From daemon Wed Oct 2 05:00:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9290Os24176 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9290Mi24170 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89CB412C9 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:33:12 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.200.120.251]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:33:14 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3D9AB274.64532F8F@vsnl.net> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:16:45 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Criteria for Simultaneous Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SSIDS) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3208 Dear List, Can someone please tell me all the criteria for Simultaneous sudden infant death syndrome (SSIDS)? I have access only to an abstract of this paper. And I am sending it for all to see. As is evident from this summary, the paper talks of three criteria. I would love to know them. Thanks. Here is the abstract. ************ TI: Simultaneous sudden infant death syndrome: a proposed definition and worldwide review of cases. AU: Koehler,-S-A; Ladham,-S; Shakir,-A; Wecht,-C-H AD: Graduate Program of Forensic Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. SO: Am-J-Forensic-Med-Pathol. 2001 Mar; 22(1): 23-32 AB: Epidemiologic studies of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), the leading cause of death of infants during the postperinatal period (7-365 days), have mainly focused on the deaths of single infants. Simultaneous sudden infant death syndrome (SSIDS), the death of a pair of twins occurring at the same time, has received limited attention within the medical community. To the authors' knowledge, this article is the first to describe the 41 SSIDS cases cited in the world literature from 1900 to 1998 by the location of death, a summary of the circumstances surrounding the deaths, and evaluation of these cases in terms of a proposed definition of SSIDS. This evaluation critiques whether the 41 pairs of SSIDS cases adhere to a newly proposed definition of SSIDS. Twin infant deaths must meet all three criteria to be considered SSIDS. The study found that only 12 pairs of twins met all three criteria (29.2%), nine pairs met two criteria (21.9%), alternative cause of death was offered in five pairs of twins (12.1%) and in the remaining 15 pairs (36.6%), only limited information was available; therefore, no conclusions could be reached. ******** Many thanks for your time. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Wed Oct 2 06:43:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g92AhxG25458 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 06:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g92Ahvi25452 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 06:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9108741169 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:17:22 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.197.207.198]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:17:25 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3D9ACD70.DEBF6653@vsnl.net> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:11:52 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Nomenclature of VNTRs Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2832 Dear List, Can somebody tell me please how VNTRs (Variable Number Tandem Repeats) are named? I have a copy of Inman and Rudin's "An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis" (1st Edition, 1997). On page 124, they go as far as telling us: The D1S80 core repeat sequence is 16 bp in length, and most alleles contain between 14 and 41 repeat units. But no further guidance is offered. I do know that VNTRs are designated by the length of the core repeat unit and the number of contiguous repeat units. But I could not figure out how to fit in the figures 16, 14 or 41 in the name D1S80. Can somebody help please? Thanks. I am also looking for the nomenclature of VNTR D17S30 locus. A recent Chinese paper (Fa-Yi-Xue-Za-Zhi. 1998; 14(1): 8-9, 61) suggests that this locus could be used in forensic paternity test in China, because the inheritance of D17S30 locus coincides with Mendelian law as simple co-dominant. Sounds an interesting paper to me. And I thought, "Could we say from this name, which chromosome number this locus sits on?" or "What are the numbers 17 and 30 doing in this name, and what is the significance of D and S? Do they stand for something? It appears to me that D stands for the chromosome number, but then there are so many names in which D simply does not appear. The names of STRs such as CSF1PO, FGA, TH01, TPOX and VWA were quite incomprehensible to me. Can somebody explain how these names came into being? Thanks for any help rendered by this group. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Wed Oct 2 11:23:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g92FNIH02073 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wss100.berkeley.edu (wss100.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.64]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g92FNHi02067 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by wss100.berkeley.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g92FNGp07618; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:23:16 -0700 Received: from roo.uclink.berkeley.edu (12-233-51-232.client.attbi.com [12.233.51.232]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g92FNGXI008485; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20021002075213.00b32af0@uclink.berkeley.edu> X-Sender: cbrenner@uclink.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:30:21 -0700 To: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: Charles Brenner Subject: Re: Nomenclature of VNTRs Cc: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" In-Reply-To: <3D9ACD70.DEBF6653@vsnl.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1353 At 04:11 PM 10/2/02 +0530, Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote: >Can somebody tell me please how VNTRs (Variable Number Tandem Repeats) are >named? .... the nomenclature of VNTR D17S30 locus. D17 does indeed refer to chromosome 17 (doubtless from the latin Dhromosome, meaning chromosome). You will also see DY and DX, but never D99. S30 is a meaningless catalogue number, which doesn't even reflect the physical position. >The names of STRs such as CSF1PO, FGA, TH01, TPOX and VWA were quite >incomprehensible to me. Can somebody explain how these names came into being? Typically they are names borrowed from genes in close proximity with the STR. For example, vWA refers to the Swedish discoverer of von Willebrande's disease. Maybe these early STR's were located via linkage studies in the time before chromosomal localization was usually possible. TH01 stands for tyrosine hydroxylase. The correct spelling is a mystery that I would like to resolve. A knowledgeable and trustworthy geneticist convincingly assured me that TH01 (with a zero) is correct. More recently though, another biologist, who inspires even more confidence, insisted it is THO1 (with a letter), and supported his claim by pointing out that genes never end with two digits -- dismissing TC11 ("Tom Cassidy -11", an early name for this same STR) as a joke. Charles From daemon Wed Oct 2 11:59:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g92FxRu03157 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web10404.mail.yahoo.com (web10404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.96]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g92FxQi03151 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20021002155926.12076.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [152.3.133.112] by web10404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:59:26 PDT Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:59:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Diane Satterfield Subject: Question To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 936 I am interested in going into forensic science field. I have a BS in Biology, some molecular background and lot of experience in research, especially with animals. I am currently working in the laboratory animal research field. I was wondering where I need to go from here. There is not a college close by with a forensics program. I am 35 and if I could get into the field without going back to school that would be wonderful. I guess my question really is what kind of background do I need for the field and how do I go about finding a job in forensics? Diane Satterfield Henderson North Carolina Diane Henderson www.geocities.com/misspiggy_123/pp2.html www.geocities.com/misspiggy_123/clubdepot_pp3.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Oct 2 12:54:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g92Gsat04989 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g92GsZi04983 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-vcaurk0.dsl.mindspring.com ([216.175.110.128] helo=forensicdna.com) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17wmlg-0002bU-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:54:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3D9B24D0.DB8A3F9A@forensicdna.com> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:54:41 -0700 From: Norah Rudin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Re: Nomenclature of VNTRs References: <4.3.1.2.20021002075213.00b32af0@uclink.berkeley.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2223 Charles Brenner wrote: At 04:11 PM 10/2/02 +0530, Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote: >Can somebody tell me please how VNTRs (Variable Number Tandem Repeats) are >named? .... the nomenclature of VNTR D17S30 locus. D17 does indeed refer to chromosome 17 (doubtless from the latin Dhromosome, meaning chromosome). The D stands for DNA You will also see DY and DX, but never D99. S30 is a meaningless catalogue number, which doesn't even reflect the physical position. The "S" actually stands for "single-copy". A "Z" would indicate multiple copies of the sequence in the genome. The 30 is more or less the order of discovery, but effectively is just a catalogue number >The names of STRs such as CSF1PO, FGA, TH01, TPOX and VWA were quite >incomprehensible to me. Can somebody explain how these names came into being? Typically they are names borrowed from genes in close proximity with the STR. For example, vWA refers to the Swedish discoverer of von Willebrande's disease. Maybe these early STR's were located via linkage studies in the time before chromosomal localization was usually possible. TH01 stands for tyrosine hydroxylase. The correct spelling is a mystery that I would like to resolve. A knowledgeable and trustworthy geneticist convincingly assured me that TH01 (with a zero) is correct. More recently though, another biologist, who inspires even more confidence, insisted it is THO1 (with a letter), and supported his claim by pointing out that genes never end with two digits -- dismissing TC11 ("Tom Cassidy -11", an early name for this same STR) as a joke. The current forensic literature all refers to the locus as TH01 (with a zero). Some older forensic literature used an "O" (the letter). The rest of the world just uses TH, for tyrosine hydroxylase. Norah Rudin PS - The 2nd edition of An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis was published last year. -- Norah Rudin, Ph.D. Forensic DNA Consultant norah@forensicdna.com http://www.forensicdna.com http://www.forensicdna.com/Bookstore/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From daemon Fri Oct 4 09:09:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g94D9Xl20489 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherlock.holmes.nl (sherlock.holmes.nl [195.169.99.99]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g94D9Vi20483 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sherlock.holmes.nl (Postfix, from userid 8) id 8C425754; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:55:33 +0200 (CEST) Comments: Passed Amavis/Sophos Anti-Virus for Unix (sherlock.holmes.nl) Received: from mailserver.gl.minjus.nl (nfi.minjus.nl [10.1.0.134]) by sherlock.holmes.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8B374D for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:55:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: by MAILSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:02:52 +0200 Message-ID: <6C515CBE2D1FD6119E8900B0D0685C8068DD5B@MAILSERVER> From: Gerard van der Peyl To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: IRMS - forensic applications Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:02:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5145 Dear colleagues, The potential for forensic applications of Stable Isotope Mass Spectrometry (or Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry - SIMS or IRMS) has been recognized for some time but has been applied only sparsely. In the UK a forensic isotopes Network has been founded to develop the scope of stable isotope techniques in forensic applications. As part of this initiative a two day meeting was organized September 16-17( www.forensic-isotopes.rdg.ac.uk/index.htm ). Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry is based on the accurate measurement of very small differences in isotope ratio's relative to a standard. Isotope ratios studied are normally 2H, 13C, 15N and 18O relative to the more abundant isotope. Sometimes also other isotopes as eg 34S and 37Cl are studied. Pure compounds or mixtures of compounds are converted into appropriate gases (eg CO2 for 13C/12C). Different isotope ions are afterwards separated in a sector mass spectrometer and simultaneously quantified. Minute but well detectable and quantifiable isotopic variations are introduced through geographical factors and subsequent biological, chemical and physico-chemical processes (diet, (photo)synthesis, extraction, evaporation). ( www.forensic-isotopes.rdg.ac.uk/techniq/techniq.htm ). Appropriate mixtures of compounds can be separated in-line using Gas Chromatography. Good isotopic precisions for 13C and 15N can be obtained for 5-10 ug of the element (bulk applications) or eg 10 ng C on-column (GC-application). Laser ablation applications enabling spatial resolution are presently developed. Presently foreseen applications are for drugs, explosives, gunpowder, fibres, textiles, glass, paints, papers, inks, plastics, latex surgical gloves, adhesives, arson accelerants, mineral oils, soils, building materials (eg marble), biological materials (eg pine needles), endangered plant and animal species as well as a wide variety of other materials. One of the other applications is eg differentiation between natural testosterone present in the human body and testosterone that has been added for doping purposes. This discrimination of endogeneous/exogeneous compounds can also be used for other toxicological forensic applications. In general I expect to obtain complementary results to other forensic elemental 'fingerprinting' techniques such as LA-ICPMS. During the two day meeting some 55 attendants were present from forensic groups (FSS, ATF, FBI, NFI, Forensic Alliance, Forensic Science Northern Ireland, Laboratoire des Douanes de Paris, Forensic Science Unit - University of Strathclyde, Forensic Explosive Laboratory - Dstl, Forensic Science Unit - King's College, Forensic Geoscience Unit - University of London), various police organisations (Metropolitan Police, Australian Federal Police, Police Scientific Development Branch, Scientific Support Northumbria Police, Hampshire Constabulary) and R&D institutes. Presentations were given on IRMS fundamentals, possibilites and pitfalls. Results were presented for explosives, drugs, arson, toxicological and soil forensic applications. A report of the meeting and the presentations will be published in a couple of months. Possibilities were discussed to prioritize and further develop forensic applications as well as to broaden participation from both forensic groups and stable isotope R&D groups. An offer for co-operation was made by the EU supported NITECRIME thematic network (http://www.ifr.bbsrc.ac.uk/nitecrime/default.html ) that is also involved in forensic applications of stable isotopes, especially using ICPMS. Possibly a joint one-day workshop on forensic applications of stable isotopes will be organized as part of the large triannual European Academy of Forensic Science 2003 meeting in Istanbul (http://eafs2003.enfsi.org/site/sections.htm ). Three working groups were set up to further explore and develop applications for explosives, drugs (XTC, cocaine) and other fields. Each working group consists of representatives from forensic groups, police authorities and IRMS-groups. In a few months each group is expected to prepare a report with proposals for applications. A meeting of interested active parties is foreseen for the spring of 2003. Prioritisation of applications, relations to ENFSI and NITECRIME as well as (EU?) funding possibilities will be topics for discussion. Because of the above I would like to ask if you are interested to join this forensic isotopes Network, give your input on applications and priorities as well as perhaps join one of the working groups. Alternatively you can express your interest in this initiative so that we can keep you informed on further developments. Please feel free to forward this mail to potentially interested parties. The coming days untill October 2 I shall be out of the lab but urgent mail will be handled by one of my colleagues. Yours, Dr Gerard J.Q. van der Peijl, Forensic Scientist, Netherlands Forensic Institute of the Netherlands Ministry of Justice, PO Box 3110, 2280 GC Rijswijk, The Netherlands tel +31 70 413 53 53 fax +31 70 413 54 54 e-mail: g.van.der.peyl@nfi.minjus.nl www.forensischinstituut.nl From daemon Fri Oct 4 19:24:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g94NOB105879 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g94NOAi05873 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:24:11 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: AAFS college accreditation Standards? x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:24:10 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AAFS college accreditation Standards? Thread-Index: AcJUaFwsuJa6pLTvSm+jCWax9fag5QBfy2Wg From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g94NOAi05874 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3792 I don't know anything about your university, but I can tell you that there are no accreditation standards for forensic science academic programs, other than the general accreditation standards of the applicable regional Association of Colleges and Schools. However, the AAFS is investigating the possibility of developing an accreditation program for schools offering forensic science degrees. That effort is described in this excerpt from AAFS President Dr. Graham Jones' "President's Message" in the May/June 2002 issue of Academy News: "One of the new committees, the Forensic Education Programs Accreditation Committee (FEPAC), chaired by José Almirall, has been formed to examine the feasibility of developing a program to accredit university-level forensic science programs. This is an initiative led directly from an NIJ working group (Technical Working Group on Forensic Science Training and Education). TWGED was formed because of concerns that some programs billed as "forensic science" did not have an adequate scientific foundation, and that graduates in their programs lacked the basic skills required by crime laboratory and other forensic employers. With input from several members of the Academy and stakeholders from other organizations, the TWGED consensus report is nearing completion. The AAFS FEPAC initiative will build on the recommendations of the TWGED report to develop a program that will offer accreditation to those university-based forensic science programs that meet minimum criteria for scientific and forensic content. The American Chemical Society (ACS) already runs a similar program for the accreditation of chemistry degrees. Membership of the FEPAC Committee has been balanced between academic staff of universities offering forensic science degrees and from the forensic science management of crime laboratories. FEPAC will represent an important milestone in contributions of the Academy to the future of forensic science education." The American Board of Criminalistics is also looking at the possibility of sanctioning (officially approving) forensic science courses and academic programs, but is starting small, with individual short courses. If the AAFS program becomes well established, the ABC may decide there is no reason to do it's own sanctioning of academic programs. Time will tell, but as of right now there are no accreditation programs specifically addressing university forensic science academic programs. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Justin McCarty [mailto:irish_pride@planet-save.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 19:07 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: AAFS college accreditation Standards? Hello all, I am new to this system, so please bear with me ok. I am a student at a community college in Sheridan Wyoming, but obviously I cannot get all of what I need here, so I have inquired into the Chemistry\Criminalistics Program at the University of Wisconsin @ Platteville. Please does anyone know how this college stands up versus other alternatives. I also wanted to know more about the accreditation standards for AAFS. Does AAFS have accreditation standards? If so does anyone know of a list that has what schools are accredited? Thank you all in advance for your help, any input is greatly appreciated. Justin McCarty Veteran USCG _____________________________________________________________ Check out Stonyfield Farm at Stonyfield.com to get E-Coupons for our yummy yogurt and "Moosletters" focusing on organic info, recipes, nutritionist advice, profiles of folks who are making a difference and ways you can make a difference too! Visit them at http://www.planet-save.com/stonyfield.htm From daemon Fri Oct 4 19:27:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g94NRL006056 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g94NRKi06050 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:27:21 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: crystal tests x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:27:21 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: crystal tests Thread-Index: AcJUVVGAz7qfUPPNRm2AgcwK1i7HFABllVjg From: "Robert Parsons" To: "Forens-L" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g94NRLi06051 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3687 While not a crystal test user myself, I also agree. Proficiency test studies have repeatedly demonstrated that experienced crystal test users make fewer errors on average than users of instrumental methods. While I intellectually cannot conceive of the human eye and memory being able to differentiate between the crystal test reaction products of millions of different chemical compounds the way mass or infrared spectra can (I wonder what is the number of theoretical plates achieved by eyeballing microscopic crystals, and how could it be measured?), the proof, as they say, is in the pudding - crystal tests work, and in the hands of experienced users they are highly reliable. Again in the hands of experts, they are also faster than instrumental analysis even considering automation of instrumental tasks through robotics. In recent years there has emerged a general (and ill-founded, IMHO) mistrust of "subjective" testing methods like crystal tests in favor of "objective" instrumental ones that produce "hard data" (even SWGDRUG standards relegate crystal tests to the realm of "presumptive" exams), but that shouldn't logically preclude the use of crystal tests as efficient and effective screening tools which can save a lot of analytical time and effort. I think the greatest reason crystal tests have fallen into comparative disuse in most parts of the country is the investment in time required to achieve reliable expertise in their use. To become so proficient that you can rely on crystal tests alone (without instrumental confirmation) for identification requires years of practice. Conversely, any competent analytical chemist can be taught to reliably ID drugs via GC/MS or FTIR in a matter of weeks or months. Training time has become a highly significant consideration in choice of methodology. It's sad to see such a useful technique fall by the wayside, but that is the undeniable trend. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Tiernan [mailto:tiernan@talk21.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 16:59 To: Forens-L Subject: Re: crystal tests I'm in wholehearted agreement with Jamie here. Having come through university in the early nineties without so much as a sniff of a microscope, I was fortunate enough to be trained by an "old fart" and I learned more in six weeks with him than in four years of a BSc. I for one am happy to continue to promote the use of these type of skills, unfortunately the pool of those willing to learn them is getting smaller.... Tiernan Long live the old farts! On 4 Sep 2002, at 12:01, Jamie wrote: I think the reason a lot labs don't use crystal tests any more is because that it is a technique that is no longer taught at the college level. They are considered old and outdated because there isn't a computer read out on them. As more and more of us "old farts" that have used them our entire career and believe in their validity retire or croak, there is a push to get rid of them. I could be wrong, but has been my impression that most of the current crop of people coming into forensics have never been trainied in the use of a microscope and do not understand the value of that tool. It requires more time to learn the techniques associated with doing crystal tests, but in almost all cases these tests will give you more data and much quicker than most instrumental methods. There are still a few places that you can learn these techniques. Contact me off list and I will discuss it further with you. Lets see what everyone else has to say now that I have stirred the pot. From daemon Fri Oct 4 19:34:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g94NYob06349 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g94NYni06343 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:34:50 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: microcrystal tests x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:34:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: microcrystal tests Thread-Index: AcJf9AwDLpkTn/UJR7a292zm0dNsUwDUY+2A From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g94NYni06344 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4571 Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound which produced it with no more information? You can by using MS, IR, and NMR, or a combination of them, if you're a good enough organic chemist - even if you have no standard to compare to. The spectrogram's features demonstrably correlate directly to specific molecular structures which can be specifically elucidated and used to "build" the molecule that produced them from scratch, so it's possible to "read" the spectra and "see" the molecular structure defined by the spectra. That's what is meant by "molecular information." Ultimately, you'd want to synthesize a standard of this new drug and run the same tests to confirm the ID, but the process can be reliably done even without a standard. You can't say that for crystal tests. As I've said many times before, I believe wholeheartedly in the abilities of accomplished crystal test users, but we have to admit it's a "matching test" - you ID the drug by visually matching the crystals you see to ones you've already seen with standards, understanding that crystal structure is dependant on molecular structure, but not actually being able to "see" the molecular structure within the crystal. Only in that "match" can any inference to molecular structure be made, so it's indirect evidence (reliable, but indirect). There's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals themselves provided, so there's no way to ID an unknown for which you have no standards using crystal tests. Admittedly, most drugs identified with instrumental tests are done the same way, by "matching" the spectra of the unknown drug to spectra of standards, and few forensic chemists are fluent enough in organic chemistry to actually elucidate structures, but the fact remains that instrumental results DO actually contain that directly "readable" molecular information (recognized or not), while crystal tests do not. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Peter D. Barnett [mailto:pbarnett@fsalab.com] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:40 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: microcrystal tests At 07:28 AM 9/19/02 -0700, idearmo@wsp.wa.gov wrote: >Thank you all for your kind responses to the inquiry on microcrystals. Some >here in Washington continue to use them, while others have been trained in >their use and have discontinued using them. In our labs, microcrystals are >used mainly in identifying meth and cocaine, but only in conjunction with an >instrumental method providing molecular information and reviewable data. It >remains to be seen what position SWGDRUG will take in the future regarding I don't understand why you say that instrumental methods provide molecular information, and imply therefor that crystal tests do not. Should we assume that crystals are a function of some other property than the arrangement of atoms in a molecule? As far as reviewable data is concerned, there are just as many opportunities for spectra to be misrepresented as there are for crystals to be misrepresented. What is the difference to a reviewer in looking at a spectrum that is recognized as methamphetamine and labelled "exhibit 1 from case no 2" or a page of notes that says "characteristics crystals with gold chloride were obtained on exhibit 1 from case no. 2." The only way to be sure that EITHER answer is correct is to redo the analysis. That should be the routine part of the quality control process in any scientific operation -- not simply a review of the paperwork. If administrators get a warm and fuzzy feeling from seeing spectra in drug analysts' records they should realize it is not a guarantee of much (in fact, it may just be the opposite), and it comes at a huge sacrifice in productivity. (Not that productivity is the most important goal, but what is the point of doing a drug analysis if it takes longer that about a week to get the results back?) P.S. It sounds like there were a lot of off-list responses on this topic. It is a shame that people find it necessary to respond off list. Are they unwilling to state their opinions publicly? These kinds of discussions should take place in other forums than the hallowed grounds of SWGDRUG meetings. Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Fri Oct 4 20:33:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g950X2u07273 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 20:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g950X1i07267 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 20:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini89b.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.33.43] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17xcsP-00077m-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 04 Oct 2002 20:33:02 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021004173139.02730430@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 17:31:44 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: RE: microcrystal tests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1412 I don't know that I'd agree that "there's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals themselves provided." The habit formed by precipitating a an unknown substance with a known reagent is very much an indication of the three dimensional formation of the molecule. Witness the similar forms of ammonium ions and potassium ions precipitated in gold chloride. This is due to their similar atomic radii. I submit that this is far more direct than reading a reconstructed ion chromatograph. Just my $.02 :-) John Houde ====== At 07:34 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and >don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound >which produced it with no more information? SNIP >There's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals >themselves provided, so there's no way to ID an unknown for which you have >no standards using crystal tests. Admittedly, most drugs identified with >instrumental tests are done the same way, by "matching" the spectra of the >unknown drug to spectra of standards, and few forensic chemists are fluent >enough in organic chemistry to actually elucidate structures, but the fact >remains tha! >t instrumental results DO actually contain that directly "readable" >molecular information (recognized or not), while crystal tests do not. > >Bob Parsons, F-ABC From daemon Sun Oct 6 01:36:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g965a6W27418 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g965a5i27412 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pdb ([63.204.135.243]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0H3J005OAOW2O3@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Sat, 05 Oct 2002 22:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 22:35:32 -0700 From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: RE: microcrystal tests In-reply-to: X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <0H3J005ODOW4O3@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g965a5i27413 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2077 At 07:34 PM 10/4/2002 -0400, Robert Parsons wrote: >Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound which produced it with no more information?  You can by using MS, IR, and NMR, or a combination of them, if you're a good enough organic chemist - even if you have no standard to compare to.  No you can't! A squiggly line on a display no more tells you the molecular structure of anything than does a irregularly, or regularly, shaped crystal. But with enough experimentation you can figure it out. In fact, chemical experiments provided the proof of instrumental methods; it was not the instrumental methods that provived the proof of chemical structures. The same principle applies to crystal tests. It is not necessary to test every conceivable chemical compound with the reagent - any more than it is necessary to run every chemical compound on your IR. A little understanding of the chemistry involved, quickly narrows down the field of possibilities to a few. As far as training goes: I don't understand why it takes more than a couple of weeks to learn to do microchemical testing of the commonly encountered drugs. Presumably the people doing this testing have some uderstanding of chemistry, and are entitled to rely on the work done by other chemists over the years to show what to expect. Does the person using an IR have to reproduce all of the chemistry behind the conclusion that a particular spectrum is what you get with some particular drug? And, actually getting some answers IS important. Labs who do primarily crystal tests turn out roughly 1000 cases per analyst per month. Labs that do instrumental analysis seem to do about 5% of that figure. (If anyone has any contrary data, please provide it to the list). And the evidence is very strong that the former do a more accurate job than the latter. Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Sun Oct 6 01:36:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g965a6B27419 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g965a4i27406 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pdb ([63.204.135.243]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0H3J005OAOW2O3@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Sat, 05 Oct 2002 22:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 22:17:29 -0700 From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: RE: microcrystal tests In-reply-to: X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <0H3J005OBOW2O3@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g965a4i27407 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4991 Gosh, as I recall molecular structures WERE deduced by clever chemists before the days of IR, Mass spec, or NMR. At 07:34 PM 10/4/2002 -0400, Robert Parsons wrote: >Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound which produced it with no more information?  You can by using MS, IR, and NMR, or a combination of them, if you're a good enough organic chemist - even if you have no standard to compare to.  The spectrogram's features demonstrably correlate directly to specific molecular structures which can be specifically elucidated and used to "build" the molecule that produced them from scratch, so it's possible to "read" the spectra and "see" the molecular structure defined by the spectra.  That's what is meant by "molecular information."  Ultimately, you'd want to synthesize a standard of this new drug and run the same tests to confirm the ID, but the process can be reliably done even without a standard. You can't say that for crystal tests. > >As I've said many times before, I believe wholeheartedly in the abilities of accomplished crystal test users, but we have to admit it's a "matching test" - you ID the drug by visually matching the crystals you see to ones you've already seen with standards, understanding that crystal structure is dependant on molecular structure, but not actually being able to "see" the molecular structure within the crystal.  Only in that "match" can any inference to molecular structure be made, so it's indirect evidence (reliable, but indirect).  There's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals themselves provided, so there's no way to ID an unknown for which you have no standards using crystal tests.  Admittedly, most drugs identified with instrumental tests are done the same way, by "matching" the spectra of the unknown drug to spectra of standards, and few forensic chemists are fluent enough in organic chemistry to actually elucidate structures, but the fact remains tha! >t instrumental results DO actually contain that directly "readable" molecular information (recognized or not), while crystal tests do not. > >Bob Parsons, F-ABC >Forensic Chemist >Regional Crime Laboratory >at Indian River Community College >Ft. Pierce, FL > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Peter D. Barnett [mailto:pbarnett@fsalab.com] >Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:40 >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Re: microcrystal tests > > >At 07:28 AM 9/19/02 -0700, idearmo@wsp.wa.gov wrote: >>Thank you all for your kind responses to the inquiry on microcrystals.  Some >>here in Washington continue to use them, while others have been trained in >>their use and have discontinued using them.  In our labs, microcrystals are >>used mainly in identifying meth and cocaine, but only in conjunction with an >>instrumental method providing molecular information and reviewable data.  It >>remains to be seen what position SWGDRUG will take in the future regarding > >I don't understand why you say that instrumental methods provide molecular >information, and imply therefor that crystal tests do not. Should we assume >that crystals are a function of some other property than the arrangement of >atoms in a molecule? > >As far as reviewable data is concerned, there are just as many >opportunities for spectra to be misrepresented as there are for crystals to >be misrepresented. What is the difference to a reviewer in looking at a >spectrum that is recognized as methamphetamine and labelled "exhibit 1 from >case no 2" or a page of notes that says "characteristics crystals with gold >chloride were obtained on exhibit 1 from case no. 2." The only way to be >sure that EITHER answer is correct is to redo the analysis. That should be >the routine part of the quality control process in any scientific operation >-- not simply a review of the paperwork. > >If administrators get a warm and fuzzy feeling from seeing spectra in drug >analysts' records they should realize it is not a guarantee of much (in >fact, it may just be the opposite), and it comes at a huge sacrifice in >productivity. (Not that productivity is the most important goal, but what >is the point of doing a drug analysis if it takes longer that about a week >to get the results back?) > >P.S. It sounds like there were a lot of off-list responses on this >topic.  It is a shame that people find it necessary to respond off list. >Are they unwilling to state their opinions publicly?  These kinds of >discussions should take place in other forums than the hallowed grounds of >SWGDRUG meetings. > >Pete Barnett > > >Peter D. Barnett >Forensic Science Associates >Richmond CA >510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com > >http://www.fsalab.com > Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Sun Oct 6 09:20:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g96DKet02325 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g96DKci02315 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42770409DA for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:53:50 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.197.226.194]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Sun, 06 Oct 2002 18:53:51 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3DA037DD.17593655@vsnl.net> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 18:47:18 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Insanity Defence references Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2482 Hi list, I am looking for following references on insanity defence. Can somebody help please (by perhaps sending the papers in scanned or pdf formats or other wise. Thanks) 1. Diamond B.L. (1962) From M’Naghten to Currens and beyond. Cal. L. R., 50, 189, 193 2. Sobeloff S.E. (1955) Insanity and the criminal law: from M’Naghten to Durham and beyond. A.B.A.J. 41, 793 3. Durham v. United States, 214 Fed. 2d 862; 94 U.S. App. D.C. 228 (1954) 4. United States V. Currens, 290 Fed. 2d 751 (3d Cir. 1961) 5. Model Penal Code 4.01 (1) (Tent. Draft No. 4, 1955) United States v. Brawner, 471 Fed 2d 969 (D.C. Cir. 1972) [In this case the Durham Rule was dropped in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, and the court adopted the A.L.I. Formula] Alternatively someone may want to tell me how Durham and Currens and ALI (and other legal tests of insanity) differ from M'Naghten. And also which rule is followed in which state/country. As far as India is concerned, insanity defence is limited to Section 84 of Indian Penal Code (I.P.C.), which is nothing but M'Naghten rephrased in different words. Many thanks Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Mon Oct 7 14:10:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g97IAsO27490 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-2.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-2.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.229]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g97IAri27484 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-2.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g97Hx2ae013250 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:10:54 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:10:52 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:08:17 -0700 From: "James Roberts" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: YPG 2002 Forensic test session - Dec. 6 & 7 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 11BF11A43374507-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g97IAsi27485 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2287 We have just been informed that dates for the YPG 2002 Forensic test session are Dec. 6 & 7, 2002. Each fall since 1992 the U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground along with the Arizona Department of Public Safety and the Southern California Firearms Study Group has hosted a test session to study exterior ballistics and other firearms and forensic related issues. YPG offers us the use of Doppler Radar and High Speed Video equipment to do what ever experiments we wish, as long as they are safe to conduct. Anyone who wishes to attend should contact Bill Morris ( Wmorris@dps.state.az.us , 602-223-2394 )or myself ( James.Roberts@mail.co.ventura.ca.us , (805) 654-2308). Anyone who has not attended one of the sessions in the past must provide Bill Morris with the necessary security information before mid November. Anyone with an experiment to propose should contact me. We have several tests already on the schedule. Anyone wishing to use special equipment or the photographic unit equipment should contact us as soon as possible with these requests. This is an informal experiment session, no registration fee is involved. All participants will be responsible for their own lodging and food. Most people stay at the La Fuente Inn & Suites, 1513 E. 16th St Yuma, 877-202-3353, they offer a government rate to us. This is our meeting point at 7:00 A.M. Friday morning to caravan to the Proving Ground. Some of us meet on Thursday evening at the La Fuente Inn to finalize the next days planned schedule. We generally pool our money and send out for pizza for Friday lunch. Most of us gather at a local Restaurant for Friday Dinner. We again meet at La Fuente at 7:00 Saturday morning to caravan out. The session breaks up Mid-afternoon on Saturday, depending upon scheduled experiments. Unfortunately it is highly likely that this will be our last Year to use the facilities at YPG. If you have a test to conduct or just want to observe (no one just observes, we will put you to work at something) this is the year to join us. Please share this with others that you think will be interested in attending. James L. Roberts Firearm & Toolmark Examiner Ventura Co. Sheriff's Lab 800 S. Victoria Ave. Ventura, CA. 93009 (805) 654-2308 James.Roberts@mail.co.ventura.ca.us From daemon Mon Oct 7 14:13:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g97ID0S27609 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-2.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-2.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.229]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g97ICxi27603 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-2.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g97I06ae013330 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:12:59 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:12:58 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:10:25 -0700 From: "James Roberts" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: YPG 2002 Forensic test session - Dec. 6 & 7 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 11BF11213374784-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g97ICxi27604 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2287 We have just been informed that dates for the YPG 2002 Forensic test session are Dec. 6 & 7, 2002. Each fall since 1992 the U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground along with the Arizona Department of Public Safety and the Southern California Firearms Study Group has hosted a test session to study exterior ballistics and other firearms and forensic related issues. YPG offers us the use of Doppler Radar and High Speed Video equipment to do what ever experiments we wish, as long as they are safe to conduct. Anyone who wishes to attend should contact Bill Morris ( Wmorris@dps.state.az.us , 602-223-2394 )or myself ( James.Roberts@mail.co.ventura.ca.us , (805) 654-2308). Anyone who has not attended one of the sessions in the past must provide Bill Morris with the necessary security information before mid November. Anyone with an experiment to propose should contact me. We have several tests already on the schedule. Anyone wishing to use special equipment or the photographic unit equipment should contact us as soon as possible with these requests. This is an informal experiment session, no registration fee is involved. All participants will be responsible for their own lodging and food. Most people stay at the La Fuente Inn & Suites, 1513 E. 16th St Yuma, 877-202-3353, they offer a government rate to us. This is our meeting point at 7:00 A.M. Friday morning to caravan to the Proving Ground. Some of us meet on Thursday evening at the La Fuente Inn to finalize the next days planned schedule. We generally pool our money and send out for pizza for Friday lunch. Most of us gather at a local Restaurant for Friday Dinner. We again meet at La Fuente at 7:00 Saturday morning to caravan out. The session breaks up Mid-afternoon on Saturday, depending upon scheduled experiments. Unfortunately it is highly likely that this will be our last Year to use the facilities at YPG. If you have a test to conduct or just want to observe (no one just observes, we will put you to work at something) this is the year to join us. Please share this with others that you think will be interested in attending. James L. Roberts Firearm & Toolmark Examiner Ventura Co. Sheriff's Lab 800 S. Victoria Ave. Ventura, CA. 93009 (805) 654-2308 James.Roberts@mail.co.ventura.ca.us From daemon Wed Oct 9 12:06:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g99G6lU18873 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g99G6ki18867 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LisaLegalNurse@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.18d.f985606 (15862) for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m10.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.138]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILINID61-1009120640; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:06:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:06:40 -0400 From: LisaLegalNurse@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: College student looking for internship MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <367CC6D6.1CD45708.24A0AA0B@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 705 My son is a Junior at Oklahoma State University studying Criminal Psychology. He is looking for a summer internship, paid or unpaid, in forensics/police department/ federal marshall program/highway patrol/FBI, or any other arena he can find to further his education. We are willing to "relocate" him for the summer 2003 to achieve this goal. If any of you are interested in a motivated young man, willing to spend his summer shadowing you, please contact us. OSU has a program he would have to follow to meet certain goals they have for him. Please respond to this email or directly to him at Hud782@aol.com. (Brian Hudson). Thank you! Lisa Hudson,RN, BSN Total LegalNurse Consultants 405-414-7005 From daemon Wed Oct 9 12:54:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g99GsFH20289 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.urdirect.net (alpha.urdirect.net [216.136.28.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g99GsEi20283 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sany60q25j39h5 (pm3a-37.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.116]) by alpha.urdirect.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA05893; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:54:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha.urdirect.net: Host pm3a-37.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.116] claimed to be sany60q25j39h5 Message-ID: <009601c26fb4$3e23b880$741c88d8@sany60q25j39h5> Reply-To: "Mike Wise" From: "Mike Wise" To: , References: <367CC6D6.1CD45708.24A0AA0B@aol.com> Subject: Re: College student looking for internship Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:52:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1013 Have him contact the nearest FBI office. The FBI offers Summer Intern programs, primarily in DC and Quantico VA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: College student looking for internship > > My son is a Junior at Oklahoma State University studying Criminal Psychology. He is looking for a summer internship, paid or unpaid, in forensics/police department/ federal marshall program/highway patrol/FBI, or any other arena he can find to further his education. We are willing to "relocate" him for the summer 2003 to achieve this goal. If any of you are interested in a motivated young man, willing to spend his summer shadowing you, please contact us. OSU has a program he would have to follow to meet certain goals they have for him. Please respond to this email or directly to him at Hud782@aol.com. (Brian Hudson). Thank you! > Lisa Hudson,RN, BSN > Total LegalNurse Consultants > 405-414-7005 > From daemon Wed Oct 9 14:46:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g99Ikon22780 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns3.rad.net.id (ns3.rad.net.id [202.154.3.240]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g99Ikfi22774 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.rad.net.id (dyn4008a.dialin.rad.net.id [202.154.9.8]) by ns3.rad.net.id (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g99Ieke14710; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:40:48 +0700 (WIT) (envelope-from fprensik@rad.net.id) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:40:48 +0700 (WIT) Message-Id: <200210091840.g99Ieke14710@ns3.rad.net.id> FROM: forensik SUBJECT: right to fair and X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 424 For as full rehabilitation as possible. In the event of the death of the victim as a result of an act of torture, his dependants shall be entitled to compensation. Nothing in this article shall affect any right of the victim or other persons to compensation which may exist under national law. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/octet-stream --- From daemon Thu Oct 10 08:24:45 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ACOjZ09407 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ACOiZ09401 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:24:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: bounced message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1304 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Microcrystal tests Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:48:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" I have found this debate interesting. Being a firm instrumentalist I thought that this quote might be of interest, "The microcrystal test is unsuitable as a primary method of identification of an unknown compound, as it does not lend itself to form the basis of an identification scheme." I noticed the words primary and unsuitable myself. The source of this quote... E.G.C Clarke's Isolation and Identification of Drugs. 1969 pg 135. My question is why is it acceptable now to use microcrystal tests as the primary means of identification when it wasn't (according to Clarke) 30years ago? Especially when 1969 was long before the common use of GC/MS and FTIR. As for speed of analysis we average 100 to 150 cases per month per analyst. And when should speed ever have more weight than best scientific practice, especially when we are talking about denying someone their liberty? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Oct 10 11:04:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AF42u13054 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay3.mail.twtelecom.net (relay3.mail.twtelecom.net [216.136.95.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AF41i13040 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net (206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.45.183]) by relay3.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8ED3856F8 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:01:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay3.mail.twtelecom.net [216.136.95.10]) with SMTP; 10 Oct 2002 14:50:55 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Thu Oct 10 08:01:06 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:02:10 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:01:22 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: bounced message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9AF41i13044 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1087 Yes, Clarke stated this, but he also said,"it remains of considerable value for confirmatory purposes." He further states, "It's real value is as a means of final identification made from chromatographic or spectrophotometric evidence, its extreme simplicity, the rapidity with which it may be performed, and its high degree of specificity, rendering it ideal for this purpose." It appears, that crystal test are not suitable for screening an unknown drug, but rather confirming instrumental method. Clarke loved the ide of specificity couple with therapidity of analysis. He was involved indeveloping several modifications of crystal tests, hence I believe he endorsed them whole heartedly. On page 139, in the last paragraph, clarke states unequivocably, "A particular instance where the microcrystal test is practically the only method of distinguishing between compounds is that of optical isomers." 'Nuff said! Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 From daemon Thu Oct 10 11:57:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AFv6u14469 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AFv5i14463 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini9ee.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.37.206] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zfgO-0007gR-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:57:05 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010084742.02afd4e0@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:55:37 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: never just Xtals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 996 RE Clarke, I concur with Greg L. I would never advise anyone to use a single microcrystal test to identify an unknown drug. But, as I have taught so many budding analysts, I WOULD use it to identify a pre-screened compound. There is so much information to be gleaned from a seemingly simple screening test. Let's use the cocaine presumptive screen, the cobalt thiocyanate spot test. I would never allow my students to simply say "the spot test was blue, so it was positive...now, onto the crystal test." NOPE! I want them to notice the speed of the reaction, the quality of the color, the texture of any precipitate formed, the solubility of the color (Scott's modification), etc., and all these observations taken TOGETHER, give them a huge amount of information. There aren't very many compounds that can be confused with cocaine HCl by this time. NOW we proceed to the crystal test, for identification and then to an instrument for confirmation and quantitation if required. JNH From daemon Thu Oct 10 13:29:45 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AHTik16375 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nothingbutnet.net ([207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AHThi16367 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm8-25.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.25]) (authenticated bits=0) by nothingbutnet.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/jjb-uf) with ESMTP id g9AHTfIk019150 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:29:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010094452.00aadc60@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:56:54 -0700 To: From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: never just Xtals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010084742.02afd4e0@pop.business.earthlink. net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1682 At 08:55 AM 10/10/02 -0700, John Houde wrote: >NOPE! I want them to notice the speed of the reaction, the quality of the >color, the texture of any precipitate formed, the solubility of the color >(Scott's modification), etc., and all these observations taken TOGETHER, >give them a huge amount of information. There aren't very many compounds >that can be confused with cocaine HCl by this time. NOW we proceed to the >crystal test, for identification and then to an instrument for >confirmation and quantitation if required. Wait - if the preliminary tests "give them a huge amount of information" and "[t]here aren't very many compounds that can be confused with cocaine HCl by this time" and then you do a crystal test "for identification" what does the instrumental test confirm? If it is simply a duplicate analysis (a QC measure) why not have the sample analyzed by a different analyst using any appropriate analytical scheme. If there is still some doubt after the classification and microcrystal tests, and that doubt is resolved by the instrumental analysis, why do the microcrystal test? Why is the instrumental confirmation required "to make an adequate examination of the materials, applying those tests required for proof" (a CAC ethical mandate) rather than a test that used by the analyst(or management) "for the sake of bolstering his conclusions, utiliz[ing] unwarranted or superfluous tests in an attempt to give apparent greater weight to his results" (a CAC Code of Ethics prohibition). Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 13:49:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AHnsC16995 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AHnri16989 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:49:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini9ee.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.37.206] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zhRT-0007s7-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:49:50 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010104426.01e0b8f0@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:48:07 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: Re: never just Xtals In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010094452.00aadc60@pop.nothingbutnet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010084742.02afd4e0@pop.business.earthlink. net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 861 Short answer, it is NOT necessary to run the GC test. BUT, I want more information, such as quantitation, which is very useful for tracking trends in street quality, effectiveness in interdiction, etc. I also like the "symmetry" of testifying how I used a series of three tests, screening, identification and confirmation in the analysis. If I got no more information from the GC, then I agree, it would be pointless. JNH > Why is the instrumental confirmation required "to make an adequate > examination of the materials, applying those tests required for > proof" (a CAC ethical mandate) rather than a test that used by the > analyst(or management) "for the sake of bolstering his conclusions, > utiliz[ing] unwarranted or superfluous tests in an attempt to give > apparent greater weight to his results" (a CAC Code of Ethics prohibition). From daemon Thu Oct 10 14:50:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AIoeS18488 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AIoci18482 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm9-72.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.72]) (authenticated bits=0) by nothingbutnet.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/jjb-uf) with ESMTP id g9AIoYIk025299 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010115021.00ae1400@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:56:24 -0700 To: From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: never just Xtals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010104426.01e0b8f0@pop.business.earthlink. net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010094452.00aadc60@pop.nothingbutnet.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021010084742.02afd4e0@pop.business.earthlink. net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1772 At 10:48 AM 10/10/02 -0700, John Houde wrote: >Short answer, it is NOT necessary to run the GC test. BUT, I want more >information, such as quantitation, which is very useful for tracking >trends in street quality, effectiveness in interdiction, etc. I also like >the "symmetry" of testifying how I used a series of three tests, >screening, identification and confirmation in the analysis. If I got no >more information from the GC, then I agree, it would be pointless. But, then, if the GC gives no more information is it used for "for the sake of bolstering his conclusions, utiliz[ing] unwarranted or superfluous tests in an attempt to give apparent greater weight to his results." Would GC and FTIR, following the microcrystal test, be "for the sake of bolstering his conclusions, utiliz[ing] unwarranted or superfluous tests in an attempt to give apparent greater weight to his results." Since GC (obviously as opposed to GC/MS) does not provide that magical "structural elucidation" that seems to be the Holy Grail of drug identifiers, does GC after microcrystal tests serve "to make an adequate examination of the materials, applying those tests required for proof." >JNH > > > > >> Why is the instrumental confirmation required "to make an adequate >> examination of the materials, applying those tests required for >> proof" (a CAC ethical mandate) rather than a test that used by the >> analyst(or management) "for the sake of bolstering his conclusions, >> utiliz[ing] unwarranted or superfluous tests in an attempt to give >> apparent greater weight to his results" (a CAC Code of Ethics prohibition). Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 15:02:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AJ2i119151 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AJ2ii19145 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net (206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net [206.169.45.183]) by relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8AF664F75D6 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:02:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 206-169-45-183.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) with SMTP; 10 Oct 2002 18:51:51 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Thu Oct 10 12:02:03 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:03:07 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:02:15 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: never just Xtals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9AJ2ii19146 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 648 Pete, Are you suggesting that a required GC/MS or IR test that is required by management or an accrediting body such as ASCLD/LAB or SWGDRUG that follows a competent scientist/criminalist employing one or two microcrystalline test might be an ethical violation of the CAC ethics code? Afterall, most if not all drug analysts employing micrcryatal tests are thoroughly convinced of an identification once that type of test is completed successfully. I'd like your thoughts on this. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 From daemon Thu Oct 10 15:14:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AJE5k19552 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AJE4u19546 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: bounced reply Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3633 Just a note: This is a reply to a message that I forwarded this moring. When I forwarded the original post to the list, I accidently deleted the sender's name. The sender had no intention of posting anonomously. -Chris ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:13:33 -0700 To: From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: Microcrystal tests In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:24 AM 10/10/02 -0400, Basten wrote: >I have found this debate interesting. Being a firm instrumentalist I thought >that this quote might be of interest, "The microcrystal test is unsuitable >as a primary method of identification of an unknown compound, as it does not >lend itself to form the basis of an identification scheme." Perhaps the anonymous author of this message did not read the rest of the paragraph in Clarke (and I quote from the 1971 edition): "Its [microcrystal test] real value is as a means of final identification to confirm a provisional diagnosis made from chromatographic or spectrophotometric evidence, its extreme simplicity, the rapidity with which it may be performed, and its high degree of specificity rendering it ideal for this purpose." In 1969 the chromatographic and spectophotometric tests to which Clarke refers were primarily UV and thin-layer -- tests which are considered, then and now, as screening tests very much akin to color tests. >My question is >why is it acceptable now to use microcrystal tests as the primary means of >identification when it wasn't (according to Clarke) 30years ago? By primary I assume Clarke means "first" or "initial." The reason is that microcrystal tests are so specific is that if the analyte is not what is expected, no results are obtained. The value of chromatographic or spectrophotometric methods is that they give you information about classes of drug which allows narrowing the choices of the identification tests to be used. As for speed of >analysis we average 100 to 150 cases per month per analyst. And when should >speed ever have more weight than best scientific practice, especially when >we are talking about denying someone their liberty? One of the features of the practice of forensic science is that answers need to be obtained in a timely fashion or else they are useless. Since many laboratories report controlled substance backlogs of several months, decisions about the case are being made in the absence of ANY analysis. I have been told that these jurisdictions will decide how to proceed, including trials resulting in guilty verdicts, on the basis of field screening tests conducted by police officers, the defendant's statements about what the substance is, or statements from other participants in the event leading to the arrest. Surely these methods of identification of controlled substances are less reliable than a microcrystal test. As an alternative, people who are arrested could be held in custody while the laboratory with a 60 day backlog uses GC/MS to test the vegetable manner and finds that it is not marijuana - a result that could have been obtained in 30 seconds with a microscopic and color test. The defendant is then released, the charges dropped "in the interests of justice", and everyone is proud of the fact that "the system worked just the way it should." Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 16:30:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9AKU9521437 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nothingbutnet.net ([207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9AKU8i21431 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm8-23.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.23]) (authenticated bits=0) by nothingbutnet.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/jjb-uf) with ESMTP id g9AKTb0q002849; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010124337.00ac4620@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:06:17 -0700 To: "Greg Laskowski" , , From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: never just Xtals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2060 >At 12:02 PM 10/10/02 -0700, Greg Laskowski wrote: >Pete, > >Are you suggesting that a required GC/MS or IR test that is required by >management or an accrediting body such as ASCLD/LAB or SWGDRUG that >follows a competent scientist/criminalist employing one or two >microcrystalline test might be an ethical violation of the CAC ethics code? > >Afterall, most if not all drug analysts employing micrcryatal tests are >thoroughly convinced of an identification once that type of test is >completed successfully. I'd like your thoughts on this. Good question, Greg. I don't know the answer -- it probably depends a lot on intent. But I do know that there are many instances in which redundant tests are presented (perhaps in argument and misstating the forensic scientist's intention if not the testimony) that such and such MUST be the case because Test A and Test B BOTH indicated the same thing. Since I haven't heard of any scientific justification that I think holds water for doing GC/MS following a microcrystal test (at least, in general), then the reasons lie somewhere else. Certainly, a test that is "required by management or an accrediting body" may not be scientifically necessary. The ethical prohibition, however, is against doing these unnecessary and superfluous tests in "an attempt to give greater weight" to the results. The situation, for the bench analyst might be different if the test is mandated by an accreditation institution, or requested by a prosecutor. If the prosecutor calls to ask what was done and finds out that a microcrystal test was used, then asks for an FTIR to be done, that might qualify as an unethical "attempt to give greater weight" to the results if the analyst complies with the request. On the other hand, one might reasonably wonder why an accreditation body, or laboratory management, would want superfluous tests to be done. Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 17:57:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ALvEp23330 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ALvDi23324 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini9ee.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.37.206] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zlIu-0005lF-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:57:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010144014.01e0ec70@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:55:45 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: bolstering In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010124337.00ac4620@pop.nothingbutnet.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1602 This is a good topic for discussion. I believe the ethics problem occurs when the scientist attempts to increase the weight of his or her testimony when he or she knows it isn't necessary. That's obvious. It's not fair for the trier of fact, who must assign appropriate weight to an expert's testimony, to somehow know when the analyst was convinced, but then did even more testing, perhaps to pad the bill or sway the jury. As much as I like crystal tests, and I do, I still wouldn't break open a plastic baggie, run a platinic chloride and write a report. Even if it's true, and it probably is, that a characteristic crystal is positive for cocaine, I want to run at least another test, say, gold chloride xtal or Scott. Is that "bolstering?" Heck no, because I'm satisfying MY own threshold for identification. You know, a good analyst begins the analysis when they first see the substance. Just observing a white, odorless powder eliminates all of the compounds that aren't odorless, white solids at room temp. Doing a water soluble spot test a la CoSCN, eliminates all the insoluble organics and inorganics from the rapidly shortening list of possible compounds. Another, important, reason for running a confirmatory test is to assure the quality of the identification test. I recall a batch of crystal reagent that had become contaminated and either would not produce crystals or was overgrown with irrelevant crystals. That GC at the end would be nice to have. It doesn't have to be an instrumental test, though, a second type of crystal test would work just as well. JNH From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:25:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANPEO24711 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANPDi24705 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:25:13 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Job description question Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:25:12 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Job description question Thread-Index: AcJlbJMb1mhfo2uSR1ibGhSR9QewwAALJxDQ From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANPDi24706 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3966 Outrageous! If the ADA really is intending to misuse the chemist's results that way, then the attempt (whether successful or not) should be answered by plainly correcting the ADA's statements while on the stand, even if one must resort to answering without being asked. Then a complaint against that particular ADA should be filed with the authorities (DA's office, Prosecutor's Association, and the State Bar Association). As to Pete's question - a forensic lab report should contain ALL information of relevance to the questions asked by the contributor (and in the case of a prosecution contributor, also to those questions which, in the judgment of the Criminalist, should have been asked), relevant to the analytical results obtained, or relevant to the proper interpretation of those results. I'm not sure Pete meant that there were multiple donors to the sample tested. I thought he meant some information about the frequency with which the serological types identified occurred in the relevant population (e.g., "this biochemical marker combination occurs in approximately 26% of the Caucasian male population," etc.). In either case, the information should have been included in the report. It's not enough that our reports accurately relate our results - they must also explain those results in such a way to ensure they are properly understood and applied. We must endeavor, as much as possible, to prevent our results from being misinterpreted or misrepresented; we do that by writing reports that are both thorough and explicit. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: John Lentini [mailto:johnlentini@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:53 To: Peter D. Barnett; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Job description question Given the obligations to tell the WHOLE truth, and to avoid leaving the jury with a false impression, I would say that if it was known that there were multiple donors, the report should have reflected that. Failure to include that information makes the scientist looks like a prosecution tool, and the failure to disclose it to the defense gets close to a Brady violation. As scientists, WE should determine what the question is, and not be limited by what one side or the other asks us to address. I have a similar case where a competent and thoughtful chemist is being brought to an arson trial where he will be asked to tell the jury that he found "toluene" in a sample, even though his report says unequivocally "no ignitable liquids were detected." He has told the prosecutor in as many ways as he knows how that the toluene is most likely a decomposition product(there is about 5 times as much styrene and methylstyrene), but the DA wants the jury to think the sample was really positive. I hope to be able to make the DAs plan backfire, but who knows what the jury might think. --- "Peter D. Barnett" wrote: > Would anyone care to comment on the following > statement taken from a sworn > declaration of a forensic scientist: > > "In 1986-1988, [agency name deleted] did not > require that its serologists > list all potential semen donors in our final > reports. Rather, the primary > purpose of our final report during that time > period was to determine > whether the defendant could be included or > excluded as a potential semen > donor." > > Pete Barnett > > Peter D. Barnett > Forensic Science Associates > Richmond CA > 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 > pbarnett@FSALab.com > > http://www.fsalab.com > ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:26:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANQKW24746 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANQJi24731 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:19 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Canine scenting: Literature search Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Canine scenting: Literature search Thread-Index: AcJljkFEWUjLLg8lTf+uocQyxMpq7AADWXEw From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANQJi24732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2165 If you're interested in doing forensic DNA work, a graduate degree in molecular biology (not in forensic science) would be very useful to you. Some graduate credits in molecular biology and population genetics are a requirement to do this work, per national SWGDAM guidelines. If you're interested in forensic toxicology, then an MS in toxicology (again, not in forensic science) might be preferred, but certainly is not required. For any other criminalistics specialty (i.e., analytical specialty found in traditional crime labs), no graduate degree is necessary. An MS degree (including one in FS) of course wouldn't hurt, and would make you more competitive for open positions, but is not required for those positions and would not get you any higher a starting salary. Unless you know someone with an "in" at a crime lab, the only way to get your foot in the door is to start calling labs and applying for positions. If you stay in school, trying to obtain a forensic science internship would be a great way to open doors. Good luck. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Janice Chau [mailto:js_chau@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 14:45 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Canine scenting: Literature search Hi, I am a recent graduate with a BS in Chemistry. I am very interested in pursuing a career in forensic science, especially forensic chemistry. Currently, I am working in a research lab acquiring many molecular biology skills and techniques. I've taken an online forensic class, as well as reading Richard Saferstein's Criminalistics: An Introduction to Forensic Science. I'm wondering if it's more ideal to get a Master's in Forensic Science before considering applying for a forensic position? Any suggestions how I can "get my foot in the door?" Any advice or ideas will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Janice Chau BS Chemistry Seattle, Washington _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:28:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANS2624998 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANS0i24992 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:28:01 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Question Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:27:58 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Question Thread-Index: AcJqLdIx0+oq2FsjRNu9VFFxVziyWwAD3n+g From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANS1i24993 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3590 Diane, If you are interested in doing DNA analysis you may need to go back to school to pick up a few graduate credits in molecular biology and population genetics, unless you already have that. Otherwise, you already have everything you need to get started in forensic science. You don't need a degree specifically in "forensic science," and in fact, most lab directors prefer degrees in chemistry or biology over the FS degree because of the perception that traditional degrees offer more depth in those subjects than the FS degree. Chemistry and biology are the meat and potatoes of most forensic science specialties found in the typical crime laboratory, and all you need to get started in most specialties is a B.S. You will be required to enter a training program (up to a year or more in length) before you begin doing supervised casework. After completing several months of supervised casework, you will be ready to begin working cases on your own. The only way to enter the field is to simply start applying to crime labs. Emphasize your "hard science" background (and particularly any analytical background) in your resume and at interviews. Employers won't care about your knowledge of criminal investigation or the justice system (neither has much relevance to your prospective job as a lab analyst), they want to see that you are a capable analytical scientist. Most forensic science organizations have job postings on their web sites. If you would prefer to remain in the same general geographic area as you are now, then locate local crime labs and contact them directly. It's a relatively small field, so don't be surprised if you find you have to relocate (perhaps FAR away) to find an open position. May I ask what piqued your interest in forensic science? I ask because the real work is absolutely NOTHING like what is portrayed on "CSI" and other fictional television programs, and most people who have become interested in the field through those shows have completely unrealistic impressions of what the work entails. The documentary shows on cable are much closer to reality, but they often leave mistaken impressions as well. Just some food for thought. Here's a couple of sites to begin your job hunting: AAFS job page: http://www.aafs.org/employ/list1.htm ASCLD job page: http://www.ascld.org/employment.html Good luck! Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Diane Satterfield [mailto:misspiggy_123@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:59 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Question I am interested in going into forensic science field. I have a BS in Biology, some molecular background and lot of experience in research, especially with animals. I am currently working in the laboratory animal research field. I was wondering where I need to go from here. There is not a college close by with a forensics program. I am 35 and if I could get into the field without going back to school that would be wonderful. I guess my question really is what kind of background do I need for the field and how do I go about finding a job in forensics? Diane Satterfield Henderson North Carolina Diane Henderson www.geocities.com/misspiggy_123/pp2.html www.geocities.com/misspiggy_123/clubdepot_pp3.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:34:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANYaN25285 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANYZi25279 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:34:35 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: microcrystal tests Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:34:35 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: microcrystal tests Thread-Index: AcJsCBFGZ8BFmz7RSCuucMWwvoB8bwCN+poA From: "Robert Parsons" To: "John Houde" , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANYZi25280 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3642 No problem, John. See my answer below. Bob -----Original Message----- From: John Houde [mailto:john@calicopress.com] Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 20:33 To: Robert Parsons Subject: RE: microcrystal tests Sorry Bob, I hit reply instead of "reply all." You may respond on the list rather than me privately, as I didn't intend to reply off list ARRRGGGHH ;-) John ------------------------------ An intriguing and astute point, John. But are there any published references or theoretical treatises which would allow one to examine the crystal habit visually and deduce the exact molecular structure of the drug from that alone, other than by comparison to a standard? Can you determine the molecular structure of a new, never-before-seen designer drug using crystal tests alone? I don't think so, because I don't believe that recognizable crystalline formations can be directly correlated to individual chemical functional groups to allow structure elucidation (please correct me if I'm wrong). The crystalline form reflects the entire molecule's structure, yes, but doesn't provide the data clues needed to deduce the component parts of the molecule in order to build the structure of a total unknown from scratch. Conversely, the data provided by spectroscopic analyses correlate directly to specific functional groups or bonds (e.g., O-H stretching bands in IR or hydrogen, hydroxyl, methyl, or amino stripping in MS, etc.) - it reveals the component parts of the molecule which make up the whole. Crystal tests only provide a reflection of the whole, there is no way they can be used to deduce the component parts and their relationships to each other, and so no way to deduce exact molecular structure. That was the point I was trying to make - that you can't do structural elucidation of a total unknown using crystal tests alone, but you can with spectroscopy, because spectroscopy provides molecular data that crystal tests do not. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: John Houde [mailto:john@calicopress.com] Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 20:31 To: Robert Parsons Subject: RE: microcrystal tests I don't know that I'd agree that "there's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals themselves provided." The habit formed by precipitating a an unknown substance with a known reagent is very much an indication of the three dimensional formation of the molecule. Witness the similar forms of ammonium ions and potassium ions precipitated in gold chloride. This is due to their similar atomic radii. I submit that this is far more direct than reading a reconstructed ion chromatograph. Just my $.02 :-) John Houde ====== At 07:34 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and >don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound >which produced it with no more information? SNIP >There's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals >themselves provided, so there's no way to ID an unknown for which you have >no standards using crystal tests. Admittedly, most drugs identified with >instrumental tests are done the same way, by "matching" the spectra of the >unknown drug to spectra of standards, and few forensic chemists are fluent >enough in organic chemistry to actually elucidate structures, but the fact >remains tha! >t instrumental results DO actually contain that directly "readable" >molecular information (recognized or not), while crystal tests do not. > >Bob Parsons, F-ABC From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:48:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANm3m25680 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANm1i25674 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:48:02 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: microcrystal tests Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:48:01 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: microcrystal tests Thread-Index: AcJs+6swhljSM60CSNi/uGobvOLmkABXoR6Q From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANm2i25675 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 10808 >>>>Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound which produced it with no more information?  You can by using MS, IR, and NMR, or a combination of them, if you're a good enough organic chemist - even if you have no standard to compare to.<<<< >>No you can't! A squiggly line on a display no more tells you the molecular structure of anything than does a irregularly, or regularly, shaped crystal. But with enough experimentation you can figure it out.<< Sorry, Pete, I have to disagree - yes you can, if you know what you're doing. Those "squiggly lines" correspond to specific structural elements, not just generalities, at least where MS, IR, and NMR are concerned. For example, absorbance at specific IR wavelengths corresponds to specific types of bonds and patterns of bonds (e.g., bending and stretching of bonds between specific atoms, like O-H or C-H), ion fragments in a mass spectrum correspond to specific functional groups and other molecular fragments (e.g., hydrogen stripping patterns reveal isolated hydrogen atoms, larger ion losses correspond to methyl, ethyl, amino, or other groups, etc.). NMR spectra, X-ray diffraction bands, etc., also provide specific molecular data. By piecing together these clues you can build the molecular structure on paper. Often there is more than one possible combination, and you will have to synthesize and analyze each of the proposed compounds to see which is correct, but it can be done. Spectroscopic interpretation courses teach you how to do this, although it's admittedly very challenging. Most of us don't have the depth in organic chemistry skills needed to do it easily, and so most of us would never attempt it in casework, but the point is that the data is there if you know how to use it. You can't do elucidation like that with crystal tests, because they don't provide that kind of data. >>In fact, chemical experiments provided the proof of instrumental methods; it was not the instrumental methods that provived the proof of chemical structures.<< Instrumental methods prove the structure of novel compounds every day, and are the methods of choice in any chemical research lab. You don't see anyone using the wet chemical methods of the 19th century to develop new drugs or identify newly isolated, never-before-seen phytochemicals, because instrumental exams provide more data, more quickly and reliably than the old wet ways. It was primitive spectroscopy that provided the breakthrough needed for Watson and Crick to determine the structure of DNA, for example. It could not have been done through wet chemistry alone, the molecule is simply too complex. Crystal tests can prove identity through comparison, no argument; and they're faster for routine analyses, no argument; but they can't determine structure from scratch. Spectroscopic tests can. >>The same principle applies to crystal tests. It is not necessary to test every conceivable chemical compound with the reagent - any more than it is necessary to run every chemical compound on your IR. A little understanding of the chemistry involved, quickly narrows down the field of possibilities to a few.<< Agreed. But the theory behind MS, for example, easily makes the case that no two different chemical structures can produce exactly the same ion fragmentation pattern (similar perhaps, but not exactly the same), because fragmentation depends on the original structure, and you can't produce fragments that weren't there to begin with in the original molecule. That's why you don't have to test every possible compound to know that mass spectra are unique to a given molecular structure. With MS, you can "narrow down the possibilities" to just one. I may be wrong as I'm not a crystal theorist, but I don't think that crystal theory allows you to make that same statement to the same degree of certainty, at least not with a single test. Even if it does, how do we know that the human eye (or a given person's eye) is capable of distinguishing all of them? What chemical or biological theorem establishes that it is so? How can we measure the power and resolution of the technique to determine a degree of certainty for the identification? The number of theoretical plates in an instrumental exam is inherent in the design of the instrument/technique itself, and can be objectively measured and substantiated by a variety of techniques. This is how we know that a mass spectrum is far more specific than a UV spectrum or a thin layer chromatogram. How do we prove that one crystal test is more specific than another one (or than an instrumental exam)? The degree of resolution provided by a crystal test result is heavily dependant on the experience and skill of the observer/user and cannot be objectively measured in terms of theoretical plates (or any other unit), so assertions about resolution are difficult to substantiate. There really isn't any way to directly compare the specificity of instrumental exams to that of crystal tests for that reason. I believe in the specificity of an MS, and can prove it through chemistry theory. I also believe in the specificity of crystal tests in the hands of an accomplished user, I reall can. If so, I'm listening. >>As far as training goes: I don't understand why it takes more than a couple of weeks to learn to do microchemical testing of the commonly encountered drugs. << Well, I can't speak for others, but I would have to personally conduct many thousands of tests before I could say in good conscience that I have demonstrated the ability to distinguish the crystalline structures produced by those common drugs from the structures produced by millions of less common drugs/chemicals, and do it with enough certainty that no other exams are necessary. You can't ID the crystal test result for cocaine as certain proof of cocaine until you've used that same test on many other compounds, including those with similar structures that produce similar crystal forms, and proven to yourself that you can tell the difference with your own eyes. It takes a long time to gain that level of experience and the justified confidence that comes with it, because it depends not only on crystal theory, but on memory and recognition. After only a couple of weeks of training as a novice crystal test user, all you would have is your instructor's assurance that you will be able to distinguish cocaine crystals from all other possibilities, but you wouldn't have experienced enough comparisons to prove it, not even to yourself (at least I wouldn't). You need extensive experience to rely on your conclusion with a crystal test as a confirmatory exam. Until I had that experience, I couldn't be sure that I was not mistaking a similar crystal form result for that of cocaine's. Conversely, in a couple of weeks a degreed chemist can learn to operate a GC/MS, and the very first time you run cocaine and match it to a standard you can be certain you have properly ID'd it because the ID doesn't depend on recognition and memory at all, it depends entirely on MS theory and physical structure of the analyte. If you carried out the test properly you can rely on the conclusion even without extensive experience. You know the result is a reliable confirmatory test because MS theory indicates that no other compound will produce an MS similar enough to be mistaken for cocaine, and so I would be comfortable with GC/MS as a confirmatory test even if I were a novice. Maybe crystal theory would give you that same warm fuzzy about a microcrystal test result for cocaine the first time you used it, but it wouldn't me. I don't see crystal theory allowing me that degree of confidence at the onset of my career. I'd want lots and lots of experience before I would be comfortable enough to rely on it as more than a presumptive exam, even though I believe it CAN be a confirmatory exam. >>Presumably the people doing this testing have some uderstanding of chemistry, and are entitled to rely on the work done by other chemists over the years to show what to expect. Does the person using an IR have to reproduce all of the chemistry behind the conclusion that a particular spectrum is what you get with some particular drug?<< The theory of IR absorption by molecules allows that no two IR spectra of structurally different compounds will be exactly alike. Does crystal theory allow that statement for a single crystal test (or even two or three tests)? Maybe it does, but if so I'm ignorant of it. >>And, actually getting some answers IS important. Labs who do primarily crystal tests turn out roughly 1000 cases per analyst per month. Labs that do instrumental analysis seem to do about 5% of that figure. (If anyone has any contrary data, please provide it to the list).<< You could get even more cases done if you simply relied on manufacturers' tablet markings or police field test kits and skipped lab analysis altogether, but the boost in productivity wouldn't justify the practice. Expediency can't be used to justify a technique that lacks specificity. I'm NOT saying crystal tests lack specificity (again, I believe they are very specific in the hands of accomplished users), but productivity is a weak argument for establishing a technique as a confirmatory test. Speed is important, but must be a distant second consideration when compared to accuracy. No one doubts the speed of crystal tests, it's the specificity of the technique that is in dispute between those who believe in crystal tests as a confirmatory exam and those who don't. Again, I count myself a believer, but only when the analyst has extensive experience. >>And the evidence is very strong that the former do a more accurate job than the latter.<< Although I haven't personally read the studies which produced this evidence, that's considered a well established fact and isn't in dispute as far as I know. In fact I've made that same point myself several times before on this list. But most crystal test users I know have many years of experience and I wonder if that has skewed the results of those studies. Were the studies controlled for years of experience? I'd like to see a study done comparing the proficiencies of probationary analysts with no experience beyond training who use crystal tests alone versus those who use instrumental analysis alone. Maybe that would settle the issue once and for all, or at least convince those like me that you DON'T need years of experience to rely on crystal tests alone. I still think you do, but I could be convinced otherwise. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:53:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANr4R25932 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANr3i25926 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:53:04 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Microchemical tests Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:53:04 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Microchemical tests Thread-Index: AcJwuCtM6N/gPtxiEdaHQQABA+kqaA== From: "Robert Parsons" To: "FORENS-L POSTING (E-mail)" X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANr4S25932 Content-Length: 4814 John Bowden wrote: >>Yes indeed, MS, IR and NMR give one a great deal of information about a compound, but they are no where the end-all that Bob proposes. Perhaps, the best known mass spectrometrist in the world, Dr. Fred McLafferty, states that the only true way to confirm an identification is by running known standards under the same instrumental conditions.<< To confirm your ID, yes, that's always the final step in identification of a novel unknown. But you can't run a standard until you have a tentative ID to use in choosing the comparison standard. Instrumental data provides the clues to use in developing a proposed structure for the unknown. Once you have that structure figured out, then you can synthesize and run a standard to confirm or deny the structure as the right one. >>Mass spectrometry, a destructive tool, depends on the attachments of atoms and groups more than their relative positions in space. Crystal formation, with the appropriate reagent, depends much more on the actual spatial configuration.<< Agreed. MS provides data that is more 2D structural than 3D geometric. To determine geometric isomers, one sometimes must turn to other techniques. MS provides no assistance for distinguishing optical isomers at all, as another example. But in both of these cases, the physical structures would be the same, and MS is designed primarily to determine physical structure. Once you have that, if further geometric isomeric determination is necessary you turn to other techniques. But you must start with basic positional structure determination before you can go farther. >>For example morphine has 8 chiral centers, thus the number of possible steroeisomers in 64. One wonders if all the 32 pairs of enantiomers could be distinguished by mass spectrometry. Highly unlikely by the sophistication of mass spectrometers available in the normal forensic laboratory.<< Agreed also. But I never said that forensic labs were in the business of structural elucidation (very few would even attempt it), nor did I say that MS (or any single instrumental exam) provided every bit of data needed to do complete structural elucidation. I indicated that a combination of techniques was needed for that (although sometimes MS alone can be enough). My point was that MS (as well as IR and NMR) does indeed provide some specific structural elucidation data, while crystal tests do not, and that's undeniably true. Using standard quadrupole MS, even the best organic chemist/mass spectroscopist might not distinguish all the enantiomers of morphine, but you could determine that what you were dealing with probably was AN enantiomer of morphine, even if you never had seen morphine before and didn't have a morphine standard spectrum to compare to. To confirm, you'd have to compare to a standard. You couldn't do that basic structural elucidation with crystal tests alone, and so would never know what to compare the unknown TO. >>Crystals very much have defined structures. At least that is what Dr. Pauling used to tell us freshmen in chemistry class. Indeed, the vast majority of identifications of complex organic compounds, for example proteins, have been elucidated by using X-ray (diffraction) crystallography.<< Indeed - but XRD crystallography is an instrumental examination of crystalline structure, not a simple microchemical test using only liquid reagents and an optical microscope. >>It was the diffraction pattern of DNA run by Dr.Rosalind Franklin that enabled Watson & Crick to propose the double helix model for the structure of DNA. She no doubt would have shared the Noble Prize, but it is never awarded posthumously.<< The neglect in crediting Dr. Franklin's contribution was one of the travesties of chemistry history. But again, it was an instrumental examination that allowed the breakthrough, not a microscopic wet chemical test. >>Of course when we speak of microcrystalline methods as used in forensic science, we are not talking of absolute identification, but of pattern recognition. The brain far exceeds any computer in the world in this capacity. Even the modern finger print identification systems compare only to a predetermined number of points. For a simple test, put just one new item in a room and wait for your cat to walk in.<< Exactly. The brain is the final instrument. The only question is in the degree of specificity/reliability of the data the brain is processing to come to a conclusion. That's what's at the core of the dispute between microchemical users and instrumentalists. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From daemon Thu Oct 10 19:55:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ANt7j26129 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ANt6i26123 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:55:07 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: microcrystal tests Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:55:07 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: microcrystal tests Thread-Index: AcJs+6usNx3f9MXSQiWKcdPjECg6gABRZMCg From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ANt6i26124 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6696 Of course chemists deduced structures before the invention of spectroscopy, Pete, but not by crystal tests alone. They used lots of other wet chemical tests, trial syntheses, etc., and took many weeks, months, or years of work to elucidate a single unknown structure (depending on its complexity). Spectroscopy is simply a more powerful, usually more rapid, and certainly more advanced way of doing structural elucidation. It is not necessarily a more certain one. The knowledge and capabilities of the analytical chemist are the most important ingredient, absolutely, but one can't deny that technological advances have improved those capabilities. The structure of DNA would never have been determined using wet chemical techniques alone; Watson and Crick needed the data Rosalind Franklin produced using the relatively primitive spectroscopic methods existing then in order to put all the pieces into place, and technology has advanced far since that breakthrough. Would you want to try to repeat that feat using their methods, or would you chose the more efficient DNA mapping tools available now? Crystal tests provide rapid, reliable identification of common drugs that experienced analysts are well familiar with, but they don't allow true structural elucidation and so can't identify unfamiliar drugs. You need more complex analyses for that, and spectroscopy is the most efficient way to do it. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Peter D. Barnett [mailto:pbarnett@FSALab.com] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 01:17 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: microcrystal tests Gosh, as I recall molecular structures WERE deduced by clever chemists before the days of IR, Mass spec, or NMR. At 07:34 PM 10/4/2002 -0400, Robert Parsons wrote: >Can anyone look at a crystal test result you've never seen before and don't recognize, and deduce the exact molecular structure of the compound which produced it with no more information?  You can by using MS, IR, and NMR, or a combination of them, if you're a good enough organic chemist - even if you have no standard to compare to.  The spectrogram's features demonstrably correlate directly to specific molecular structures which can be specifically elucidated and used to "build" the molecule that produced them from scratch, so it's possible to "read" the spectra and "see" the molecular structure defined by the spectra.  That's what is meant by "molecular information."  Ultimately, you'd want to synthesize a standard of this new drug and run the same tests to confirm the ID, but the process can be reliably done even without a standard. You can't say that for crystal tests. > >As I've said many times before, I believe wholeheartedly in the abilities of accomplished crystal test users, but we have to admit it's a "matching test" - you ID the drug by visually matching the crystals you see to ones you've already seen with standards, understanding that crystal structure is dependant on molecular structure, but not actually being able to "see" the molecular structure within the crystal.  Only in that "match" can any inference to molecular structure be made, so it's indirect evidence (reliable, but indirect).  There's no actual molecular information intrinsic to the crystals themselves provided, so there's no way to ID an unknown for which you have no standards using crystal tests.  Admittedly, most drugs identified with instrumental tests are done the same way, by "matching" the spectra of the unknown drug to spectra of standards, and few forensic chemists are fluent enough in organic chemistry to actually elucidate structures, but the fact remains tha! >t instrumental results DO actually contain that directly "readable" molecular information (recognized or not), while crystal tests do not. > >Bob Parsons, F-ABC >Forensic Chemist >Regional Crime Laboratory >at Indian River Community College >Ft. Pierce, FL > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Peter D. Barnett [mailto:pbarnett@fsalab.com] >Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:40 >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Re: microcrystal tests > > >At 07:28 AM 9/19/02 -0700, idearmo@wsp.wa.gov wrote: >>Thank you all for your kind responses to the inquiry on microcrystals.  Some >>here in Washington continue to use them, while others have been trained in >>their use and have discontinued using them.  In our labs, microcrystals are >>used mainly in identifying meth and cocaine, but only in conjunction with an >>instrumental method providing molecular information and reviewable data.  It >>remains to be seen what position SWGDRUG will take in the future regarding > >I don't understand why you say that instrumental methods provide molecular >information, and imply therefor that crystal tests do not. Should we assume >that crystals are a function of some other property than the arrangement of >atoms in a molecule? > >As far as reviewable data is concerned, there are just as many >opportunities for spectra to be misrepresented as there are for crystals to >be misrepresented. What is the difference to a reviewer in looking at a >spectrum that is recognized as methamphetamine and labelled "exhibit 1 from >case no 2" or a page of notes that says "characteristics crystals with gold >chloride were obtained on exhibit 1 from case no. 2." The only way to be >sure that EITHER answer is correct is to redo the analysis. That should be >the routine part of the quality control process in any scientific operation >-- not simply a review of the paperwork. > >If administrators get a warm and fuzzy feeling from seeing spectra in drug >analysts' records they should realize it is not a guarantee of much (in >fact, it may just be the opposite), and it comes at a huge sacrifice in >productivity. (Not that productivity is the most important goal, but what >is the point of doing a drug analysis if it takes longer that about a week >to get the results back?) > >P.S. It sounds like there were a lot of off-list responses on this >topic.  It is a shame that people find it necessary to respond off list. >Are they unwilling to state their opinions publicly?  These kinds of >discussions should take place in other forums than the hallowed grounds of >SWGDRUG meetings. > >Pete Barnett > > >Peter D. Barnett >Forensic Science Associates >Richmond CA >510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com > >http://www.fsalab.com > Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Oct 10 20:00:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9B007U26385 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9B006i26379 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:00:06 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: bounced message Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:00:06 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: bounced message Thread-Index: AcJwWUxul20rZ1LcQq+/iCrxz1EEUgAFTSug From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9B006i26380 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3130 The ironic thing about this whole discussion is that I've always supported crystal tests in all my posts on the topic. I simply noted in response to someone's question that they don't provide the molecular information needed to do structural elucidation of a true unknown, but I never indicated I thought they are unreliable for identification of common drugs. I've repeatedly said I have no doubts about the capabilities of accomplished crystal test users in the identification of common drugs, I just have difficulty justifying crystal tests as confirmatory tests on a purely theoretical basis. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- Yes, Clarke stated this, but he also said,"it remains of considerable value for confirmatory purposes." He further states, "It's real value is as a means of final identification made from chromatographic or spectrophotometric evidence, its extreme simplicity, the rapidity with which it may be performed, and its high degree of specificity, rendering it ideal for this purpose." It appears, that crystal test are not suitable for screening an unknown drug, but rather confirming instrumental method. Clarke loved the ide of specificity couple with therapidity of analysis. He was involved indeveloping several modifications of crystal tests, hence I believe he endorsed them whole heartedly. On page 139, in the last paragraph, clarke states unequivocably, "A particular instance where the microcrystal test is practically the only method of distinguishing between compounds is that of optical isomers." 'Nuff said! Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Microcrystal tests Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:48:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" I have found this debate interesting. Being a firm instrumentalist I thought that this quote might be of interest, "The microcrystal test is unsuitable as a primary method of identification of an unknown compound, as it does not lend itself to form the basis of an identification scheme." I noticed the words primary and unsuitable myself. The source of this quote... E.G.C Clarke's Isolation and Identification of Drugs. 1969 pg 135. My question is why is it acceptable now to use microcrystal tests as the primary means of identification when it wasn't (according to Clarke) 30years ago? Especially when 1969 was long before the common use of GC/MS and FTIR. As for speed of analysis we average 100 to 150 cases per month per analyst. And when should speed ever have more weight than best scientific practice, especially when we are talking about denying someone their liberty? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Oct 10 20:01:49 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9B01nG26569 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9B01mi26563 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:01:49 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: never just Xtals Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:01:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: never just Xtals Thread-Index: AcJwdtvCRM7lJFwoQlyVJSeNGWRBbwAADiDA From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9B01mi26564 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2382 But John, there's that last part that is the crux of the argument - "...then on to an instrument for confirmation..." The instrumentalists believe that instrumental confirmation is an obligatory step for confirmation of identification, while the strongest crystal test supporters believe it's totally unnecessary, i.e., that the crystal test itself is the only confirmatory test needed and no instrumental analysis of any kind is required. To use TWGDRUG classifications, I personally consider crystal tests a class "B" exam (sorry Pete, you'll never convince me that any single crystal test is as specific as an MS), but I also believe that enough class "B" and "C" exams, taken TOGETHER, can amount to the same degree of certainty as the class "A" instrumental exams (MS, IR, and NMR), for the very reasons you cite below. I don't think anyone advocates calling an identification solely on the basis of a single crystal test, but rather on the basis of multiple crystal tests or a crystal test in addition to other screening tests, just as you outlined, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: John Houde [mailto:john@calicopress.com] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:56 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: never just Xtals RE Clarke, I concur with Greg L. I would never advise anyone to use a single microcrystal test to identify an unknown drug. But, as I have taught so many budding analysts, I WOULD use it to identify a pre-screened compound. There is so much information to be gleaned from a seemingly simple screening test. Let's use the cocaine presumptive screen, the cobalt thiocyanate spot test. I would never allow my students to simply say "the spot test was blue, so it was positive...now, onto the crystal test." NOPE! I want them to notice the speed of the reaction, the quality of the color, the texture of any precipitate formed, the solubility of the color (Scott's modification), etc., and all these observations taken TOGETHER, give them a huge amount of information. There aren't very many compounds that can be confused with cocaine HCl by this time. NOW we proceed to the crystal test, for identification and then to an instrument for confirmation and quantitation if required. JNH From daemon Fri Oct 11 16:30:38 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9BKUcQ17574 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9BKUci17568 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LeonStein@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.1ba.79d89a5 (4418); Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:27 -0400 (EDT) From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: <1ba.79d89a5.2ad88ee2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:26 EDT Subject: Hair Workshop Offering To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu CC: tyh@nfstc.org, jas@nfstc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10622 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1442 The NFSTC is sponsoring a workshop on DNA Hair Analysis. The hair workshop has been designed to introduce hair examination to trace evidence and DNA examiners. The advent of DNA has changed the paradigm for hair examination. During the workshop the role of DNA testing in a holistic hair examination protocol is considered. The workshop is scheduled for the week of December 9 - 13, 2002. NFSTC through NIJ is offering a free workshop, which is open to all Public Crime Laboratories in the USA. To ensure that opportunity is provided equitably to Forensic Laboratories across the USA, only one employee from any one laboratory will be accepted in the first round of offers. The cutoff date for registration is October 18, 2002. Positions will be filled on a first come basis. NFSTC will cover all costs including airfare, accommodation, ground transport between the hotel and course venue and per diem at the Federal government rate. If you are interested, please contact Tonya Holden at tyh@nfstc.org. Please include the following information in your expression of interest: Contact Name, Address, Phone/Fax number, Email address, Supervisor Name and Laboratory. David Epstein Director of Scientific Services NFSTC 7881 114th Ave. Largo, FL 33773 727-549-6067 - Ext. 110 727-549-6070 - Fax --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 11 17:03:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9BL3JW18201 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exchange1.isp.state.id.us (exchange1.post.state.id.us [164.165.39.254]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9BL3Fi18195 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by Exchange1.isp.state.id.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:03:48 -0600 Message-ID: From: dave.sincerbeaux@isp.state.id.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Crystals Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:03:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 460 Since the only reference I can find for the determination of Dextro vs. Levo methorphan is via a mircocrystal test, does anyone have a reference(picture) of what the crystals look like? I have a description from E.G.C Clarke stating that the racemic mix are "plates". I need to have an idea of what kind, round, square, rectangular etc. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 11 17:14:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9BLEDQ18523 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9BLEDi18517 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LeonStein@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.198.ecc4d25 (25305) for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:14:09 -0400 (EDT) From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: <198.ecc4d25.2ad89920@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:14:08 EDT Subject: New Position Announcement To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10622 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1379 Deputy Director of Scientific and Technical Services - National Forensic Science Technology Center, Largo, FL Manages the Certified Reference Materials program; manages the Validation Kit program; manages the preparation and distribution of reference materials in compliance with relevant national and international standards; facilitates the development of performance indicators and performance reports for scientific programs; manages the Quality Documents program; acts for the Director of Scientific and Technical Services in their absence; supervises 1 to 3 staff; and represents NFSTC as required at appropriate scientific and technical meetings. Candidates must have a four-year degree in science, and preferably have a graduate degree. Also required is ten years of work experience in forensic science or related areas, including program management experience. The anticipated starting salary is $68-$78K. Qualified candidates should forward a message indicating interest and attach a resume via e-mail to ehy@nfstc.org or fax to 727-549-6070 by 5 PM EDT, Friday, November 8, 2002. EEOE David Epstein Director of Scientific and Technical Services NFSTC 7881 114th Ave. Largo, FL 33773 727-549-6067 - Ext. 110 727-549-6070 - Fax --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Oct 14 22:02:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9F22kk19896 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g9F22ii19890 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Tue Oct 15 15:02:43 2002 +1300 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:02:42 +1300 Message-ID: From: "Ashton, Jason" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Computer Analysis of Bloodspatter Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:02:42 +1300 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 571 I am looking for software packages for analysis of bloodspatter. I know of BackTrack @ http://www.physics.carleton.ca/~carter Does anyone else know of other programs currently available? Jason ------------------------------------------- Jason Ashton Information & Research Services ESR: Institute of Environmental Science & Research Private bag 92021, Hampstead Rd, Mt Albert Auckland, New Zealand --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 09:13:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FDDHs27835 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antares.surnet.ru (antares.surnet.ru [195.54.2.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FDDFi27829 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup.surnet.ru ([212.57.156.102]) by antares.surnet.ru (8.11.6/Joy) with ESMTP id g9FDDBk96445 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:13:12 +0600 (YEKST) Message-ID: <3DAC2500.222573C2@chel.surnet.ru> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:24:01 +0500 From: Vladimir Pouchkarev X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "forens@statgen.ncsu.edu" Subject: e-mail address of John S. Buckleton X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 162 Dear forens-list members, would you tell me e-mail address of John S. Buckleton. Sincerely, Vladimir Pouchkarev Forensic genetic laboratory Chelyabinsk Russia From daemon Tue Oct 15 09:36:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FDarV28650 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FDarj28644 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:36:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from [Mike and Donna Eyring ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2800 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:52:39 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from [Mike and Donna Eyring ] >From forens-owner Mon Oct 14 19:52:38 2002 Received: from mailout.fastq.com (mailout.fastq.com [204.62.193.66]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ENqbi18060 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [216.190.249.66] (d34-osel-phx.fastq.com [216.190.249.66]) by mailout.fastq.com (8.11.3/8.11.3.FastQ-MailOut) with ESMTP id g9ENqXq62638; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:52:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from microfor@sd.fastq.com) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:56:14 -0700 Subject: Re: never just Xtals From: Mike and Donna Eyring To: Robert Parsons , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" on 10/10/02 5:01 PM, Robert Parsons at rparsons@ircc.edu wrote: > But John, there's that last part that is the crux of the argument - "...then > on to an instrument for confirmation..." Gentlemen and Ladies, I'd like to put a slightly different take on this discussion. Let's just make the first step and agree that any crystal test that is being used as the "identifying" test for a compound must be documented by a photograph. I'm not requesting photo's for presumptive crystal tests that are followed by some other identifying test. The rational for this is simple. You certainly would not take my word that I "saw" a GC-MS chromatogram and spectrum or IR data that identified a material as heroin. You wouldn't even accept my drawing of the things I claimed to have seen. You would be quite correct to demand that I show you at least a hard copy of the data. So it should be with crystals. I use crystal tests to identify some things, such as the Hahn/Cropen test for perchlorates. When I do, my bench notes include a photo of the resulting crystals with comments about positive and negative results from reactions with controls and blanks respectively. This is essential because we generally do note measure the physical properties of the crystals we see formed in one of these reactions. No refractive index measurements, no extinction angles, no interfacial angles, no retardation values, just a characteristic set of visual observations are used to reach our decision. What we see needs to be shown as evidence. Sincerely, Mike Eyring From daemon Tue Oct 15 10:13:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FEDR400007 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vms1.TARLETON.EDU (vms1.tarleton.edu [165.95.23.151]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FEDQi29997 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from conversion.vms.tarleton.edu by vms.tarleton.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #40128) id <01KNOSVKR0NK8WYTXU@vms.tarleton.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TCTRM151D (tct-rm151d.tarleton.edu [165.95.136.8]) by vms.tarleton.edu (PMDF V6.1-1 #40129) with SMTP id <01KNOSVKBNSM8Y6R9F@vms.tarleton.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:17 -0500 From: Gerald Piechocki Subject: Ballistic Fingerprinting To: FORENSIC LIST Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 681 Last night on Hardball with Chris Mathews, there was a discussion about ballistic fingerprinting. Of course, they were referring to the recording of land and groove impressions by the firearm manufacturer prior to the weapon being sold. Allegedly, this would allow the firearm to be identified after it was used in a shooting incident. Would the firearms identification people on the list like to respond with the advantages and disadvantages of such a proposal? Cheers... Gerald Piechocki Tarleton State University - Central Texas Office (254)519-5436 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 10:42:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FEgDR00950 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from usacil2.army.mil (usacil2.forscom.army.mil [160.136.216.9]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FEgBi00944 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by usacil2.forscom.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <44CY6HBB>; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:45 -0400 Message-ID: <8782B20DF1F90C4FA5FF5A6787F0CA0305D5AE@usacil2.forscom.army.mil> From: "Tamburini, Ned" To: "'Gerald Piechocki'" , FORENSIC LIST Subject: RE: Ballistic Fingerprinting Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1612 This sounds like a great idea but only one major concern comes to mind: Corrosion and wear change the individual characteristics of firearms (land and groove characteristics in particular) over time. Therefore, these "fingerprints" would only be useful early in the firearms' lifetimes for those subjected to frequent use and environmental exposure. I'm sure it would be very effective, though, for weapons stored in controlled environments and never fired such as those owned by avid collectors. Edmund D. "Ned" Tamburini SA 3936, Forensic Science Coordinator US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory (USACIL) 4553 N. 2nd Street, Bldg 213B Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 Phone: 404-469-7490 Fax: 404-469-3489 Email: tamburinin@usacil-acirs.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Piechocki [mailto:piechocki@tarleton.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:13 AM To: FORENSIC LIST Subject: Ballistic Fingerprinting Last night on Hardball with Chris Mathews, there was a discussion about ballistic fingerprinting. Of course, they were referring to the recording of land and groove impressions by the firearm manufacturer prior to the weapon being sold. Allegedly, this would allow the firearm to be identified after it was used in a shooting incident. Would the firearms identification people on the list like to respond with the advantages and disadvantages of such a proposal? Cheers... Gerald Piechocki Tarleton State University - Central Texas Office (254)519-5436 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 11:25:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FFP4501955 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil (dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil [204.208.124.132]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FFP3i01949 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <45ZHV8R8>; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:24:51 -0500 Message-ID: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439FB0@dasmthgsh666.amedd.army.mil> From: "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" To: FORENSIC LIST Subject: RE: Ballistic Fingerprinting Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:22:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1956 Ought to work fairly well against the 12% of offenders who buy their guns at retail (or whatever smaller % buy NEW guns at retail.) See http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Tamburini, Ned [mailto:TamburiniN@usacil-acirs.army.mil] This sounds like a great idea but only one major concern comes to mind: Corrosion and wear change the individual characteristics of firearms (land and groove characteristics in particular) over time. Therefore, these "fingerprints" would only be useful early in the firearms' lifetimes for those subjected to frequent use and environmental exposure. I'm sure it would be very effective, though, for weapons stored in controlled environments and never fired such as those owned by avid collectors. Edmund D. "Ned" Tamburini SA 3936, Forensic Science Coordinator US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory (USACIL) 4553 N. 2nd Street, Bldg 213B Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 Phone: 404-469-7490 Fax: 404-469-3489 Email: tamburinin@usacil-acirs.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Piechocki [mailto:piechocki@tarleton.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:13 AM To: FORENSIC LIST Subject: Ballistic Fingerprinting Last night on Hardball with Chris Mathews, there was a discussion about ballistic fingerprinting. Of course, they were referring to the recording of land and groove impressions by the firearm manufacturer prior to the weapon being sold. Allegedly, this would allow the firearm to be identified after it was used in a shooting incident. Would the firearms identification people on the list like to respond with the advantages and disadvantages of such a proposal? Cheers... Gerald Piechocki Tarleton State University - Central Texas Office (254)519-5436 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 13:42:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FHgxb04792 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us (fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.214.227]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FHgwi04786 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us (nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us [157.145.216.6]) by fw-1.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP id g9FHenO9000145 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 157.145.4.101 by nts-wss.co.ventura.ca.us with SMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7);); Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:54 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Received: from GWIADOM-Message_Server by srv-gwia.co.ventura.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:42:53 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.5.1 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:40:08 -0700 From: "James Roberts" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Ballistic Fingerprinting MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 11B28C144113912-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9FHgxi04787 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4609 No David, it will not work fairly well, even for that. There can be and generally is quite a bit of change in a firearm just after manufacture in the areas that the equipment uses for comparison. This is not normal wear but a break in period where much more than normal wear changes occur. Tests have shown this to be the case. Enough that the machine would miss most. Ned's "one major concern" is also valid, rust and normal wear do change the firearms identifiable characteristics. I've seen guns changing so fast that you can't even make an identification of consecutively fired test shots to each other, though these are quite uncommon. The necessary computing power to operate such a system would be very large. A couple of years ago at a meeting I asked the people who build the equipment what it would take and they said they had borrowed a Cray to try it for the factory testing programs. That wasn't enough for the initial database that would be involved to operate at a reasonable rate. They further said that it was just a matter of scaling up the computing power, but how much money is to be thrown at this if a Cray isn't enough. Not to mention the fact that the "comparison" is only a ranking system that then requires a person to sit down at the screen and manually do the comparison. Read that to be a trained firearms examiner, not many around and people would demand a premium price. The data base would only include new firearms and would overwhelm the equipment at that. The use of the NIBIN system for relating crimes has value. But it's value would be destroyed by diluting the system with the factory generated material, it would take forever to get through anything. Additionally it would take very little for someone with a little knowledge to alter a firearm before it's criminal use. We do not even try to keep tests from officers guns around as they would not have much value by the time they are needed for comparison if the officer were in a shooting. These "test it at the factory" schemes are just a way of making money for the people that sell the equipment, the bill would of course be added to the cost for honest people that want to buy a gun or a back-door registration. Maybe if the politicians had to pay the bills out of their salaries they would look at whether something was cost effective before requiring it. I will not comment more on the political aspects other than saying that the technical aspects are a good enough reason for dropping the whole idea. Jim Roberts Firearm and Toolmark Examiner >>> "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" 10/15/02 08:22AM >>> Ought to work fairly well against the 12% of offenders who buy their guns at retail (or whatever smaller % buy NEW guns at retail.) See http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Tamburini, Ned [mailto:TamburiniN@usacil-acirs.army.mil] This sounds like a great idea but only one major concern comes to mind: Corrosion and wear change the individual characteristics of firearms (land and groove characteristics in particular) over time. Therefore, these "fingerprints" would only be useful early in the firearms' lifetimes for those subjected to frequent use and environmental exposure. I'm sure it would be very effective, though, for weapons stored in controlled environments and never fired such as those owned by avid collectors. Edmund D. "Ned" Tamburini SA 3936, Forensic Science Coordinator US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory (USACIL) 4553 N. 2nd Street, Bldg 213B Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 Phone: 404-469-7490 Fax: 404-469-3489 Email: tamburinin@usacil-acirs.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Piechocki [mailto:piechocki@tarleton.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:13 AM To: FORENSIC LIST Subject: Ballistic Fingerprinting Last night on Hardball with Chris Mathews, there was a discussion about ballistic fingerprinting. Of course, they were referring to the recording of land and groove impressions by the firearm manufacturer prior to the weapon being sold. Allegedly, this would allow the firearm to be identified after it was used in a shooting incident. Would the firearms identification people on the list like to respond with the advantages and disadvantages of such a proposal? Cheers... Gerald Piechocki Tarleton State University - Central Texas Office (254)519-5436 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 16:02:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FK2fV07711 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com (imo-r07.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.103]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FK2fi07705 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Gismort@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.1bb.7cc2e63 (4418) for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:02:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Gismort@aol.com Message-ID: <1bb.7cc2e63.2addce5c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:02:36 EDT Subject: Laboratory Accreditation To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10638 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 454 Could someone please explain why Laboratory Accreditation is important? Don't all forensic Labs (or any lab) have to be licensed by the state in order to operate? Is it possible for a toxicology lab to operate with only an accreditation by the ABFT? Appreciate any info that anyone can provide. Thank you --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 16:06:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FK6Gf07946 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ucok.edu (mercury.ucok.edu [192.206.65.11]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FK6Fi07939 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Ballistic Fingerprinting To: Gerald Piechocki Cc: FORENSIC LIST , owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: DvonMinden@ucok.edu Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:58:34 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Mercury/UCO(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 10/15/2002 02:58:41 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 536 Interestingly enough, in yesterday's New York Times there was an article on a patent that was issued to a Ivan Grow, an inventor from Kansas City, KA. The patent was for a device that will imprint an individual bar code on each bullet that it shoots (go to http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/14/technology/14PATE.html or see the attached Adobe Acrobat file). David L. von Minden, Ph.D. Director, Bachelor of Science in Forensic Science Degree Program Department of Chemistry University of Central Oklahoma Edmond, OK 73034 405-974-5467 From daemon Tue Oct 15 16:23:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9FKNXS08600 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ucok.edu (mercury.ucok.edu [192.206.65.11]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9FKNQi08583 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Ballistic Fingerprinting To: Gerald Piechocki Cc: FORENSIC LIST , owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: DvonMinden@ucok.edu Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:00:41 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Mercury/UCO(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 10/15/2002 03:15:51 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2922 Interestingly enough, in yesterday's New York Times there was an article on a patent that was issued to a Ivan Grow, an inventor from Kansas City, KA. The patent was for a device that will imprint an individual bar code on each bullet that it shoots (go to http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/14/technology/14PATE.html or see the attached Adobe Acrobat file). Sorry, list members, but I forgot the attachment. David L. von Minden, Ph.D. Director, Bachelor of Science in Forensic Science Degree Program Department of Chemistry University of Central Oklahoma Edmond, OK 73034 405-974-5467 (See attached file: bulletbarcode.pdf) Gerald Piechocki To: FORENSIC LIST Sent by: cc: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statg Subject: Ballistic Fingerprinting en.ncsu.edu 10/15/2002 09:13 AM Last night on Hardball with Chris Mathews, there was a discussion about ballistic fingerprinting. Of course, they were referring to the recording of land and groove impressions by the firearm manufacturer prior to the weapon being sold. Allegedly, this would allow the firearm to be identified after it was used in a shooting incident. Would the firearms identification people on the list like to respond with the advantages and disadvantages of such a proposal? Cheers... Gerald Piechocki Tarleton State University - Central Texas Office (254)519-5436 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/pdf --- From daemon Tue Oct 15 23:04:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9G34kh15201 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barney.sfrn.dnai.com (barney.sfrn.dnai.com [208.59.199.24]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9G34ji15195 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com (sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com [208.59.199.20]) by barney.sfrn.dnai.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g9G2wSe76715; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homey.kruglaw.com (207-172-166-160.s160.tnt1.sfrn.ca.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.166.160]) by sideshow-bob.sfrn.dnai.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g9G32bR20866; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:02:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kim@kruglaw.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20021015200415.00a283e0@pop.sfrn.dnai.com> X-Sender: kmk@pop.sfrn.dnai.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:04:29 -0700 To: Vladimir Pouchkarev , "forens@statgen.ncsu.edu" From: Kim Kruglick Subject: Re: e-mail address of John S. Buckleton In-Reply-To: <3DAC2500.222573C2@chel.surnet.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 531 At 07:24 PM 10/15/2002 +0500, Vladimir Pouchkarev wrote: >Dear forens-list members, >would you tell me e-mail address of John S. Buckleton. >Sincerely, >Vladimir Pouchkarev >Forensic genetic laboratory >Chelyabinsk >Russia Try: JBUCKLET@esr.cri.nz Best regards, Kim Kruglick mailto:kim@kruglaw.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Forensic Resource and Criminal Law Search Site http://www.kruglaw.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Oct 16 08:04:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9GC40w21840 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9GC3xi21834 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.197.42]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021016120400.QUQR459.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:04:00 +0100 Message-ID: <002501c2750b$c766fa60$2ac5fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: John Buckleton's e-mail Address Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:01:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9GC40x21840 Content-Length: 283 Dear List Members, The e-mail address I have John S. Buckleton is as follows: jsb02@fss.org.uk but I'm not sure if that is still accurate. Best Wishes Satish --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Oct 16 10:02:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9GE2kR23971 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9GE2ji23965 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.120]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021016140244.GRRQ292.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:02:44 +0100 Message-ID: <003d01c2751c$5d046b60$78c8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "Forensic-Science@yahoogroups.com" Subject: DNA Databasing Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:00:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9GE2kS23971 Content-Length: 1960 List Members, Could anybody tell me if the following story has resulted not only in DNA of people who have not been convicted, but who have faced court proceedings, having their DNA and fingerprints retained by the relevant police forces, but also having their data stored on the National DNA Database. The police have won the right to retain DNA samples and fingerprints taken from people who have faced court proceedings but never been convicted. Lord Justice Rose and Mr Justice Leveson accepted the practice "might arouse strong feelings". They ruled that it complies with the European Convention on Human Rights and is not open to abuse. Two senior judges rejected test case challenges against the practice brought on behalf of "S", a 12-year-old boy who had been charged with attempted robbery and Michael Marper, from Stradbroke, Sheffield, who had been arrested on harassment charges. S was acquitted and the charges against Marper eventually discontinued at Sheffield magistrates court when his alleged victim, his partner, dropped her complaint. In a recent one-day hearing, Richard Gordon QC, appearing for both applicants, said South Yorkshire Police refused requests that the samples and prints they had given be destroyed. The QC accused the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire of operating an unlawful blanket policy of retaining all DNA samples and fingerprints, except in undefined exceptional circumstances. He argued it was not the intention of Parliament that innocent people who became caught up in the criminal justice system "should have aspects of their identity retained and used by police for ever and a day". Many other forces had similar policies, including the Metropolitan Police. Story filed: 11:16 Friday 22nd March 2002 Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Oct 16 10:38:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9GEcVv25126 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9GEcUi25120 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.197.19]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021016143829.WJBO459.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:38:29 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c27521$5c29a980$13c5fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "Forensic-Science@yahoogroups.com" Subject: DNA Databases Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:36:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9GEcVw25126 Content-Length: 1597 I am doing some research on DNA Databases. It would help greatly if I receive information from as many countries as possible regarding their Databases. In particular I need to know: (1) What system the Databases use, (meaning which DNA testing systems i.e. SGM+, etc.)? (2) Are the computer systems used compatible with those used in other jurisdictions? (3) Who is the custodian of that jurisdiction's National DNA Database? (4) Under the legislation that established the National DNA Database in each jurisdiction, whose DNA can be taken and stored on the DNA Database by force if required? (5) Do these jurisdictions allow for people to volunteer their DNA to be stored on the National DNA Database? (6) What is actually stored on the National DNA Database, i.e. the DNA iself, just the computerised representation of the result or both? (7) In such countries as permit its citizens to volunteer their DNA for DNA databasing, what is the take-up rate among ordinary people? (8) In countries that have DNA Databases do forensic scientists and law enforcement personnel have their DNA stored on the DNA Database for elimination purposes? (9) In jurisdictions that have National DNA Databases are these limited to use in criminal investigations, or are they available for medical use as well? (10) To whom is access to information on such databases restricted? Thank you all for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Oct 17 18:07:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9HM7II00254 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9HM7Hi00248 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:07:18 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: forensic biology educational requirements X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:07:16 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: forensic biology educational requirements Thread-Index: AcJ2KYtD6YHOIOGwEdaHQQABA+kqaA== From: "Robert Parsons" To: "FORENS-L POSTING (E-mail)" , , X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9HM7IJ00254 Content-Length: 2440 Recently, I advised someone on this list who was interested in forensic biology that they needed some graduate credits in molecular biology and/or genetics to do forensic DNA analysis. Some astute colleagues of mine kindly pointed out to me that wasn't entirely correct. The courses can be undergraduate level for bench-level caseworkers; graduate credits are needed only by biologists serving as Technical Leaders/supervisors. I based my comment on what some biologist friends of mine had to do. They had to go back to school to earn graduate credits in molecular bio to meet the DAB guidelines, which are now SWGDAM guidelines. But perhaps that was because they lacked these courses as undergraduates, or perhaps the original DAB guidelines were more demanding than the eventual SWGDAM versions. Anyway, here's what the SWGDAM guide says now regarding minimum educational requirements for forensic DNA analysis work (taken from http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/forensicstd.htm): "5.2.1 Degree requirements: The technical manager or leader of a laboratory shall have at a minimum a Master's degree in biology-, chemistry- or forensic science- related area and successfully completed a minimum of 12 semester or equivalent credit hours of a combination of undergraduate and graduate course work covering the subject areas of biochemistry, genetics and molecular biology (molecular genetics, recombinant DNA technology), or other subjects which provide a basic understanding of the foundation of forensic DNA analysis as well as statistics and/or population genetics as it applies to forensic DNA analysis. 5.3 Examiner/analyst shall have: 5.3.1 at a minimum a BA/BS degree or its equivalent degree in biology-, chemistry- or forensic science- related area and must have successfully completed college course work (graduate or undergraduate level) covering the subject areas of biochemistry, genetics and molecular biology (molecular genetics, recombinant DNA technology) or other subjects which provide a basic understanding of the foundation of forensic DNA analysis, as well as course work and/or training in statistics and population genetics as it applies to forensic DNA analysis." Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From daemon Thu Oct 17 22:29:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9I2TgI04658 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g9I2Tei04652 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Fri Oct 18 15:29:40 2002 +1300 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:29:39 +1300 Message-ID: From: "Walsh, Kevan" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: John Buckleton's e-mail Address Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:29:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1220 I have forwarded John's current email address to Vladimir (who originally requested it). I'm not sure of the etiquette of giving email addresses out to all list members when John isn't a member of the list, so I kept the correspondence between V and I. [Since John works at the moment for the same organisation as I do, you might be able to guess his email address anyhow from mine, if anyone else wants to email him] > Kevan Walsh > ESR > Private Bag 92021 > Auckland > NEW ZEALAND > Ph #64-9-8153903 > Fax #64-9- 8496046 > email: kevan.walsh@esr.cri.nz > http://www.esr.cri.nz > For images of New Zealand, visit www.purenz.com > > ---------- > From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com[SMTP:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] > Reply To: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com > Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 1:01 a.m. > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: John Buckleton's e-mail Address > Importance: High > > Dear List Members, > > The e-mail address I have John S. Buckleton is as follows: > jsb02@fss.org.uk but I'm not sure if that is still accurate. > > Best Wishes > > Satish > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Thu Oct 17 23:23:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9I3NZg06037 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9I3NYi06031 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Lfd1emt@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.1ac.a78ddc4 (3657) for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:23:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Lfd1emt@aol.com Message-ID: <1ac.a78ddc4.2ae0d8b1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:23:29 EDT Subject: Death Investigation Question To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10578 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1299 Gentlemen and Ladies, I am working on the following case and have the following questions: A 45 y/o man was in the care of a County Coroner, who happened to be the owner/operator of a local Funeral Home. As per county requirements, the deceased body was sent to be embalmed, prior to an autopsy. As a small jurisdiction our local hospital does not have a refrigeration unit available, and the Coroner's Office does not have one either - they work out of the hospital basement. We believe that the Funeral Director (Coroner), had embalmed the deceased body alive, as a method of homicide. Then placed the body in in a dumpster and paid a homeless person to call 9-11, and report a body (then flee the scene - with no way to track him). My questions are as follows: (1) Can a person subdued, by mechanical means (i.e. duct tape, rope or other) be embalmed while still alive, and what are the results of such. (2) During autopsy, is it possible to determine if a person died from being embalmed, and if so what signs would be present at Autopsy. (3) What is the chemical composition of Embalming fluid. Thank you for your help. R. Homewood Acting Coroner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 18 14:54:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9IIslW21744 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9IIslw21738 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:54:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Elvis Terrier" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1604 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:04:32 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Elvis Terrier" ] >From forens-owner Fri Oct 18 00:04:31 2002 Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9I44Vi06818 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ivful2.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.250.162] helo=oemcomputer) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 182OND-0003ne-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:04:31 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Elvis Terrier" To: Subject: preserving the crime scene Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:03:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1ac.a78ddc4.2ae0d8b1@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Hello list, I am hoping you can help me. I am looking for advice on what cops and EMS workers should know about preserving a crime scene. What could they do to make evidence collection easier when it's your turn on the scene? Thanks in advance. Cat From daemon Fri Oct 18 17:14:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9ILENi24916 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw2.ircc.edu (fw2.ircc.edu [209.149.16.3]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9ILEMi24910 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ex1.ircc.edu by fw2.ircc.edu via smtpd (for [152.14.14.17]) with ESMTP; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:14:22 -0400 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: Laboratory Accreditation Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:14:22 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Laboratory Accreditation Thread-Index: AcJ0h2iNMe2JD1+BS3ar8TpsaHkhigACJCHw From: "Robert Parsons" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9ILEMi24911 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3282 Laboratory accreditation allows an independent review of a laboratory's operational and managerial practices by a disinterested outside body with no affiliation to the lab (and therefore no bias for or against it). Accreditation standards are designed to ascertain whether or not the laboratory has the necessary physical plant, qualified staff, equipment, supplies, budget, proper analytical procedures, quality control checks and safeguards, and proper management oversight to produce reliable, high-quality results. Accreditation is a way through which labs can voluntarily demonstrate to their clients and other interested parties that they have met national consensus standards for the proper operation of a high-quality laboratory. To most people, this is more meaningful than showing that you meet your own self-established standards or those of your state government. Accreditation is one leg of what is known as the "quality triangle" - lab accreditation, individual staff certification, and method standardization. Taken together, these voluntary programs establish national minimum consensus standards for promoting high-quality work, by addressing the quality of the institution, the competency of the individual who works within the institution, and the sufficiency of the methods used by those individuals. No, with the exception of medical labs and some environmental labs, most laboratories (forensic or any other kind) generally do not have to be "licensed" by the state or any other government body in order to operate. Only one state I know of requires any kind of "licensure" for forensic labs, and that requirement only applies to government crime labs: New York requires government forensic labs to be ASCLD-LAB accredited, but there is no such requirement for private labs. Again, medical toxicology labs usually have to be licensed by the state, but a toxicology lab NOT involved in diagnosing patients for medical treatment can operate without any accreditation whatsoever. If the tox lab wishes to do occupational drug monitoring for the federal government, then they need to be accredited by NIDA (National Institute of Drug Abuse), but that's the only other requirement I'm aware of. Some states may also require occupational drug testing labs to be NIDA accredited. Like the ASCLD-LAB accreditation program for general forensic labs, the ABFT accreditation program for forensic tox labs is entirely voluntary. There is no requirement for a forensic tox lab to be accredited in order to operate. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Gismort@aol.com [mailto:Gismort@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 16:03 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Laboratory Accreditation Could someone please explain why Laboratory Accreditation is important? Don't all forensic Labs (or any lab) have to be licensed by the state in order to operate? Is it possible for a toxicology lab to operate with only an accreditation by the ABFT? Appreciate any info that anyone can provide. Thank you --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 18 20:07:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9J07le27442 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9J07ki27436 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WBirkby@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.5b.30031a3a (3874); Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:07:44 -0400 (EDT) From: WBirkby@aol.com Message-ID: <5b.30031a3a.2ae1fc50@aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:07:44 EDT Subject: Re: Death Investigation Question To: Lfd1emt@aol.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1609 R. Homewood Acting Coroner: I have not seen any others on the list responding to your questions, so here's a non-mortician's anwer to your questions. But first, let me say that I have never heard of a govermental medical-legal system which REQUIRED that a body be embalmed PRIOR TO autopsy since it sure screws-up the toxicology, the Cause-of-Death findings, etc. You sure you have this right? But I digress. Your questions in the order asked: 1) Yes, a person could be embalmed before death--at least the procedure could be started prior to death since the victim would not live very long when the blood was drained and the embalming fluid (under pressure) was injected. 2) Signs that the body had been embalmed are the injection sites for the fluids, the trochar hole for the asperation of the bowel contents and the fluids in the heart and lungs, the plastic trochar button sealing this hole in the anterior abdominal area; the mouth sutured shut or wired shut behind the lips and the mouth itself filled with cotton soaked in embalming fluids; the eyeballs each covered with a plastic cap to insure that the eye lids remained closed. These are a few of the outward signs. 3) The composition of the embalming fluids are fairly guarded by the companies that produce them. The main ingrediant of all of them is formalin or formaldehyde with varying amounts of coloring ingredients, etc. Hope that this will assist you somewhat. I am NOT a mortician but I have seen a few. Sincerely, Walter H. Birkby, Ph.D. Forensic Anthropologist Tucson, AZ From daemon Sat Oct 19 16:19:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9JKJ4n11840 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9JKJ2i11834 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A88740B5E; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:52:34 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.200.121.214]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:52:35 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3DB1BAD5.4306CC7F@vsnl.net> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:34:37 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Cc: ls12345@poczta.onet.pl, WBirkby@aol.com Subject: Forensic Anthropology Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1810 Dear List, I have got the following query from Poland. Kindly help. I dont think I am qualified to answer this question. Email ID of the questioner is: ls12345@poczta.onet.pl ***Original Message*** Dear Sir! I'm working as a MD and an anthropologist in one of For. Dpts in Poland. I'd like to ask You about anthropological identification methods You use. I'm specially interested in reconstruction methods. Best regards. ***End of Original Message*** Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Wed Oct 23 20:42:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9O0g6p17772 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.urdirect.net (alpha.urdirect.net [216.136.28.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9O0g5i17766 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (pm3a-11.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.90]) by alpha.urdirect.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id TAA07943 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:42:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha.urdirect.net: Host pm3a-11.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.90] claimed to be default Message-ID: <007701c27af6$413793a0$5a1c88d8@default> Reply-To: "Mike" From: "Mike" To: References: <3C9E5DD4.30E9BEA2@vifp.monash.edu.au> Subject: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:42:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9O0g6q17772 Content-Length: 558 Just heard some guy named "Dr." Brent Turvey pontificate on the FOX News Network about how screwed up the investigation into the sniper murders is and how it is so screwed up due to the involvement of federal agencies. He claimed things were done differently on all the task forces he has been on but I can't find where he ever woreked for any agencies so what task forces has he been on. Has anyone ever had any experience with him? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Oct 23 20:50:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9O0o9c17998 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9O0o8i17992 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KLevenson@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.109.1ab6ee5b (30950) for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:50:06 -0400 (EDT) From: KLevenson@aol.com Message-ID: <109.1ab6ee5b.2ae89dbd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:50:05 EDT Subject: RE: who is brent turvey? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 559 My experience with him is a course I did at a hotel venue on serial homicide. He apparently was in law enforcement at one time and is now on the lecture circuit and part of a sort of "on line" school in forensic science and criminal investigation. Some of us in my course were law enforcement but more were just people interested in forensic science as a hobby. Sincerely, Kathryn Levenson High School Biology Teacher Berkeley, CA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Wed Oct 23 22:56:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9O2ult19970 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9O2uki19964 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216-164-48-82.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com ([216.164.48.82] helo=BART.starpower.net) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 184YAx-00050f-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:56:47 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20021023225210.00bbd098@pop.rcn.com> X-Sender: johnfrench@pop.rcn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:56:58 -0400 To: "Mike" , From: John French Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? In-Reply-To: <007701c27af6$413793a0$5a1c88d8@default> References: <3C9E5DD4.30E9BEA2@vifp.monash.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1119 Interesting question. His on-line "brief" CV doesnt include any prior employment, only his present affiliation and a list of presentations and testimonies. Either his CV isn't up to date or he doesn't have a doctorate. But his portrait on his CV is clearly both dramatic and professional :) See: http://www.corpus-delicti.com/brent/brent_cv.html Oh, and i wouldn't be surprised if he were a member of this list, in which case he could respond directly with his professioanl experience in forensics. John French At 08:42 PM 10/23/2002, Mike wrote: >Just heard some guy named "Dr." Brent Turvey pontificate on the FOX News Network about how screwed up the investigation into the sniper murders is and how it is so screwed up due to the involvement of federal agencies. He claimed things were done differently on all the task forces he has been on but I can't find where he ever woreked for any agencies so what task forces has he been on. Has anyone ever had any experience with him? > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- From daemon Wed Oct 23 23:05:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9O35Lq20257 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe42.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.100]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9O35Ki20251 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:05:22 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: "Mike" , References: <3C9E5DD4.30E9BEA2@vifp.monash.edu.au> <007701c27af6$413793a0$5a1c88d8@default> Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:02:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2002 03:05:22.0039 (UTC) FILETIME=[30EAF870:01C27B0A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5896 Mike, Kathryn and List: Brent's doctorate is news to me and as suggested by others, I am certainly one of the leading 'Turvey"-philes you'll probably find. The last time I checked he was geographically isolated, making accusations against police departments in Sitka, Alaska, where he lives with the daughter of his last client, George Baggen. George retained his services to investigate the death of his other daughter, Jessica Baggen, who was raped and murdered in Sitka, Alaska. The crime is, as yet unsolved. Turvey's contribution as a 'criminal, profiler, and forensic scientist' has been as follows: 1. Read the reports from legitimate forensic scientists 2. Determine, using his secret patented "deductive profiling method", which according to Bond University he invented (I am not making this up), determine that the suspect must have red/blonde or brown hair because red, blonde or brown hairs were found on the victim. 3. Have at detective with access to Alaska's state database for operator licenses print out the name of every current (the case is over six years old now) resident in Sitka who is male, 17-35, with red/blonde/brown hair 4. Demand DNA swabs from each and every person identified in 3. Oh and a couple other things. In March of 2001, Turvey moved in with his clients other daughter, abandoning his wife of six years. I suppose I should mention that in furtherance of his affair with his client's daughter, he used information he gained in confidence as part of his access to the case files. In January of 2002, to follow on his other conquests, he alleged that the entire Sitka Police Department had engaged in obstruction, fabrication of evidence, destruction of government records (his photo id, showing he had actually been made a 'sworn' officer, for the sake of chain of custody and access requirements). An investigation by the Alaska State Troopers followed. One of those troopers called me, as my name was mentioned in his many allegations against Sitka PD. The troopers name is Lantze Dahlke. Unlike some states, Lantze is trained as an investigator as opposed to being a patrolman. He understood the distinctions I made when I said that Mr. Turvey was not, in fact, a forensic scientist, had no training in any cognizable area of science and yet holds himself out as a 'forensic scientist'. When the investigation concluded earlier this year, the prosecutor concluded that the charges were mendacious, self-serving and lacked any foundation in fact. The man is not a forensic scientist. He has no training in any legitimate science. Dr. Lee Colwell, who is the director of the Arkansas Criminal Justice Institute, part of the University of Arkansas System, declined to hire Mr. Turvey in 1997 because he lacked any experience as a forensic scientist at all. When I enquired as to the reasons why, Dr. Colwell told me that he had told Mr. Turvey that he was looking for somebody with a substantial amount of experience working in some field of forensic science. In Dr. Colwell's opinion, Turvey did not possess even the entry level of education he felt would be required for employment. As a profiler, I have read Mr. Turvey's sworn statements that he has "trained with profilers, the people who do the work". While I am well acquainted with some credible profilers, and have at least a passing acquaintance with others, none of them have ever admitted to having provided him training as a profiler. For a time, Mr. Turvey claimed that well respected people at the FBI including Bill Hagmaier had, in fact, engaged in a campaign to undermine his success as a profiler. His specific allegation, in a latter to a past AAFS president, alleged that Bill Hagmaier had contacted Dr. Thomas Johnson, dean of the School of Public Safety at the University of New Haven and demanded Turvey's termination. I contacted Dr. Johnson directly and put my questions to him directly. He stated flatly that while Hagmaier had contacted him, he at no time was anything less than a gentleman. That the call was made as one professional to another, and that he had concern for what Mr. Turvey had done on his website reflecting poorly on the reputation of that prestigious institution. Academically, Turvey has expropriated the work product of other people for his online courses, most notably Vernon Geberth. While he credits Dr. Geberth with some measure of distinction, he fails to tell people who take his courses that he lifted much of their content directly from "Practical Homicide". Another thing I've noticed is that in reviewing a few volumes of his testimony and depositions, he gives almost word for word explanations from books by John Douglas, Supervisory Agent (ret), FBI. One of the amusing facets of this is while Turvey assaults the FBI's reputation and in particular the 'deductive' methods he assigns to them, he still cites the Crime Classification Manual, which in itself is a deductive classification of crime. While there is volumes more, I hope this answers some of your questions about the ubiquitous Mr. Turvey, professional defense witness, philanderer and cop hater, MS. Shaun Wheeler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:42 PM Subject: Who is Brent Turvey???? > Just heard some guy named "Dr." Brent Turvey pontificate on the FOX News Network about how screwed up the investigation into the sniper murders is and how it is so screwed up due to the involvement of federal agencies. He claimed things were done differently on all the task forces he has been on but I can't find where he ever woreked for any agencies so what task forces has he been on. Has anyone ever had any experience with him? > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Thu Oct 24 08:36:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9OCaLB27236 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9OCaKm27230 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:36:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Elvis Terrier" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2461 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:49:02 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Elvis Terrier" ] >From forens-owner Wed Oct 23 23:49:01 2002 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9O3n0i21065 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ivfui5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.250.69] helo=oemcomputer) by smtp6.mindspring.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 184YzS-0001wx-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:48:59 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Elvis Terrier" To: "Mike" , Subject: RE: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:48:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <007701c27af6$413793a0$5a1c88d8@default> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Brent Turvey is half of Knowledge Solutions, an Oregon-based training and consulting agency. Looks like he has an MS in forensic science, so he's not a doctor. He is also an author and the secretary of the Academy of Behavioral Profiling. http://www.corpus-delicti.com/brent/brent_cv.html Catten -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:43 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Who is Brent Turvey???? Just heard some guy named "Dr." Brent Turvey pontificate on the FOX News Network about how screwed up the investigation into the sniper murders is and how it is so screwed up due to the involvement of federal agencies. He claimed things were done differently on all the task forces he has been on but I can't find where he ever woreked for any agencies so what task forces has he been on. Has anyone ever had any experience with him? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Oct 24 08:42:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9OCg2b27601 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from red02.uspis.gov ([204.117.11.226]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g9OCfwi27595 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uspis.gov by red02.uspis.gov via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 24 Oct 2002 12:41:59 UT Received: by itcsmtp01.uspis.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:41:51 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Smith, Stephanie L" To: "'shaun wheeler'" , Mike , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:41:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6255 Shaun, All of your other hatred of Brent aside. . . I must say, he actually corrected the Fox news correspondent who called him Dr. Turvey. Stephanie Smith -----Original Message----- From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:02 PM To: Mike; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? Mike, Kathryn and List: Brent's doctorate is news to me and as suggested by others, I am certainly one of the leading 'Turvey"-philes you'll probably find. The last time I checked he was geographically isolated, making accusations against police departments in Sitka, Alaska, where he lives with the daughter of his last client, George Baggen. George retained his services to investigate the death of his other daughter, Jessica Baggen, who was raped and murdered in Sitka, Alaska. The crime is, as yet unsolved. Turvey's contribution as a 'criminal, profiler, and forensic scientist' has been as follows: 1. Read the reports from legitimate forensic scientists 2. Determine, using his secret patented "deductive profiling method", which according to Bond University he invented (I am not making this up), determine that the suspect must have red/blonde or brown hair because red, blonde or brown hairs were found on the victim. 3. Have at detective with access to Alaska's state database for operator licenses print out the name of every current (the case is over six years old now) resident in Sitka who is male, 17-35, with red/blonde/brown hair 4. Demand DNA swabs from each and every person identified in 3. Oh and a couple other things. In March of 2001, Turvey moved in with his clients other daughter, abandoning his wife of six years. I suppose I should mention that in furtherance of his affair with his client's daughter, he used information he gained in confidence as part of his access to the case files. In January of 2002, to follow on his other conquests, he alleged that the entire Sitka Police Department had engaged in obstruction, fabrication of evidence, destruction of government records (his photo id, showing he had actually been made a 'sworn' officer, for the sake of chain of custody and access requirements). An investigation by the Alaska State Troopers followed. One of those troopers called me, as my name was mentioned in his many allegations against Sitka PD. The troopers name is Lantze Dahlke. Unlike some states, Lantze is trained as an investigator as opposed to being a patrolman. He understood the distinctions I made when I said that Mr. Turvey was not, in fact, a forensic scientist, had no training in any cognizable area of science and yet holds himself out as a 'forensic scientist'. When the investigation concluded earlier this year, the prosecutor concluded that the charges were mendacious, self-serving and lacked any foundation in fact. The man is not a forensic scientist. He has no training in any legitimate science. Dr. Lee Colwell, who is the director of the Arkansas Criminal Justice Institute, part of the University of Arkansas System, declined to hire Mr. Turvey in 1997 because he lacked any experience as a forensic scientist at all. When I enquired as to the reasons why, Dr. Colwell told me that he had told Mr. Turvey that he was looking for somebody with a substantial amount of experience working in some field of forensic science. In Dr. Colwell's opinion, Turvey did not possess even the entry level of education he felt would be required for employment. As a profiler, I have read Mr. Turvey's sworn statements that he has "trained with profilers, the people who do the work". While I am well acquainted with some credible profilers, and have at least a passing acquaintance with others, none of them have ever admitted to having provided him training as a profiler. For a time, Mr. Turvey claimed that well respected people at the FBI including Bill Hagmaier had, in fact, engaged in a campaign to undermine his success as a profiler. His specific allegation, in a latter to a past AAFS president, alleged that Bill Hagmaier had contacted Dr. Thomas Johnson, dean of the School of Public Safety at the University of New Haven and demanded Turvey's termination. I contacted Dr. Johnson directly and put my questions to him directly. He stated flatly that while Hagmaier had contacted him, he at no time was anything less than a gentleman. That the call was made as one professional to another, and that he had concern for what Mr. Turvey had done on his website reflecting poorly on the reputation of that prestigious institution. Academically, Turvey has expropriated the work product of other people for his online courses, most notably Vernon Geberth. While he credits Dr. Geberth with some measure of distinction, he fails to tell people who take his courses that he lifted much of their content directly from "Practical Homicide". Another thing I've noticed is that in reviewing a few volumes of his testimony and depositions, he gives almost word for word explanations from books by John Douglas, Supervisory Agent (ret), FBI. One of the amusing facets of this is while Turvey assaults the FBI's reputation and in particular the 'deductive' methods he assigns to them, he still cites the Crime Classification Manual, which in itself is a deductive classification of crime. While there is volumes more, I hope this answers some of your questions about the ubiquitous Mr. Turvey, professional defense witness, philanderer and cop hater, MS. Shaun Wheeler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:42 PM Subject: Who is Brent Turvey???? > Just heard some guy named "Dr." Brent Turvey pontificate on the FOX > News Network about how screwed up the investigation into the sniper murders is and how it is so screwed up due to the involvement of federal agencies. He claimed things were done differently on all the task forces he has been on but I can't find where he ever woreked for any agencies so what task forces has he been on. Has anyone ever had any experience with him? > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Thu Oct 24 14:49:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9OInVw06560 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9OInRi06543 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37994411DF; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:18:37 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.200.101.252]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:18:43 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3DB83C6A.61055920@vsnl.net> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:01:06 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Cc: mlee@e-lwa.com Subject: Career in Crime Scene Investigation Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1971 Dear List, I have received the following query from a youngster ***Original Message*** Dr. Aggrawal, I am eagerly awaiting any information you have in regards to a career in crime scene investigation. I would appreciate any ideas, suggestions or encouragement you may have. I have been interested and drawn to a career in law ever since I can remember and crime scene has always fascinated me. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me whatever information you may have. Regards, Michele Lee ***End of Original Message*** Kindly help. The Email of the youngster is mlee@e-lwa.com Many thanks Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Thu Oct 24 15:07:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9OJ7VB07228 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.doce.ufl.edu (n128-227-82-154.xlate.ufl.edu [128.227.82.154]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9OJ7Ui07222 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail.dce.ufl.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:07:17 -0400 Message-ID: <35B4DE93A240D411B4FA00A0C9D18BC5744A5C@mail.dce.ufl.edu> From: Laurie Brown To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: FORENSIC SCIENCE PROGRAMS Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:07:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1391 Dear Forensic and Toxicology Professionals: Earn a Certificate qualification in Forensic Drug Chemistry or Serology and DNA...online! Many working professionals such as you would like to continue working and further your qualifications at the same time. The University of Florida has designed two unique distance learning programs to meet the needs of today's forensic science professionals: Certificate Program in Drug Chemistry: This program is structured to provide the student with a strong foundation in analytical techniques, pharmacology, forensic drug chemistry and organic synthesis. Certificate Program in Forensic DNA and Serology: The certificate program is structured to provide the student with a strong foundation in serology, DNA analysis as they relate to forensic science. To learn more about these programs: * Visit our website for details: www.ForensicTox.ufl.edu * Email Dr. Donna Wielbo at: dwielbo@nfsct.org Best Regards, Ian Tebbett, Ph.D Director P.S. If you have friends or colleagues who may be interested in these programs, please forward this email to them. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Thu Oct 24 18:42:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9OMgtE12053 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe25.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.82]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9OMgsi12047 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:25:56 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: "Smith, Stephanie L" , "Mike" , References: Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:26:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2002 22:25:56.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[52435150:01C27BAC] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 994 Stephanie and List: I truly appreciate your dispassionate fact filled reply. For a moment there I thought somebody would actually dispute the facts that I offered, as opposed to the reference somebody else offered. If it helps, I really enjoy Brent's antics. I can't imagine life without people like him. It would take all the fun out of it. Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Smith, Stephanie L" To: "'shaun wheeler'" ; "Mike" ; Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:41 AM Subject: RE: Who is Brent Turvey???? > Shaun, > > All of your other hatred of Brent aside. . . I must say, he actually > corrected the Fox news correspondent who called him Dr. Turvey. > > Stephanie Smith > > -----Original Message----- > From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:02 PM > To: Mike; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > From daemon Thu Oct 24 23:23:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9P3NKj15921 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.inland.net ([216.35.182.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9P3NIi15915 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (iii-pm3-3-47.inland.net [216.69.224.158]) by ns1.inland.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA19697 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006901c27bd5$dff326a0$9ee045d8@computer> From: "M. H." To: References: <35B4DE93A240D411B4FA00A0C9D18BC5744A5C@mail.dce.ufl.edu> Subject: Re: FORENSIC SCIENCE PROGRAMS Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:23:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1793 I think I can already guess, but how does the list feel about this program? M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurie Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:07 PM Subject: FORENSIC SCIENCE PROGRAMS > Dear Forensic and Toxicology Professionals: > > Earn a Certificate qualification in Forensic Drug Chemistry or Serology and > DNA...online! > Many working professionals such as you would like to continue working and > further your qualifications at the same time. The University of Florida has > designed two unique distance learning programs to meet the needs of today's > forensic science professionals: > Certificate Program in > Drug Chemistry: This program is structured to provide the student with a > strong foundation in analytical techniques, pharmacology, forensic drug > chemistry and organic synthesis. > Certificate Program in > Forensic DNA and Serology: The certificate program is structured to provide > the student with a strong foundation in serology, DNA analysis as they > relate to forensic science. > > To learn more about these programs: > * Visit our website for details: www.ForensicTox.ufl.edu > > * Email Dr. Donna Wielbo at: dwielbo@nfsct.org > Best Regards, > Ian Tebbett, Ph.D > Director > P.S. If you have friends or colleagues who may be interested in these > programs, please forward this email to them. > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > > From daemon Fri Oct 25 00:20:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9P4KMe16963 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe15.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.119]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9P4KLi16957 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:20:21 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: <001b01c27bcf$09c5cd40$95293eca@max> Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:21:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2002 04:20:21.0635 (UTC) FILETIME=[D54C9530:01C27BDD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3085 Lynn: I suspect that you do not know the difference between an opinion and a fact. Allow me to give an example of what the difference is. This is an example of an opinion: "Text in blue attracts my attention much faster than text in black" It is subjective by nature, is conclusory in it's observation with respect to the person who gives it. To add depth and meaning to it for a fact finder or reviewer, it requires more information than the opinion actually contains. For instance, if the writer of that line wrote software for an advanced helicopter navigation suite that used graphics or text, it would be more subjective than if it was written by somebody who studied ergonomics with respect to man/machine interface. Qualifying the writer imparts a greater degree of weight and understanding to the body of text. Here is an example of a fact: "On the Fahrenheit scale, water freezes at a temperature of 32º Fahrenheit and boils at 212º F" The only specialized skills required to challenge it are the ability to boil water (this may be a problem for you, but for most people it will come rather easily) and freeze it while using some type of thermometer. A dictionary might be useful for you as well in attempting this experiment at home. CAUTION: The boiling water can cause severe burns so don't try this without your parents being present! Hope this helps. Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "lynn " To: "shaun wheeler" Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > Ahh, but there is where we differ! We CAN imagine life without you and your > so-called opinions! > > Lynn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shaun wheeler > To: Smith, Stephanie L ; Mike ; > > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:26 AM > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > Stephanie and List: > > > > I truly appreciate your dispassionate fact filled reply. For a moment > there > > I thought somebody would actually dispute the facts that I offered, as > > opposed to the reference somebody else offered. > > > > If it helps, I really enjoy Brent's antics. I can't imagine life without > > people like him. It would take all the fun out of it. > > > > Shaun > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Smith, Stephanie L" > > To: "'shaun wheeler'" ; "Mike" > > ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:41 AM > > Subject: RE: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > Shaun, > > > > > > All of your other hatred of Brent aside. . . I must say, he actually > > > corrected the Fox news correspondent who called him Dr. Turvey. > > > > > > Stephanie Smith > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:02 PM > > > To: Mike; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > From daemon Fri Oct 25 01:02:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9P52Ix17683 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9P52Hi17677 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pdb ([63.203.76.7]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0H4I0046KTZLF4@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:03:47 -0700 From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: FORENSIC SCIENCE PROGRAMS In-reply-to: <006901c27bd5$dff326a0$9ee045d8@computer> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <0H4I0046QTZSF4@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 References: <35B4DE93A240D411B4FA00A0C9D18BC5744A5C@mail.dce.ufl.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1540 At 08:23 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, M. H. wrote: >I think I can already guess, but how does the list feel about this program? > >M. Horton >Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair >Perris High School; Perris, CA It is really not possible to evaluate the program since there is only a description (of the Tox part, not the serology course) on their web site. But I am rather skeptical of on-line learning, in general. You miss several things that a residency program offers: The interaction with peers and mentors, the hands-on experience of a laboratory, and the resources that most universities and colleges have such as libraries. It must be clearly understood by those taking on-line courses that they cannot substitute for a residential college program. They are best applied, I believe, to providing background in a narrow field of study with correspondingly narrow goals for the program. For example, you might be able to teach a course on the theory of operation of the 310 DNA capillary electrophoresis machine to someone who has a reasonably comprehensive knowledge of chemistry, molecular biology and genetics. That would be useful to a person who is faced with learning to use that machine in a new lab. But a person with a degree in criminal justice and "a few biology classes on top" (to quote a recent letter) cannot become a forensic seologist by taking an on-line course. Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Fri Oct 25 01:37:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9P5bFN18230 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe33.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.90]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9P5bDi18224 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:37:14 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: <001b01c27bcf$09c5cd40$95293eca@max> <003201c27be0$c64b2760$91293eca@max> Subject: Brent, Ad Nauseum Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:38:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2002 05:37:14.0452 (UTC) FILETIME=[92C09940:01C27BE8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5817 Lynn: I noted that you posted your questions to me to the ABP Discussion list. For those unfamiliar with the "Academy of Behavioral Profiling", which you apparently are a student member of, I will cover some of my objections in brief. In February of this year, I tendered an ethics complaint against an ABP member, Brent Turvey, to the chair of that committee. Since the organization is rather small, comprised mostly of Brent Turvey, McGrath, Baeza and a few other cronies, the results were fairly predictable. What was not predictable was the stupidity of the ethics chair himself. In his reply to Mr. Turvey (he lacked the integrity to reply to me at all) he said "This person is not a member of ABP, so I cannot act on his complaint." I can just imagine the usefulness of an organization like that. It would in essence only protect members from other members, but not the general public or in any way ensure that members conducted themselves in accordance with their 'guild' like facade. Let me give you an example of how a true professional organization conducts themselves. About four years ago, your icon and mentor, as well as 'inventor' of the 'deductive profiling method' (see Bond University for details), filed an ethics complaint against Barbara Corey-Boulet, Bob Keppel, Phd, and Richard Walter, MS, as well as two agents from the FBI. He intended to file a complaint against a well known and rather attractive profiler from Florida as well, but he mistakenly identified her with the FBI agents she was standing with and as usual, made some errors in his identification. The complaint was filed with the prestigious American Academy of Forensic Science and was acted on accordingly. Ethics complaints are taken seriously by them no matter who files them. At the time, Turvey was an affiliant-applicant, not a member. They reviewed his complaint, found it was without foundation and that closed the first part of his tawdry, vitriolic attack on his betters. Of course the matter was not fully settled. As a member who was not yet approved at a general membership meeting, Turvey's application was of course subject to review. As you might expect, there were people who objected to his application. One of them, who was at the time an Assistant US Attorney in Virginia, Ken Melton (sp?) conducted an investigation into his claims and background. At this point, only two weeks before the general membership meeting in Reno, Nevada, Mr. Turvey withdrew his application and two months later announced the formation of ABP. I guess if you can't meet the standards of others it's just a lot easier to form your own organization. How much significance it means has a lot to do with how well your members conduct themselves. Either you enforce your ethics or you do not. Based on Dr. McGrath's statements, I am convinced that the ethics only apply when another member complains which does no service for the public and offers them no protection. Cheers, Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "lynn " To: "shaun wheeler" Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:41 PM Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > Then how about "qualifying" yourself as a so-called profiler? Still > side-stepping the answer, eh? > > ** The only specialized skills required to challenge it are the ability to > boil > water (this may be a problem for you, but for most people it will come > rather easily) and freeze it while using some type of thermometer. A > dictionary might be useful for you as well in attempting this experiment at > home. CAUTION: The boiling water can cause severe burns so don't try this > without your parents being present!** > > Nice try! Methinks you may have been standing a little too close to the > boiling water at some time! Or some other more toxic substance! > > Bye, sweetie! > > Lynn > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "lynn " > > To: "shaun wheeler" > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:34 PM > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > Ahh, but there is where we differ! We CAN imagine life without you and > > your > > > so-called opinions! > > > > > > Lynn > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: shaun wheeler > > > To: Smith, Stephanie L ; Mike ; > > > > > > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:26 AM > > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > Stephanie and List: > > > > > > > > I truly appreciate your dispassionate fact filled reply. For a moment > > > there > > > > I thought somebody would actually dispute the facts that I offered, as > > > > opposed to the reference somebody else offered. > > > > > > > > If it helps, I really enjoy Brent's antics. I can't imagine life > without > > > > people like him. It would take all the fun out of it. > > > > > > > > Shaun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Smith, Stephanie L" > > > > To: "'shaun wheeler'" ; "Mike" > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:41 AM > > > > Subject: RE: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shaun, > > > > > > > > > > All of your other hatred of Brent aside. . . I must say, he actually > > > > > corrected the Fox news correspondent who called him Dr. Turvey. > > > > > > > > > > Stephanie Smith > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:02 PM > > > > > To: Mike; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > > > > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From daemon Fri Oct 25 08:59:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PCx9p23740 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PCx8p23734 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:59:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 8503 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Brent Turvey" To: References: <3C9E5DD4.30E9BEA2@vifp.monash.edu.au> <007701c27af6$413793a0$5a1c88d8@default> Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:42:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" List members; As most of you are aware, Mr. Wheeler continues is fascination with my professional and private life, and continues to invent and distort facts to harass me and those close to me. This because of my involvement in the highly publicized West Memphis case, and my criticisms of the West Memphis PD. See: www.wm3.org As I am currently involved in litigation that involves Mr. Wheeler, I cannot comment further, except to say that 1) this individual does nothing all day, everyday, except think about me and 2) this individual lives in a trailer in Arkansas, trying desperately to convince others that he is some kind of law enforcement expert/ consultant with a salary range in the high figures. What he is is a telephone operator. He has lured at least one unsuspecting, and ultimately suprised, female out to his trailer under this pretense, and I understand that there are more. For those interested in knowing Mr. Wheeler's true nature, motives and behavior, just take a look at his website where he harasses and maligns just about anyone who disagrees with him, to the point of restraining orders in some cases (he posts under the name Public Enemy Number One, among others, often having straw man arguments with himself under different names): http://pub17.ezboard.com/bmurderincorporated This is only for the uninitiated. I will not comment further on these issues as it is my view that by criticizing / correcting Mr. Wheeler's numerous fabrications and distortions, it would raise them to a level that they do not deserve. Now I have cases to get back to, Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "shaun wheeler" To: "Mike" ; Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:02 PM Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > Mike, Kathryn and List: > > Brent's doctorate is news to me and as suggested by others, I am certainly > one of the leading 'Turvey"-philes you'll probably find. The last time I > checked he was geographically isolated, making accusations against police > departments in Sitka, Alaska, where he lives with the daughter of his last > client, George Baggen. > > George retained his services to investigate the death of his other daughter, > Jessica Baggen, who was raped and murdered in Sitka, Alaska. The crime is, > as yet unsolved. > > Turvey's contribution as a 'criminal, profiler, and forensic scientist' has > been as follows: > > 1. Read the reports from legitimate forensic scientists > > 2. Determine, using his secret patented "deductive profiling method", which > according to Bond University he invented (I am not making this up), > determine that the suspect must have red/blonde or brown hair because red, > blonde or brown hairs were found on the victim. > > 3. Have at detective with access to Alaska's state database for operator > licenses print out the name of every current (the case is over six years old > now) resident in Sitka who is male, 17-35, with red/blonde/brown hair > > 4. Demand DNA swabs from each and every person identified in 3. > > Oh and a couple other things. > > In March of 2001, Turvey moved in with his clients other daughter, > abandoning his wife of six years. I suppose I should mention that in > furtherance of his affair with his client's daughter, he used information he > gained in confidence as part of his access to the case files. > > In January of 2002, to follow on his other conquests, he alleged that the > entire Sitka Police Department had engaged in obstruction, fabrication of > evidence, destruction of government records (his photo id, showing he had > actually been made a 'sworn' officer, for the sake of chain of custody and > access requirements). An investigation by the Alaska State Troopers > followed. > > One of those troopers called me, as my name was mentioned in his many > allegations against Sitka PD. The troopers name is Lantze Dahlke. Unlike > some states, Lantze is trained as an investigator as opposed to being a > patrolman. He understood the distinctions I made when I said that Mr. Turvey > was not, in fact, a forensic scientist, had no training in any cognizable > area of science and yet holds himself out as a 'forensic scientist'. When > the investigation concluded earlier this year, the prosecutor concluded that > the charges were mendacious, self-serving and lacked any foundation in fact. > > The man is not a forensic scientist. He has no training in any legitimate > science. Dr. Lee Colwell, who is the director of the Arkansas Criminal > Justice Institute, part of the University of Arkansas System, declined to > hire Mr. Turvey in 1997 because he lacked any experience as a forensic > scientist at all. When I enquired as to the reasons why, Dr. Colwell told me > that he had told Mr. Turvey that he was looking for somebody with a > substantial amount of experience working in some field of forensic science. > In Dr. Colwell's opinion, Turvey did not possess even the entry level of > education he felt would be required for employment. > > As a profiler, I have read Mr. Turvey's sworn statements that he has > "trained with profilers, the people who do the work". While I am well > acquainted with some credible profilers, and have at least a passing > acquaintance with others, none of them have ever admitted to having provided > him training as a profiler. > > For a time, Mr. Turvey claimed that well respected people at the FBI > including Bill Hagmaier had, in fact, engaged in a campaign to undermine his > success as a profiler. His specific allegation, in a latter to a past AAFS > president, alleged that Bill Hagmaier had contacted Dr. Thomas Johnson, dean > of the School of Public Safety at the University of New Haven and demanded > Turvey's termination. > > I contacted Dr. Johnson directly and put my questions to him directly. He > stated flatly that while Hagmaier had contacted him, he at no time was > anything less than a gentleman. That the call was made as one professional > to another, and that he had concern for what Mr. Turvey had done on his > website reflecting poorly on the reputation of that prestigious institution. > > Academically, Turvey has expropriated the work product of other people for > his online courses, most notably Vernon Geberth. While he credits Dr. > Geberth with some measure of distinction, he fails to tell people who take > his courses that he lifted much of their content directly from "Practical > Homicide". Another thing I've noticed is that in reviewing a few volumes of > his testimony and depositions, he gives almost word for word explanations > from books by John Douglas, Supervisory Agent (ret), FBI. One of the amusing > facets of this is while Turvey assaults the FBI's reputation and in > particular the 'deductive' methods he assigns to them, he still cites the > Crime Classification Manual, which in itself is a deductive classification > of crime. > > While there is volumes more, I hope this answers some of your questions > about the ubiquitous Mr. Turvey, professional defense witness, philanderer > and cop hater, MS. > > Shaun Wheeler > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:42 PM > Subject: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > Just heard some guy named "Dr." Brent Turvey pontificate on the FOX News > Network about how screwed up the investigation into the sniper murders is > and how it is so screwed up due to the involvement of federal agencies. He > claimed things were done differently on all the task forces he has been on > but I can't find where he ever woreked for any agencies so what task forces > has he been on. Has anyone ever had any experience with him? > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > > From daemon Fri Oct 25 09:27:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PDRba24625 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from laplace.sag.gwu.edu (laplace.sag.gwu.edu [128.164.127.72]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PDRai24619 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lopes.sag.gwu.edu (lopes.sag.gwu.edu [192.168.61.125]) by laplace.sag.gwu.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.4.0.2000.05.17.04.13.p6) with ESMTP id <0H4J004QHHBXZ1@laplace.sag.gwu.edu> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lovelace.nit.gwu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lopes.sag.gwu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PDGYq10871; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acad1 (acad.gwu.edu [128.164.127.128]) by lovelace.nit.gwu.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g9PDRkwg023776; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:27:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Alexis Turner Subject: Re: Brent, Ad Nauseum In-reply-to: X-X-Sender: To: shaun wheeler Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6695 I will address this to the entire list, because I believe that netiquette applies to all of us: If a person on this list takes up a flame war with you in private, it really isn't appropriate for you to then respond in kind publicly. While on some level entertaining for the rest of us, it is particularly rude to the person who initiated the private discussion and who doesn't intend everyone else to see it. --- Alexis Turner Forensic Science student and in my vast amounts of free time Internet Support Specialist/Webmaster On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, shaun wheeler wrote: > Lynn: > > I noted that you posted your questions to me to the ABP Discussion list. For > those unfamiliar with the "Academy of Behavioral Profiling", which you > apparently are a student member of, I will cover some of my objections in > brief. > > In February of this year, I tendered an ethics complaint against an ABP > member, Brent Turvey, to the chair of that committee. Since the organization > is rather small, comprised mostly of Brent Turvey, McGrath, Baeza and a few > other cronies, the results were fairly predictable. What was not predictable > was the stupidity of the ethics chair himself. > > In his reply to Mr. Turvey (he lacked the integrity to reply to me at all) > he said "This person is not a member of ABP, so I cannot act on his > complaint." I can just imagine the usefulness of an organization like that. > It would in essence only protect members from other members, but not the > general public or in any way ensure that members conducted themselves in > accordance with their 'guild' like facade. > > Let me give you an example of how a true professional organization conducts > themselves. > > About four years ago, your icon and mentor, as well as 'inventor' of the > 'deductive profiling method' (see Bond University for details), filed an > ethics complaint against Barbara Corey-Boulet, Bob Keppel, Phd, and Richard > Walter, MS, as well as two agents from the FBI. He intended to file a > complaint against a well known and rather attractive profiler from Florida > as well, but he mistakenly identified her with the FBI agents she was > standing with and as usual, made some errors in his identification. > > The complaint was filed with the prestigious American Academy of Forensic > Science and was acted on accordingly. Ethics complaints are taken seriously > by them no matter who files them. At the time, Turvey was an > affiliant-applicant, not a member. They reviewed his complaint, found it was > without foundation and that closed the first part of his tawdry, vitriolic > attack on his betters. > > Of course the matter was not fully settled. As a member who was not yet > approved at a general membership meeting, Turvey's application was of course > subject to review. As you might expect, there were people who objected to > his application. One of them, who was at the time an Assistant US Attorney > in Virginia, Ken Melton (sp?) conducted an investigation into his claims and > background. > > At this point, only two weeks before the general membership meeting in Reno, > Nevada, Mr. Turvey withdrew his application and two months later announced > the formation of ABP. I guess if you can't meet the standards of others it's > just a lot easier to form your own organization. How much significance it > means has a lot to do with how well your members conduct themselves. > > Either you enforce your ethics or you do not. Based on Dr. McGrath's > statements, I am convinced that the ethics only apply when another member > complains which does no service for the public and offers them no > protection. > > Cheers, > > Shaun > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lynn " > To: "shaun wheeler" > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:41 PM > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > Then how about "qualifying" yourself as a so-called profiler? Still > > side-stepping the answer, eh? > > > > ** The only specialized skills required to challenge it are the ability to > > boil > > water (this may be a problem for you, but for most people it will come > > rather easily) and freeze it while using some type of thermometer. A > > dictionary might be useful for you as well in attempting this experiment > at > > home. CAUTION: The boiling water can cause severe burns so don't try this > > without your parents being present!** > > > > Nice try! Methinks you may have been standing a little too close to the > > boiling water at some time! Or some other more toxic substance! > > > > Bye, sweetie! > > > > Lynn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "lynn " > > > To: "shaun wheeler" > > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:34 PM > > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, but there is where we differ! We CAN imagine life without you > and > > > your > > > > so-called opinions! > > > > > > > > Lynn > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: shaun wheeler > > > > To: Smith, Stephanie L ; Mike ; > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:26 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephanie and List: > > > > > > > > > > I truly appreciate your dispassionate fact filled reply. For a > moment > > > > there > > > > > I thought somebody would actually dispute the facts that I offered, > as > > > > > opposed to the reference somebody else offered. > > > > > > > > > > If it helps, I really enjoy Brent's antics. I can't imagine life > > without > > > > > people like him. It would take all the fun out of it. > > > > > > > > > > Shaun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Smith, Stephanie L" > > > > > To: "'shaun wheeler'" ; "Mike" > > > > > ; > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:41 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shaun, > > > > > > > > > > > > All of your other hatred of Brent aside. . . I must say, he > actually > > > > > > corrected the Fox news correspondent who called him Dr. Turvey. > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephanie Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:02 PM > > > > > > To: Mike; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > > > > > > Subject: Re: Who is Brent Turvey???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From daemon Fri Oct 25 09:49:43 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PDnhh25288 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PDngi25282 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SkipnCar@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.ba.2e6150a8 (4116) for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:49:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:49:41 EDT Subject: Brent Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 180 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 495 I do not know Brent Turvey except through this list. Must we be subjected to the flaying of his character again? Please, do it off list to save the eyes and mailboxes of most of us. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Chair, Board of Trustees Forensic Science Foundation Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067-3403 954-796-8063 fax 954-796-8063 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 25 11:20:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PFKXm27962 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.106]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PFKXi27956 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cfwhiteh@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id y.17c.10cd24f1 (4320) for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:20:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Cfwhiteh@aol.com Message-ID: <17c.10cd24f1.2aeabb33@aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:20:19 EDT Subject: Many things, How Many tests? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10516 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 986 List Aside from the woes of Turvey and Shaun can maybe someone help me. I was just wondering. If we have many things received and we suspect them to be all the same thing, how many do we have to test? Why? What literature is available that addresses this? Cites? For instance, a field of marijuana. Collected. Sampled for the lab by law enforcement personnel at the scene. The bulk maintained in an evidence vault until trial. How many samples would we analyze from the field? Why? While stationed in Northern California with the FBI I saw large fields of marijuana seized. Many times the marijuana was among other plants. If we were to gather up the evidence and weigh it, how would we argue that that evidence did not contain plant material other than marijuana? Giving us a higher than actual weight. Fred Whitehurst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 25 11:43:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PFh5R28488 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from h3-exch3.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us (h3-exch3.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us [207.49.100.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PFh3i28482 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by h3-exch3.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:43:04 -0400 Message-ID: <9C85574EF79B8C4CBB23680D189AD8A6C66667@h3-exch2.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us> From: "Aldridge, Michael" To: "'Cfwhiteh@aol.com'" Cc: "Forensic List E-Mail (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Many things, How Many tests? Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:42:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2449 This question was asked about 3 months ago and we dissolved into a discussion of statistics and white vs black rocks. I contacted several labs in various states , local and state also federal labs. The best supported and most verified that I saw was the DEA 95% confidence level process in the Journal of For Sci (and they use this ). The most common response which I got was sampling based on the square root of the population of similar submissions. DEA personnel said that there was no mathematical basis for this. The courts in this state have set a very reasonable threshold to meet in relation to the "analysis expressing the whole". The second most common response was that their testing satisfied their courts. I received no response from SWIGDRUG. The quality managers e-mail lists was no different than my phone calls. I have had to move on the other admin issues but this is still percolating and the best solution that I know of is JFSCA vol 36 No 2 March 1991 ( the folder is still in my todo box). It would affect productivity (we receive far more cases with sample population below 100 than above) but it would have as basis in science/statistics. Perhaps we should lead rather than practice at a level acceptable minimally acceptable to our customers? -----Original Message----- From: Cfwhiteh@aol.com [mailto:Cfwhiteh@aol.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:20 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Many things, How Many tests? List Aside from the woes of Turvey and Shaun can maybe someone help me. I was just wondering. If we have many things received and we suspect them to be all the same thing, how many do we have to test? Why? What literature is available that addresses this? Cites? For instance, a field of marijuana. Collected. Sampled for the lab by law enforcement personnel at the scene. The bulk maintained in an evidence vault until trial. How many samples would we analyze from the field? Why? While stationed in Northern California with the FBI I saw large fields of marijuana seized. Many times the marijuana was among other plants. If we were to gather up the evidence and weigh it, how would we argue that that evidence did not contain plant material other than marijuana? Giving us a higher than actual weight. Fred Whitehurst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 25 12:27:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PGRs229686 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from surfer.sbm.temple.edu (surfer.sbm.temple.edu [155.247.185.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PGRri29680 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (alan@localhost) by surfer.sbm.temple.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9PGS8G6904235; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:28:08 -0400 From: Alan Izenman To: cc: , Alan Izenman Subject: Re: Many things, How Many tests? In-Reply-To: <17c.10cd24f1.2aeabb33@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1478 Dear Mr Whitehurst, You should get hold of my article entitled "Statistical and Legal Aspects of the Forensic Study of Illicit Drugs," published in Statistical Science, 2001, Vol. 16, No. 1, pp. 35-57. I think it will be helpful for your questions. You can also look at the references listed in my paper. Alan J. Izenman Professor of Statistics Department of Statistics Temple University Philadelphia, PA 19122 On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 Cfwhiteh@aol.com wrote: > List > Aside from the woes of Turvey and Shaun can maybe someone help me. I > was just wondering. If we have many things received and we suspect them to > be all the same thing, how many do we have to test? Why? What literature is > available that addresses this? Cites? > > For instance, a field of marijuana. Collected. Sampled for the lab > by law enforcement personnel at the scene. The bulk maintained in an > evidence vault until trial. How many samples would we analyze from the > field? Why? While stationed in Northern California with the FBI I saw large > fields of marijuana seized. Many times the marijuana was among other plants. > If we were to gather up the evidence and weigh it, how would we argue that > that evidence did not contain plant material other than marijuana? Giving us > a higher than actual weight. > > Fred Whitehurst > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > From daemon Fri Oct 25 13:03:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PH30R00590 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PH30i00584 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cfwhiteh@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id w.12d.1999373f (25711); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:02:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Cfwhiteh@aol.com Message-ID: <12d.1999373f.2aead340@aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:02:56 EDT Subject: Re: Many things, How Many tests? To: maldridge@cmpd.org CC: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2049 In a message dated 10/25/2002 11:44:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, maldridge@cmpd.org writes: > > I have had to move on the other admin issues but this is still percolating > and the best solution that I know of is JFSCA vol 36 No 2 March 1991 ( the > folder is still in my todo box). It would affect productivity (we receive > far more cases with sample population below 100 than above) but it would > have as basis in science/statistics. Perhaps we should lead rather than > practice at a level acceptable minimally acceptable to our customers? > > And I must humbly ask if anyone out there would be kind enough to send me a copy of JFSCA vol 36 No2 March 1991. I would greatly appreciate it. As for our leading rather than practicing at a level acceptable to our customers, I wonder. As I walked out of a county court room recently here in this far off place and walked down the hall I passed a line of defendants which started at defense table just before the judge, went out into the hall, down the front steps of the courthouse and half way around the block, over 600 defendants. All on a Monday morning, all due to receive justice in about six hours of court. One judge, one courtroom. I think that the courts maybe at times must accept what they can get, knowing that there is no human way possible to push for more when defendants are standing in the rain waiting for their less than a minute before the court. Even if we can successfully argue in court as scientists, do our courts have time to listen? Are any of these issues that courts have the time to address? Unless judges and prosecutors argue for better science, who will? The defense attorney with 25 cases on the docket for any one day? I don't think so. These are issues that must be solved, as you suggest, before the legal system ever sees them. So does anyone out there have the journal article? Fred Whitehurst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 25 13:06:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PH67G00855 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PH67i00848 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cfwhiteh@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id x.132.161503b3 (25711); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:05:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Cfwhiteh@aol.com Message-ID: <132.161503b3.2aead3f3@aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:05:55 EDT Subject: Re: Many things, How Many tests? To: alan@surfer.sbm.temple.edu CC: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, alan@surfer.sbm.temple.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 953 In a message dated 10/25/2002 12:28:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@sbm.temple.edu writes: > > Dear Mr Whitehurst, > > You should get hold of my article entitled > "Statistical and Legal Aspects of the Forensic Study of Illicit Drugs," > published in Statistical Science, 2001, Vol. 16, No. 1, pp. 35-57. > I think it will be helpful for your questions. > You can also look at the references listed in my paper. > > Alan J. Izenman > Professor of Statistics > Department of Statistics > Temple University > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > I will ask for this article at our local library, a converted railway station just down from our one stop light here in town. Seriously, this will give me a chance to determine if their claim of "lending library" capabilities really works. Thank you for the lead. Fred Whitehurst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Fri Oct 25 13:25:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PHPEh01469 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from surfer.sbm.temple.edu (surfer.sbm.temple.edu [155.247.185.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PHPDi01463 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (alan@localhost) by surfer.sbm.temple.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9PHPTO5694007; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:25:29 -0400 From: Alan Izenman To: cc: , Alan Izenman Subject: Re: Many things, How Many tests? In-Reply-To: <132.161503b3.2aead3f3@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1090 Dear Mr Whitehurst, If you cannot get hold of my article, you should send me a postcard with your mailing address on it and I will send you a reprint. Alan J. Izenman On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 Cfwhiteh@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/25/2002 12:28:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > alan@sbm.temple.edu writes: > > > > > > Dear Mr Whitehurst, > > > > You should get hold of my article entitled > > "Statistical and Legal Aspects of the Forensic Study of Illicit Drugs," > > published in Statistical Science, 2001, Vol. 16, No. 1, pp. 35-57. > > I think it will be helpful for your questions. > > You can also look at the references listed in my paper. > > > > Alan J. Izenman > > Professor of Statistics > > Department of Statistics > > Temple University > > Philadelphia, PA 19122 > > > > > > I will ask for this article at our local library, a converted railway station > just down from our one stop light here in town. Seriously, this will give me > a chance to determine if their claim of "lending library" capabilities really > works. Thank you for the lead. > Fred Whitehurst > From daemon Fri Oct 25 13:35:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PHZuA01898 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PHZti01882 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g9PHZunp000028; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:35:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Oliver To: Basten cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 887 > > As most of you are aware, Mr. Wheeler continues [h]is fascination with my > professional and private life,... Everybody needs a hobby. Be thankful. At least you *have* a private life. > ... this individual lives in a trailer in > Arkansas, trying desperately to convince others that he is some kind of law > enforcement expert/ consultant with a salary range in the high figures. What > he is is a telephone operator. He has lured at least one unsuspecting, and > ultimately suprised, female out to his trailer under this pretense, and I > understand that there are more. Has anyone else noticed that everybody else seems to be living a more dramatic life than they? Or is it just me? And why is it these guys living from the woods in Arkansas are always the ones who get the chicks, anyway? I mean, from the Governor's Mansion on down. Is it something in the water? billo From daemon Fri Oct 25 14:30:39 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PIUdh03765 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PIUci03759 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.128.154]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20021025183039.UAHM20156.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net>; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:30:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3DB98E75.B65C67DC@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:33:55 -0400 From: "E. J. Wagner" Reply-To: EJWagner@worldnet.att.net Organization: Crime Historian / Storyteller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Forens Subject: Friday Follies Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1351 Dear List; I realize how riveting the Brent and Shaun show is, and I realize how relevent the private living arrangemtnts of those two chaps are to the forensic sciences. Still, I ask you to contemplate another matter for a moment. The DC sniper appears to be caught-thus freeing us from fear of sudden death, and from endless phone calls from reporters and TV interviews that sound like the following: : Anchor: And now, Shlox Netowrk brings you the Sniper Showdown. With us tonight is the nationally known forensic dermatologist and prize winning author of 'Dandruff, Death and DNA'Dr Frank Feckless. Dr Feckless, from the evidence, what conclusions do you draw about the Sniper?" Dr. Feckless: Well, judging from the ballistic evidence, which the police have not shared,I would say he most likely has anti-social tendencies. Anchor: Fascinating, Doctor. Can you tell us anything more? Feckless: He's angry, Anchor : Does he want to be caught? Feckless: This is purely speculative, but I don't think so. Anchor Thank you, Doctor. Stay tuned-up next, a nationally known penmanship teacher will analyze the Snipers handwriting..... We at forens should be grateful. Its over, Until the next time. EJ -- E. J.. Wagner's web site is at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ (also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) From daemon Fri Oct 25 15:51:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PJpRY05369 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PJpQi05361 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g9PJpRnp018467; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:51:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Oliver To: Basten cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 186 On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Bill Oliver wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that everybody else seems to be living a > more dramatic life than they? should read "more dramatic life than we?" From daemon Fri Oct 25 19:55:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9PNtL608868 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.101]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9PNtLi08857 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WBirkby@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id o.15c.15f407ae (3890); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:55:17 -0400 (EDT) From: WBirkby@aol.com Message-ID: <15c.15f407ae.2aeb33e5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:55:17 EDT Subject: Re: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com To: billo@Radix.Net, cbasten@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu CC: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 179 Billo: Doesn't say much for the "chicks" does it!! Keep those pithy comments coming, Bill. Makes MY life more fun. As ever, Walt Birkby Forensic Anthropologist Tucson, AZ. From daemon Fri Oct 25 20:08:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9Q08FN09262 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe64.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.199]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9Q08Ei09256 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:08:15 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: <001b01c27bcf$09c5cd40$95293eca@max> <003201c27be0$c64b2760$91293eca@max> <008e01c27c60$8f00e3a0$0100007f@lynn> Subject: Re: Brent, Ad Nauseum Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:08:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2002 00:08:15.0751 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7FB9970:01C27C83] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6059 Lynn and List (again): "I find it extremely laughable that you refer to Brent's actions as **his tawdry, vitriolic attack on his betters.** Sounds like you could be talking about yourself, Shaun." You are right. Any man, who has had Brent's success defrauding families of suicide victims for months at a time deserves the respect and admiration of all who know him. How could I have been so selfish? "And as for **Let me give you an example of how a true professional organization conducts themselves.** How would you know, you won't even tell me what qualifications you have!" I was unaware I was being offered a job. Tell me what it is I need to be qualified for and I'm absolutely positive there is some outfit on the internet that will sell me some online courses or perhaps a 'certification' that would help me gain more widespread acceptance. Do you suppose "Knowledge Solutions" could boost my credibility in your eyes? Or would it take a legitimate place to do that? Help us out here, Lynn, are you currently taking courses at either Bond University or perhaps from Knowledge Solutions? I note in your cross-posted emails you are on the listserve (to which my replies did not process directly) for ABP. It's my understanding that membership on that listserve is open only to ABP members. Are you an ABP member or applicant? " Let alone what "professional organizations" you belong to." I'm a professional waste water treatment worker. I also moonlight as a forensic proctologist. The work stinks but it's pretty steady (for both jobs). "You keep dragging out the same old accusations all the time -" This is also incorrect. First, because it is not an accusation. I have checked my facts and corroborated them for good measure. You, on the other hand, refuse to challenge those facts directly. Instead, you complain that the clothes the messenger was wearing weren't suitable. Second, these are not accusations. Mr. Turvey does in fact live where I said he did, lives with who I said he does, who is related the way I said she is. I note that you do not dispute this directly. Is it because you are afraid to ask him if it is true? Or is it because you know he will not let you post that question to his ABP listserve? You do not need to be a professional or even a member of AAFS to lodge an ethics complaint against a member. The organization does not exist to protect it's members but rather, it exists to protect the public and bring credit on it's members by codifying their ethics and more importantly, enforcing them. They establish professional standards and guidelines, educate their members and advance forensic science as a whole and drag the criminal justice system screaming and kicking with it as an added bonus. Allow me to pose a question that you cannot answer and in so doing will remove any doubt there is left what a charade ABP is: Do you believe that 'professional' organizations should only protect members of that organization from other members? a. Yes b. No. If you selected answer "b", do you believe that a professional organization should help accept and address ethics complaints against members from the general public as well? a. Yes b. No. I'll presume in advance that you will not answer those questions which really don't require you to be a member or 'qualified' in anything. I know when I hire somebody who belongs to AAFS what ethics they are supposed to subscribe to. I know when I hire somebody who is a member of our area Realtors Association what ethics they subscribe to. Either or both of these will accept ethics complaints. Turvey was not a member of the Washington State Bar Association, yet they accepted an ethics complaint by him against Barbara Corey-Boulet. Really though, you will not, cannot answer either of those questions. If an organization, like the one you appear to be a member of, has no intentions of enforcing their ethics or acting on complaints, then there really is no significance to joining them. I think you are in a bit over your head. If it helps, it was pointed out to me that I should be more specific in what I say to you. That said, in my example of a 'fact' earlier, where I used the word 'water' I should have been specific to H20 without any sodium, petroleum products, single malt scotch, dissolved solids, benzene or anything else, all of which will effect the boiling and freezing temperatures. I suppose I could write another four or five pages on the accuracy of the instrument to measure the temperature, how to trace NIST and such, but I think it would easily exceed the scope of what generally is accepted as the freezing point of water...er, pure h20........ " let me know when you come up with something interesting, I don't do this for a living! Though you probably already know that" I think it's pretty interesting when somebody challenges an entire group of people with the "Road to Professionalization", which is on Brent's website, then leaves his wife of six years to move in with the daughter of a client and sister of a murder victim he has been retained to re-investigate, despite his lack of training as an investigator. It saddens me that you do not find that as interesting as I do. For a moment I thought you were, like I am, concerned about people grossly overstating their commitment to ethics or to their 'profession'. Here's a hint: I have never tried to offer testimony in court as a profiler, nor have I testified about mode of death as a 'forensic scientist' or 'criminal, profiler', all of which your icon and mentor has tried to do. But I promise you if I ever do try to get my 'opinion' into court, the very last thing I'd do us use ABP as a reference. "Keep it up, I'm getting a good laugh out of all of this :)) But I must say it's getting more than a little boring." Not quite as much fun as watching an HBO made for tv movie, is it? "Have fun now, and keep using those brain cells, one day they might actually kick into action." Thanks, I worry about that constantly. Shaun From daemon Fri Oct 25 21:34:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9Q1Ymw10465 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe64.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.199]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9Q1Yli10449 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:34:48 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: "Basten" , References: Subject: Re: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:34:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2002 01:34:48.0352 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF03A200:01C27C8F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 9959 Brent and List: > List members; > > As most of you are aware, Mr. Wheeler continues is fascination with my > professional and private life, and continues to invent and distort facts to > harass me and those close to me." Either they are facts, or they are not facts. You do not dispute them directly, you only deflect. What I wrote is not subjective at all. The citations are also included, particularly your accusations against Bill Hagmaier and the FBI. Your status, with respect to Melissa Baggen, her father George Baggen, the homicide of his daughter and Melissa's sibling, Jessica Baggen, are also not speculation. They are documented facts. They are documented in files at the Alaska State Troopers CID office. You have also publically stated facts from this case as well, none of which has to do with any other case. You lodged serious accusations against the entire Sitka Police Department, which were shown to be without foundation by investigators from the Alaska State Troopers. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you take a moment to speak with Trooper Lantze Dahlke or his partner, both of whom I am certain I can rely on for depositions in the unlikely event you find an attorney to take your case. Your antics in Alaska came to my attention when you testified in the Alex Dale Thomas case, where you tried to get a capital murderer a little sweeter deal by testifying in areas you are not qualified in. Sexual assault, mode of death, things like that, things you do with alarming regularity. Brent, you have called me a liar, a homosexual and a wealth of other things. The difference between you and I here is that I'll say what I have to say about you to you and publically. What you have to say about me, you say privately. Whether that's objectionable to you or not really is of no concern to me. Your hatchet job in Sitka on my name and reputation is more than enough to countersue if that's what you'd like. The bad part is even privately, you left an audit trail. You tried to have me fired, but you didn't even have the courage to do that yourself. Instead, you had your friend and partner, Eoghan Casey write the letter because you lack the integrity to write it yourself. But you are part of a corporation, so really it doesn't make much difference in terms of assigning legal responsibility since his actions were as a member and officer of "Knowledge Solutions, Inc." Address the questions, Brent. Many of them I've had for years, even when you weren't "involved in litigation". Either you can answer them, or you can't. If you sue, I can compel you to answer in deposition, and I will. If you refuse, we will move for either contempt or dismissal. That's how civil suits for libel work. I've covered all this with you before, so do be a pal and read what I wrote you before. Funny how I at least have the courtesy to email you a copy of what I have to say to you, but you lack the courtesy to do the same for me. > This because of my involvement in the > highly publicized West Memphis case, and my criticisms of the West Memphis > PD. See: www.wm3.org Actually no. Your blatant self-promotion in that case only piqued my interest. When legitimate profilers like Richard Walter, Phoebe Kelsoe and others started corresponding with me, I figured there had to be more where that came from. Digging into what you do is a lot like digging in a cow pasture. Brent, I have to tell you, other than paranoid schizophrenics, it isn't often that I find somebody like you saying they believe the 'FBI is out to get me', but right there on your website in front of God and everybody that's exactly what you said. I figured that was probably posturing. When I read it in the deposition that Pierce County was so gracious as to supply me with, well there really was no doubt at that point. You have some problems Brent. Do you always believe the "FBI is out to get" somebody just because they disagree with them? Don't get me wrong, I know they've had their moments but damn, Hoover's been dead for a while, you know? > As I am currently involved in litigation that involves Mr. Wheeler, I cannot > comment further, except to say that 1) this individual does nothing all day, > everyday, except think about me and Brent, you used the same line last time. What was that, two years ago? You couldn't comment for two years? On a more practical note, I didn't have time today to think about you "all day" today. I was pretty busy because one of my peers was gone and my workload effectively doubles. Yesterday was pretty quiet, but I was working on some much delayed followup on some fairly technical stuff that really wouldn't interest you much, owing to your celebrity status as a 'doctor' and 'forensic scientist'. >2) this individual lives in a trailer in Arkansas, trying desperately to convince others that he is some kind of law > enforcement expert/ consultant with a salary range in the high figures. Yes, Brent, every word of that is true. I live in a trailer in Arkansas only a half mile behind the levee, with twenty hogs and a smattering of chickens (I like fresh eggs in the morning). I barely cleared 16 grand last year. All things considered, it's a pretty brilliant strategy, suing somebody that poor. I can see why people assign such brilliance to you and have a morbid fear of your army of lawyers. If it isn't too much to ask, how about answering a question that would have nothing to do with your "pending litigation"? When Lantze Dahlke called you up concerning your allegations against Sitka PD, why did you refuse to talk to him? As you may recall, he is an investigator in the CID group at the Alaska State Patrol. Did you not trust him? As I recall, your reply was to send him to your attorney. Your words, according to Sitka Police Chief Bob Gorder were, "I cannot discuss this due to pending litigation". I have a copy of his letter to that effect signed by Chief Gorder on letterhead that clearly identifies him and his agency if you'd care to dispute it. >What he is is a telephone operator. He has lured at least one unsuspecting, and ultimately suprised, female out to his trailer under this pretense, and I > understand that there are more. Well Brent, you have to understand that not all of us can line up a cushy deal, seducing our clients daughters and leaving our wives of many years. Besides, you have any objections to trailers? I mean, if you really want mine, come on down and you can have it. (at the risk of being premature, I hope that nobody could possibly mistake the sarcasm dripping from that comment and believe that I fully intend to give him my twenty-year old Fleetwood double wide with polyster curtains and the redwood deck) > > For those interested in knowing Mr. Wheeler's true nature, motives and > behavior, just take a look at his website where he harasses and maligns just > about anyone who disagrees with him, to the point of restraining orders in > some cases (he posts under the name Public Enemy Number One, among others, > often having straw man arguments with himself under different names): > > http://pub17.ezboard.com/bmurderincorporated > Brent, it's funny that you bring up strawmen and yes, that's a bulletin board that I moderate and you happen to read. Your lovely (how do you introduce Melissa anyways?)....whatever she is to you, posts there as well. It's a pity you won't post there and let us admire your profiling skill. I mean, using nothing other than your keen powers of profiling observation, you've not only figured out what kind of domicile I have, but who it is I bring to it and what their reactions are, not to mention their numbers. Why Brent, it's almost like my private life has some sort of prurient appeal to you. Isn't it fascinating that you have this level of interest in my private life, which for you is good, but my interest in where your professional life is clearly having problems dividing from your personal life (dare I say, your ethical lapses?) that is bad? You fascinate me, Brent. Really you do. I can't imagine a better study in people rationalizing anything they do, while condemning what other people do which they believe to be similar, if not identical. But to be sure, there are differences. I have never taken money from somebody to investigate a murder then seduced their daughter, alleged domestic violence against her former (and displaced) fiance, then moved into her house, on an island in Alaska. Brent, there is no way I could possibly follow an act like that. Bravo. > This is only for the uninitiated. I will not comment further on these issues > as it is my view that by criticizing / correcting Mr. Wheeler's numerous > fabrications and distortions, it would raise them to a level that they do > not deserve. > > Now I have cases to get back to, Brent, I'll post links to just a few of the letters that I think best exemplify the kind of person you are. They hail from your ill fated allegations of police corruption and obstruction in Alaska. I can't think of a finer way to let your 'work', speak for itself. In the future I hope that you'll simply address my statements directly. You could have tried to defend your allegations (that is what they are) against Bill Hagmaier. You might have tried to suggest that what Dr. Thomas Johnson told me, or what Dr. Lee Colwell told me, was false. But that would be easily checked and disproven at the next AAFS convention, so you didn't. Ligitation has nothing to do with it. No attorney in their right mind would bother to sue for a house trailer next to the levee in Arkansas. If you feel like paying for one, be my guest. If you want the one you think I own, you are welcome to it. But chances are pretty good that one of the two of us is sadly mistaken in estimating the other. And Brent? It is probably not me. Cheers, Shaun Wheeler Forensic Proctology, Forensic Wastewater Treatment, and accused 'telephone operator' From daemon Fri Oct 25 22:08:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9Q28i811065 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe58.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.193]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9Q28hi11048 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:08:44 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: "Bill Oliver" , "Basten" Cc: References: Subject: Re: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:08:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2002 02:08:44.0775 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CD11F70:01C27C94] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1092 Billo: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/arktriplewide000824.html Really, Billo, it's a way of life down here. If a triplewide is good enough for my Governor, it's good enough for me ;) I'm still checking on the water, er...h20. I'd tell you but owing to my current litigation and all..... Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Oliver" To: "Basten" Cc: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: Re: response from bturvey@corpus-delicti.com > > > > As most of you are aware, Mr. Wheeler continues [h]is fascination with my > > professional and private life,... > > Everybody needs a hobby. Be thankful. At least you *have* a private life. > > Has anyone else noticed that everybody else seems to be living a > more dramatic life than they? Or is it just me? And why is it > these guys living from the woods in Arkansas are always the ones who > get the chicks, anyway? I mean, from the Governor's Mansion on down. > Is it something in the water? > > > billo > From daemon Sat Oct 26 08:02:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9QC2Fd17043 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saruman (saruman.ncf.ca [134.117.136.37]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9QC2Ei17037 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x7b0k6 (p1usr2.std.dialup.ncf.carleton.ca [134.117.137.84]) by saruman.ncf.ca (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H4L00FNL83R5Q@saruman.ncf.ca> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:13:52 -0400 From: Marilyn Harris Subject: Re: Brent Turvey X-Sender: ah247@pop.ncf.carleton.ca To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.20021026121352.00baa53c@pop.ncf.carleton.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 735 Hi Carla; IMO, Shaun might be doing the forensic community a service in uncovering a potential fraud so I actually applaud him. Marilyn (a non-forensic person) At 09:49 AM 10/25/02 -0400, SkipnCar@aol.com wrote: >I do not know Brent Turvey except through this list. > >Must we be subjected to the flaying of his character again? Please, do it >off list to save the eyes and mailboxes of most of us. > > >Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS >Chair, Board of Trustees >Forensic Science Foundation >Forensic Scientist >8513 Northwest 47 Street >Coral Springs, FL 33067-3403 >954-796-8063 >fax 954-796-8063 > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > From daemon Sat Oct 26 11:13:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9QFDxE19049 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9QFDwi19043 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.130.143]) by mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20021026151348.SQCD12639.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net>; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:13:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3DBAB1D2.ED744B11@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:16:55 -0400 From: "E. J. Wagner" Reply-To: EJWagner@worldnet.att.net Organization: Crime Historian / Storyteller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marilyn Harris CC: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Fairness and Forensics (was Brent Turvey) References: <1.5.4.32.20021026121352.00baa53c@pop.ncf.carleton.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1528 Marilyn Harris wrote: > > Hi Carla; > > IMO, Shaun might be doing the forensic community a service in uncovering a > potential fraud so I actually applaud him. > > Marilyn (a non-forensic person) > > At 09:49 AM 10/25/02 -0400, SkipnCar@aol.com wrote: > >I do not know Brent Turvey except through this list. > > > >Must we be subjected to the flaying of his character again? Please, do it > >off list to save the eyes and mailboxes of most of us. > > > > > >Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > >Chair, Board of Trustees > >Forensic Science Foundation > >Forensic Scientist > >8513 Northwest 47 Street > >Coral Springs, FL 33067-3403 > >954-796-8063 > >fax 954-796-8063 > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > >--- > > One does not have to be a "forensic person" to accept basic standards of fairness and logic. Accusations are not, by themselves, proof of anything.. Mere claims, no matter how often repeated, that accusations are "substantiated" are not proof. Living in a trailer, with or without attendant chickens, is not relevant to one's credentials. Neither is living with a client's daughter. None of this has anything to do with an exchange of ideas on forensic science, which is the purpose of this list. I have never met either Brent or Shaun. I agree with Carla. EJWagner . -- E. J.. Wagner's web site is at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ (also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) From daemon Sat Oct 26 11:44:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9QFiTO19555 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9QFiSi19548 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216-164-48-82.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com ([216.164.48.82] helo=BART.starpower.net) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 185T6w-0005PF-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:44:26 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20021026114051.0156c200@pop.rcn.com> X-Sender: johnfrench@pop.rcn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:44:40 -0400 To: EJWagner@worldnet.att.net, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: John French Subject: Re: Fairness and Forensics (was Brent Turvey) In-Reply-To: <3DBAB1D2.ED744B11@worldnet.att.net> References: <1.5.4.32.20021026121352.00baa53c@pop.ncf.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1822 I agree as well. There are plenty of forums to address grievances like those being expressed. Both guys could heed how they catch monkeys in southeast Asia, and learn from it. peace, John French At 11:16 AM 10/26/2002, you wrote: >Marilyn Harris wrote: >> >> Hi Carla; >> >> IMO, Shaun might be doing the forensic community a service in uncovering a >> potential fraud so I actually applaud him. >> >> Marilyn (a non-forensic person) >> >> At 09:49 AM 10/25/02 -0400, SkipnCar@aol.com wrote: >> >I do not know Brent Turvey except through this list. >> > >> >Must we be subjected to the flaying of his character again? Please, do it >> >off list to save the eyes and mailboxes of most of us. >> > >> > >> >Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS >> >Chair, Board of Trustees >> >Forensic Science Foundation >> >Forensic Scientist >> >8513 Northwest 47 Street >> >Coral Springs, FL 33067-3403 >> >954-796-8063 >> >fax 954-796-8063 >> > >> > >> >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> >multipart/alternative >> > text/plain (text body -- kept) >> > text/html >> >--- >> > > >One does not have to be a "forensic person" to accept basic standards of >fairness and logic. > >Accusations are not, by themselves, proof of anything.. Mere claims, no >matter how often repeated, that accusations are "substantiated" are not proof. > >Living in a trailer, with or without attendant chickens, is not relevant >to one's credentials. > > Neither is living with a client's daughter. > >None of this has anything to do with an exchange of ideas on forensic >science, which is the purpose of this list. > > > >I have never met either Brent or Shaun. >I agree with Carla. > >EJWagner > >. > >-- >E. J.. Wagner's web site is at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ >(also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) From daemon Sat Oct 26 14:36:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9QIaNk21517 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9QIaMi21511 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g9QIaDnp012743; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:36:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Oliver To: "E. J. Wagner" cc: Marilyn Harris , Subject: Seeking the camera (Was Fairness... Was Brent...) In-Reply-To: <3DBAB1D2.ED744B11@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3727 > > None of this has anything to do with an exchange of ideas on forensic > science, which is the purpose of this list. Though there is one issue in all of this, ignoring the underlying accusations of credentials, basic science, living quarters, and sexual proclivities that is important to us as forensic professionals. It is one that all of us have had to deal with. How should we as forensic professionals interact with the media, and what about the practice of leveraging one's forensic credentials into becoming a talking head for the yellow journalists. In general, I avoid the press wherever possible, and deal with them on a purely factual basis when I cannot -- with the exception of a couple of post 9/11 things for the Armed Forces. There seems to be a subset of us, however, who seem profoundly fond of their 15 minutes of fame, and the bucks associated with playing consultant to the media. I see a significant danger in some of this. The first is that by representing themselves as expert peers, such folk end up representing the entire discipline to the lay public. The second is that the very nature of the interviews and the seduction of fame seems to make folk end up saying and doing things that eventually damages their credibility in general. The classic example of this in my field is the Forensic Pathologist who managed to end up on the Alien Autopsy video. I'm not talking about the run-of-the-mill dealing with the press that many of us do. Everybody ends up in front of the camera for the occasional high-profile case, and dealing with the press as a part of the job is part and parcel of being a forensic professional.. I'm talking about the folk who seek out the camera. We all get the opportunity to opine on camera about cases we are not actually involved with, and such media actions are not part of the every day work of being a professional forensic scientist. There are a three or four patterns I've seen in the past few years. The first is the "grand old man" pattern where a retired or semi-retired professional ends up going around the country getting in front of cameras. The second are the issue folk who get in front of the camera because they are on a mission from God. The third are the basic publicity hounds who seem to be junkies for high profile cases and hamming it up for the camera. Of these, the habit of seeking the camera seems to have the long term effect of degrading one's professional credibility, certainly in the first and last patterns. In large part this is because such folk are almost by necessity opining about cases without knowing what is actually going on in the case. Thus, in the sniper case, we had folk opining about poor interagency cooperation without a clue about what cooperation was going on. We had folk opining about the "facts" of the case without a clue about what those facts were. It seems, almost as a practical matter, that it would be impossible to opine in such a way for the camera *without* damaging one's credibility -- one damage's ones credibilty by opining in error, and it is a commentary on the judgement on the speaker that he or she is willing to come to such conclusions based on incomplete data in the first place. There is a place, I suppose, for speakers to explain the forensic science to the public. But it seems that few people seem willing to stop at that -- inevitably, the speakers move on to critiquing and opining about cases about which they are largely ignorant. With rare exception, most of the people I truly admire and most of the more exemplary professional folk I know tend to avoid the camera rather than seek it. Is the experience of the rest of the people on the list similar? billo From daemon Sat Oct 26 15:22:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9QJMe822154 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe45.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.17]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9QJMdi22148 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 12:22:41 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] From: "shaun wheeler" To: "Bill Oliver" , "E. J. Wagner" Cc: "Marilyn Harris" , References: Subject: Re: Seeking the camera (Was Fairness... Was Brent...) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:23:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2002 19:22:41.0591 (UTC) FILETIME=[0DA40470:01C27D25] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1134 Billo: Your point is well taken with respect to dealing with media in general. One of the things that I had speculated about, which later bore out to be true, was whether or not some people appeared in the public eye more than others, not because they were factually qualified, or because the media bothered to check them out, but because they were willing to go on camera. In three different instances during this year I found that two of my close friends (yes, I can hear the shock and surprise) were asked to either respond to questions regarding open investigators or appear on television. Each of them declined because they could not look at the things police had access to. Their responses were I believe, ethical and appropriate. They missed the opportunity to self-aggrandize and attack other agencies making difficult decisions, as certainly Chief Moose has had to. But all told, I think they made an ethical decision and one that only brings credit to them though not the fame. I"m just waiting for somebody's 15 minutes to be up so somebody else can get up there and entertain me while assaulting somebody else. Shaun From daemon Sun Oct 27 01:42:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9R5gZn28643 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.jobe.net (www.jobe.net [208.18.94.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9R5gYi28637 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dwhause [208.34.191.195] by mail.jobe.net (SMTPD32-7.06) id ACC9BFB00108; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 00:42:33 -0500 Message-ID: <064e01c27d7b$d6df4100$28bf22d0@dwhause> From: "Dave Hause" To: References: <1ac.a78ddc4.2ae0d8b1@aol.com> Subject: Re: Death Investigation Question Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 00:43:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2110 Sorry I'm late, been out of town. I've been involved in one case were death was due to embalming - the nascent dead guy was a dialysis patient and the machine had been filled with 37% formaldehyde the previous night, unmarked. When he was hooked up and started, he gasped and arrested. Of course, the clinical history was limited to "Cardiac arrest during dialysis." The ONLY abnormal finding was a strong formalin smell from the body cavity (and beautiful histology.) Most jurisdictions I've heard about, one doesn't come "under the care" of the county coroner until having achieved the status of "dead." Dave Hause, dwhause@jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: Death Investigation Question Gentlemen and Ladies, I am working on the following case and have the following questions: A 45 y/o man was in the care of a County Coroner, who happened to be the owner/operator of a local Funeral Home. As per county requirements, the deceased body was sent to be embalmed, prior to an autopsy. As a small jurisdiction our local hospital does not have a refrigeration unit available, and the Coroner's Office does not have one either - they work out of the hospital basement. We believe that the Funeral Director (Coroner), had embalmed the deceased body alive, as a method of homicide. Then placed the body in in a dumpster and paid a homeless person to call 9-11, and report a body (then flee the scene - with no way to track him). My questions are as follows: (1) Can a person subdued, by mechanical means (i.e. duct tape, rope or other) be embalmed while still alive, and what are the results of such. (2) During autopsy, is it possible to determine if a person died from being embalmed, and if so what signs would be present at Autopsy. (3) What is the chemical composition of Embalming fluid. Thank you for your help. R. Homewood Acting Coroner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From daemon Mon Oct 28 07:42:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SCg9R20284 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SCg7i20278 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8B940BE2 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:09:33 +0530 (IST) Received: from ([203.200.121.141]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:09:35 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3DBD2E84.DD90CB37@vsnl.net> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:03:09 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: About BZ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1674 Dear List, Can somebody tell me what exactly is the chemical composition of the gas BZ, and why is it called BZ. I only know that the US used BZ during Vietnam war. Also during the recently washout of chechen rebels from a Russian theatre, the Russian army used BZ. Any information would be highly appreciated. Thanks Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Mon Oct 28 08:03:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SD3vM20757 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.urdirect.net (alpha.urdirect.net [216.136.28.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SD3ui20751 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sany60q25j39h5 (pm3a-48.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.127]) by alpha.urdirect.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id HAA29945; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:03:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha.urdirect.net: Host pm3a-48.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.127] claimed to be sany60q25j39h5 Message-ID: <015901c27e82$7bd1a3e0$7f1c88d8@sany60q25j39h5> Reply-To: "Mike Wise" From: "Mike Wise" To: , "Forensic Newsgroup \(main\)" References: <3DBD2E84.DD90CB37@vsnl.net> Subject: Re: About BZ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:03:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2407 It is apparently the same stuff the Serbs were reported to be using in Kosovo a few years back. It is made out of glycolates and is somewhat like atropine. It works as a psychotomimetic agent and causes things like loss of feeling, paralysis, hallucinations, deteriorated short distance vision, dry mouth and heart palpitations. You also get elevated body temps from it. I think it is called BZ because part of its composition is "benzilate". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:33 AM Subject: About BZ > Dear List, > Can somebody tell me what exactly is the chemical composition of the gas > BZ, and why is it called BZ. I only know that the US used BZ during > Vietnam war. Also during the recently washout of chechen rebels from a > Russian theatre, the Russian army used BZ. > Any information would be highly appreciated. Thanks > Sincerely > Professor Anil Aggrawal > Professor of Forensic Medicine > Maulana Azad Medical College > S-299 Greater Kailash-1 > New Delhi-110048 > INDIA > Phone: 6465460, 6413101 > Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com > Page me via ICQ #19727771 > Websites: > > 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals > http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html > 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology > http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html > 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia > http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html > 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page > http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html > 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page > http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 > 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews > http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html > 7. Forensic Careers > http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html > > *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I > tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being > called when the top doctors have failed!* > `\|||/ > (@@) > ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ > _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| > ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ > _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ > > > > > From daemon Mon Oct 28 09:06:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SE6S822176 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tulsaconnect.com (mail.tulsaconnect.com [65.38.1.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SE6Ri22170 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.135.239.61] (HELO price) by mail.tulsaconnect.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0) with SMTP id 6119189 for Forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:06:33 -0600 Message-ID: <001b01c27e8b$018dcf60$0100a8c0@price.webzone.net> Reply-To: "J. T. Price" From: "J. T. Price" To: Subject: Re: About BZ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:04:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2189 I keep hearing about BZ use in VN. I was there as a Chemical Officer in the early parts and sincerely doubt if it was ever used. Because of the time of its appearance as consideration as a chemical agent I think we can probably assume it is an ergot alkaloid although I'm not sure it has been publically released. JTP -----Original Message----- From: Professor Anil Aggrawal To: Forensic Newsgroup (main) Date: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:44 AM Subject: About BZ Dear List, Can somebody tell me what exactly is the chemical composition of the gas BZ, and why is it called BZ. I only know that the US used BZ during Vietnam war. Also during the recently washout of chechen rebels from a Russian theatre, the Russian army used BZ. Any information would be highly appreciated. Thanks Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html 2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 7. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Mon Oct 28 09:10:56 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SEAuN22660 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SEAtN22654 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:10:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:10:55 -0500 (EST) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Brent Turvey" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5640 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:21:31 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Brent Turvey" ] >From forens-owner Sat Oct 26 13:21:30 2002 Received: from lsh110.siteprotect.com (lsh110.siteprotect.com [66.113.130.251]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9QHLUi20681 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gross (ACC3C933.ipt.aol.com [172.195.201.51]) by lsh110.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08246; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 12:21:30 -0500 Message-ID: <00af01c27d13$ebdcc540$33c9c3ac@gross> From: "Brent Turvey" To: Cc: References: <1.5.4.32.20021026121352.00baa53c@pop.ncf.carleton.ca> <5.1.1.6.2.20021026114051.0156c200@pop.rcn.com> Subject: Re: Fairness and Forensics (was Brent Turvey) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:19:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" List Members; Just a clarification - that Mr. Wheeler lives in a small trailer in a rural area of the country was a piece of information provided to show his lack of assets. This lack of assets has to do with the fact that 1) it is fruitless to persue a lawsuit against him (a law suit which would be extremely expensive) & 2) that when he makes claims of being a high salaried consultant they simply are not true - this for the benefit of female members on this list that he may be persuing. He has lured more than one very intelligent professional woman out to his trailor that I know of, and if this does not get said there may be others. Having said that I am currently involved in litigation against parties who have provided Mr. Wheeler with false and defamatory information, and that may take a awhile to resolve. So Mr. Wheeler's allegations are being responded to, but not in the way, I'm sure, that makes him happy. The mor eunhappy he gets, the more crap he will post. The irony is that I have been criticized for not responding to this guy very heavily, often by those who have blindly accepted anything that he says without questioning him as a source. Most are embarassed when they learn of his past conduct, and see the harm he has caused countless others with his vitriole. I can promise that I will not post further on these issues (as I have refrained from doing in the past years despite Mr. Wheeler's attempts to raw me out again and again with flase and defamtory statements, as well as personal attacks against those close to me). So I am acting on these matters where it is appropriate. It will be a slow, painful process. But unfortunately necessary in a professional community that is so quick to believe rumor, innuendo, and outright lies because of its partiality (law enforcement v. defense). Sad commentary. In any case, if Mr. Wheeler is so convinced that I have said something false about him inreference to his fraud and misrepresenattion of credentials to others for various kinds of personal gain, then he should take legal action against me. But that won't be happening any time soon. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "John French" To: ; Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Fairness and Forensics (was Brent Turvey) > I agree as well. > > There are plenty of forums to address grievances like those being expressed. Both guys could heed how they catch monkeys in southeast Asia, and learn from it. > > peace, > John French > > At 11:16 AM 10/26/2002, you wrote: > > > >Marilyn Harris wrote: > >> > >> Hi Carla; > >> > >> IMO, Shaun might be doing the forensic community a service in uncovering a > >> potential fraud so I actually applaud him. > >> > >> Marilyn (a non-forensic person) > >> > >> At 09:49 AM 10/25/02 -0400, SkipnCar@aol.com wrote: > >> >I do not know Brent Turvey except through this list. > >> > > >> >Must we be subjected to the flaying of his character again? Please, do it > >> >off list to save the eyes and mailboxes of most of us. > >> > > >> > > >> >Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > >> >Chair, Board of Trustees > >> >Forensic Science Foundation > >> >Forensic Scientist > >> >8513 Northwest 47 Street > >> >Coral Springs, FL 33067-3403 > >> >954-796-8063 > >> >fax 954-796-8063 > >> > > >> > > >> >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >> >multipart/alternative > >> > text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> > text/html > >> >--- > >> > > > > >One does not have to be a "forensic person" to accept basic standards of > >fairness and logic. > > > >Accusations are not, by themselves, proof of anything.. Mere claims, no > >matter how often repeated, that accusations are "substantiated" are not proof. > > > >Living in a trailer, with or without attendant chickens, is not relevant > >to one's credentials. > > > > Neither is living with a client's daughter. > > > >None of this has anything to do with an exchange of ideas on forensic > >science, which is the purpose of this list. > > > > > > > >I have never met either Brent or Shaun. > >I agree with Carla. > > > >EJWagner > > > >. > > > >-- > >E. J.. Wagner's web site is at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ > >(also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) > From daemon Mon Oct 28 17:04:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SM4aK04440 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SM4Zi04434 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.129.139]) by mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20021028220409.FYNO4213.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net>; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:04:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3DBDB510.E23EEC5@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:08:00 -0400 From: "E. J. Wagner" Reply-To: EJWagner@worldnet.att.net Organization: Crime Historian / Storyteller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Oliver CC: Marilyn Harris , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Seeking the camera (Was Fairness... Was Brent...) References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5010 Bill Oliver wrote: > > > > > Though there is one issue in all of this, ignoring the underlying > accusations of credentials, basic science, living quarters, and > sexual proclivities that is important to us as forensic professionals. > It is one that all of us have had to deal with. How should we > as forensic professionals interact with the media, and what > about the practice of leveraging one's forensic credentials > into becoming a talking head for the yellow journalists. > > In general, I avoid the press wherever possible, and deal with them > on a purely factual basis when I cannot -- with the exception of > a couple of post 9/11 things for the Armed Forces. There seems > to be a subset of us, however, who seem profoundly fond of their > 15 minutes of fame, and the bucks associated with playing consultant > to the media. > > I see a significant danger in some of this. The first is that > by representing themselves as expert peers, such folk end up > representing the entire discipline to the lay public. The second > is that the very nature of the interviews and the seduction of > fame seems to make folk end up saying and doing things that > eventually damages their credibility in general. The classic > example of this in my field is the Forensic Pathologist who > managed to end up on the Alien Autopsy video. > > I'm not talking about the run-of-the-mill dealing with > the press that many of us do. Everybody ends up in front of the camera > for the occasional high-profile case, and dealing with the press as a > part of the job is part and parcel of being a forensic professional.. > I'm talking about the folk who seek out the camera. We all get the > opportunity to opine on camera about cases we are not actually involved > with, and such media actions are not part of the every day work of > being a professional forensic scientist. > > There are a three or four patterns I've seen in the past few years. > The first is the "grand old man" pattern where a retired or semi-retired > professional ends up going around the country getting in front of > cameras. The second are the issue folk who get in front of the > camera because they are on a mission from God. The third are > the basic publicity hounds who seem to be junkies for high > profile cases and hamming it up for the camera. > > Of these, the habit of seeking the camera seems to have the > long term effect of degrading one's professional credibility, > certainly in the first and last patterns. In large part this > is because such folk are almost by necessity opining about > cases without knowing what is actually going on in the case. > Thus, in the sniper case, we had folk opining about poor > interagency cooperation without a clue about what cooperation > was going on. We had folk opining about the "facts" of the > case without a clue about what those facts were. > > It seems, almost as a practical matter, that it would be > impossible to opine in such a way for the camera *without* > damaging one's credibility -- one damage's ones credibilty > by opining in error, and it is a commentary on the judgement > on the speaker that he or she is willing to come to such > conclusions based on incomplete data in the first place. > > There is a place, I suppose, for speakers to explain the > forensic science to the public. But it seems that few > people seem willing to stop at that -- inevitably, the > speakers move on to critiquing and opining about cases > about which they are largely ignorant. > > With rare exception, most of the people I truly admire and most > of the more exemplary professional folk I know tend to avoid > the camera rather than seek it. > > Is the experience of the rest of the people on the list similar? > > billo Since a part of my job is dealing with the media, I'm very aware of these problems. I lecture mostly on old historic cases- (to me, recent tends to mean 1940), but its not much protection, The current sniper matter had me avoiding incredibly stupid and insensitive queries-my favorite, from a news service guy, began by telling me of his millions of readers ( that was supposed to make heart beat faster, I asuume) and went on to ask "Do you consider the sniper up there with Jack the Ripper? and if not, why not? Mind you, this was before there was an arrest.Just what we needed-purple prose designed to egg the shooter on. I think it unethical as well as unwise to comment publicly on some one else's current case. The problem is that a certain amount of interaction with the press is part of the territory.I sometimes think that coping with reporters should be part of forensic training, The nedia folk can be much worse than an attorney on cross-they can cut, insert, and generally create havoc.And their agenda is certainly not to provide a reasoned objective view of forensic science. EJ -- E. J.. Wagner's web site is at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ (also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) From daemon Mon Oct 28 17:41:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SMfGj05212 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsfep14-int.chello.nl (amsfep14-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.22]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SMfFi05206 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from u9x7i1 ([24.132.17.42]) by amsfep14-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20021028223027.YPAR1274.amsfep14-int.chello.nl@u9x7i1> for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:30:27 +0100 From: "Jan Zonjee" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:30:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: some information on BZ gas available on the internet Reply-to: J.N.Zonjee@chello.nl Message-ID: <3DBDC88C.4459.F1F8A4@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-description: Mail message body X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9SMfGi05207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4539 Dear list members, The question of professor Anil Aggrawal triggered my curiosity. Hereby some URL's with the interesting parts of the page. However, the best one is on the bottom of the page (also the only one I found with the chemical structure of BZ). This page can also be reached through the home page of the United States Army Medical Research Institute of Chemical Defense: http://ccc.apgea.army.mil/ Look for "Textbook of Military Medicine is now available in HTML" under the heading "Products" and go to Chapter 11, Incapacitating agents Kind regards, Jan Zonjee --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pcms.org/Bulletins/2002/MarApr/Thoman%20Article.htm 5. Incapacitating agents include BZ, a Glycolate, anticholinergic compound related to Atraphine, Scopolamine, and Hyoscyamine and Agent 15, an alleged incapacity agent used by Iraq, that is likely to be chemically identical to BZ or closely related to it. http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~bilheal/aykonu/AY2002/February2002/kiming.htm 5.Incapacitating Agents Substances, which cause disturbances that, resemble serious mental illnesses known as psychoses. The most frequently used substances are BZ (3- quinuclidinylbenzilate) and LSD (Lysergic Acid Diethyl amide). BZ Blocks the impulse control of the role that acetylcholine plays in the central and peripheral nervous systems. Treatment In case of inhalation: 1. Remove the patient from the contaminated area. 2. Control the patient’s pulmonary functions. 3. Put the patient in a quiet and secure area for observation. 4. Administer physostimin salycilate. Adults: 2 mg (i.v.) (10 ml %5 dextrose) / Children: 0.02 mg/kg (i.v.) 5. Symptomatic treatment. Tachyarrhythma’s that do not respond to physostigmine may respond to propranolel (i.v.) http://www.undcp.org/odccp/terrorism_weapons_mass_destruction_page004.html BZ (QNB): Quinuclidinebenzillate: an incapacitating psychoto-mimetic agent developed in the 1950s. This psycho-chemical hallucinogen substance affects the nervous system, causing visual and aural fake perceptions and a sense of unreality. Psychochemical Agents Psychochemical agents, often referred to as incapacitating agents, temporarily prevent an individual from carrying out assigned actions. These agents may be administered covertly by contaminating food or water, or they may be released as aerosols. The characteristics of the incapacitants: * High Potency (i.e. and extremely low dose is effective) and logistic feasibility. * Effects produced mainly by altering or disrupting the higher regulatory activity of the central nervous system. * Duration of action is hours or days, rather than a momentary or transient action. * No permanent injury is produced. http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/monerveagents.htm Symptoms The first symptoms appear in 30 minutes to several hours and may persist for several days. Abnormal, inappropriate behavior may be the only sign of intoxication. Those affected may make irrational statements and have delusions or hallucinations. In some instances, the victim may complain of dizziness, muscular incoordination, dry mouth, and difficulty in swallowing. The standard incapacitant in the U.S. is 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate (BZ), a cholinergic blocking agent, which is effective in producing delirium that may last several days. In small doses it will cause an increase in heart rate, pupil size, and skin temperature, as well as drowsiness, dry skin, and a decrease in alertness. As the dose is increased to higher levels, there is a progressive deterioration of mental capability, ending in stupor. Treatment The principal requirement for first aid is to prevent victims from injuring themselves and others during the toxic psychosis. Generally, there is no specific therapy for intoxication. However, with BZ and other agents in the class of compounds known as glycolates, physostigmine is the treatment of choice. It is not effective during the first four hours following exposure; after that, it is very effective as long as the treatment is continued. However, treatment does not shorten the duration of BZ intoxication, and premature discontinuation of therapy will result in relapse. http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001239.htm 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate (BZ) [CAS 6581-06-02] http://ccc.apgea.army.mil/products/textbook/HTML_Restricted/chapters/chapter_11.h tm#The%20most ----------------------------------------------------------- From daemon Mon Oct 28 18:56:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9SNukG06561 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from app5.nasc.inter.net ([203.176.60.253]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9SNuki06555 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [137.186.36.207] (helo=oemcomputer) by app5.nasc.inter.net with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 186JkS-0003uR-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:56:44 -0500 From: "Peter W. Mullen" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:56:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Reply-To: pmullen@kemic.com Message-Id: Subject: Re: About BZ MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Opera 6.05 build 1140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3007 Dear Anil, "BZ" (also known as "QNB") is 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate, a fairly stable crystalline compound. The abbreviation "BZ" may have derived from the term, "benzilate". Chemically, BZ is also considered a glycolic acid ester (or glycolate) derivative . Pharmacologically, BZ is a long acting anticholinergic which is approximately 25 times more potent that atropine. Depending on the dose, BZ can readily cause delirium states. Being an anticholinergic agent, one might consider, in respect to its effects, the old memory aid (for summarizing the systemic toxic effects of belladonna): "dry as a bone, red as a beet, hot as a hare and mad as a hatter"! Physostigmine or related acetylcholinesterase inhibitors should be effective in treating BZ toxicity. If BZ was the incapacitating agent actually used in the recent Moscow Cultural Theatre hostage-taking, it would likely have been dispersed in a very fine aerosol form considering its crystalline nature. News accounts indicate that hostages reported seeing a "mist". Best regards, Peter Peter W. Mullen, PhD, FCSFS KEMIC BIORESEARCH Kentville Nova Scotia, B4N 4H8 Canada Tel. (902) 678-8195 Fax. (902) 678-2839 URL www.kemic.com 10/28/02 12:33:09 PM, Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote: >Dear List, >Can somebody tell me what exactly is the chemical composition of the gas >BZ, and why is it called BZ. I only know that the US used BZ during >Vietnam war. Also during the recently washout of chechen rebels from a >Russian theatre, the Russian army used BZ. >Any information would be highly appreciated. Thanks >Sincerely >Professor Anil Aggrawal >Professor of Forensic Medicine >Maulana Azad Medical College >S-299 Greater Kailash-1 >New Delhi-110048 >INDIA >Phone: 6465460, 6413101 >Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com >Page me via ICQ #19727771 >Websites: > >1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals >http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html >2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology >http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html >3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia >http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html >4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page >http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html >5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 >6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews >http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html >7. Forensic Careers >http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html > >*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I >tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being >called when the top doctors have failed!* > `\|||/ > (@@) >ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ >_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| >___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ >_____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ > > > > > > From daemon Mon Oct 28 19:54:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9T0sPv07787 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bcpl.net (mail.bcpl.net [204.255.212.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9T0sOi07781 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (cdefine@localhost) by mail.bcpl.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g9T0sN910499; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:54:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:54:23 -0500 (EST) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdefine@mail To: pmullen@kemic.com cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: About BZ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3893 If the agent in the Russian hostage situation is Bz, why is the media reporting that the suspect agent is a narcotic/morphine gas? I presume this may be based upon the rapid respiratory failure apparently observed in the victims. In perusing USAMRID's Textbook of Military Medicine, respiratory failure is not a prominent feature of BZ. In fact, 'The effects of BZ by any route are slow in onset and long in duration. Performanance decline is usually barely measurable at one hour, reaches a peak at 8 hours...although higher doses could produce incapacitation in one hour.' This does not sound like BZ, which causes anticholinergic delirium progressing to coma. Carol On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Peter W. Mullen wrote: > Dear Anil, > > "BZ" (also known as "QNB") is 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate, a fairly stable > crystalline compound. The abbreviation "BZ" may have derived from the term, > "benzilate". Chemically, BZ is also considered a glycolic acid ester (or > glycolate) derivative . > > Pharmacologically, BZ is a long acting anticholinergic which is approximately 25 > times more potent that atropine. Depending on the dose, BZ can readily cause > delirium states. Being an anticholinergic agent, one might consider, in respect > to its effects, the old memory aid (for summarizing the systemic toxic effects > of belladonna): "dry as a bone, red as a beet, hot as a hare and mad as a > hatter"! Physostigmine or related acetylcholinesterase inhibitors should be > effective in treating BZ toxicity. > > If BZ was the incapacitating agent actually used in the recent Moscow Cultural > Theatre hostage-taking, it would likely have been dispersed in a very fine > aerosol form considering its crystalline nature. News accounts indicate that > hostages reported seeing a "mist". > > Best regards, > Peter > > Peter W. Mullen, PhD, FCSFS > KEMIC BIORESEARCH > Kentville > Nova Scotia, B4N 4H8 > Canada > > Tel. (902) 678-8195 Fax. (902) 678-2839 URL www.kemic.com > > > > > > 10/28/02 12:33:09 PM, Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote: > > >Dear List, > >Can somebody tell me what exactly is the chemical composition of the gas > >BZ, and why is it called BZ. I only know that the US used BZ during > >Vietnam war. Also during the recently washout of chechen rebels from a > >Russian theatre, the Russian army used BZ. > >Any information would be highly appreciated. Thanks > >Sincerely > >Professor Anil Aggrawal > >Professor of Forensic Medicine > >Maulana Azad Medical College > >S-299 Greater Kailash-1 > >New Delhi-110048 > >INDIA > >Phone: 6465460, 6413101 > >Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com > >Page me via ICQ #19727771 > >Websites: > > > >1.Tarun and Anil Aggrawal's Programming Page for Forensic Professionals > >http://anil1956.tripod.com/index.html > >2.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology > >http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html > >3. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia > >http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html > >4. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page > >http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html > >5. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page > >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 > >6. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews > >http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html > >7. Forensic Careers > >http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html > > > >*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I > >tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being > >called when the top doctors have failed!* > > `\|||/ > > (@@) > >ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ > >_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| > >___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ > >_____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From daemon Mon Oct 28 20:31:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9T1V6E08544 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:31:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9T1V5i08538 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-156-86.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.156.86] helo=BART.starpower.net) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 186LDm-0005kQ-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:31:06 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20021028201640.01501288@pop.rcn.com> X-Sender: johnfrench@pop.rcn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:31:22 -0500 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, Carol Define MD From: John French Subject: Re: About BZ and Narcotic - Nonsense In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1211 The media is saying it was a "general anaesthetic" because that's what the Russian doctors in charge told them it was. Why did the MDs say that when common sense says it is not true? Because that's what the Kremlin told them to say. Its obviously not an anticholinergic, either, as Carol points out. Why have the US and the UK come out in support of Russia's use of this lethal gas? Because the politics of "justifiable" lethal gassing is more important than the morality of killing masses of innocents. We must try to remember we are not dealing with chemistry here. We are dealing with wartime politics. But the Three Powers cannot prevent independent tox analysis of all 100 corpses. Already claims are being made that it was a powerful nerve gas developed in the 1970s and never tested on humans (until now, of course). If so, BZ might be an antidote, and thus could have been used at the site. The truth will out. John French At 07:54 PM 10/28/2002, you wrote: >If the agent in the Russian hostage situation is Bz, why is the media >reporting that the suspect agent is a narcotic/morphine gas? I presume >this may be based upon the rapid respiratory failure apparently observed >in the victims. From daemon Tue Oct 29 00:32:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9T5W6J12555 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:32:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfilter1.uts.edu.au (mailfilter1.itd.uts.edu.au [138.25.22.72]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g9T5W4i12549 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.itd.uts.edu.au(138.25.22.96) by mailfilter1.uts.edu.au via csmap id 11099; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:27:51 +1100 (EST) Received: from costa-conn.uts.edu.au ([138.25.82.109]) by mail.uts.edu.au (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H4Q003KRA1FG7@mail.uts.edu.au> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:32:04 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:31:15 +1100 From: Costa Conn Subject: X-Sender: cconn@mailbox.uts.edu.au To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <5.1.1.6.0.20021029162450.00b0c468@mailbox.uts.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 X-NAIMIME-Disclaimer: 1 X-NAIMIME-Modified: 1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1758 Hi all I heard on the news today that the gas used by the Russians in storming the theater in Moscow was probably an opiate. (See http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/10/29/011.html) I find this rather unlikely given the low volatility of even low MW opiates. It seems to me this theory is based on symptoms (see above URL). However the symptoms (loss of motor coordination, memory loss, fainting, dry mouth, nausea and vomiting) are pretty general CNS poisoning symptoms, especially acetylcholine esterase inhibitors, such as one would expect from an organophosphate. If I were forced to guess (which I'm reluctant to at this stage) I'd say a fairly low toxicity organophosphate sounds more likely. Any chemists/toxicologists care to comment? Dr Costa Conn Senior Lecturer Center for Forensic Science, Faculty of Science University of Technology, Sydney PO Box 123, Broadway, NSW, AUSTRALIA, 2007 Phone: 61-2-9514-1881 Mobile: 0408 698 464 Fax: 61-2-9514-1628 UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER ======================================================================== This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. ======================================================================== From daemon Tue Oct 29 01:55:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9T6tin13795 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from osiris.uid0.sk (osiris.uid0.sk [62.168.97.100]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9T6tgi13789 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from trojan (unknown [158.195.48.148]) by osiris.uid0.sk (Postfix) with SMTP id EDD271B33A2 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:56:52 +0100 (CET) Reply-To: From: "trrojan" To: Subject: Re: About BZ and Narcotic - Nonsense Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:57:43 +0100 Message-ID: <002501c27f18$7b82af60$9430c39e@trojan> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021028201640.01501288@pop.rcn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 324 Russian press (www.gazeta.ru) refferes to the agent used as trimethylphentanyle.... I was not able to find any refference to trimethylphentanyle as gas ... ============================= MUDr. Mgr. Peter Kovác Institute for Forensic Medicine School of Medicine Comenius University Sasinkova 4 811 08 Bratislava Slovakia From daemon Tue Oct 29 03:39:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9T8dvG15191 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from osiris.uid0.sk (osiris.uid0.sk [62.168.97.100]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9T8dui15185 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from trojan (unknown [158.195.48.148]) by osiris.uid0.sk (Postfix) with SMTP id 89C0E1B33A2 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:41:11 +0100 (CET) Reply-To: From: "trrojan" To: Subject: was RE: About BZ and Narcotic - Nonsense Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:08:39 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c27f27$0b33ee40$9430c39e@trojan> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021028201640.01501288@pop.rcn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1298 >Why have the US and the UK come out in support of Russia's use of this lethal gas? Because the politics of "justifiable" lethal gassing is more important than the morality of killing masses of innocents. Imagine this tactical situation: you have 700+ hostages in a large building all over are explosive charges capable to destroy the building with 30+ highly motivated subjects which claim they are ready to die for their cause. Some of the subjects have belts with explosives on their body ready to blow themselves and to take as many hostages as they can with them. Add to this coctail requests which are not possible to comply with and couple of already dead hostages. For a special operation this is really nightmare tactical situation.The casulities among the hostages are more than probable. Decision to perform rescue operation is about the will to accept such a risk. In my opinion, under such a conditions the survival of about 80 per cent of hostages is near-wonder. I doubt the FBI's HRT, SAS or any other special force unit would use different modus operandi that gasing the building to reduce risk of explosion. ============================= MUDr. Mgr. Peter Kovác Institute for Forensic Medicine School of Medicine Comenius University Sasinkova 4 811 08 Bratislava Slovakia From daemon Tue Oct 29 06:32:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9TBW7w17453 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bcpl.net (mail.bcpl.net [204.255.212.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9TBW6i17447 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:32:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (cdefine@localhost) by mail.bcpl.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g9TBVsP15016; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:32:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdefine@mail To: peter@kovac.sk cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: About BZ and Narcotic - Nonsense In-Reply-To: <002501c27f18$7b82af60$9430c39e@trojan> Message-ID: X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9TBW6i17448 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 770 On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, trrojan wrote: > > Russian press (www.gazeta.ru) refferes to the agent used as > trimethylphentanyle.... > I was not able to find any refference to trimethylphentanyle as gas ... This must be a fentanyl compound, fentanyl being a rapidly acting opioid agonist believed by some [Kirsch 1986] to be 3,000 times as powerful as morphine and 1,000 times stronger than heroin. Fentanyl can be absorbed through the lungs so rapidly that drug addicts who smoke it can die from an over-dose after just one inhalation [Forensic Drug Abuse Advisor, 1994]. Carol Define MD > ============================= > MUDr. Mgr. Peter Kovác > Institute for Forensic Medicine > School of Medicine > Comenius University > Sasinkova 4 > 811 08 Bratislava > Slovakia > > From daemon Tue Oct 29 07:52:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9TCqrf18860 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9TCqqi18854 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-156-86.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com ([207.172.156.86] helo=BART.starpower.net) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 186VrZ-0000t1-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:52:53 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20021029075301.014eba20@pop.rcn.com> X-Sender: johnfrench@pop.rcn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:53:12 -0500 To: , From: John French Subject: Re: was RE: About BZ and Narcotic - Nonsense In-Reply-To: <002801c27f27$0b33ee40$9430c39e@trojan> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20021028201640.01501288@pop.rcn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9TCqqi18855 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1437 I stand corrected - it might well have been the best choice. John French At 03:08 AM 10/29/2002, trrojan wrote: >>Why have the US and the UK come out in support of Russia's use of this >lethal gas? Because the politics of "justifiable" lethal gassing is more >important than the morality of killing masses of innocents. > >Imagine this tactical situation: you have 700+ hostages in a large building >all over are explosive charges capable to destroy the building with 30+ >highly motivated subjects which claim they are ready to die for their cause. >Some of the subjects have belts with explosives on their body ready to blow >themselves and to take as many hostages as they can with them. Add to this >coctail requests which are not possible to comply with and couple of already >dead hostages. > >For a special operation this is really nightmare tactical situation.The >casulities among the hostages are more than probable. Decision to perform >rescue operation is about the will to accept such a risk. In my opinion, >under such a conditions the survival of about 80 per cent of hostages is >near-wonder. I doubt the FBI's HRT, SAS or any other special force unit >would use different modus operandi that gasing the building to reduce risk >of explosion. > >============================= >MUDr. Mgr. Peter Kovác >Institute for Forensic Medicine >School of Medicine >Comenius University >Sasinkova 4 >811 08 Bratislava >Slovakia From daemon Tue Oct 29 09:33:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9TEXYq21127 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx5.mail.ru (mx5.mail.ru [194.67.57.15]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9TEXWi21120 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from drweb by mx5.mail.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim MX.5) id 186XQx-000J9f-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:33:31 +0300 Received: from f13.int ([10.0.0.105] helo=f13.mail.ru) by mx5.mail.ru with esmtp (Exim MX.5) id 186XQw-000J88-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:33:30 +0300 Received: from mail by f13.mail.ru with local (Exim FE.1) id 186XQv-000JE6-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:33:29 +0300 Received: from [80.80.111.240] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:33:29 +0300 From: "Yakovlev" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: About BZ Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: 80.80.99.18 via proxy [80.80.111.240] Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:33:29 +0300 Reply-To: "Yakovlev" Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 588 Hi all, In my opinion, all that has taken place in Moscow was consequence of effect of gas (or aerosol) with miorelaxation features. One of the hostages giving interview on TV told "...I had felt I can't to stir at first". Only then he had lost consciousness. My "version" is confirmed by that the terrorists had no time to spring to their feet. If they were not "frozen" instantly they had a lot of time to press buttons. Best regards, Aleksey Yakovlev, Rostov-on-Don, Russia. mailto:alexjac@mail.ru My ICQ 169182490 http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=169182490 From daemon Tue Oct 29 19:26:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9U0QOZ07261 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bcpl.net (mail.bcpl.net [204.255.212.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9U0QOi07255 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (cdefine@localhost) by mail.bcpl.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g9U0QLX15315; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:26:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:26:21 -0500 (EST) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdefine@mail To: Yakovlev cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: About BZ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 899 Dear Aleksey, Today there was more in the newspaper about the terrorist take-over tragedy, and I just want you to know that we Americans send our prayers to the unfortunate victims, and we send our sincerest sympathy to their families and all your countrymen. Carol On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Yakovlev wrote: > Hi all, > > In my opinion, all that has taken place in Moscow > was consequence of effect of gas (or aerosol) with miorelaxation features. One of the hostages giving interview on TV told "...I had felt I can't to stir at first". Only then he had lost consciousness. My "version" is confirmed by that the terrorists had no time to spring to their feet. If they were not "frozen" instantly they had a lot of time to press buttons. > > > Best regards, > Aleksey Yakovlev, > Rostov-on-Don, Russia. > > mailto:alexjac@mail.ru > My ICQ 169182490 > http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=169182490 > > > From daemon Wed Oct 30 01:23:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9U6NU811955 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.mail.ru (mx1.mail.ru [194.67.57.11]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9U6NTi11949 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from drweb by mx1.mail.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim MX.1) id 186mGG-000MRs-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:23:28 +0300 Received: from f21.int ([10.0.0.143] helo=f21.mail.ru) by mx1.mail.ru with esmtp (Exim MX.1) id 186mGG-000MRG-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:23:28 +0300 Received: from mail by f21.mail.ru with local (Exim FE.1) id 186mFx-000OpB-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:23:09 +0300 Received: from [80.80.111.240] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:23:09 +0300 From: "Yakovlev" To: "Carol Define MD" Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re[2]: About BZ Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: 80.80.99.18 via proxy [80.80.111.240] Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:23:09 +0300 In-Reply-To: Reply-To: "Yakovlev" Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 418 Dear Carol, Many thanks for your kind words. I hope that the horror of September 11 and Moscow Theatre will be never repeated. > > Dear Aleksey, > > Today there was more in the newspaper about the terrorist take-over > tragedy, and I just want you to know that we Americans send our prayers to > the unfortunate victims, and we send our sincerest sympathy to their > families and all your countrymen. > > Carol From daemon Wed Oct 30 08:13:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g9UDDR116848 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from troopers.state.ny.us ([161.11.133.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g9UDDQi16842 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from NYSPGATE-Message_Server by troopers.state.ny.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:13:26 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:11:05 -0500 From: "Mark Lewis" To: cdefine@bcpl.net, alexjac@mail.ru Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Re[2]: About BZ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g9UDDQi16843 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 664 And there are thousands upon thousands who read your words; upon which they whisper, with reverence, a prayer in agreement, a prayer in sympathy, and a prayer for us all. Respectfully, Mark >>> "Yakovlev" 10/30 1:23 AM >>> Dear Carol, Many thanks for your kind words. I hope that the horror of September 11 and Moscow Theatre will be never repeated. > > Dear Aleksey, > > Today there was more in the newspaper about the terrorist take-over > tragedy, and I just want you to know that we Americans send our prayers to > the unfortunate victims, and we send our sincerest sympathy to their > families and all your countrymen. > > Carol