From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 08:37:41 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51CbfBl015736 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51CbfJu015735 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:37:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: Unbonmot@aol.com Message-ID: <194.4003a6d6.2fcf0609@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:37:29 EDT Subject: [forens] Toxicologhy Expert Needed To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10717 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Seeking expert who can testify in court as to the relevance of positive finding of codeine, morphine, methadone, benzodiazepines in urine sample and ability or impairment of ability to drive. Urine sample taken after arrest. Case may go to trial next week and may not! May contact off list. Thank you. Pietrina J. Reda Attorney at Law 294 W. Merrick Rd. Suite 3 Freeport, NY 11520 516-223-1900 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Unbonmot@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 11:00:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51F0EBl019716 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51F0EU1019715 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:00:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.5.61] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: "Forensic Newsgroup" Subject: [forens] Kampstoff Lost Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:30:05 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 15:00:07.0548 (UTC) FILETIME=[998493C0:01C566BA] X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j51F0EBl019717 Dear List, We all know that Sulfur mustard or mustard gas is also known as Kampstoff Lost. It seems like a German name to me. Can somebody tell me why it is called Kampstoff Lost. The same agent is also known as Yprite because it was first used in Ypres in Flanders on 12th July 1917, during the first World War. Do we have some similar etymology for the other name. Thanks and regards Anil Aggrawal --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 11:28:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51FSpBl020650 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51FSpmd020649 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:28:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: <20050601152829.9069.qmail@web25407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:28:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Marco Strehler Subject: Ant: [forens] Kampstoff Lost To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu “Kampfstoff” means “battle substance” in German. "Lost" comes from the family names of the (German) chemists W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf. hope that helps! best regards M. Strehler --- Professor Anil Aggrawal schrieb: > Dear List, > We all know that Sulfur mustard or mustard gas is > also known as Kampstoff Lost. It seems like a German > name to me. > Can somebody tell me why it is called Kampstoff > Lost. The same agent is also known as Yprite because > it was first used in Ypres in Flanders on 12th July > 1917, during the first World War. > > Do we have some similar etymology for the other > name. > Thanks and regards > Anil Aggrawal > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" > ] > > Dr. med. Marco Strehler Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 m.strehler@uni-bonn.de [EndPost by Marco Strehler ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 11:57:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51Fv7Bl021524 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51Fv7ZW021523 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:57:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.1.28] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: References: <20050601152829.9069.qmail@web25407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Kampstoff Lost Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:58 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 15:57:01.0341 (UTC) FILETIME=[8C4C0CD0:01C566C2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;format=flowed;charset="iso-8859-1";reply-type=original Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu This is extremely helpful. Many thanks for this quick info. According to my information Mustard gas or sulfur mustard was first synthesized by Frederick Guthrie in 1860. Can you please tell me what is the contribution of W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf in the development or use of this compound. I have discovered that this compound is sometimes known just by the name "Lost". Any comments on this? Many thanks and Regards Anil Aggrawal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Strehler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:58 PM Subject: Ant: [forens] Kampstoff Lost > "Kampfstoff" means "battle substance" in German. > > "Lost" comes from the family names of the (German) > chemists W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf. > > hope that helps! > > best regards > > M. Strehler > > > --- Professor Anil Aggrawal > schrieb: > >> Dear List, >> We all know that Sulfur mustard or mustard gas is >> also known as Kampstoff Lost. It seems like a German >> name to me. >> Can somebody tell me why it is called Kampstoff >> Lost. The same agent is also known as Yprite because >> it was first used in Ypres in Flanders on 12th July >> 1917, during the first World War. >> >> Do we have some similar etymology for the other >> name. >> Thanks and regards >> Anil Aggrawal >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" >> ] >> >> > > > Dr. med. Marco Strehler > > Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn > Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn > Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 > m.strehler@uni-bonn.de > [EndPost by Marco Strehler ] > [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 12:18:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51GI1Bl023314 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51GI1JM023313 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:18:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: <002c01c566c5$935c0900$2400000a@ppp> From: "Olek" To: Subject: [forens] Drugs and DNA Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:18:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-2" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j51GI1Bl023315 Dear List, Could somebody give me explanation: Can amphetamine or cocaine influence on the structure of DNA or maybe they can react with DNA in vivo and in vitro. Can they change the genetic information in DNA? Thanks and regards. Aleksander Mazurkiewicz --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Olek" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 12:25:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51GPlBl024598 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51GPlFV024597 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:25:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: <20050601162540.88724.qmail@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:25:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Marco Strehler Subject: Ant: Re: [forens] Kampstoff Lost To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu You're welcome! According my knowledge, Lommel and Steinkopf in German are only testing the substance during the first world war for the usefulness as weapon. > I have discovered that this compound is sometimes > known just by the name "Lost". That makes sense, because “Kampfstoff” is not part of the name. Like “toxic gas Yperit” or just “Yperit”. best regards Marco Strehler --- Professor Anil Aggrawal schrieb: > This is extremely helpful. Many thanks for this > quick info. > > According to my information Mustard gas or sulfur > mustard was first > synthesized by Frederick Guthrie in 1860. Can you > please tell me what is the > contribution of W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf in the > development or use of this > compound. > > I have discovered that this compound is sometimes > known just by the name > "Lost". > > Any comments on this? > > Many thanks and Regards > Anil Aggrawal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marco Strehler" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:58 PM > Subject: Ant: [forens] Kampstoff Lost > > > > "Kampfstoff" means "battle substance" in German. > > > > "Lost" comes from the family names of the (German) > > chemists W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf. > > > > hope that helps! > > > > best regards > > > > M. Strehler > > > > > > --- Professor Anil Aggrawal > > schrieb: > > > >> Dear List, > >> We all know that Sulfur mustard or mustard gas is > >> also known as Kampstoff Lost. It seems like a > German > >> name to me. > >> Can somebody tell me why it is called Kampstoff > >> Lost. The same agent is also known as Yprite > because > >> it was first used in Ypres in Flanders on 12th > July > >> 1917, during the first World War. > >> > >> Do we have some similar etymology for the other > >> name. > >> Thanks and regards > >> Anil Aggrawal > >> > >> > >> > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >> multipart/alternative > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/html > >> --- > >> [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" > >> ] > >> > >> > > > > > > Dr. med. Marco Strehler > > > > Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn > > Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn > > Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 > > m.strehler@uni-bonn.de > > [EndPost by Marco Strehler > ] > > > [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" > ] > Dr. med. Marco Strehler Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 m.strehler@uni-bonn.de [EndPost by Marco Strehler ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 12:30:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51GUvBl025213 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51GUvEp025212 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:30:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.1.28] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: References: <20050601162540.88724.qmail@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Re: [forens] Kampstoff Lost Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:00:51 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 16:30:51.0326 (UTC) FILETIME=[46432DE0:01C566C7] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;format=flowed;charset="iso-8859-1";reply-type=original Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Strehler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:55 PM Subject: Ant: Re: [forens] Kampstoff Lost > You're welcome! > > According my knowledge, Lommel and Steinkopf in German > are only testing the substance during the first world > war for the usefulness as weapon. > >> I have discovered that this compound is sometimes >> known just by the name "Lost". > > That makes sense, because "Kampfstoff" is not part of > the name. Like "toxic gas Yperit" or just "Yperit". > > best regards > > Marco Strehler > > > > --- Professor Anil Aggrawal > schrieb: > >> This is extremely helpful. Many thanks for this >> quick info. >> >> According to my information Mustard gas or sulfur >> mustard was first >> synthesized by Frederick Guthrie in 1860. Can you >> please tell me what is the >> contribution of W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf in the >> development or use of this >> compound. >> >> I have discovered that this compound is sometimes >> known just by the name >> "Lost". >> >> Any comments on this? >> >> Many thanks and Regards >> Anil Aggrawal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Marco Strehler" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:58 PM >> Subject: Ant: [forens] Kampstoff Lost >> >> >> > "Kampfstoff" means "battle substance" in German. >> > >> > "Lost" comes from the family names of the (German) >> > chemists W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf. >> > >> > hope that helps! >> > >> > best regards >> > >> > M. Strehler >> > >> > >> > --- Professor Anil Aggrawal >> > schrieb: >> > >> >> Dear List, >> >> We all know that Sulfur mustard or mustard gas is >> >> also known as Kampstoff Lost. It seems like a >> German >> >> name to me. >> >> Can somebody tell me why it is called Kampstoff >> >> Lost. The same agent is also known as Yprite >> because >> >> it was first used in Ypres in Flanders on 12th >> July >> >> 1917, during the first World War. >> >> >> >> Do we have some similar etymology for the other >> >> name. >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> Anil Aggrawal >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> >> multipart/alternative >> >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> >> text/html >> >> --- >> >> [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" >> >> ] >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Dr. med. Marco Strehler >> > >> > Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn >> > Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn >> > Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 >> > m.strehler@uni-bonn.de >> > [EndPost by Marco Strehler >> ] >> > >> [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" >> ] >> > > > Dr. med. Marco Strehler > > Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn > Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn > Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 > m.strehler@uni-bonn.de > [EndPost by Marco Strehler ] > [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 12:31:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51GVPBl025369 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j51GVPPd025367 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:31:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.1.28] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: References: <20050601162540.88724.qmail@web25404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Re: [forens] Kampstoff Lost Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:01:14 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 16:31:14.0209 (UTC) FILETIME=[53E6D910:01C566C7] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;format=flowed;charset="iso-8859-1";reply-type=original Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Many thanks for this info. Regards Anil Aggrawal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Strehler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:55 PM Subject: Ant: Re: [forens] Kampstoff Lost > You're welcome! > > According my knowledge, Lommel and Steinkopf in German > are only testing the substance during the first world > war for the usefulness as weapon. > >> I have discovered that this compound is sometimes >> known just by the name "Lost". > > That makes sense, because "Kampfstoff" is not part of > the name. Like "toxic gas Yperit" or just "Yperit". > > best regards > > Marco Strehler > > > > --- Professor Anil Aggrawal > schrieb: > >> This is extremely helpful. Many thanks for this >> quick info. >> >> According to my information Mustard gas or sulfur >> mustard was first >> synthesized by Frederick Guthrie in 1860. Can you >> please tell me what is the >> contribution of W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf in the >> development or use of this >> compound. >> >> I have discovered that this compound is sometimes >> known just by the name >> "Lost". >> >> Any comments on this? >> >> Many thanks and Regards >> Anil Aggrawal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Marco Strehler" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:58 PM >> Subject: Ant: [forens] Kampstoff Lost >> >> >> > "Kampfstoff" means "battle substance" in German. >> > >> > "Lost" comes from the family names of the (German) >> > chemists W. Lommel and W. Steinkopf. >> > >> > hope that helps! >> > >> > best regards >> > >> > M. Strehler >> > >> > >> > --- Professor Anil Aggrawal >> > schrieb: >> > >> >> Dear List, >> >> We all know that Sulfur mustard or mustard gas is >> >> also known as Kampstoff Lost. It seems like a >> German >> >> name to me. >> >> Can somebody tell me why it is called Kampstoff >> >> Lost. The same agent is also known as Yprite >> because >> >> it was first used in Ypres in Flanders on 12th >> July >> >> 1917, during the first World War. >> >> >> >> Do we have some similar etymology for the other >> >> name. >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> Anil Aggrawal >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> >> multipart/alternative >> >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> >> text/html >> >> --- >> >> [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" >> >> ] >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Dr. med. Marco Strehler >> > >> > Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn >> > Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn >> > Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 >> > m.strehler@uni-bonn.de >> > [EndPost by Marco Strehler >> ] >> > >> [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" >> ] >> > > > Dr. med. Marco Strehler > > Institut f. Rechtsmedizin, Uni Bonn > Stiftsplatz 12, D-53111 Bonn > Tel: +49 228 / 72 21 83 67 > m.strehler@uni-bonn.de > [EndPost by Marco Strehler ] > [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 1 21:29:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j521TPBl005946 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j521TPvS005945 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:29:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: "Forens-L" Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:29:24 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations — the first aimed at HPD's drug unit — could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 © HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" — concocting results without conducting analyses — may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed — including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report — whom he would not name — continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 2 13:48:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j52Hm2cW017007 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j52Hm2lb017006 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:48:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: MPhill9929@aol.com Message-ID: <60.56c73a52.2fd0a043@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:47:47 EDT Subject: [forens] Submerged Vehicle Fingerprint Recovery Experiment To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu PSDiver Monthly 841 S. Main Street Lumberton, Texas 77657 409-755-1110 409-658-7247 (cell) Subject: Submerged Vehicle Fingerprint Recovery Experiment To All Interested - We have finalized the draft for our fingerprint experiment and are now confirming our participants. Those of you who have already contacted us should receive a separate email. If you do not, you must let me know. We will be conducting experiments in the recovery processes of latent fingerprints on automobile surfaces that have been submerged over periods of time. Each test will include wet processing using a small particle reagent as well as a drying time and standard powders. SPR will be provided. We do not know how many participants we will have or if we will limit the number. There will be a limited time investment for each test. The tests will be conducted a minimum 5 times over a 6 month period. There will be a need for auto parts: door panes, mirrors etc. Salvage yard quality will work. No d estructive testing will be conducted. A natural local body of water will be required. Participation with a local fire or law enforcement dive team is encouraged as well. If you are interested in participating in this project, please contact me at _mphill9929@aol.com_ (mailto:mphill9929@aol.com) . You will need to include all contact information for yourself as well as your agency or lab. The results of the project will be shared. I look forward to hearing from you, Mark Phillips Editor / Publisher PSDiver Monthly _www.psdivermonthly.com_ (http://www.psdivermonthly.com/) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif --- [EndPost by MPhill9929@aol.com] From forens-owner Thu Jun 2 20:03:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5303IcW022125 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5303IwD022124 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:03:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:03:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5303HcW022119 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 © HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 2 20:33:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j530X8cW022843 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j530X8Dm022842 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:33:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:33:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dave; Looks like they were caught back in 2001 by honest criminalists working alongside them, and the supervisors did nothing. The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:03 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 © HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 2 23:21:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j533L3cW024705 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j533L34t024704 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:21:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: From: "Donnelly, Andrew (DAIS)" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: [forens] DNA differential extractions Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:50:44 +0930 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j533L3cW024699 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Is anyone using the Promega 'Differex' system for their differential extractions? If so, are you happy with it? Thanks in anticipation, Andrew Donnelly, PhD Biology Forensic Science Centre South Australia   [EndPost by "Donnelly, Andrew (DAIS)" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 01:20:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j535KkcW026276 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j535KkJN026275 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:20:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "forensicfire" To: "Forens" Subject: [forens] Removal of carbon and plastics from electric components Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:20:24 +1200 Message-ID: <001501c567fb$f59bae40$0401010a@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j535KlcW026277 Dear Group I am looking for information or good ideas on cleaning up burnt debris on electric components after a fire. When there is something like a burnt plugboard (for example) that is suspected of causing a fire, but it is covered in carbon, carbonaceous material or burnt plastics etc - What method have people used to clean the material off without destroying potential evidence such as heat variances in the copper bars, micro-arcing, arc-tracking etc. I have used dilute HCl to clean off oxides and caked burnt coatings in the past, but I was wondering what experience or knowledge others might have on this subject. Does anyone have specific methods that they have found has worked well for them to remove carbon specifically or plastics specifically. Look forward to hearing your responses. Regards Marnix Marnix Kelderman Forensic Scientist / Fire Investigator Forensic & Fire Investigation Ltd P.O. Box 163116, Lynfield, Auckland, New Zealand Ph: 021-882 228 (09-625 0006) Fax: 09-625 0057 Email: Marnix@ForensicFire.co.nz This e-mail (including any attachments) is only intended to be read by the named recipient(s). It may contain information which is confidential, proprietary or the subject of legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you must delete this e-mail (and attachments) and may not use any information contained in it. Legal privilege is not waived because you have read this e-mail. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "forensicfire" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 04:39:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j538d8cW028068 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 04:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j538d8re028067 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 04:39:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: "Forens-L" Subject: [forens] HPD admits it failed to review suspect lab work Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:39:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu List Members; In this article, the analysts who dry-labbed their results are named. Bent June 1, 2005, 11:41PM HPD admits it failed to review suspect lab work Report alleges hundreds of cases were ignored for 'reasons unknown' By STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/crimelab/3207774 Despite knowing about the suspect work of a crime-laboratory analyst in at least two drug cases, the Houston Police Department failed to conduct a review of hundreds of other cases handled by the employee because of "reasons unknown," according to a written statement released by department officials Wednesday. The allegations of fabricated work by the analyst came to light Tuesday in a report issued by an independent investigator hired to probe widespread problems in the HPD crime lab. Among other things, the report accused two analysts in the crime lab's controlled substances division of "drylabbing," or concocting results, in two cases each without conducting tests on evidence. The work was conducted between 1998 and 2000 during the tenure of former Chief C.O. Bradford. In all four cases, supervisors discovered the problems before the analyses were used in court. In the statement released Wednesday, HPD Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo said the department had reviewed 574 cases processed by former analyst James E. Price, who has since resigned. But they could not explain why no such review had been conducted in connection with the work of analyst Vipul H. Patel — who was suspended for three days but continues to work in the crime lab. Patel's work between 1999 and 2003 will soon also come under scrutiny. The Houston Chronicle was unable to contact Price or Patel on Wednesday. "The review will look to see if proper processing and analyses were conducted in accordance with established procedures," said Montalvo. Whether the department or special investigator Michael Bromwich will review Patel's work is unclear, a department spokesman said. A former Justice Department inspector general, Bromwich was hired earlier this year to investigate the practices and work of the troubled crime lab. Those troubles began in December 2002 after an outside audit found numerous problems at the department's DNA lab, which remains shuttered. Since then, problems have surfaced in the lab's toxicology, ballistics and serology divisions. On Tuesday, the controlled substances division was added to that list and potentially could be the most troublesome as it is responsible for 75 percent of the work conducted at the crime lab. Shoddy or criminal? In his report, Bromwich described drylabbing as "the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory." On Wednesday, Bromwich confirmed that, at the time the alleged drylabbing by Price was discovered, the department's findings were forwarded to the Harris County District Attorney's Office for possible prosecution. Two prosecutors declined to pursue the cases. "I think it was extremely ill-advised to keep people who had engaged in such fraudulent activity in roles in the crime lab where they continued to perform scientific analysis," said the investigator. Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal said Wednesday that, after reviewing the case files, he is satisfied with the decision of the two prosecutors not to take the analysts to court. He said that, in one of the cases, Price apparently violated analytical procedure by comparing a drug to its depiction in a pharmaceutical reference book. "I'm sure he just looked at them and went by the scorings on the pills, as opposed to actually doing the tests," said Rosenthal, who took over the office in 2001. In the second case, Rosenthal characterized the work as sloppy rather than criminal. "Apparently they were both handled properly," Rosenthal said about the investigations by the DA's office. Tampering allegations Other legal observers, however, are not as confident — especially when it comes to Patel's work. In cases where the analyst's reports contend that tests had been performed when, in fact, none had, criminal charges could have possibly been filed, according to a former appellate court justice. Attorney Murry Cohen, formerly a justice on the 1st Court of Appeals, says he thinks that actions of the two analysts may have constituted tampering with a governmental record. "I don't know why you couldn't argue that, why a jury could not find that, and court could not hold that that's sufficient (for a conviction)," Cohen said. He also noted that the statute of limitations on the offense has expired, so no charges in those cases can be filed. Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association, said the problems found in the controlled substances division represent the first time the district attorney's office has been found to have had prior knowledge of problems at that lab. "There have been complaints for a long time that the (crime lab) investigation conducted by the district attorney's office was not a fair and impartial investigation," Schneider said. "And this confirms it." Bromwich said he will explore whether defense counsels in other cases were advised of the allegations brought against the analysts. "Such information would pretty plainly be impeachment material," he said. Bromwich also said his team will continue to explore to what extent the DNA lab was affected during the six years it went without a supervisor. "We don't yet know in how many cases the analysis was adversely affected, and to what degree," he said. steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 08:52:45 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j53CqjcW000819 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j53CqjVS000818 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:52:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] DNA differential extractions Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:52:30 -0500 Message-Id: <57472660FB783A47BD72376AF08F08B802395F33@ts-dps-mail-01.dps.state.mn.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] DNA differential extractions Thread-Index: AcVn65kwwSLg2sHuQ7W2Zezb3DzWUwATuBUQ From: "Ciecko, Anne" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j53CqicW000813 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Our lab is currently testing Differex. I'm not one of the scientists currently using it, but based on what I've heard about it so far, we'll probably never use it for casework. Anne Ciecko Forensic Scientist MN Bureau of Criminal Apprehension -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Donnelly, Andrew (DAIS) Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:21 PM To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: [forens] DNA differential extractions Is anyone using the Promega 'Differex' system for their differential extractions? If so, are you happy with it? Thanks in anticipation, Andrew Donnelly, PhD Biology Forensic Science Centre South Australia   [EndPost by "Donnelly, Andrew (DAIS)" ] [EndPost by "Ciecko, Anne" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 10:53:12 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j53ErCcW002821 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j53ErCid002820 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:53:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:52:17 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Mime-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j53ErCcW002822 Brent, Employees who work in public laboratories usually are under some sort of civil service system and more often than not are members of unions or some other form of collective bargaining. Hence they are afforded protections to some degree greater than any criminal defendant. They have a right to counsel and/or representation by union. Often, there is a process that the accused employee has to go through before the idea of firing can even occur. In other words, they are a part of a system that protects their rights. They even have another option, the right of appeal. That process can take a long time and can be costly not only to the agency that they work for but to the memberships of associations or unions to which they belong. So you see the same system that protects the rights of the accused in criminal matters also protects the accused in civil service matters. Good or bad, it is the system we have and the one we have agreed to uphold and defend. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist, Major Crimes Unit Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division 1300 18th Street, 4th Floor Bakersfield, CA 93301 Office Phone: (661) 868-5659 Office FAX: (661) 868-5675 Cellular Phone: (661) 979-5548 e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us >>> bturvey@corpus-delicti.com 6/2/2005 5:33:03 PM >>> Dave; Looks like they were caught back in 2001 by honest criminalists working alongside them, and the supervisors did nothing. The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:03 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 © HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Greg Laskowski TEL;WORK:868-5659 ORG:District Attorney;District Attorney - Forensic Science Division TEL;PREF;FAX:868-5675 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:GLaskows.DACRIMPO.DADOMAIN N:Laskowski;Greg TITLE:Supervising Criminalist END:VCARD --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- [EndPost by "Greg Laskowski" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 11:02:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j53F21cW003506 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j53F21us003505 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:02:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: LamarM@aol.com Message-ID: <1e3.3d24edd5.2fd1cade@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:01:50 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 6/3/2005 10:54:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, glaskows@co.kern.ca.us writes: The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent Brent - With all due respect, at least there is a process in place to deal with these problems in most public agencies as opposed to the lack of a process in most private practices. Regards, Lamar Miller Hendersonville, NC --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LamarM@aol.com] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 13:11:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j53HBccW005973 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j53HBcuj005972 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:11:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:13:39 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Greg; Thanks for posting this reminder of the process. The reality is that it is almost impossible to actually fire someone from a civil service job, no matter how egregious the conduct, unless they are charged with a crime. Even then, if they are not convicted and are fired prematurely, the municipality can be sued for wrongful termination. This is as it should be, in my view. I would not presume to have a problem with how lab employees may be protected when the policies and procedures of a given lab system in place are realistically behind them - I have a problem with pushing employees out the door or making them feel the need to remain silent or retire when they have reported misconduct. This kind of thing may appear to many if not most as though public labs are more interested in hiding their problems rather than rewarding those seeking to ensure the integrity of the science at the lab. That sentiment was the intent of my post. As indicated at the beginning of this response, there is a solution to the problem here: the prosecutor, who is sworn to uphold justice and prosecute the guilty, can charge those working in public crime labs when they break criminal statutes. Official misconduct, fraud, tampering with evidence, perjury, altering public records, obstruction of justice, etc... The list of selectively enforced potential charges goes on and on. So I agree with you, but I also agree that there is a solution. The only real question with fraudulent scientists at public crime labs is why they are not charged with criminal violations as would anyone else that fell squarely in the sights of a prosecutor during a criminal case. The answer is, I'm afraid, all too obvious. Brent Brent E. Turvey, MS Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Greg Laskowski Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 5:52 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Brent, Employees who work in public laboratories usually are under some sort of civil service system and more often than not are members of unions or some other form of collective bargaining. Hence they are afforded protections to some degree greater than any criminal defendant. They have a right to counsel and/or representation by union. Often, there is a process that the accused employee has to go through before the idea of firing can even occur. In other words, they are a part of a system that protects their rights. They even have another option, the right of appeal. That process can take a long time and can be costly not only to the agency that they work for but to the memberships of associations or unions to which they belong. So you see the same system that protects the rights of the accused in criminal matters also protects the accused in civil service matters. Good or bad, it is the system we have and the one we have agreed to uphold and defend. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist, Major Crimes Unit Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division 1300 18th Street, 4th Floor Bakersfield, CA 93301 Office Phone: (661) 868-5659 Office FAX: (661) 868-5675 Cellular Phone: (661) 979-5548 e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us >>> bturvey@corpus-delicti.com 6/2/2005 5:33:03 PM >>> Dave; Looks like they were caught back in 2001 by honest criminalists working alongside them, and the supervisors did nothing. The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:03 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 © HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Greg Laskowski TEL;WORK:868-5659 ORG:District Attorney;District Attorney - Forensic Science Division TEL;PREF;FAX:868-5675 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:GLaskows.DACRIMPO.DADOMAIN N:Laskowski;Greg TITLE:Supervising Criminalist END:VCARD --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- [EndPost by "Greg Laskowski" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 13:32:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j53HWicW006686 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j53HWiOr006685 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:32:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:35:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <1e3.3d24edd5.2fd1cade@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lamar; I appreciate your note, and understand the process. Greg did an excellent job of detailing some of that process for the uninitiated. Those of us who are initiated, we understand that criminal charges are often conspicuously absent in these cases. Those engaged in criminal activity at crime labs are allowed to resign or are moved to other duties when fraud is uncovered. Investigations and revelations must come from the outside, with reporting by the media or independent investigations by various bodies. This is the part where we, the forensic science community, erode our own credibility across the board. So yes the administrative process is there but the criminal process, again, is conspicuously absent. These are necessarily two separate investigations. I know that in some states the results of administrative investigations of municipal employees cannot be disclosed to law enforcement in totality - law enforcement must perform their own investigation and gather their own evidence. In a world where Cyril Wecht is being pounded into the dust back in PA for having some aides gas up his car, by an angry DA who doesn't like coronial inquests and an FBI overly eager to be "the FBI", I think these questions are not wholly without merit. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of LamarM@aol.com Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:02 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message In a message dated 6/3/2005 10:54:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, glaskows@co.kern.ca.us writes: The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent Brent - With all due respect, at least there is a process in place to deal with these problems in most public agencies as opposed to the lack of a process in most private practices. Regards, Lamar Miller Hendersonville, NC --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LamarM@aol.com] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 19:36:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j53Na3cW010565 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j53Na3bc010564 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:36:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:41:43 -0400 Keywords: Discussion lists Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000e01c56895$cc793b00$8d00a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2005 23:36:03.0867 (UTC) FILETIME=[01BF7EB0:01C56895] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j53Na2cW010559 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Assuming the below report is accurate, I find it beyond belief that any lab or law enforcement management would even consider retaining someone who willfully falsified an analysis and report (and by implication, would have been willing to perjure himself on the stand if called to testify). What kind of management tolerates such willful dishonesty and fraud? A few days suspension for this kind of egregious behavior is like giving 100 hours of community service as punishment for armed robbery or arson of an occupied dwelling. This isn't a question of simple incompetence or carelessness (both of which CAN and probably should be remedied by retraining and better supervision) - this is a question of base dishonesty, moral turpitude of the absolute worst kind. It also constitutes several criminal acts, and it cannot _ever_ be (nor should it ever have been) excused. This incident is every bit as outrageous and reprehensible as the Fred Zane scandal - absolutely appalling!! Having said all that, I still have to correct you, Brent. No, it is NOT a "sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs," but rather only on the state of affairs in THOSE PARTICULAR crime labs that you refer to. I'll thank you not to paint the rest of us with the same brush in a sweeping and unjustified generalization. If any such malfeasance ever happened in MY lab, the whistle blower would be commended and the "dry-labber" would be fired in a heartbeat, and then PROSECUTED to the full extent of the law - no excuses, no sympathy, no "retraining," and no second chances. Everyone of course has a right to due process and appeal, that is as it should be (being charged doesn't mean being guilty), but if the charges were proven there would be no doubt of the outcome. But then, we don't have unions here so perhaps it would be much less of a challenge for us to mete out proper sanctions and make them stick. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:33 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Dave; Looks like they were caught back in 2001 by honest criminalists working alongside them, and the supervisors did nothing. The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:03 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 C HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 20:10:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j540AvcW011253 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j540Av4Z011252 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:10:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:10:48 -0800 Keywords: Discussion lists Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000e01c56895$cc793b00$8d00a8c0@IRRCL.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Bob; It was not my intent to paint everyone that works at a public lab with the broad brush of malfeasance. For this I apologize. I have a great deal of respect for not only yourself, whose thoughts and ruminations I both learn from and admire, but for the majority of bench criminalists working in public labs. Having said this, the list of crime labs that have had scandals of this or similar nature, in recent years, has grown far too long. The community as a whole is in a serious crisis as a result. The more digging that occurs the more that gets dug up. The largest problems out there as I see it are 1) ignorance of science and forensic science, 2) lack of oversight and supervision, & 3) associations of crime labs with police and prosecutorial agencies. Each item perpetuates the other and runs rivers to other problems. It needs fixing, but we can't even talk about it without our law enforcement counterparts picking our sides for us for fear of losing political providence. Image comes first, science second in such circumstances. When science chooses a side other than itself in any conflict or dispute, it is no longer science but advocacy. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Parsons Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:42 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Assuming the below report is accurate, I find it beyond belief that any lab or law enforcement management would even consider retaining someone who willfully falsified an analysis and report (and by implication, would have been willing to perjure himself on the stand if called to testify). What kind of management tolerates such willful dishonesty and fraud? A few days suspension for this kind of egregious behavior is like giving 100 hours of community service as punishment for armed robbery or arson of an occupied dwelling. This isn't a question of simple incompetence or carelessness (both of which CAN and probably should be remedied by retraining and better supervision) - this is a question of base dishonesty, moral turpitude of the absolute worst kind. It also constitutes several criminal acts, and it cannot _ever_ be (nor should it ever have been) excused. This incident is every bit as outrageous and reprehensible as the Fred Zane scandal - absolutely appalling!! Having said all that, I still have to correct you, Brent. No, it is NOT a "sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs," but rather only on the state of affairs in THOSE PARTICULAR crime labs that you refer to. I'll thank you not to paint the rest of us with the same brush in a sweeping and unjustified generalization. If any such malfeasance ever happened in MY lab, the whistle blower would be commended and the "dry-labber" would be fired in a heartbeat, and then PROSECUTED to the full extent of the law - no excuses, no sympathy, no "retraining," and no second chances. Everyone of course has a right to due process and appeal, that is as it should be (being charged doesn't mean being guilty), but if the charges were proven there would be no doubt of the outcome. But then, we don't have unions here so perhaps it would be much less of a challenge for us to mete out proper sanctions and make them stick. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:33 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Dave; Looks like they were caught back in 2001 by honest criminalists working alongside them, and the supervisors did nothing. The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:03 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 C HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 3 21:29:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j541T2cW012178 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j541T2Fa012177 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:29:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=qGosLhaRaEkIhubV+LGg2SaUFIsO5AVE7ru0ICOulk1rz1b098yvvUISiw+VnYqaSDRfy7Y8sdrsqJePO35FQu3O7gRH0InAZ9hXBBmZPkQMvQulc9e3wxyxCxwO+1P4tvNwjSlTV2XSMFYw2shr2d2wdgmBosybHMTPBk9pKxo= ; Message-ID: <20050604012857.84541.qmail@web40805.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:28:57 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <000e01c56895$cc793b00$8d00a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu You go, Bob! The thing I don't get is why people go to the trouble to fake results. It seems it is actually easier to just do the analysis than it is to pretend to do the analysis and cover it up. Unless of course, the "dry labbers" are motivated by a desire to "help the police" rather than "analyze the evidence." IMHO, when some idiot sells a bag of white stuff to a narc, there does not need to be an analysis of the white stuff unless and until the perp says that the stuff was really not what he said it was. We waste so much time and treasure analyzing drug evidence, when there is no reason to doubt what it is. I know the law usually requires that we waste the resources to make the identification, but that does not make it any less of a waste. But hey, we have more folks in prison per capita than any nation in history, so we're winning the war on drugs, right? Robert Parsons wrote: Assuming the below report is accurate, I find it beyond belief that any lab or law enforcement management would even consider retaining someone who willfully falsified an analysis and report (and by implication, would have been willing to perjure himself on the stand if called to testify). What kind of management tolerates such willful dishonesty and fraud? A few days suspension for this kind of egregious behavior is like giving 100 hours of community service as punishment for armed robbery or arson of an occupied dwelling. This isn't a question of simple incompetence or carelessness (both of which CAN and probably should be remedied by retraining and better supervision) - this is a question of base dishonesty, moral turpitude of the absolute worst kind. It also constitutes several criminal acts, and it cannot _ever_ be (nor should it ever have been) excused. This incident is every bit as outrageous and reprehensible as the Fred Zane scandal - absolutely appalling!! Having said all that, I still have to correct you, Brent. No, it is NOT a "sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs," but rather only on the state of affairs in THOSE PARTICULAR crime labs that you refer to. I'll thank you not to paint the rest of us with the same brush in a sweeping and unjustified generalization. If any such malfeasance ever happened in MY lab, the whistle blower would be commended and the "dry-labber" would be fired in a heartbeat, and then PROSECUTED to the full extent of the law - no excuses, no sympathy, no "retraining," and no second chances. Everyone of course has a right to due process and appeal, that is as it should be (being charged doesn't mean being guilty), but if the charges were proven there would be no doubt of the outcome. But then, we don't have unions here so perhaps it would be much less of a challenge for us to mete out proper sanctions and make them stick. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:33 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Dave; Looks like they were caught back in 2001 by honest criminalists working alongside them, and the supervisors did nothing. The real question, as a colleague put it to me today, is what does it take get fired from a crime lab. Then we were reminded of the people who had been fired in the past for reporting wrongdoing. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in public crime labs. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:03 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Please respond to forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: RE: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:23:02 -0600 From: "Sincerbeaux, Dave" My question is how were they caught? What did the peer reviewer see that raised suspicions? As any drug analyst knows it would be very easy to fake data if you were so inclined. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Brent E. Turvey, MS Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:29 PM To: Forens-L Subject: [forens] FW: Crime lab faked results in 4 cases Members; This is not good... June 1, 2005, 7:50PM Crime lab faked results in 4 cases, probe finds The allegations - the first aimed at HPD's drug unit - could be the harshest yet By ROMA KHANNA and STEVE MCVICKER Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3206160 C HoustonChronicle.com Houston Police Department crime lab analysts fabricated findings in at least four drug cases, an independent investigator reported Tuesday, including one in which a scientist performed no tests before issuing conclusions that supported a police officer's suspicions. The allegations of so-called "drylabbing" - concocting results without conducting analyses - may be among the most serious leveled thus far in the more than two years since the crime lab came under scrutiny. The report, released Tuesday, also casts doubt, for the first time, on the laboratory's largest division, controlled substances, which tests substances suspected of being drugs and performs about 75 percent of HPD's forensics work. The latest problems bring to five the number of crime lab disciplines where errors have been exposed - including DNA, toxicology, ballistics and the blood-typing science of serology. " 'Drylabbing' is the most egregious form of scientific misconduct that can occur in a forensic laboratory," Michael Bromwich, a former U.S. Justice Department official leading an investigation of the HPD lab, wrote in the report. "In the crime lab, the instances of drylabbing took the form of controlled substances analysts creating false documentation intended to reflect analytical procedures that were never performed." Investigators reported finding four instances between 1998 and 2000 in which two analysts, whom they do not name, issued findings for tests they never conducted. In each case, the analysts' supervisors caught the misrepresentations before the evidence could be introduced in court. "We can't say for certain that we have found every instance, but my confidence level is boosted by what seems to have been the competence of first-level supervisors," Bromwich said Tuesday. Still working at lab One analyst resigned in March 2001, but the other still works at the crime lab. Police internal investigators recommended disciplinary action in each case, but supervisors in the controlled substances division were disappointed when neither analyst received more than a four-day suspension, Bromwich reported. "At least one of the supervisors believed strongly that both analysts should have been terminated immediately once the frauds were identified," he wrote. Department spokesman Lt. Robert Manzo acknowledged that one of the workers cited in the report - whom he would not name - continues to work in the lab. The employee has been retrained and his work is closely monitored, Manzo said. "I can fully understand the concern that a person would have," Manzo added. "But I'm also aware of the fact that not all cases of misconduct should result in the termination of that employee." HPD's attempts to fire or issue lengthy suspensions for analysts in the DNA division also have been overturned on appeal. One analyst, who performed tests that sent an innocent man to prison for more than four years for rape, was reinstated after the police chief recommended she be fired. The controlled-substances analyst who fabricated conclusions to support an investigating officer's theory identified tablets from a 1998 case as a date-rape drug, of which possession is a felony, Bromwich's team reported. A supervisor discovered the pills actually were another drug, of which possession is a misdemeanor. "The supervisor determined that the analyst never tested the tablets recovered from the defendant but, rather, tested a standard sample of (the date rape drug) and reported those results ... as though the tests related to the tablets possessed by the defendant," the report says. The defendant's charge was reduced. Two years later, the same analyst printed out a co-worker's test results from another case and put them in his own case file, the report states. The analyst resigned after a supervisor discovered the misconduct and the police chief considered termination. The second analyst, who remains at the crime lab, was accused of falsifying results in two 1999 cases. In one, the analyst identified tablets as a controlled substance without performing tests and falsified data to support the incorrect conclusion, according to the report. The analyst received a written reprimand in that instance. In the second case, the analyst tested only one of two tablets from an evidence sample and used the data from the first tablet for the second. The analyst was suspended for three days. The revelations raise questions about numerous cases handled by the crime lab's busiest division, said Stanley Schneider, past president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association. "This is incredible," said Schneider. "How do you go back and prove someone is innocent? The people whose cases were tested by those lab workers: Are they innocent?" Quality-control debate District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal pointed out that the misconduct was caught before the cases went to trial. Police Chief Harold Hurtt was unavailable for comment Tuesday, but Executive Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo noted that the drug-testing problems are years old. "There are new checks and balances in place, as well as quality control measures," she said through a spokesman. The investigation team's report also highlights problems that led to the shuttering of the crime lab's DNA division, which has been closed since December 2002. The report cited the absence of strong leadership and quality-control procedures as major reasons for DNA lab problems. Analysts in the crime lab complained to then-Police Chief C.O. Bradford about the lack of supervision as early as 1999, according to documents obtained by the Houston Chronicle in June 2003. Bromwich and his team are expected to complete the first stage of their investigation by the end of June. roma.khanna@chron.com steve.mcvicker@chron.com Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by John Lentini ] From forens-owner Sun Jun 5 21:14:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j561EmcW002611 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j561EmK6002610 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f In-Reply-To: <001501c567fb$f59bae40$0401010a@office> References: <001501c567fb$f59bae40$0401010a@office> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-Id: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= Subject: Re: [forens] Removal of carbon and plastics from electric components Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:14:43 -0400 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset=MACINTOSH;delsp=yes;format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j561EmcW002612 Dear Marnix, I would try one of the following (or a combination): - Heat the sample to about 500úC. This would pyrolyze the remainder of organic compounds you have without jeopardizing the metal evidence. You can try even a little bit higher, but if you reach around 600úC, you have the risk of melting some aluminum or other alloys. - Use a ultrasonic bath to try to separate the carbonaceous material from the metals. You might want to use different solvents in the bath, and for long period of time. - Go with a knife and cut small pieces at a time. I wouldn't use any acid, as it will attack the metal and will modify your evidence of electrical or thermal activity. Hope this helps, Regards, Eric On Jun 3, 2005, at 1:20, forensicfire wrote: > Dear Group > > > > I am looking for information or good ideas on cleaning up burnt > debris on > electric components after a fire. When there is something like a > burnt > plugboard (for example) that is suspected of causing a fire, but it is > covered in carbon, carbonaceous material or burnt plastics etc - > What method > have people used to clean the material off without destroying > potential > evidence such as heat variances in the copper bars, micro-arcing, > arc-tracking etc. > > > > I have used dilute HCl to clean off oxides and caked burnt coatings > in the > past, but I was wondering what experience or knowledge others might > have on > this subject. > > > > Does anyone have specific methods that they have found has worked > well for > them to remove carbon specifically or plastics specifically. > > > > Look forward to hearing your responses. > > > > Regards > > > > Marnix > > > > Marnix Kelderman > > Forensic Scientist / Fire Investigator > > Forensic & Fire Investigation Ltd > > P.O. Box 163116, Lynfield, Auckland, New Zealand > > Ph: 021-882 228 (09-625 0006) > > Fax: 09-625 0057 > > Email: Marnix@ForensicFire.co.nz > > > > This e-mail (including any attachments) is only intended to be read > by the > named recipient(s). It may contain information which is confidential, > proprietary or the subject of legal privilege. If you are not the > intended > recipient you must delete this e-mail (and attachments) and may not > use any > information contained in it. Legal privilege is not waived because > you have > read this e-mail. > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "forensicfire" ] > > -------------------------------------- Eric Stauffer, MS, F-ABC, CFEI Senior Forensic Scientist MME Forensic Services 1039 Industrial Court Suwanee, GA 30024 USA Office + 1 (678) 730 2000 Cell + 1 (404) 663 3611 Fax + 1 (678) 482 9677 Email estauffer@mmelab.com Web http://www.mmelab.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by From forens-owner Tue Jun 7 07:55:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j57BticW024587 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j57BtiGg024586 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:55:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=n2yuXSO0IDTRcpOeZpIi51rxbSxoH96g3lr4P9vs22iiPzMjHrcwbjcpjxeTe8nmcAiDvx9A4Q9X6OfMFHwVHf0Q3/m62+4w/2REZoE5u83sHxaSudgePxmZOut+M5tnXtV4BsiOODwb5irPwMEulyFfLtt7xJ+VcKL+xOXouGI= ; Message-ID: <20050607115533.5536.qmail@web40805.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:55:32 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Subject: [forens] Chicago Tribune writers hold forth on the "CSI effect" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <20050604012857.84541.qmail@web40805.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu The fault lies not in the (TV) stars, but in ourselves...... Copyright 2005 Chicago Tribune Company Chicago Tribune June 5, 2005 Sunday Chicago Final Edition SECTION: PERSPECTIVE ; ZONE C; Pg. 3 Fact or fiction?; The jury is still out on the CSI effect By Flynn McRoberts, Steve Mills and Maurice Possley, Tribune staff reporters who write about the criminal justice system The runaway popularity of TV shows that make heroes out of forensic scientists has produced a spinoff of its own. Authorities have dubbed it the "CSI effect." The script for this phenomenon, written by prosecutors across the country and dutifully repeated by newspapers in recent months, is simple and compelling: Having watched hour after hour of "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation" and other legal dramas, jurors nationwide are demanding forensic evidence and acquitting defendants en masse when prosecutors don't deliver. The truth, it turns out, is more complicated than this TV-inspired fiction. While CSI and its brethren may well be stoking jurors' interest in forensic evidence, the shows also have left some of them more gullible and inclined to accept dubious forensic testimony as the real thing. A few anecdotes and the complaints of prosecutors aside, there is no definitive evidence to prove that jurors' TV-watching habits are uniformly hurting the prosecution rather than the defense. The raft of crime-lab scandals across the country--revealing the shoddy and sometimes fraudulent work of forensic analysts--suggests broader problems in American courts: how easily some prosecutors have brought unproven forensic theories or unchallenged forensic experts into the courtroom and how some jurors are willing to believe them. Judges note the keen interest jurors have in forensic evidence, but some reject the notion that jurors punish prosecutors whose cases aren't ready for prime time. "These are myths," said James Lombardi, a judge in Prince George's County, Md. "I don't think the juries react to it as much as the prosecutors. What wins these cases is good police investigative work." There seems little doubt that many of today's jurors enter the courtroom with a familiarity about forensics gleaned while sitting on their sofa. (Two shows in the "CSI" franchise consistently rank in television's Top 10.) Attorneys are asking potential jurors what TV programs they watch. And some jurors may indeed take the memory of those shows into their deliberations. But concluding from these facts that Hollywood's influence is contributing to the guilty walking free makes TV a convenient scapegoat for a criminal justice system that too often imprisons the innocent. Given the crime-lab scandals and the exoneration of scores of wrongly convicted inmates in recent years, perhaps these jurors simply are bringing healthy skepticism to cases that don't meet the burden of proof. Prosecutors are complaining that jurors are insisting on forensic evidence. But isn't the justice system all about providing proof? The same prosecutors almost always demand DNA before releasing a wrongly convicted inmate, even when the rest of their case has fallen apart. What's more, the "CSI effect" argument assumes that most jurors can't distinguish fantasy from reality. By the same logic, jurors who have watched reruns of "Perry Mason" would be ready to acquit anytime the defendant doesn't break down and confess under the withering cross-examination of the prosecutor. Bernie Murray, chief of the criminal prosecutions bureau at the Cook County state's attorney's office, agreed that prosecutors and defense attorneys have been dealing with the intrusion of pop culture for decades. Think "Law & Order" or "L.A. Law," "where cross-examinations are three questions and hearsay rules are violated," Murray said. But he argues that the current forensic hits are another matter. "What's different is that this is science," he said. "The stock-in-trade of the show is to say, `We're catching bad guys through science.' And though much of the science may exist, they distort the manner in which it is handled," promising DNA tests that come back after the commercial break. He's right that scientific evidence is different. That's a big part of the problem in real courtrooms. Experts cloaked in the white lab coat of science have extraordinary sway with jurors. It is this special influence that makes the misuse of forensic testimony and evidence particularly troubling. A Kane County jury convicted a man in 1997 largely based on a lip print taken from a piece of duct tape found at the murder scene. Though the theory that lip prints can uniquely identify individuals is unproved, jurors cited it in convicting Lavelle Davis. "I keep thinking about it when I see [crime shows] on TV--especially about the duct tape and lip prints," said juror Jodie Hurckes. Michael Toomin, a longtime Cook County Criminal Court judge, faces equally inquisitive jurors in his courtroom, although their curiosity turns to the less exotic forensic disciplines. "In most of the instances, they're asking where's the DNA, where's the fingerprints?" Toomin said. "The TV dramatizations have had an eye-opening effect. Some [jurors] have come to anticipate and expect that kind of evidence." The "CSI effect," he said, is "definitely out there." Toomin recalled a recent drug case in which police seized a bag of cocaine under a brick in a gangway. The defendant, who Toomin said had previous drug convictions, denied the drugs were his and said he had been down the street loading furniture into a van. Jurors acquitted the man and, in later conversations with Toomin, wanted to know: "Why didn't the police go in and get a fingerprint guy and take fingerprints off the brick?" A year ago, the judge said, "we would not have expected that type of logic." To counter such arguments, prosecutors in Cook County and elsewhere are calling experts to explain why the state didn't perform certain tests and how rare evidence such as DNA really is. But Ron Smith, who heads a Mississippi forensic consulting company, said prosecutors should worry less about television poisoning the minds of jurors and more about seizing the opportunity to educate them. "We can't change what L.A. or Hollywood is doing with the shows, but we can stop trying to look at it as a negative," he said. "You're lucky you have a jury that wants to listen." Prosecutors also can take heart in the story lines of these crime dramas: The forensic scientists, detectives and prosecutors are often good-looking and invariably heroic. Rarely do they convict the wrong person. It could be worse. When television offered up a drama centered on a crusading journalist who tried to free innocent prisoners--Oliver Platt in "Deadline"--the show flopped. Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by John Lentini ] From forens-owner Tue Jun 7 21:37:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j581blcW005526 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j581blxt005525 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:37:30 +1000 From: Morris Odell Subject: [forens] Visit to USA To: Forens-L Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0 Thread-Topic: Visit to USA Thread-Index: AcVry9eyeR62rd2vRNqTfIyD2zGh4g== content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hi all, I am going to be visiting the USA shortly to attend a couple of conferences related to Traffic Medicine and Safety. After the conferences are over I will be doing the tourist thing in NYC, Las Vegas and the West coast. It would be great to visit some colleagues in the field of forensic medicine, drug evaluation, toxicology etc etc in those places. If anyone has any suggestions or contacts please feel free to email me off the list. Regards to all, Dr Morris Odell Senior Forensic Physician Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine Melbourne, Australia mailto:morriso@vifm.org Tel: +613 9684 4480 Fax: +613 9684 4481 * * * CONFIDENTIAL * * * The information in this message and in any attachments may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must not read, forward, disclose, or use in any way the information this message or any attachment contains. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) --- [EndPost by Morris Odell ] From forens-owner Tue Jun 7 23:07:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5837pcW006724 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5837p3c006723 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:07:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-Id: <200506080307.j5837pcW006717@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> From: "Lana Thompson" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Visit to USA Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:07:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcVry9eyeR62rd2vRNqTfIyD2zGh4gACz8cg Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hi Morris, We exchanged notes a few years ago but I don't remember about what. I live in Florida......Boca Raton, specifically. Will you be near here? Lana [EndPost by "Lana Thompson" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 8 20:43:23 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j590hNcW021848 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j590hN2E021847 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:43:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LQHpFOUbPy9aoc/DiCaPBP9K3ClVrnERPZqzMUMyhfcSp6pq7f4XJ0mjt8eRdpNEzD4mshuT8p4FUGEz7NpVvzGfknCZpJ55f6qQN84VmTL2WvjN+pYO46Jr0LtdBDJ8h2OJrPv+LxvqNkzFeNNy1UhQAIhtkRVAalcxfIvKYEI= ; Message-ID: <20050609004318.14345.qmail@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Mr. Turvey, Many of the links on your Forensic "Fraud" and "Misadventure" pages are broken. For example, the links to transcripts of Richard Walters' testimony in Drake and Portundo are for an unreadable file. Links to some of the articles and opinions are also broken. Many of the articles, however, appear to be conclusory media allegations and in most cases it appears that your site declares many individuals to be "guilty unless proven innocent." You also rely on unfavorable factual findings of appellate courts, at least where it suits you. As I recall, the appellate court in Kansas made some very negative factual findings regarding your review of the Artis Cobb case, yet you haven't included yourself in the "Fraud" or "Misadventure" sections. Hope you get those links fixed soon. Thanks, L. DeShong, private individual --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 8 21:10:54 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j591AscW022550 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j591AsLB022549 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:10:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:10:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050609004318.14345.qmail@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu L; You are quite mistaken. I qualified as as expert in KS v. Cobb and only part of my testimony was disallowed. The jury found my testimony, and the rest of the case, compelling enough to find Artis Cobb guilty of only the lightest count of murder and gave him eight years. A mother and child were raped and killed in that case, so it's pretty clear the jury didn't believe Cobb was directly responsible for these events as the DNA evidence showed. Despite the DA's theory of the case. But my report and the appeal which mentions only the disallowed portion of my testimony are online at: http://www.corpus-delicti.com/cobb.html More to the point, the court conceded the substance of my testimony as already being agreed to and on the record. No problems were found with my testimony or my report. Please do your resarch better in the future, before coming to a public forum and making statements uninformed by the facts. As for the Fraud and Misadevnture archives, there is not a single case in which the fraud or misadventure is not conceded by the offending parties or established by independant investigation. It is largely confessions, evidence, and court findings, as with your friend Mr. Walter. Your claims to the contrary remain false. Not surprisingly, this email is a near duplicate of one you sent to this list when we first added your friend Mr. Walter to the archive. Clearly you hope to smear me with a little false ad hominem and red herring in order to distract from the false testiony given by Mr. Walter, you friend. That you would do this is something that you should examine closely. The ends do not justify the means. Please take greater care in the future not to kill the messenger. The forensic science community is better off knowing that frauds like Richard Walter are out there. Attacking me will not make him less of a fraud. For those interested, the archive remains at: http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html Brent Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:43 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Mr. Turvey, Many of the links on your Forensic "Fraud" and "Misadventure" pages are broken. For example, the links to transcripts of Richard Walters' testimony in Drake and Portundo are for an unreadable file. Links to some of the articles and opinions are also broken. Many of the articles, however, appear to be conclusory media allegations and in most cases it appears that your site declares many individuals to be "guilty unless proven innocent." You also rely on unfavorable factual findings of appellate courts, at least where it suits you. As I recall, the appellate court in Kansas made some very negative factual findings regarding your review of the Artis Cobb case, yet you haven't included yourself in the "Fraud" or "Misadventure" sections. Hope you get those links fixed soon. Thanks, L. DeShong, private individual --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 8 22:54:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j592sucW024497 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j592sueL024496 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:54:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: MPhill9929@aol.com Message-ID: <64.56cd52b7.2fd90978@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:54:48 EDT Subject: [forens] Fingerprint Experiment - Submerged Vehicles To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Below is the intro to the experiment we will be conducting. We still need more participants. If you are interested in participating please contact me ASAP off group. Mark Phillips _PSDiver Monthly_ (aoldb://mail/write/www.psdivermonthly.com) Editor / Publisher ------------------ An Experiment on Latent Print Recovery from Submerged Vehicles The goal of this experiment is to discover and validate the existence and recovery potential of latent prints on a vehicle after it has been submerged. While it is relatively common knowledge that fingerprints can be recovered from a wet environment, most references are to land based items that have been exposed to rain or condensation. The documentation on fingerprint recovery from submerged vehicles is limited at best. This project will use a Small Particle Reagent on surfaces as they are recovered from water over set periods of time starting with 24 hours and concluding at 6 months. As a control, identical objects recovered at the same time will be processed after being allowed to dry for 24 hours using standard powder techniques. Photographs will be taken and comparisons made between the two latents to compare both quality and possible degradation. Multiple agencies will conduct the same experiment. Salt water as well as fresh water submersions will be included in the testing. The results of each test as well as photographs and related documentation will be sent to a central source for comparisons with other testers. The results of the multiple agency tests will be compared and the results shared with all participants. Comparisons will be made between the latents recovered from fresh water and those recovered from salt and brackish water as well. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by MPhill9929@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Jun 8 23:21:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j593LvcW025238 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j593Lvva025237 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:21:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: MPhill9929@aol.com Message-ID: <1ff.3491646.2fd90fbb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:21:31 EDT Subject: [forens] Fingerprint Experiment - Submerged Vehicles To: PSDiverMonthly@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Greetings - It has taken some time but we have finally gotten all the pieces together for this experiment. You are receiving this email as part of a group email. Your request or invitation to join this project has been very welcomed. There has been some minor confusion about who can qualify to participate. The only requirement we have is that the experiment be conducted as designed and a qualified fingerprint technician perform the SPR and powder tests. In order to finalize your involvement, I will need you to send me the following information: Agency / Lab Name Primary Contact Address Phone Number Type of water - Salt, Brackish, Fresh - Moving, Still Local Dive Team if used and contact information for them. We need this information as soon as possible. Information received will be construed as your commitment to participate in this experiment and receive the SPR from Tri Tech Inc. I look forward to working with each of you, Mark Phillips Editor / Publisher PSDiver Monthly _www.psdivermonthly.com_ (http://www.psdivermonthly.com) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html application/pdf --- [EndPost by MPhill9929@aol.com] From forens-owner Thu Jun 9 11:13:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j59FDacW003539 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j59FDaUl003538 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:13:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded from [] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Subject: Re: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:36:13 -0500 >From what I can read in the appeals court decision I don't see anything to suggest the reason the jury came back with a guilty verdict on a lesser included offense had anything to do with Mr Turvey's testimony (limited as it apparently was). I wonder if the jury was ever asked about their decision. I suspect there may have been some on the jury who had real problems with the way the interrogation leading to the subject's confession went down. That may be why, to quote the appeals court, "they gave him a break." Even the appeals court thought there was eniough evidence to justify a more serious conviction. Why the jury chose to do otherwise may never be known. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:10 PM Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? > L; > > You are quite mistaken. I qualified as as expert in KS v. Cobb and only part > of my testimony was disallowed. The jury found my testimony, and the rest of > the case, compelling enough to find Artis Cobb guilty of only the lightest > count of murder and gave him eight years. A mother and child were raped and > killed in that case, so it's pretty clear the jury didn't believe Cobb was > directly responsible for these events as the DNA evidence showed. Despite > the DA's theory of the case. > > But my report and the appeal which mentions only the disallowed portion of > my testimony are online at: > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/cobb.html > > More to the point, the court conceded the substance of my testimony as > already being agreed to and on the record. No problems were found with my > testimony or my report. > > Please do your resarch better in the future, before coming to a public forum > and making statements uninformed by the facts. > > As for the Fraud and Misadevnture archives, there is not a single case in > which the fraud or misadventure is not conceded by the offending parties or > established by independant investigation. It is largely confessions, > evidence, and court findings, as with your friend Mr. Walter. Your claims to > the contrary remain false. > > Not surprisingly, this email is a near duplicate of one you sent to this > list when we first added your friend Mr. Walter to the archive. Clearly you > hope to smear me with a little false ad hominem and red herring in order to > distract from the false testiony given by Mr. Walter, you friend. That you > would do this is something that you should examine closely. The ends do not > justify the means. Please take greater care in the future not to kill the > messenger. The forensic science community is better off knowing that frauds > like Richard Walter are out there. Attacking me will not make him less of a > fraud. > > For those interested, the archive remains at: > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html > > Brent > Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science > Forensic Solutions, LLC > bturvey@forensic-science.com > http://www.corpus-delicti.com > http://www.forensic-science.com > > Author of: > Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html > > Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:43 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? > > > Mr. Turvey, > > Many of the links on your Forensic "Fraud" and "Misadventure" pages are > broken. For example, the links to transcripts of Richard Walters' testimony > in Drake and Portundo are for an unreadable file. Links to some of the > articles and opinions are also broken. > > Many of the articles, however, appear to be conclusory media allegations and > in most cases it appears that your site declares many individuals to be > "guilty unless proven innocent." > > You also rely on unfavorable factual findings of appellate courts, at least > where it suits you. As I recall, the appellate court in Kansas made some > very negative factual findings regarding your review of the Artis Cobb case, > yet you haven't included yourself in the "Fraud" or "Misadventure" sections. > > Hope you get those links fixed soon. > > Thanks, > > L. DeShong, private individual > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by L DeShong ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 9 13:51:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j59HpkcW005963 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j59Hpkw7005962 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:51:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded from [] (fwd) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:54:28 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Mike; Having been in front of the jury and knowing the jury polls, I can say that you are not entirely off the mark. The jury really did not care for the fact that the DNA didn't match or include him, despite Cobb's confession to both penetration and ejaculation. It did of course match others who had pointed to Cobb as the suspect, who were not the victim's husband. And the jury really had a problem with the Cobb "confession", which was about what he thinks he had a dream about. Classic abuse of the Reid Technique case. I can also say that the jury appreciated having someone in court to say openly that the reconstruction offered by the prosecution was biased towards the higher charge, and that any reconstruction in general cannot ignore the facts which contradict it. It is a good teaching case that I should probably dust off and use, but haven't had time to as of yet. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 6:14 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded from [] (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Subject: Re: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:36:13 -0500 >From what I can read in the appeals court decision I don't see anything to suggest the reason the jury came back with a guilty verdict on a lesser included offense had anything to do with Mr Turvey's testimony (limited as it apparently was). I wonder if the jury was ever asked about their decision. I suspect there may have been some on the jury who had real problems with the way the interrogation leading to the subject's confession went down. That may be why, to quote the appeals court, "they gave him a break." Even the appeals court thought there was eniough evidence to justify a more serious conviction. Why the jury chose to do otherwise may never be known. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:10 PM Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? > L; > > You are quite mistaken. I qualified as as expert in KS v. Cobb and only part > of my testimony was disallowed. The jury found my testimony, and the rest of > the case, compelling enough to find Artis Cobb guilty of only the lightest > count of murder and gave him eight years. A mother and child were raped and > killed in that case, so it's pretty clear the jury didn't believe Cobb was > directly responsible for these events as the DNA evidence showed. Despite > the DA's theory of the case. > > But my report and the appeal which mentions only the disallowed portion of > my testimony are online at: > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/cobb.html > > More to the point, the court conceded the substance of my testimony as > already being agreed to and on the record. No problems were found with my > testimony or my report. > > Please do your resarch better in the future, before coming to a public forum > and making statements uninformed by the facts. > > As for the Fraud and Misadevnture archives, there is not a single case in > which the fraud or misadventure is not conceded by the offending parties or > established by independant investigation. It is largely confessions, > evidence, and court findings, as with your friend Mr. Walter. Your claims to > the contrary remain false. > > Not surprisingly, this email is a near duplicate of one you sent to this > list when we first added your friend Mr. Walter to the archive. Clearly you > hope to smear me with a little false ad hominem and red herring in order to > distract from the false testiony given by Mr. Walter, you friend. That you > would do this is something that you should examine closely. The ends do not > justify the means. Please take greater care in the future not to kill the > messenger. The forensic science community is better off knowing that frauds > like Richard Walter are out there. Attacking me will not make him less of a > fraud. > > For those interested, the archive remains at: > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html > > