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 425 Dave, Do you have the info on the modeling agency handy? Thanks, Lynn Also, could you please ask your co-worker who has a child model for the name & number of the modeling agency that they use again? I gave Amy the info last time, but no longer have it. Thank you and have a nice day. Jay :-) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Sep 9 16:20:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g89KK2x14219 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.101]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g89KK1V14213 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WMorris400@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id y.10f.16d5d597 (16484); Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:19:46 -0400 (EDT) From: WMorris400@aol.com Message-ID: <10f.16d5d597.2aae5c61@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:19:45 EDT Subject: Re: microcrystals To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, idearmo@wsp.wa.gov CC: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 376 Since microcrystal tests are based upon structural properties, why don't you use the results confirmed by a second test (uv, tlc, gc, etc) instead of using the tests as a screen or confirmation of GCMS or IR. If you only look at shapes, I can understand it but if you are determining angles, color, refractive index, etc it should be an identification test. Wayne Morris From daemon Mon Sep 9 16:34:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g89KYOu14942 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay2.mail.twtelecom.net (relay2.mail.twtelecom.net [216.54.204.190]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g89KYNV14936 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net (206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.45.183]) by relay2.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AF3BC2C3 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:34:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay2.mail.twtelecom.net [216.54.204.190]) with SMTP; 9 Sep 2002 20:26:21 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Mon Sep 09 13:33:31 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:34:20 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:33:56 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , , Subject: Re: microcrystals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g89KYNV14937 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 381 Our protocol requires one instrumental analysis in addition to a microcrystalline test for confirmation. Screening test include color tests. Thin Layer Chromatography is virtually nonexistant in our lab these days. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 From daemon Tue Sep 10 20:01:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8B01mY15562 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lsh110.siteprotect.com (lsh110.siteprotect.com [66.113.130.251]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8B01lV15556 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heaven (bc182106.bendcable.com [216.228.182.106]) by lsh110.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA06219; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:01:47 -0500 Reply-To: From: "BJTT" To: "Forens-L" , Subject: Upcoming training: Forensic DNA Analysis, Fundamental Concepts in Forensic Science Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:01:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1422560-1636-998521180-barb=corpus-delicti.com@returns.onelist.com X-Sender: barb@corpus-delicti.com X-Apparently-To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com Importance: Normal List-Unsubscribe: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 List-Subscribe: X-EMC-Authenticated-Sender: X-Message-ID: X-List-Host: Knowledge Solutions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2277 Upcoming online training that may be of interest to list members: ======================================================================== F O R E N S I C D N A 1 0 1 An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis ======================================================================== - Registration & Payment deadline: SEP 14, 2002 - Start date: SEP 14, End date: OCT 25 (6 Weeks) - Instructors: Keith Inman, M Crim, Norah Rudin, PhD, co-authors of "An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis" - For more information or to register: http://www.forensic-science.com/course_description/dna101.html - Course outline: http://www.forensic-science.com/syllabus/dnasyl.html ======================================================================== F S 1 0 1 Fundamental Concepts in Forensic Science ======================================================================== - Registration & Payment deadline: NOV 2, 2002 - Start date: NOV 9, End date: DEC 6 (4 Weeks) - Instructors: Keith Inman, M Crim, Norah Rudin, PhD, co-authors of "Principles and Practice of Criminalistics: The Profession of Forensic Science" - For more information or to register: http://www.forensic-science.com/course_description/fs101.html - Course outline: http://www.forensic-science.com/syllabus/fs101_syl.html ======================================================================== Other courses open for registration: * CP 203 Criminal Profiling & Psychopathy, II: OCT 5 - NOV 1 2002 * CP 208 Criminal Profiling & Domestic Homicide: OCT 5 - NOV 1 2002 * CP 501 Criminal Profiling: OCT 12 - DEC 6 2002 * CP 202 Criminal Profiling & Psychopathy: OCT 19 - NOV 15 2002 * CP 505 Serial Homicide Investigation: NOV 30 - JAN 24 2002 (2003) ======================================================================== For details on any of our courses, or to register, please see our Course Catalog at: http://www.forensic-science.com/courses.html Thank you, Knowledge Solutions Staff ================================================== Knowledge Solutions LLC http://www.corpus-delicti.com Online Forensic Science Courses http://www.forensic-science.com/ Forensic Science Bookstore http://www.corpus-delicti.com/bookstore.html ================================================== From daemon Tue Sep 10 20:27:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8B0RoF16117 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ccprodapp10.campuscruiser.com ([216.35.68.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8B0RnV16111 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ccprodapp10 (ccprodapp10 [208.34.245.230]) by ccprodapp10.campuscruiser.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8B0RoU10515 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:27:50 -0400 Message-ID: <7272105.1031704070596.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp10> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:27:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Theodore Mozer Reply-To: tmozer@occ.mailcruiser.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Porter Lee Beast LIMS System Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: CC Mailer IV X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 475 Our State Laboratory (NJ State Police Forensic Science Section) is currently implementing the PorterLee Beast evidence tracking system. As the "system administrator", I would love to hear from any other Forensic Science/LIMS people who have been involved in the implementation of the Beast system and/or are involved in the daily use of the system. lppmozet@gw.njsp.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From daemon Fri Sep 13 15:15:43 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8DJFh922899 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx.seanet.com (mx.seanet.com [199.181.164.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8DJFfV22893 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 8sv5f01 (ip-64-38-163-66.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.163.66]) by mx.seanet.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g8DJFgt01095 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <051701c25b59$f44e62f0$9ea32640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Forensic Science List" Subject: Field test for khat Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:43:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 155 Does anyone know of a presumptive test for cathinone, suitable for use in the field by patrol officers? LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA From daemon Wed Sep 18 11:14:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8IFETU06954 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exchange1.isp.state.id.us (exchange1.isp.state.id.us [164.165.39.254]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8IFERI06948 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by Exchange1.dle.isp.state.id.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:14:48 -0600 Message-ID: From: dave.laycock@isp.state.id.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Reference Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:14:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 482 Does anyone out there know of a magazine or journal titled Contact? I am specifically looking for an article titled "The arterial pump. A device for simulating arterial bleeding". Authors are listed as Stokes, Emes, and Price. October 1995. So far I've been unable to identify this particular journal. Thanks! Dave Laycock Idaho State Police Forensics --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Sep 18 13:12:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8IHCDi09380 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from doaisd01001.state.mt.us (doaisd01001.state.mt.us [161.7.1.78]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8IHCCI09374 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by doaisd01001.state.mt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:12:13 -0600 Message-ID: <12E1430F942ED411BBB000508BADC8B7086FAC21@doaisd03001.state.mt.us> From: "Ammen, Alice" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: Gastric Contents Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:12:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 301 Dear list members, I am looking for someone with expertise in gastic contents identification who might be willing to help me identify a food/substance. I have several digital images I could email. Alice Ammen Montana Forensic Science Division Phone: 406.329.1154 Email: aammen@state.mt.us From daemon Thu Sep 19 10:04:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8JE49402395 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exchange1.isp.state.id.us (exchange1.isp.state.id.us [164.165.39.254]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JE47I02389 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by Exchange1.dle.isp.state.id.