Judicial gate keeping, English style

We concluded that: = The=20 final segment of these experiments examined the effectiveness of various=20= treatments for either removing or modifying DNA so that it could no longer = be=20 successfully amplified. In = these=20 experiments saliva, extracted DNA and amplified DNA were applied to a = plastic=20 plate, allowed to dry and then exposed to various “treatments”:= (1) UV (254 nm) light for 30 = minutes, 1=20 hour, 2 hours and overnight/“Stratalinker”, (2)commercial = bleach “wipe”, (3)=20 ethanol “wipe”, (4) DNA Away™ =20 “wipe” and (5) an autoclave cycle . =20 These samples were then rehydrated with deionized water, added to a = PCR=20 cocktail, amplified and then analyzed on a product gel. In this set of experiments, 10% = bleach,=20 overnight exposure to UV, “DNA Away” and autoclaving were = found to be effective=20 in either removing or modifying DNA from biological samples or extracted = DNA so=20 that it could no longer act as a viable template in the DQA1 or PM = amplification=20 reaction . Only a bleach = solution (=20 20% v/v or greater) was found to be effective in destroying amplified DNA = as a=20 template in a DQA1 amplification reaction. <= /DIV>

Terry Spear

California Criminalistics=20 Institute

Sacramento,=20 California

Terry.Spear@doj.ca.gov &nbs= p;=20

>>> "Kelly Esslinger"=20 <kjessling@hotmail.com> 03/21/02 01:27PM >>>

Hi follow list members,
Does anyone know of a published study that = shows=20 10% Bleach and/or UV light are sufficient to decontaminate areas for= =20 extraneous DNA?
Thanks for any help in=20 advance!
Kelly

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--=_C09D6A53.93F2BCC0-- From daemon Fri Mar 22 13:24:16 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2MIOG320425 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f113.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.113]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2MIOFM20420 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:24:12 -0800 Received: from 35.8.67.36 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:24:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [35.8.67.36] From: "Kelly Esslinger" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Thank you! Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:24:12 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2002 18:24:12.0904 (UTC) FILETIME=[C43F5E80:01C1D1CE] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 364

I just wanted to thank everyone for so kindly responding to my reference question on Bleach and UV decontamination for DNA.....it was very helpful! thanks so much!
Kelly

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From daemon Fri Mar 22 13:33:26 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2MIXQ220736 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from c0mailgw01.prontomail.com (mailgw.prontomail.com [209.185.149.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2MIXPM20731 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from c0web106 (209.185.149.10) by c0mailgw01.prontomail.com (NPlex 6.0.045) id 3C9B707C00005B26; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:29:12 -0800 X-Version: medscape 7.5.3081.0 From: "mary raidy" Message-Id: <107E5BBA2A3C4BF4790F43A5FBAE96A3@mary_raidy.medscape.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:28:23 -0500 X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com, "charles brenner" Subject: Re: DNA Statistics CC: X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 870 In relation to personal individuality, fingerprints, palmprints, facial profiles and dna are mentioned. I would like to add blood groups to the dna evaluations. If dna is available, examination of areas of three chromosomes, #1 ,#4, and #9, involving blood group systems Rh, Duffy, MNSs, and ABO would give a lot of information about an individual. It would probably exclude over 75% of suspects. Examination of other blood group systems, Kell, Lewis, Kidd, and Diego gives the possibility of individual identification, without using probability figures of one in a billion . Identity could be 100% (except for identical twins). A database would not be necessary, and the use of blood groups would be a lot more specific than the use of STR's. Mary Raidy Sent by Medscape Mail: Free Portable E-mail for Professionals on the Move http://www.medscape.com From daemon Fri Mar 22 13:48:26 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2MImQL21304 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2MImOM21299 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from user-11207lt.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.30.189] helo=forensicdna.com) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oU5L-0005lS-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:48:19 -0500 Message-ID: <3C9B7C7D.65ADDEBE@forensicdna.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:48:28 -0800 From: Norah Rudin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kelly Esslinger CC: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Thank you! References: Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1445 Kelly,

Perhaps you would consider posting that information to the list as it is of general interest.

Norah Rudin
--

Norah Rudin, Ph.D.
Forensic DNA Consultant
norah@forensicdna.com
http://www.forensicdna.com
http://www.forensicdna.com/Bookstore/index.html

Kelly Esslinger wrote:

I just wanted to thank everyone for so kindly responding to my reference question on Bleach and UV decontamination for DNA.....it was very helpful! thanks so much!
Kelly

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here

From daemon Fri Mar 22 14:29:56 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2MJTuV22509 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2MJTsM22504 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.253.85.73]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020322192951.CJMZ7206.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:29:51 +0000 Message-ID: <001e01c1d1d7$c2ceef80$4955fd3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: "mary raidy" Cc: Subject: Re. Database Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:28:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D1D7.BF8012A0" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5964 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D1D7.BF8012A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am very interested in finding out more about your suggestions. Would = it be possible to amplify at the relevant chromosomes to examine these = blood groups that could give 100% certainty of identification bar = identical twins? If not how could such a system be applied to very small = stains? Regarding the need for a database, the system that you propose would = depend on having an identified individual to test against the unsolved = crime scene staining. In the UK thousands of crimes have been solved as = a result of the National DNA Database. This consists of random searches = of the National DNA Database by police forces seeking to match DNA = profiles from crime scene stains to DNA stored on the Database. The use = of the Database enabled the police to generate lines of enquiry, exclude = people on the Database and/or confirm particular suspects as worthy of = further investigation. It is just my opinion but I cannot envisage = policing without access to such a Database. Furthermore, my particular = interest concerns cold cases. I am dealing with a notorious case in the = UK. It resulted in a travesty of justice which was corrected on appeal. = This year DNA was obtained from the crime scene from a male who police = said they 'believed was directly involved in the murder.' The trail had = gone cold - the appalling murder being 14 years ago. The National DNA = Database enabled many thousands of people to be speedily eliminated as = the source of that DNA. This in turn saves valuable police time, = allowing them to concentrate on more likely lines of enquiry. It is also = my opinion that cold cases without any particular people to investigate = as likely candidates could have new lines of enquiry generated from a = search of National Databases. Such databases also allow for checking of = databases across international borders as it cannot be assumed that = criminals will stay active and resident in only one country. Useful = lines of enquiry could be generated by checking unsolved crime scene DNA = profiles against that of individuals stored on National Databases = throughout the world. Consequently, I think that the system that you = mention is very interesting and worthy of very serious consideration, = but ought to be subject to databasing as it is in my opinion a valuable = investigative tool. Could you refer me to any publications on this = subject. Thanks in advance. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D1D7.BF8012A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am very interested in finding out = more about your=20 suggestions. Would it be possible to amplify at the relevant chromosomes = to=20 examine these blood groups that could give 100% certainty of = identification bar=20 identical twins? If not how could such a system be applied to very small = stains?

Regarding the need for a database, the = system that=20 you propose would depend on having an identified individual to test = against the=20 unsolved crime scene staining. In the UK thousands of crimes have been = solved as=20 a result of the National DNA Database. This consists of random searches = of the=20 National DNA Database by police forces seeking to match DNA profiles = from crime=20 scene stains to DNA stored on the Database. The use of the Database = enabled the=20 police to generate lines of enquiry, exclude people on the Database = and/or=20 confirm particular suspects as worthy of further investigation. It is = just my=20 opinion but I cannot envisage policing without access to such a = Database.=20 Furthermore, my particular interest concerns cold cases. I am dealing = with a=20 notorious case in the UK. It resulted in a travesty of justice which was = corrected on appeal. This year DNA was obtained from the crime scene = from a male=20 who police said they 'believed was directly involved in the murder.' The = trail=20 had gone cold - the appalling murder being 14 years ago. The National = DNA=20 Database enabled many thousands of people to be speedily eliminated as = the=20 source of that DNA. This in turn saves valuable police time, allowing = them to=20 concentrate on more likely lines of enquiry. It is also my opinion that = cold=20 cases without any particular people to investigate as likely candidates = could=20 have new lines of enquiry generated from a search of National Databases. = Such=20 databases also allow for checking of databases across international = borders as=20 it cannot be assumed that criminals will stay active and resident in = only one=20 country. Useful lines of enquiry could be generated by checking unsolved = crime=20 scene DNA profiles against that of individuals stored on National = Databases=20 throughout the world. Consequently, I think that the system that you = mention is=20 very interesting and worthy of very serious consideration, but ought to = be=20 subject to databasing as it is in my opinion a valuable investigative = tool.=20 Could you refer me to any publications on this subject. Thanks in=20 advance.

Best Wishes

Satish Sekar

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D1D7.BF8012A0-- From daemon Fri Mar 22 15:30:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2MKU2M24319 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:30:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f33.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2MKU0M24314 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:29:59 -0800 Received: from 208.172.26.30 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:29:58 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.172.26.30] From: "David Smith" To: mary_raidy@medscape.com, Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com, cbrenner@uclink.berkeley.edu Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: DNA Statistics Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:29:58 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2002 20:29:59.0117 (UTC) FILETIME=[562417D0:01C1D1E0] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1397 I would be interested to see how individuality can be determined using blood groups whothout using probabilities. Dave Smith >From: "mary raidy" >To: Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com, "charles brenner" > >CC: >Subject: Re: DNA Statistics >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:28:23 -0500 > >In relation to personal individuality, fingerprints, palmprints, facial >profiles and >dna are mentioned. I would like to add blood groups to the dna >evaluations. > >If dna is available, examination of areas of three chromosomes, #1 ,#4, >and #9, >involving blood group systems Rh, Duffy, MNSs, and ABO would give a lot >of >information about an individual. It would probably exclude over 75% of >suspects. > >Examination of other blood group systems, Kell, Lewis, Kidd, and Diego >gives the possibility of individual identification, without using >probability >figures of one in a billion . Identity could be 100% (except for identical >twins). > >A database would not be necessary, and the use of blood groups would be >a lot more specific than the use of STR's. > >Mary Raidy > >Sent by Medscape Mail: Free Portable E-mail for Professionals on the Move >http://www.medscape.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Fri Mar 22 16:01:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2ML1Dg25096 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f56.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.56]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2ML1CM25091 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:00:54 -0800 Received: from 35.8.67.40 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:00:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [35.8.67.40] From: "Kelly Esslinger" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Bleach/UV responses Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:00:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2002 21:00:54.0645 (UTC) FILETIME=[A81F3250:01C1D1E4] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3928

Dear List,
Here is the response I received.....the other was a phone # for a person to contact, so I won't post that information. I also found later on in Butler's book: Forensic DNA Typing, a reference to Bleach/UV decontamination on Page 50 (if I remember correctly). Butler gives 2 sources for this information.....I'll have to go home and check...I don't recall the 2 sources for his information either...I'll post that once I look it up.

In reference to my earlier question on soil and DNA, I found a reference that said soil degraded DNA extracted from tooth pulp. The reference was Strachnan in JFS. Butler also references this topic in his book and lists other references which I cannot recall off the top of my head.....I'll also post this after I look it up.

_________________________________________________________________

- There are a couple of references in BioTechniques that you might find useful: (1) Parameters Affecting Susceptibility of PCR Contamination to UV Inactivation by G. Sarkar and S. Sommer in [Biotechniques Vol. 10, No. 5 (1991) p.590-594 and (2) PCR: How to Kill Unwanted DNA by A. Prince and L. Andrus in Biotechniques Vol.12, No. 3 (1992) p. 358-360.

When we conducted a study on what it takes to eliminate contamination from biological samples (Insight into Your PCR-Based DNA Laboratory presented at the Northwest Association of Forensic Scientists Fall 1996 meeting) we found that it depends upon: the amount and type of sample (body fluid, extracted DNA, PCR product), (2) amount of time the "treatment" was applied [e.g. UV was capable of eliminating contamination from some body fluids and extracted DNA only after overnight exposure /it was never effective for PCR product in our experiments] and (3) the nature of the treatment (i.e. bleach, UV, etc.).

We concluded that: The final segment of these experiments examined the effectiveness of various treatments for either removing or modifying DNA so that it could no longer be successfully amplified. In these experiments saliva, extracted DNA and amplified DNA were applied to a plastic plate, allowed to dry and then exposed to various “treatments”: (1) UV (254 nm) light for 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours and overnight/“Stratalinker”, (2)commercial bleach “wipe”, (3) ethanol “wipe”, (4) DNA Away™ “wipe” and (5) an autoclave cycle . These samples were then rehydrated with deionized water, added to a PCR cocktail, amplified and then analyzed on a product gel. In this set of experiments, 10% bleach, overnight exposure to UV, “DNA Away” and autoclaving were found to be effective in either removing or modifying DNA from biological samples or extracted DNA so that it could no longer act as a viable template in the DQA1 or PM amplification reaction . Only a bleach solution ( 20% v/v or greater) was found to be effective in destroying amplified DNA as a template in a DQA1 amplification reaction.

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From daemon Sat Mar 23 23:08:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2O48qv18287 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f129.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.129]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2O48oM18282 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:08:48 -0800 Received: from 203.109.250.95 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 04:08:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.250.95] From: "Richard Wright" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: responses on quicklime Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:08:48 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2002 04:08:48.0608 (UTC) FILETIME=[9968CE00:01C1D2E9] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2830 I had a gratifyingly large number of interesting replies (mostly by direct email) to my recent post on the effects of quicklime on soft tissue and bones. It would have been useful to give a digest (if you'll excuse the word), but the views expressed are as varied as the propositions I put in my original post. At the end of my post I asked whether there had been any replicative experiments. There have. In 1999 Heather Thew gave a paper in Indiana on experiments with buried pigs. I missed that abstract on the web, because she refers only to "lime". It seems she is interested in soft tissue, not bones. Some responders said that Heather Thew gave another paper on this topic to this year's AAFS meeting. I would be grateful if somebody could put me in touch with Heather Thew and/or let me have the abstract of the AAFS paper. There is a horrendous reference to quicklime by the British writer Oscar Wilde: "But we knew the work they had been at [prison warders after an execution], By the quicklime on their boots. . . . . And all the while the burning lime Eats flesh and bone away." That's from Oscar Wilde's 1898 "Ballad of Reading Gaol". The keywords "quicklime", "flesh" and "bone" show more precision than many of the vaguer references I found in the literature to "lime" and "remains". Oscar Wilde died in 1900. There is a twist. I am told that his biographer H. Montgomery Hyde writes that it was planned to exhume Wilde's body some years later, to put it in a permanent burying place. Therefore his body was initially buried in quicklime to destroy the flesh and leave the bones intact. When he was exhumed in 1909 the process had not worked on the flesh, which was preserved. In spite of that overt intention (to leave the bones intact) I note that nearly a hundred years later James and Nasmyth-Jones in For Sci Int, 54(1992) 81-91 attribute the very poor condition of some skeletons they studied "as due, in part at least, to having been buried in quicklime". Clearly replicative experiments are needed to settle this question. One analytical point to remember. In damp soils the natural sequence of rapid alteration is Quicklime (including chlorinated quicklime) --> Slaked/Hydrated Lime --> Calcium Carbonate. So my understanding is that if you find a white powdery/pasty substance with your remains don't expect a chemist to be able to tell you whether quicklime or slaked lime was used, as opposed to calcium carbonate. Finally, I am struck by the number of cases where quicklime is used in British cellars. One might almost conclude that in the land of my birth cellars are intended for aging bodies, not wine. Richard Wright _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From daemon Sun Mar 24 11:22:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2OGMJp27026 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f50.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.50]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2OGMIM27021 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:22:15 -0800 Received: from 207.73.73.107 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:22:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.73.73.107] From: "Kelly Esslinger" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Bleach/UV references and soil Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:22:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2002 16:22:15.0670 (UTC) FILETIME=[0FA99160:01C1D350] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1477

Dear list,
I apoligize for taking so long to respond....for those who are interested in following up more on this topic (I plan to look up these references for more information), but for the next 2 weeks I'm pretty swamped w/ work, so it'll be a while before I get to it. Butler references these 2 articles on Pg 50 of his book, Forensic DNA Typing.

Kwok, S. and Higuchi, R. (1989) Nature, 339, 237-238.

Prince, A.M., and Andrus, L. (1992) BioTechniques, 12, 358.

The reference I used regarding soil and degradation of DNA were:

Inman, Keith and Norah Rudin. An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis. CRC Press. 1997.

The article from JFS: Schwartz, TR, Schwartz, EA, Mieszerski L, McNally, L, Kobilinsky L. "Characterization of DNA Obtained from Teeth Subjected to Various Environmental Conditions." V. 36, Issue 4, Pgs. 979-990, 1991.

They tested a variety of condions on DNA from dental pulp...such as pH, Temperature, humidity, types of soil, aging. They concluded that except for soil, the other conditions did not affect the ability to obtain high molecular weight DNA.

Thanks to everyone for their help and patience.
Regards,
Kelly

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From daemon Sun Mar 24 12:00:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2OH0Xu27761 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.106]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2OH0WM27756 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from SkipnCar@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id v.197.4450316 (4362); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:00:17 -0500 (EST) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <197.4450316.29cf6021@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:00:17 EST Subject: Jan Bashinski To: ascld@lab.fws.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_197.4450316.29cf6021_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2713 --part1_197.4450316.29cf6021_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was sent to me by Jerry Chisum. I attended the retirement party for Ray Jensen, one of the California DOJ Lab managers, on Friday night (Mar 22) in Monterey. A few minutes later, Jan and her husband entered the room. Jan has lost quite a lot of weight; actually she looks 10 younger. She was glowing with an inner strength and had a smile and warm greeting for everyone. She gave a short speech and made a presentation to Ray after dinner. Her official retirement date is April 29th. Her retirement party (?) is on May 15. It would be great if everyone would send her a letter regarding how she has impacted the forensic field. I consider her one of the most influential forensic scientists of our generation. (Note I didn't say female.) --part1_197.4450316.29cf6021_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was sent to me by Jerry Chisum.

I attended the retirement party for Ray Jensen, one of the California DOJ Lab managers, on Friday night (Mar 22) in Monterey.

A few minutes later, Jan and her husband entered the room. Jan has lost quite a lot of weight; actually she looks 10 younger. She was glowing with an inner strength and had a smile and warm greeting for everyone. She gave a short speech and made a presentation to Ray after dinner.

Her official retirement date is April 29th. Her retirement party (?) is on May 15. It would be great if everyone would send her a letter regarding how she has impacted the forensic field. I consider her one of the most influential forensic scientists of our generation. (Note I didn't say female.)