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:04:34 -0600 Message-ID: From: dave.laycock@isp.state.id.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Article Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:04:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 277 Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about the Contact article. I am interested in building one of the pumps for officer crime scene training. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Sep 19 10:27:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8JERwb03614 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsp-dc-exch1.wsp.wa.gov ([167.72.128.51]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JERvI03608 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200209191427.g8JERvI03608@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Received: by wsp-dc-exch1.wsp.wa.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:30:24 -0700 From: idearmo@wsp.wa.gov To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: microcrystal tests Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:28:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 513 Thank you all for your kind responses to the inquiry on microcrystals. Some here in Washington continue to use them, while others have been trained in their use and have discontinued using them. In our labs, microcrystals are used mainly in identifying meth and cocaine, but only in conjunction with an instrumental method providing molecular information and reviewable data. It remains to be seen what position SWGDRUG will take in the future regarding this issue. Thanks again. Ingrid Dearmore WSP Crime Lab From daemon Thu Sep 19 11:48:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8JFmTo06127 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JFmRI06121 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm8-7.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.7]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/jjb-ns1) with ESMTP id g8JFmNK7017970 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020919082451.00aaed20@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:39:39 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: microcrystal tests In-Reply-To: <200209191427.g8JERvI03608@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2260 At 07:28 AM 9/19/02 -0700, idearmo@wsp.wa.gov wrote: >Thank you all for your kind responses to the inquiry on microcrystals. Some >here in Washington continue to use them, while others have been trained in >their use and have discontinued using them. In our labs, microcrystals are >used mainly in identifying meth and cocaine, but only in conjunction with an >instrumental method providing molecular information and reviewable data. It >remains to be seen what position SWGDRUG will take in the future regarding I don't understand why you say that instrumental methods provide molecular information, and imply therefor that crystal tests do not. Should we assume that crystals are a function of some other property than the arrangement of atoms in a molecule? As far as reviewable data is concerned, there are just as many opportunities for spectra to be misrepresented as there are for crystals to be misrepresented. What is the difference to a reviewer in looking at a spectrum that is recognized as methamphetamine and labelled "exhibit 1 from case no 2" or a page of notes that says "characteristics crystals with gold chloride were obtained on exhibit 1 from case no. 2." The only way to be sure that EITHER answer is correct is to redo the analysis. That should be the routine part of the quality control process in any scientific operation -- not simply a review of the paperwork. If administrators get a warm and fuzzy feeling from seeing spectra in drug analysts' records they should realize it is not a guarantee of much (in fact, it may just be the opposite), and it comes at a huge sacrifice in productivity. (Not that productivity is the most important goal, but what is the point of doing a drug analysis if it takes longer that about a week to get the results back?) P.S. It sounds like there were a lot of off-list responses on this topic. It is a shame that people find it necessary to respond off list. Are they unwilling to state their opinions publicly? These kinds of discussions should take place in other forums than the hallowed grounds of SWGDRUG meetings. Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Sep 19 12:26:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8JGQpj07364 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JGQoI07358 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini9cr.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.37.155] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17s48T-0000xx-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:26:37 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020919090251.02b531e0@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:23:52 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: John Houde Subject: Off list re xtals In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020919082451.00aaed20@pop.nothingbutnet.net> References: <200209191427.g8JERvI03608@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 610 Re microcrystals I was one of the ones who responded off list because my response included excerpts from the 3rd Quarter, 2000 of the CACNews. In that issue we laid out the most compelling arguments in favor of microcrystals testing I've ever seen in print. As this list doesn't allow attachments, I didn't share. Sorry! To that end, I posted a pdf (Acrobat) copy of those articles to my website at www.calicopress.com/xtals/3rdq2000-excerpt.pdf. It is about 1.6megs and well worth reading if you are interested in this topic. There are some references you'll never find elsewhere. Thanks! John Houde From daemon Mon Sep 23 10:00:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8NE0Ma04398 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fourier.sag.gwu.edu (fourier.sag.gwu.edu [128.164.127.73]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8NE0LI04392 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fuchs.sag.gwu.edu (fuchs.sag.gwu.edu [192.168.61.126]) by fourier.sag.gwu.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.4.0.2000.05.17.04.13.p6) with ESMTP id <0H2W0086M9K2TX@fourier.sag.gwu.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fermi.nit.gwu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuchs.sag.gwu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8NDw2d15799 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acad1 (acad.gwu.edu [128.164.127.128]) by fermi.nit.gwu.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g8NDxNcB021415 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:00:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Alexis Turner Subject: Canine scenting: Literature search X-X-Sender: To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2365 I was hoping someone on the list might be able to help me locate copies of the several following refereces. I would love to receive them in any language, although unfortunately I do not speak Polish. I will have them translated if necessary, but if you could supply them in English or Spanish that would be even better. --- Alexis Turner Department of Forensic Science George Washington University alexist@gwu.edu Bednarek T. (1998). Podstawowe zagadnienia z badan osmologicznych [Basic issues concerning scent examination], Problemy Kryminalisstyki, 222, 32-34. Gola A., Orzechowski J. (1998). Rola i znaczenie badan na atrakcyjnosc w procesie identyfikacji sladow zapachowych [The role and significance of tests for attractiveness in the process of scent race identification], Problemy Kryminalisyki, 222, 40-41. Gricenko W. W. (1997). Idientifikacija czietowieka po zapachowym sliedam za rubiezom [Human identification on scent traces abroad], unpublished manuscript. Gricenko W. W., Obidin A. b., Starowojtow W. I. (1999). Wlijanije faktora wriemieni na obrazowanije, sochrannostHanausek T. (1998). Meandry osmologii [The meanders of osmology], Palestra, 1-2, 41-46. Kasprzyk J. (1998). Ekspertyza osmologiczna [Osmological expertise], unpublished master Metodyka pobierania, zabezpieczania i rozpoznawania zabezpieczonych slladow zapachowych ludzi (1998) [Methodology of collection, preservation and identification of preserved human scent traces], Legionowo-Warzawa: CSP-CLK KG Policji. Pimienow M. G., Starwojtow W. I. (1999). Kriminalisticzieskoje issliedowanije zapachowych sliedow czietowieka [Criminalistic examinations of human scent traces], unpublished manuscript. Riekomendacja po rabotie s zapachowymi sliedami czielowieka pri prowiedienii sliedstwiennych diejstwij i opieratiwno-rozysknych mieroprijatij [Guidelines for the treatment of human scent traces in trial and investigative practice] (1999), Moskwa: Ekspiertno-kriminalisticzieski centr MWD Rossii. Widacki J. (1998). Kilka uwag o identyfikacji zapachow ludzkich przez psa na uzytek procesu karnego [Some remarks on the identification of human scent by a dog for use in crimnal proceedings], Palestra, 11-12, 102-108. Wojcikiewicz J. (1998). Metaekspertyza osmologiczna [,,Osmological" metaopinion], Z Zagadnien Nauk Sadowych-Problems of Forensic Sciences, XXXVII, 158-164. From daemon Wed Sep 25 13:52:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8PHqbP07055 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8PHqau07049 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: bounced message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1781 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: JVGoodpast@atfhq.atf.treas.gov To: dforens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Looking for speaker on forensic accounting/white collar crime? Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:27:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings, I am seeking referrals for my father (Kenneth Goodpaster), who is a professor of business ethics in the M.B.A. program at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, MN. I was thinking that an interesting and appropriate guest speaker for his class would be an investigator who is active in/familiar with forensic accounting and/or white collar crime investigations. The class my father teaches uses the "case method" whereby actual events in the lives of corporations and individuals who work for them are discussed and the students are engaged in deciding how they would/should behave in the same situation. I envision this talk as not just a "scared straight" type of experience, nor should it reveal "tricks of the trade". But I think it would be interesting for the business students to hear the perspective of someone in law enforcement on the types of violations they see, the reasoning for the criminal statutes governing financial crimes, the scope and effects of white collar crime, etc. Any thoughts on this? Any potential speakers in the MN area? Possibilities include forensic accountants in private practice and state/federal white collar crime investigators (FBI, SEC, etc.). Thanks for any help! John Goodpaster John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Forensic Science Laboratory - Washington 1401 Research Blvd. Rockville, MD 20850 Phone: (301) 217-5724 JVGoodpast@atfhq.atf.treas.gov From daemon Wed Sep 25 16:16:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8PKG7310069 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8PKG5I10063 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm8-2.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/jjb-ns1) with ESMTP id g8PKFPlX028091 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020925123759.00aa92b0@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:41:16 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Job description question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 564 Would anyone care to comment on the following statement taken from a sworn declaration of a forensic scientist: "In 1986-1988, [agency name deleted] did not require that its serologists list all potential semen donors in our final reports. Rather, the primary purpose of our final report during that time period was to determine whether the defendant could be included or excluded as a potential semen donor." Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Sep 26 07:28:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QBSmX23911 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sr1.terra.com.br (sr1.terra.com.br [200.176.3.16]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QBSkI23905 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penha.terra.com.br (penha.terra.com.br [200.176.3.43]) by sr1.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129316E891; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:28:48 -0300 (EST) Received: from Micro1 (dl-sjp-rip-C8B12A9E.p001.terra.com.br [200.177.42.158]) by penha.terra.com.br (Postfix) with SMTP id 63D976826E; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:28:44 -0300 (EST) Message-ID: <015001c2654f$de088fc0$1a2ab1c8@Micro1> From: "Jorge Alejandro Paulete Scaglia" To: "Forensic-Science" Cc: "Forens List" Subject: Looking for Images Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:28:38 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g8QBSmY23911 Content-Length: 670 Dear Listmembers, Sorry for the cross posting. I´m looking for images (photos) taked in Crime Scene of sexual violence, that can be for a serial killer or not. If someone can help, send the images direct to my personal Email (peritus@e24x7.com.br). TIA, Prof. Dr. Jorge Alejandro Paulete Scaglia Forensic Examiner and Forensic Analyst Crime Scene and Forensic Entomology Expert Full Professor of Criminalistics at the Police Academy Health Security Engeneer peritus@e24x7.com.br http://www.pericias-forenses.com.br j_peritus@hotmail.com (MSN) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Sep 26 09:30:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QDUUm26877 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.14.14.35] (mac02pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QDUTI26871 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:30:29 -0400 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Christopher J. Basten" Subject: Request for usage Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1366 Dear List Members, I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media formats. Mr. Harris proposes to arrange the posted questions and answers by topic, to include only those discussions of a forensic nature and to ensure that the author's email and Forens-L are correctly cited. Volumes will be prepared on an annual basis with a full author and subject index. The volumes will be available in a print on demand format and also online through several legal databases. Content will not be edited. Those contributors who do not want their comments distributed beyond Forens-L are to provide their names directly to Mr. Harris at jharris@quincy.ca. I support Mr. Harris' proposal as it will make the valuable topics discussed on Forens-L and the expert's responsible, more readily available to the legal community. Mr. Harris welcomes your comments. Sincerely, C. Basten -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher J. Basten Phone: (919)515-1934 Bioinformatics Research Center Fax: (919)515-7315 North Carolina State University Email: basten@statgen.ncsu.edu Raleigh, NC 27695-7566 Location: 1523 Partners II Building URL: http://statgen.ncsu.edu/basten/basten.html From daemon Thu Sep 26 10:52:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QEqba29385 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web20418.mail.yahoo.com (web20406.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.94]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g8QEqaI29379 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20020926145236.38341.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.79.108.58] by web20406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:52:36 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Reply-To: johnlentini@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Job description question To: "Peter D. Barnett" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020925123759.00aa92b0@pop.nothingbutnet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2098 Given the obligations to tell the WHOLE truth, and to avoid leaving the jury with a false impression, I would say that if it was known that there were multiple donors, the report should have reflected that. Failure to include that information makes the scientist looks like a prosecution tool, and the failure to disclose it to the defense gets close to a Brady violation. As scientists, WE should determine what the question is, and not be limited by what one side or the other asks us to address. I have a similar case where a competent and thoughtful chemist is being brought to an arson trial where he will be asked to tell the jury that he found "toluene" in a sample, even though his report says unequivocally "no ignitable liquids were detected." He has told the prosecutor in as many ways as he knows how that the toluene is most likely a decomposition product(there is about 5 times as much styrene and methylstyrene), but the DA wants the jury to think the sample was really positive. I hope to be able to make the DAs plan backfire, but who knows what the jury might think. --- "Peter D. Barnett" wrote: > Would anyone care to comment on the following > statement taken from a sworn > declaration of a forensic scientist: > > "In 1986-1988, [agency name deleted] did not > require that its serologists > list all potential semen donors in our final > reports. Rather, the primary > purpose of our final report during that time > period was to determine > whether the defendant could be included or > excluded as a potential semen > donor." > > Pete Barnett > > Peter D. Barnett > Forensic Science Associates > Richmond CA > 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 > pbarnett@FSALab.com > > http://www.fsalab.com > ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From daemon Thu Sep 26 11:29:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QFT0N00836 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.jobe.net (www.jobe.net [208.18.94.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QFSxI00830 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dwhause [208.34.191.133] by mail.jobe.net (SMTPD32-7.06) id A7B11A500134; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:28:49 -0500 Message-ID: <025b01c26571$93ea2260$c8bf22d0@dwhause> From: "Dave Hause" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Request for usage Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:29:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 715 This sounds like a "for-profit" intention with the further plan to ignore copyright of the various posters unless they specifically object. Is there some intention to share the profits Mr. Harris hopes to make? Whether with individual posters or by donation of some reasonable royalties to the benefit of the forensic sciences (possibly in partial support of this list, to the AAFS, the Forensic Science Foundation, or...) Dave Hause, dwhause@jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Basten" I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media formats From daemon Thu Sep 26 12:06:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QG6LB02077 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QG6KI02071 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sdn-ap-002neomahp0421.dialsprint.net ([63.186.9.167] helo=forensicdna.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ub9e-0003vS-00; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:06:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9330BF.E770B935@forensicdna.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:07:27 -0700 From: Norah Rudin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Request for usage References: <025b01c26571$93ea2260$c8bf22d0@dwhause> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2397 Before we agree to this too quickly (Chris, are asking for input, or just giving us information?), I think it would be worth considering a few points. Part of the beauty of electronic lists and forums is that they are informal. This encourages people to speak freely (OK, sometimes perhaps a bit too freely) and generally encourages open discussion and dialogue. The minute the realization sets in that one's post will be memorialized in print and sold to attorneys, an automatic editing process sets in. Do I want to be confronted with this on the stand in 5 years? I would predict that this will result in both fewer postings (it takes more energy to worry about the post) and less frank discussion. The list has not been very active recently anyway, and this would inhibit posting even more. Second, it sounds like the target audience for this print volume is attorneys. If someone is going to benefit from the discussions on this list, it seems like they should also be willing to participate, at least to the minimal extent of subscribing. The list (unlike at least one defense attorney list that I know of) is open to everyone and subscribing is free and trivial. Finally, David House has valid points about both copyright and profit. I suggest that the ramifications of a decision to allow print publication of the posts in this forum be carefully considered before making a decision. Norah Rudin Norah Rudin, Ph.D. Forensic DNA Consultant norah@forensicdna.com http://www.forensicdna.com http://www.forensicdna.com/Bookstore/index.html Dave Hause wrote: This sounds like a "for-profit" intention with the further plan to ignore copyright of the various posters unless they specifically object. Is there some intention to share the profits Mr. Harris hopes to make? Whether with individual posters or by donation of some reasonable royalties to the benefit of the forensic sciences (possibly in partial support of this list, to the AAFS, the Forensic Science Foundation, or...) Dave Hause, dwhause@jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Basten" I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media formats --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From daemon Thu Sep 26 12:08:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QG87O02476 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sulphur.cix.co.uk (sulphur.cix.co.uk [212.35.225.149]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QG86I02470 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cix.co.uk (pc1-lich2-3-cust29.bir.cable.ntl.com [80.7.10.29]) by sulphur.cix.co.uk (8.11.3/CIX/8.11.3) with SMTP id g8QG80k04201; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:08:01 +0100 (BST) X-Envelope-From: Webster@forensic-science.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:09 +0100 (BST) From: Webster@forensic-science.co.uk (Mark Webster) Subject: Re: Job description question To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu CC: johnlentini@yahoo.com, Webster@forensic-science.co.uk In-Reply-To: <20020926145236.38341.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Reply-To: Webster@forensic-science.co.uk Message-Id: X-Ameol-Version: 2.52.2000, Windows 98 4.10.1998 ( ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 602 John Lentini wrote: > As scientists, WE should determine what the > question is, and not be limited by what one side > or the other asks us to address. Well said! In the UK, increasingly forensic scientists are adopting an approach inspired by Bayes theorem - "I have considered two alternatives: (a) the prosecution allegation and (b) what the defense say happened. In my opinion, my scientific findings are much more likely given alternative (a) rather than (b)" - when, in fact, the evidence also points to the possibility of something completely different having happened! Mark Webster From daemon Thu Sep 26 12:24:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QGO5B03049 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu (gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu [129.106.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QGO2I03043 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sbobst@localhost) by gsbs3.gs.uth.tmc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id LAA09186; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:26:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:26:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sol M. Bobst" To: Norah Rudin cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Request for usage In-Reply-To: <3D9330BF.E770B935@forensicdna.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3052 Although I am a newcomer to the list and the Forensics field, I hope my input adds to the discussion. I would concur with Dr. Rudin's comments regarding the list as an informal space for those in the profession to seek references or information relevant to their work. The content of posts in a forum is different than published, peer reviewed forensic data and analysis, or written opinions in legal consulting or testimony. Sol Bobst PhD Candidate UT-Houston On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Norah Rudin wrote: > > > Before we agree to this too quickly (Chris, are asking for input, or just > giving us information?), I think it would be worth considering a few points. > Part of the beauty of electronic lists and forums is that they are informal. > This encourages people to speak freely (OK, sometimes perhaps a bit too > freely) and generally encourages open discussion and dialogue. The > minute the realization sets in that one's post will be memorialized in > print and sold to attorneys, an automatic editing process sets in. > Do I want to be confronted with this on the stand in 5 years? I would predict > that this will result in both fewer postings (it takes more energy to worry > about the post) and less frank discussion. The list has not been > very active recently anyway, and this would inhibit posting even more. > Second, it sounds like the target audience for this print volume > is attorneys. If someone is going to benefit from the discussions > on this list, it seems like they should also be willing to participate, > at least to the minimal extent of subscribing. The list (unlike at least > one defense attorney list that I know of) is open to everyone and subscribing > is free and trivial. Finally, David House has valid points about > both copyright and profit. I suggest that the ramifications of a > decision to allow print publication of the posts in this forum be carefully > considered before making a decision. > Norah Rudin > Norah Rudin, Ph.D. > > Forensic DNA Consultant > > norah@forensicdna.com > > > http://www.forensicdna.com > > > > http://www.forensicdna.com/Bookstore/index.html > > > Dave Hause wrote: > This sounds like a "for-profit" intention with the > further plan to ignore > > copyright of the various posters unless they specifically object. > Is there > > some intention to share the profits Mr. Harris hopes to make? > Whether with > > individual posters or by donation of some reasonable royalties to the > > benefit of the forensic sciences (possibly in partial support of this > list, > > to the AAFS, the Forensic Science Foundation, or...) > > Dave Hause, dwhause@jobe.net > > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher J. Basten" > I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and > > reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media formats > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > text/html (html body -- converted) > --- > From daemon Thu Sep 26 13:20:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QHKKP04622 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.14.14.35] (mac02pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QHKJI04616 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3D9330BF.E770B935@forensicdna.com> References: <025b01c26571$93ea2260$c8bf22d0@dwhause> <3D9330BF.E770B935@forensicdna.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:20:20 -0400 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Christopher J. Basten" Subject: Re: Request for usage Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2213 >Before we agree to this too quickly (Chris, are asking for input, or just >giving us information?), I am asking for input. I am not assuming that I own the list or the list archives. I won't make any unilateral decisions. I agree that we should discuss the ramifications and decide on a general policy for the archived material. At present, only list members can download the archives. >I think it would be worth considering a few points. >Part of the beauty of electronic lists and forums is that they are informal. >This encourages people to speak freely (OK, sometimes perhaps a bit too >freely) and generally encourages open discussion and dialogue. The >minute the realization sets in that one's post will be memorialized in >print and sold to attorneys, an automatic editing process sets in. >Do I want to be confronted with this on the stand in 5 years? I would predict >that this will result in both fewer postings (it takes more energy to worry >about the post) and less frank discussion. The list has not been >very active recently anyway, and this would inhibit posting even more. >Second, it sounds like the target audience for this print volume >is attorneys. If someone is going to benefit from the discussions >on this list, it seems like they should also be willing to participate, >at least to the minimal extent of subscribing. The list (unlike at least >one defense attorney list that I know of) is open to everyone and subscribing >is free and trivial. Finally, David House has valid points about >both copyright and profit. I suggest that the ramifications of a >decision to allow print publication of the posts in this forum be carefully >considered before making a decision. >Norah Rudin >Norah Rudin, Ph.D. > >Forensic DNA Consultant > >norah@forensicdna.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher J. Basten Phone: (919)515-1934 Bioinformatics Research Center Fax: (919)515-7315 North Carolina State University Email: basten@statgen.ncsu.edu Raleigh, NC 27695-7566 Location: 1523 Partners II Building URL: http://statgen.ncsu.edu/basten/basten.html From daemon Thu Sep 26 13:49:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QHn4n05554 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.doj.ca.gov (mail.doj.ca.gov [167.10.5.240]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QHn2I05548 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SAHDCGWIA.hdcdojnet.state.ca.us ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.doj.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H3248Y00.NB7 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:50:58 -0700 Received: from DOM_GATEWAY-MTA by SAHDCGWIA.hdcdojnet.state.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:50:09 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.2 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:49:13 -0700 From: "Tom Fedor" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Job description question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-Guinevere: 1.1.14 ; Department of Justic Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2053 I have encountered, in one court case in particular, the difficulty that the Defense have pointedly ignored my suggestion that some alternative hypothesis be specified by them. And, indeed, in the US, at least, the Defense are under no obligation to provide any hypothesis, though they may argue one to the jury at the conclusion of the evidence. Mark, how is the situation different in the UK? Am I correct that the Courts have directed that juries may make adverse inference from the fact that Defense explanations are offered at some late date when they could have been offered by the defendant at interview? My testimony in that case became "Well, I don't know what the Defense hypothesis is to explain these lab test results, but here are several possible Defense-type hypotheses, and my calculations for each of them. I'd be happy to consider others." >>> Mark Webster 09/26/02 09:09AM >>> John Lentini wrote: > As scientists, WE should determine what the > question is, and not be limited by what one side > or the other asks us to address. Well said! In the UK, increasingly forensic scientists are adopting an approach inspired by Bayes theorem - "I have considered two alternatives: (a) the prosecution allegation and (b) what the defense say happened. In my opinion, my scientific findings are much more likely given alternative (a) rather than (b)" - when, in fact, the evidence also points to the possibility of something completely different having happened! Mark Webster ******************************************************************* Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ******************************************************************* From daemon Thu Sep 26 14:44:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QIiqS06940 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f205.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.205]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QIioI06934 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:44:52 -0700 Received: from 128.95.199.18 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:44:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.95.199.18] From: "Janice Chau" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Canine scenting: Literature search Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:44:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Sep 2002 18:44:52.0702 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCE287E0:01C2658C] Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 813 Hi, I am a recent graduate with a BS in Chemistry. I am very interested in pursuing a career in forensic science, especially forensic chemistry. Currently, I am working in a research lab acquiring many molecular biology skills and techniques. I've taken an online forensic class, as well as reading Richard Saferstein's Criminalistics: An Introduction to Forensic Science. I'm wondering if it's more ideal to get a Master's in Forensic Science before considering applying for a forensic position? Any suggestions how I can "get my foot in the door?" Any advice or ideas will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Janice Chau BS Chemistry Seattle, Washington _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Thu Sep 26 19:24:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QNOxH13095 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from casablanca.ucdavis.edu (casablanca.ucdavis.edu [169.237.104.164]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QNOuI13087 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from delano.ucdavis.edu (delano.ucdavis.edu [169.237.104.203]) by casablanca.ucdavis.edu (8.11.6/8.11.0/virus-scan-4.0.1) with ESMTP id g8QNOsU20238 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by delano.ucdavis.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.0/UCD4.1.2) id g8QNOq210702; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200209262324.g8QNOq210702@delano.ucdavis.edu> To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: forensic litterature From: "Ryan Davis" X-Errors-To: ryan77@magenta.ucdavis.edu X-Mailer: Geckomail-b16 X-Originating-IP: [152.79.91.49] X-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0) Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 768 Hi, I have recently graduate with a major in molecular biology and biochemistry and have been working in a molecular biology research lab for the past year. I wish one day to be working as a criminalist and that is the resaon why I have decided to contact you. I am a member of the CAC and have read Richard Saferstein's Criminalistics: An Introduction to Forensic Science. I am seeking recent litterature and websites that can be of any help. I am totaly excited about the possibility of one day being in the field of forensic. I also wish to ask for any suggestions that would be of any help. I want to thank you in advance for your responses and time, I would also love to hear of your excitement for the job or the bad side of it. Sincerely, Ryan From daemon Thu Sep 26 19:33:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8QNXPd13340 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (brain.vifp.monash.edu.au [130.194.125.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QNXNI13334 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_exchange.brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (nt_exchange [130.194.124.121]) by brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07952; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:33:02 +1000 (EST) Received: by nt_exchange.vifp.monash.edu.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:38:00 +1000 Message-ID: <07A064EA6042D4118A62009027F70E77182200@nt_exchange.vifp.monash.edu.au> From: Morris Odell To: "'Christopher J. Basten'" , "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: Request for usage Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:37:59 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1248 Hi Chris, > > I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and > reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media > formats. I am not in favour of this happening. What is an informal discussion group should not be enshrined as a written source that can come back to haunt individual posters in the future. I know most of the professionals here wouldn't post anything they wouldn't say elsewhere, but there are different nuances in the setting of a newsgroup than, say, in the witness box. Many defence lawyers already keep dossiers of what professionals have said in evidence and there's nothing wrong with that given the formal nature of the court. This is something completely different. I think the knowledge that this is happening would be a disincentive for posting here. > Mr. Harris proposes to arrange the posted questions and answers > by topic, to > include only those discussions of a forensic nature How is this going to be decided? Will particiapnts be consulted on what goes in what is removed? Will we have the right to make decisions about this? What will be next - transcripts of tearoom conversations? Morris Odell Forensic Physician Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine > From daemon Fri Sep 27 01:25:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8R5PJp18645 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barney.sfrn.dnai.com (barney.sfrn.dnai.com [208.59.199.24]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8R5PHI18636 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com (sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com [208.59.199.20]) by barney.sfrn.dnai.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g8R5JTf40594; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hppav.kruglaw.com (207-172-166-127.s127.tnt1.sfrn.ca.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.166.127]) by sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g8R5NFR07611; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:23:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kim@kruglaw.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020926222009.00a05c10@pop.sfrn.dnai.com> X-Sender: kmk@pop.sfrn.dnai.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:35:59 -0700 To: Morris Odell , "'Christopher J. Basten'" , "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" From: Kim Kruglick Subject: RE: Request for usage In-Reply-To: <07A064EA6042D4118A62009027F70E77182200@nt_exchange.vifp.mo nash.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1780 At 09:37 AM 9/27/2002 +1000, Morris Odell wrote: >Hi Chris, > > > > I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and > > reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media > > formats. > > Folks, As a criminal defense lawyer with a bit of experience litigating forensic issues, I've faced the interesting conundrum of providing answers to questions from law enforcement associated members of this list knowing the information might assist in a prosecution, somewhere...sometime. This is contrary to my general political approach to the law and something I would never do for someone on the prosecution corner of one of my cases. It initially took some thought. I've felt free to do so here because this is a place of some sanctuary from the usual adversarial environment in which we might otherwise meet. We're here to talk science, and our personal philosophies about science, exchange ideas, sometimes think off the top of our heads, and other times just blow off steam. (Poor Fred's cat). While I've often sought advice from those on the list, I've always made clear the purpose to which the information will be put, giving those who which to withhold their advice the opportunity to do so. I, for one, would like to keep the free flow of conversation and ideas on the list among those who chose to be members and participate. 'Sides, it would just about kill the Friday Follies. Back to my cave. Best regards, Kim Kruglick mailto:kim@kruglaw.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Forensic Resource and Criminal Law Search Site http://www.kruglaw.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Sep 27 08:56:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RCueG24230 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RCudP24224 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Robert Parsons" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4086 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:37:28 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Robert Parsons" ] >From forens-owner Thu Sep 26 17:37:27 2002 Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QLbQI11474 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:37:27 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: cocaine on one dollar bills X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:37:26 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: cocaine on one dollar bills Thread-Index: AcI81kfcExt/D7RrTZKRHcGt+HlCmAAhKK6w From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Pardon the picking up of old threads, but I've been traveling and have = gotten greatly behind on these e-mail discussion lists. In this state, as far as I know, whether or not the residue is = "marketable" is only relevant if the charge involves sale or = trafficking. For a charge of simple possession, whether or not the = amount is "marketable" is irrelevant. However, I have heard arguments = about whether or not the amount present was "usable," as in "able to be = taken as a dose of drug." To my knowledge, such arguments are rarely = successful because even if residue is not "usable," it is considered = evidence of a "usable" amount having been present at one time. Of = course, the courts must consider the totality of the circumstances and = plausible innocent reasons for such residue being in the defendant's = possession. Contamination from another source is one such possible = reason, provided the proposed mechanism is plausible. =20 We shouldn't read too much into the cocaine contamination of the money = supply, however. In the studies I am aware of, the amounts present were = so small they could only be detected using single ion monitoring to = boost mass spec sensitivity. Most labs use SIM only for tox work. In = the dosage drug analysis section, the mass spec is run using total ion = chromatograms, and will not detect these minute amounts. This truism = has been borne out in our own lab. We have only once or twice found = detectable residues on even wads of money using a general TIC procedure, = and we have processed many such exhibits over the years. =20 Bob Parsons, F-ABC=20 Forensic Chemist=20 Regional Crime Laboratory=20 at Indian River Community College=20 Ft. Pierce, FL=20 -----Original Message----- From: Cfwhiteh@aol.com [mailto:Cfwhiteh@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 19:18 To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: cocaine on one dollar bills So how small an amount of illicit substance is too small. Say you are = trying to determine if the material is "marketable." Are there any = limits. I imagine, for instance, an individual caught with a bag = containing cutting agent, which bag contained in the past, heroin. But = the only heroin left in the bag was residue. Suppose you have 25 grams = of cut and about .1% heroin. Is that "marketable" as illicit substance. = Do courts/jurisdictions recognize that as "marketable." I understand = that the DEA has offered some opinions concerning this in the past. But = I can not find the references.=20 This goes to how much illicit substance can we have on the 20 dollar = bill or any before we can be charged with possession. =20 Fred Whitehurst=20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Sep 27 08:56:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RCuwI24270 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RCuvj24264 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Robert Parsons" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3903 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:53:35 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Robert Parsons" ] >From forens-owner Thu Sep 26 17:53:34 2002 Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8QLrYI11651 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:53:35 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] (fwd) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:53:35 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] (fwd) Thread-Index: AcJHfmi6yM8ID2vNRlOftactbxhzDAAI+CEg From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g8QLrYI11652 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" The only eyesight requirements I have ever seen for a position in a forensic laboratory are that the applicant cannot be color blind. Other than that, so long as the person's vision is correctable via lenses, and so long as they are able to use microscopes and other instrumentation, I can't see any reason for specific vision requirements. Some agencies which require their forensic scientists to become sworn officers may have more stringent eyesight requirements, but that would be because of standards for law enforcement officers and have nothing to do with forensic science positions specifically. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Basten [mailto:cbasten@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 08:45 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:01:01 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Buckleton, John" ] >From forens-owner Sun Aug 18 22:01:00 2002 Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g7J20ue15759 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Mon Aug 19 14:00:49 2002 +1200 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:00:48 +1200 Message-ID: From: "Buckleton, John" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: eyesight Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:00:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain May I ask the list whether they had any eyesight requirements in Physical Evidence, toolmarks or firearms for: 1. recruitment 2. established staff. I would be interested in those who had AND those who had none. :-) Johnny Appleseed Buckleton ESR PB 92021 Auckland New Zealand Ph. +64 +9 8153-904 Fax +64 +9 8496-046 Good planets are hard to find From daemon Fri Sep 27 08:57:38 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RCvc824424 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RCvbs24418 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:57:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: Senior high school student (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 833 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:33:14 EDT From: SciGuyPate@aol.com To: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Senior high school student Hello, I know you get this email from a lot of high school students. I am a senior in high school and I have been looking for colleges to apply for and I have been thinking about New York University, Chapman University, and Duke University. I am not sure if these schools are well known for forensic science but what colleges would you recommend. I would like to be in the city like New York. How do you know if a college is well known for its forensics program? I just want to make sure I choose the right college for my profession and thank you very much for helping a future forensic investigator! I appreciate any comments. Adam Pate From daemon Fri Sep 27 09:00:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RD08M24818 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.14.14.35] (mac02pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RD07I24812 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:00:07 -0400 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Christopher J. Basten" Subject: Request for usage update Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1225 Dear List Members, Mr. Harris has asked me to forward the following in response to the concerns raised over his proposal. Thank you for taking time to consider this request. It was never my intention to jeopardize the environment under which members contribute and participate in this forum. The information discussed is of value to the many different levels of law enforcement and the legal community ranging from investigators and scientists to attorney's and judges, who might value a reference source rather than logging onto the forum. Compiling this information into a collated, indexed reference source, available to a wider audience, may have attracted new members. Thank you again for considering this request. I will not be pursuing this proposal further. I remain, respectfully, Joel Harris -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher J. Basten Phone: (919)515-1934 Bioinformatics Research Center Fax: (919)515-7315 North Carolina State University Email: basten@statgen.ncsu.edu Raleigh, NC 27695-7566 Location: 1523 Partners II Building URL: http://statgen.ncsu.edu/basten/basten.html From daemon Fri Sep 27 14:08:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RI8IA08038 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.montanavision.net (hermes.montanavision.net [216.220.30.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RI8HI08032 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [216.129.234.205] (216-129-234-205.vnet-inc.com [216.129.234.205]) by hermes.montanavision.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21041 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:08:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mirror@3rivers.net) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:08:14 -0600 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: maria guzman Subject: Re: vitamin toxicity Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 997 > I'm forwarding with permission a question that has been circulating on a > paleoanthropology list, with the hope that someone can perhaps offer more > specific information. The subject at hand was a H. erectus fossil that > reportedly showed symptoms of hypervitaminosis A and D. > Can anyone enlighten me on how much liver it might take, and how soon, to > cause possible death? And even what non-arctic mammals might possess such > livers? > > > Probably depends on the concentration in the liver at the time. I do know > > that this kind of fatality has been reported not uncommonly in western >polar > > explorers, who made the mistake of eating polar bear and seal liver. >There's > > probably literature on this. I also don't know if the poisoning is >normally > > acute or chronic, but I do recall reading that vit A (and D and E) are > > highly lipophilic, so they would be stored in high concentrations in >organs > > with lots of their own lipids. > > Maria Guzman > > > > From daemon Fri Sep 27 14:14:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RIEJN08363 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RIEII08357 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini8gd.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.34.13] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17uzd3-0001wt-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:14:18 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020927104218.02b86640@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:13:10 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: Eavesdropping In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1550 In re the topic of compiling the list proceedings: First, I agree that what is written here would be of interest to a lot of people, just as students would find listening to teachers chat in the faculty lounge valuable, and that's why I publish instructions on _How to Subscribe_ in each issue of the CACNews (newsletter of the Calif. Assoc. of Criminalists). But, unlike the faculty lounge, anyone is free to join this group. As for the candid nature of the communications, I agree with the group in opposition to compiling our writings, but I wouldn't want to try to defend that position in court. I'll bet these writings would be considered "public domain," as they are "published" to servers and subscribers all over the world, and not restricted to any particular community, such as law enforcement. But exactly how to define public domain isn't so easy, see http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134471290_digitalrights10.html for a nice discussion. A good question for discussion has emerged: Who owns the republishing rights to what is written on this or any other list? The author? The list owner? A quick Google search reveals a lot of lists that prohibit republishing without permission from the list owner. I have always contacted the author when I want to request reprint permission. I wouldn't want to dampen candid responses, but one should always carefully consider what he or she is sending may be read or stored or republished without permission before hitting that return key. John Houde From daemon Fri Sep 27 14:16:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RIG5M08560 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web20419.mail.yahoo.com (web20407.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.95]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g8RIG4I08551 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20020927181605.68343.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.79.108.58] by web20407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:16:05 PDT Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:16:05 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Reply-To: johnlentini@yahoo.com Subject: RE: Request for usage To: Kim Kruglick , Morris Odell , "'Christopher J. Basten'" , "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020926222009.00a05c10@pop.sfrn.dnai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 633 I agree with the general sentiment that there should not be a permanent record made of what we say here, but folks should know that I have in the past typed a name or a subject into a yahoo search box and been directed to a forens-l discussion. These discussions are not "just between us." ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From daemon Fri Sep 27 14:22:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RIMg008841 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scsh2 (scsh2.jjay.cuny.edu [209.2.54.242]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RIMfI08835 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.scms2.jjay.cuny.edu by scms2.jjay.cuny.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.9 (built Jul 29 2002)) id <0H3300401YSVF4@scms2.jjay.cuny.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jjay.cuny.edu (scms2 [10.3.253.245]) by scms2.jjay.cuny.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.9 (built Jul 29 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3400B6B03LYM@scms2.jjay.cuny.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.203.128.1] by scms2.jjay.cuny.edu (mshttpd); Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:16:33 -0400 From: vkbarker@jjay.cuny.edu Subject: Re: Request for usage To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 0.9 (built Jul 29 2002) Content-language: en Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3276 I typically follow the conversations here because they are informal and opinions are expressed from people with a wide variety of backgrounds. I'd like to throw a few more questions/comments out for consideration-- who IS Joel Harris and what does he get out of reprinting the material? Who is funding this project, i.e. his time, the service, the ongoing maintenance of the material? In my experience, some form of written contract would be required that outlines the details (what's being used, for how long, exactly what format, $$, liability issues, copyright issues & assignment, etc). To reprint the posts from this forum would be of little benefit as a valid reference unless the author's detailed background was also included, and from the posts so far, no one wants informal discussion cited as their opinion (educated or otherwise) in an external - or worse yet- legal forum. Since I signed on to this forum, it has been my impression that this is a place to bounce ideas around and explore many angles of questions-- an intellectual volley of forensic science quandaries rather than a source for Answers. If the legal community wants an expert opinion, they can hire a qualified expert. An appeal of Forens-L is that it isn't binding. That said, I wish you all a magnificent weekend. Jenn King-Barker Mount Sinai School of Medicine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Basten" Date: Thursday, September 26, 2002 9:30 am Subject: Request for usage > Dear List Members, > > I received a request from Joel Harris asking permission to collate and > reprint Forens-L questions and answers into different media > formats. Mr. > Harris proposes to arrange the posted questions and answers by > topic, to > include only those discussions of a forensic nature and to ensure > that the > author's email and Forens-L are correctly cited. > > Volumes will be prepared on an annual basis with a full author and > subjectindex. The volumes will be available in a print on demand > format and also > online through several legal databases. Content will not be edited. > Those contributors who do not want their comments distributed beyond > Forens-L are to provide their names directly to Mr. Harris at > jharris@quincy.ca. > > I support Mr. Harris' proposal as it will make the valuable topics > discussed on Forens-L and the expert's responsible, more readily > availableto the legal community. > > Mr. Harris welcomes your comments. > > Sincerely, > > C. Basten > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > Christopher J. Basten Phone: (919)515-1934 > Bioinformatics Research Center Fax: (919)515-7315 > North Carolina State University Email: basten@statgen.ncsu.edu > Raleigh, NC 27695-7566 Location: 1523 Partners II Building > URL: http://statgen.ncsu.edu/basten/basten.html > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > This email has been automatically scanned for viruses. > However, it might still contain undetectable virus(es). > Addressee should take precautions in opening any unsolicited emails. > -- DoIT, John Jay College of Criminal Justice > > > > From daemon Fri Sep 27 14:34:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8RIYUw09259 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.unioncountynj.org ([209.236.148.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8RIYSI09243 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unioncountynj.org ([209.236.148.15]) by home.unioncountynj.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-69775U1900L200S0V35) with ESMTP id org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:41:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3D94A30C.833770F6@unioncountynj.org> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:27:24 -0400 From: fgarland@unioncountynj.org (Frank Garland) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Basten , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Senior high school student (fwd) References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2216 Adam, If you have the ability to attend a university such as you have mentioned then I would suggest that you attend one of those schools. All of those universities have excellent science programs. NYU, in particular has an extremely interesting engineering program that I suggest you look into. Forensic science is the application of science in the judicial system. With that in mind you can obtain a bachelor's degree in a science which interests you. After obtaining your degree you may decide to go directly into the forensic field or, if you wish, pursue a masters or Ph.D. in forensic science from many of the fine institutions which offer those degrees. You may also opt for a career in a science application other than forensics. To sum up don't judge a university solely on its forensic program. If you have the talent and drive to attend a university of the caliber you mention you may be best served to accept their challenge. If you still have an interest in the forensic sciences after you have graduated from NYU with a degree in chemistry (for example), send me a resume and if we have an opening I'll make sure you are interviewed. We'll supply the necessary training in forensics. Good luck in your academic pursuits. Frank Garland Sr. Forensic Chemist UCPO Lab 300 North Ave. E Westfield, NJ 07090 Basten wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:33:14 EDT > From: SciGuyPate@aol.com > To: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Senior high school student > > Hello, > > I know you get this email from a lot of high school students. I am a senior > in high school and I have been looking for colleges to apply for and I have > been thinking about New York University, Chapman University, and Duke > University. I am not sure if these schools are well known for forensic > science but what colleges would you recommend. I would like to be in the > city like New York. How do you know if a college is well known for its > forensics program? I just want to make sure I choose the right college for > my profession and thank you very much for helping a future forensic > investigator! I appreciate any comments. > > Adam Pate From daemon Sat Sep 28 00:29:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8S4TMw20523 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.montanavision.net (hermes.montanavision.net [216.220.30.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8S4TLI20517 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [216.129.234.142] (216-129-235-29.vnet-inc.com [216.129.235.29]) by hermes.montanavision.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA52236 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:29:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mirror@3rivers.net) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200209280359.g8S3x0f20125@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:29:15 -0600 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: maria guzman Subject: Re: vitamin toxicity Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 629 Hi - I'm not sure how my original message about hypervitaminosis A & D arrived in a 'forwarded' or >quotes format, but I'm reposting the first half below to avoid any confusion: I'm forwarding with permission a question that has been circulating on a paleoanthropology list, with the hope that someone can perhaps offer more specific information. The subject at hand is a H. erectus fossil that reportedly showed symptoms of hypervitaminosis A and D. Can anyone enlighten me on how much liver it might take, and how soon, to cause possible death? And even what non-arctic mammals might possess such livers? Maria Guzman From daemon Sat Sep 28 01:27:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8S5Rq221298 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f46.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.46]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8S5RpI21283 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:27:51 -0700 Received: from 164.100.193.40 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 05:27:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.100.193.40] From: "anil aggrawal" To: mirror@3rivers.net, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: vitamin toxicity Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 05:27:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2002 05:27:51.0822 (UTC) FILETIME=[CA3ED2E0:01C266AF] Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1787 You might want to visit our Forensic Toxicology page, where we have a full article on Vitamin A toxicity and all the related info that you ask. Hope it helps. For the link please go to the following URL http://marygoldgupta.freeyellow.com/index.html Thanks Anil Aggrawal >From: maria guzman >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Re: vitamin toxicity >Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:08:14 -0600 > > > > I'm forwarding with permission a question that has been circulating on a > > paleoanthropology list, with the hope that someone can perhaps offer more > > specific information. The subject at hand was a H. erectus fossil that > > reportedly showed symptoms of hypervitaminosis A and D. > > Can anyone enlighten me on how much liver it might take, and how soon, to > > cause possible death? And even what non-arctic mammals might possess such > > livers? > > > > > Probably depends on the concentration in the liver at the time. I do know > > > that this kind of fatality has been reported not uncommonly in western > >polar > > > explorers, who made the mistake of eating polar bear and seal liver. > >There's > > > probably literature on this. I also don't know if the poisoning is > >normally > > > acute or chronic, but I do recall reading that vit A (and D and E) are > > > highly lipophilic, so they would be stored in high concentrations in > >organs > > > with lots of their own lipids. > > > > Maria Guzman > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: ------------------------------------------ Click Here ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From daemon Mon Sep 30 16:05:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8UK5L513861 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8UK5Ki13855 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini8ai.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.33.82] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17w6n4-0003H9-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:05:17 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930125410.02710c70@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:03:45 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: Calf. Assoc. of Criminalists Seminar In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g8UK5Ki13856 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 753 Forgive me if this notice has already gone out, but if it hasn't: Anyone who is interested in keeping up with the latest developments in criminalistics as well as anyone who just wants to catch up with friends in the "biz"-- join me at the Huntington Beach Hilton in Huntington Beach, California from October 14-19 for the ONE HUNDREDTH CAC Seminar. Featured workshops include: ARSON-FUN WITH FIRE SCENES: A live-burn Workshop on Fire Behavior and Scene Examination DNA (Various Topics) LOW LEVEL ALCOHOL IMPAIRMENT TECHNICAL WRITING FOR THE FORENSIC SPECIALIST – TIPS AND TRENDS WOUND PATHOLOGY For more information, visit www.cacnews.org and click on "Upcoming Events." 'course I'll be there, peddling my crime lab book! :-) John Houde From daemon Mon Sep 30 16:51:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g8UKpl415363 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8UKpji15357 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:51:45 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Calf. Assoc. of Criminalists Seminar X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:51:43 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Calf. Assoc. of Criminalists Seminar Thread-Index: AcJovTW3rDFffD7yRJiMI9AKMTtImQABaH3g From: "Robert Parsons" To: "John Houde" , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g8UKpki15358 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1333 John, Does the CAC publish meeting proceeds or selected papers in the CAC newsletter? I'd be interested in getting a copy of the low level alcohol impairment presentation, or any printed reference materials used in the workshop, if that's available and permissible. Thanks. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: John Houde [mailto:john@calicopress.com] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 16:04 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Calf. Assoc. of Criminalists Seminar Forgive me if this notice has already gone out, but if it hasn't: Anyone who is interested in keeping up with the latest developments in criminalistics as well as anyone who just wants to catch up with friends in the "biz"-- join me at the Huntington Beach Hilton in Huntington Beach, California from October 14-19 for the ONE HUNDREDTH CAC Seminar. Featured workshops include: ARSON-FUN WITH FIRE SCENES: A live-burn Workshop on Fire Behavior and Scene Examination DNA (Various Topics) LOW LEVEL ALCOHOL IMPAIRMENT TECHNICAL WRITING FOR THE FORENSIC SPECIALIST - TIPS AND TRENDS WOUND PATHOLOGY For more information, visit www.cacnews.org and click on "Upcoming Events." 'course I'll be there, peddling my crime lab book! :-) John Houde From daemon Mon Sep 30 20:20:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g910K5e18985 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g910K4i18979 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CrazyKoopa@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.19c.9a6e3ee (4568) for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:19:51 -0400 (EDT) From: CrazyKoopa@aol.com Message-ID: <19c.9a6e3ee.2aca4427@aol.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:19:51 EDT Subject: new member To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 581 Hello my name is Jen and I am new to this forum. I am a junior biology major at Kings College in Pa I have a question that, I was hoping someone here could answer. I am currently in search for an internship in a crime lab, I live in Pa but I am willing to go pretty much anywhere to find one especially if it is paid. I was hoping someone here could give me an idea on where to search or who to call. Thanks so much in advance for your help. Jen --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html ---