--part1_197.4450316.29cf6021_boundary-- From daemon Sun Mar 24 15:17:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2OKHOX00968 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2OKHMM00963 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (d4287.pppdel.vsnl.net.in [203.197.207.147]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B23415D6 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 01:48:44 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3C9E35ED.99217BB2@vsnl.net> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 01:54:13 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Villebranch Case Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1872 Dear List Can somebody tell me about the celebrated Villebranch case of France (1764)? Thanks. I was reading Bernard J. Ficarra’s article entitled “History of Legal medicine” in Legal Medicine Annual 1976 (edited by Cyril Wecht). The article ranges from page 1 till 27. On page 7, Ficarra says, “In France, Antoine Louis (1723-92) was the pioneer in applying medical knowledge to courtroom practice and procedures.. .Antoine Louis in his discussion of a notorious court battle, known in French Legal History as the celebrated Villebranche case (1764), ridiculed the possibility of extremely protracted pregnancy.” This was the source, from where I came to know about this case. But what was the case? Thanks. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Sun Mar 24 16:00:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2OL0wq01800 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz (gatekeeper.esr.cri.nz [203.97.15.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g2OL0sM01795 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: FROM kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz BY kscxchg2.esr.cri.nz ; Mon Mar 25 09:00:48 2002 +1200 Received: by kscxchg2.esrit.co.nz with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:00:47 +1200 Message-ID: From: "Walsh, Kevan" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: DNA Statistics Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:00:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2694 Hi Mary I too would be interested in your thoughts regarding determining individuality. It's a problem we wrestle with in many fields of forensic science. Its interesting to see how some fields approach the problem differently to others. If your answer is not a probabilistic one and doesn't need databases, does it perhaps rely on the subjective assessment of the 'overwhelming correspondence' that occurs as a result of having 'DNA profiled' so many matching blood group systems?? Or do you propose a criterion which needs to be exceeded? Does it matter if the DNA profiling involves matching groups that are common ones (as well as can be judged without a database)? I would appreciate hearing how the assessment of blood groups differ from approaches for other evidence types. Perhaps you could also give a bit of background as to what form the evidence actually takes, as I may have misunderstood your intended acquisition of evidence. I assume you don't mean to simply blood-type the individuals in the various blood groups mentioned, but to somehow DNA-profile those chromosomes containing the coding information for those groups? Would DNA-profiling of this offer advantages over simple serological testing of the blood for those groups? As a non-DNA person, I'm obviously struggling with this concept. I'd be interested in background material on this approach, to help me better understand this approach. Kevan Walsh ESR Private Bag 92021 Auckland NEW ZEALAND Ph #64-9-8153903 Fax #64-9- 8496046 email: kevan.walsh@esr.cri.nz > ---------- > From: mary raidy[SMTP:mary_raidy@medscape.com] > Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 6:28 a.m. > To: Satish.sekar@ntlworld.com; charles brenner > Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: DNA Statistics > > In relation to personal individuality, fingerprints, palmprints, facial > profiles and > dna are mentioned. I would like to add blood groups to the dna > evaluations. > > If dna is available, examination of areas of three chromosomes, #1 ,#4, > and #9, > involving blood group systems Rh, Duffy, MNSs, and ABO would give a lot > of > information about an individual. It would probably exclude over 75% of > suspects. > > Examination of other blood group systems, Kell, Lewis, Kidd, and Diego > gives the possibility of individual identification, without using > probability > figures of one in a billion . Identity could be 100% (except for identical > twins). > > A database would not be necessary, and the use of blood groups would be > a lot more specific than the use of STR's. > > Mary Raidy > > Sent by Medscape Mail: Free Portable E-mail for Professionals on the Move > > http://www.medscape.com > From daemon Sun Mar 24 18:11:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2ONBW203382 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (brain.vifp.monash.edu.au [130.194.125.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2ONBUM03377 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from vifp.monash.edu.au (pc_haem_1 [130.194.124.124]) by brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03522 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:11:16 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3C9E5DD4.30E9BEA2@vifp.monash.edu.au> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:14:28 +1100 From: Bentley Atchison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: DNA identification Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E0F19D6AB5EF35E4085AD777" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3079 --------------E0F19D6AB5EF35E4085AD777 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen Mary Raidy's emails over the years and I am sure there will be the usual arguments. Unfortunately, I have also seen comments similar to Mary's regarding current DNA testing being made by judges in court cases. So these types of views are not that uncommon. As far as I am concerned, the worry is not that people have these views but what has actually led them to seriously misunderstand population genetics and statistics concepts. Perhaps forensic scientists are not explaining their views clearly in the first place. Mary, without prolonging the debate, maybe consider these points: 1. The so called "individual identification" using the markers you are talking about cannot be "100%". Even the most sophisticated DNA testing cannot produce a "100%" figure. 2. See articles particularly by Balding et al to see we are dealing with probabilites of events and not absolute statements. 3. Make up a DNA (or protein) profile. Work out the "random match probability" and then I suggest you do the calculation for the probability of obtaining the DNA (or protein) profile, given you have seen it in a sibling. You may be (but should not be) surprised at the relatively high probability. Of course you will need a database to get the allele frequencies. Bentley Atchison --------------E0F19D6AB5EF35E4085AD777 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen Mary Raidy's emails over the years and I am sure there will
be the usual arguments. Unfortunately, I have also seen comments
similar to Mary's regarding current DNA testing being made by judges in
court cases. So these types of views are not that uncommon.

As far as I am concerned, the worry is not that people have these views
but what has actually led them to seriously misunderstand population
genetics and statistics concepts. Perhaps forensic scientists are not
explaining their views clearly in the first place.

Mary, without prolonging the debate, maybe consider these points:

1. The so called "individual identification" using the markers you are
talking about cannot be "100%".
Even the most sophisticated DNA testing cannot produce a "100%" figure.

2. See articles particularly by Balding et al to see we are dealing with
probabilites of events and not absolute statements.

3. Make up a DNA (or protein) profile. Work out the "random match
probability" and then I suggest you do the calculation for the
probability of obtaining the DNA (or protein) profile, given you have
seen it in a sibling. You may be (but should not be) surprised at the
relatively high probability. Of course you will need a database to get
the allele frequencies.

Bentley Atchison --------------E0F19D6AB5EF35E4085AD777-- From daemon Mon Mar 25 08:59:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2PDx1s12827 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from f04n01.cac.psu.edu (f04s01.cac.psu.edu [128.118.141.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2PDwxM12822 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.203.167.154] (tnt3-167-154.cac.psu.edu [130.203.167.154]) by f04n01.cac.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA75188; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:58:58 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: rpw109@email.psu.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:53:55 -0500 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, ENTOMO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA From: RP Withington Subject: Forensic Entomology Workshop Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1601 Announcing the Tenth Annual Workshop on Forensic Entomology offered by the Entomology Department at The Pennsylvania State University. The workshop is led by Dr. K.C. Kim, Board Certified Forensic Entomologist, and runs from Wednesday, 22 May 2002, to Friday, 24 May 2002. This course is designed for forensic investigators working for law-enforcement agencies, including state police, municipal police, forensic pathologists, and coroners. The course has been approved by the State Board of Coroners and covers the principles of forensic entomology, the ecology of necrophagous arthropod communities, and forensic entomological analysis. For course information, contact: Dr. K.C. Kim The Pennsylvania State University 501 ASI Building University Park, PA 16802-3508 Phone: (814) 865-1895 E-mail: kck@psu.edu For course registration, contact: Ag. Short Courses and Conferences The Pennsylvania State University 306 Ag. Administration Building University Park, PA 16802-2601 Phone: (814) 865-8301 FAX: (814) 865-7050 TTY: (814) 865-1204 Please visit our Web sites at: http://www.ento.psu.edu/ForensicSC/index.htm http://conferences.cas.psu.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert P. Withington III Frost Entomological Museum University Park, PA 16802 U.S.A. Telephone: (814) 863-2865 (w) FAX: (814) 865-3048 (w) E-mail: rpw109@psu.edu From daemon Mon Mar 25 21:33:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2Q2XHN26784 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2Q2XGM26779 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from Gismort@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.97.24ff03a7 (25305) for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:33:12 -0500 (EST) From: Gismort@aol.com Message-ID: <97.24ff03a7.29d137e8@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:33:12 EST Subject: Need help finding an article To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 526 Fellow listers: I am looking for an article (or case) about autopsies being challenged because they were being performed by students. This case went to the NY Court of Appeals. It was around 1997-1998. Supposedly there was an article in the New York Law Review. I have tried several ways to search this, both as a case and an article. But I have had no luck. I would appreciate if anyone can help. Would also appreciate any insight from other states if you know of anything similar in your state. Thank You! From daemon Wed Mar 27 09:24:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2REOmt24904 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f139.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.139]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2REOlM24899 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:24:46 -0800 Received: from 208.172.26.30 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:24:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.172.26.30] From: "David Smith" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Fire Investigation Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:24:44 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2002 14:24:46.0494 (UTC) FILETIME=[2543EBE0:01C1D59B] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 426 Dear List, I have a friend from the UK who has recently moved to the Cincy area. He has a background in engineering and was a firfighter for about 10 years. He is interested in becoming a fire investigator - any ideas? Many thanks Dave Smith _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From daemon Wed Mar 27 16:25:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2RLPOJ03954 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from yoda.planetinternet.be (anvers-smtp.planetinternet.be [195.95.30.152]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2RLPLM03949 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from Gerrit (u212-239-200-110.adsl.pi.be [212.239.200.110]) by yoda.planetinternet.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D63A37504; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:25:19 +0100 (CET) From: "Gerrit Volckeryck" To: "- On-Line Forensic Discussion Group' 'ForensL" , "Forensic-Science@Yahoogroups. Com" Subject: Quetelet Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:25:19 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 512 Dear all, Adolphe Quetelet is often quoted in articles dealing with individualisation ("Nature exhibits an infinite variety of forms" or "Nature never repeats itself"). All those I have read fail to refer to Quetelet's original text. Can anyone help ? Thanks, Gerrit Gerrit Volckeryck commissaris Federale Politie Laboratorium voor Technische en Wetenschappelijke Politie WTC III Simon Bolivarlaan 30 1000 Brussel België tel. +32 2 208 48 48 fax. +32 2 208 48 50 mailto:gerrit.volckeryck@planetinternet.be From daemon Wed Mar 27 17:36:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2RMa8705267 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2RMa6M05262 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from forensic.demon.co.uk ([194.222.14.17]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16qM1U-000IUi-0X; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:36:05 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:31:40 +0000 To: forensic-science@yahoogroups.com Cc: "- On-Line Forensic Discussion Group' 'ForensL" From: Stuart Kind Reply-To: Stuart Kind Subject: Re: [forensic-science] Quetelet References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 S Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1570 In message , Gerrit Volckeryck writes >Dear all, > >Adolphe Quetelet is often quoted in articles dealing with individualisation >("Nature exhibits an infinite variety of forms" or "Nature never repeats >itself"). All those I have read fail to refer to Quetelet's original text. >Can anyone help ? > Quetelet, A. Anthropometrie, ou Mesure des Differentes Facultes de l'Homme (Bruxelles, 1870) >Thanks, > >Gerrit > >Gerrit Volckeryck >commissaris >Federale Politie >Laboratorium voor Technische en Wetenschappelijke Politie >WTC III >Simon Bolivarlaan 30 >1000 Brussel >Belgi >tel. +32 2 208 48 48 >fax. +32 2 208 48 50 >mailto:gerrit.volckeryck@planetinternet.be > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> >FREE COLLEGE MONEY >CLICK HERE to search >600,000 scholarships! >http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/M4xqlB/TM >---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >To subscribe send a blank e-mail to: forensic-science-subscribe@yahoogroups.com >To unsubscribe send a blank e-mail to: forensic-science- >unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/forensic-science >From the home page you can search the list archives. It also includes links to >forensic science sites and allows you to modify your account settings. > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Stuart Kind http://www.forensic.demon.co.uk From daemon Thu Mar 28 13:13:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2SIDXh22698 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from doaisd01001.state.mt.us (doaisd01001.state.mt.us [161.7.1.78]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2SIDWM22693 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by doaisd01001.state.mt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: <12E1430F942ED411BBB000508BADC8B7065C28DA@DOAISD03001> From: "Long, Julie" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Cc: "Schlueter, Scott" Subject: Tox inquiry Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:13:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 231 Inquiry to those labs doing forensic toxicology from our tox section: What is the standard methodology that you are using to detect carbon monoxide in liquid blood? Thanks for your help. Julie Long QA manager Montana Crime Lab From daemon Sat Mar 30 12:54:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2UHsTU26515 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2UHsSM26510 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:54:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from MikeM60232@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.17a.5f7f0db (3842) for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:54:20 -0500 (EST) From: MikeM60232@aol.com Message-ID: <17a.5f7f0db.29d755cc@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:54:20 EST Subject: carbon monoxide To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_17a.5f7f0db.29d755cc_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1793 --part1_17a.5f7f0db.29d755cc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use an Instrument Laboratories IL482 blood gas analyzer, which detects and quantifies Carboxyhemoglobin and reports percent saturation using visible spectrophotometry. We substantiate the CO by a Conway microdiffusion procedure that uses the reduction of palladium to the metal detected by the formation of a palladium mirror. The Conway method has a lower limit of detection of about 5% saturation. The IL482 is subject to interference from some components of decomposed blood, and the blood must be clot free. If you need more information, contact me at: mikem60232@aol.com. Mike McGee, BS, DABFT Assistant Director, Toxicology Laboratory Office of Chief Medical Examiner City of New York --part1_17a.5f7f0db.29d755cc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use an Instrument Laboratories IL482 blood gas analyzer, which detects and quantifies Carboxyhemoglobin and reports percent saturation using visible spectrophotometry. We substantiate the CO by a Conway microdiffusion procedure that uses the reduction of palladium to the metal detected by the formation of a palladium mirror. The Conway method has a lower limit of detection of about 5% saturation. The IL482 is subject to interference from some components of decomposed blood, and the blood must be clot free.

If you need more information, contact me at:
mikem60232@aol.com.

Mike McGee, BS, DABFT
Assistant Director, Toxicology Laboratory
Office of Chief Medical Examiner
City of New York --part1_17a.5f7f0db.29d755cc_boundary-- From daemon Sun Mar 31 13:14:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2VIEt810119 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2VIEqM10114 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from user-2ini8kj.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.34.147] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rjqs-0001ea-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:14:50 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331100751.01f68230@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 10:13:36 -0800 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: John Houde Subject: Lab Exercises for schools In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 539 Fellow listmembers: I have posted the first of what I hope will be several separate, stand alone, laboratory exercises in forensic science on www.calicopress.com. There is no charge for this material. Why, I wouldn't DREAM of promoting a commercial product on this list! ;-) If you get a chance, download it (it's only 243k) and try it out on your unsuspecting students. Then let me know how it worked out. The beauty of electronic publishing is the rapidity with which we can correct errors and update material! Thanks! John Houde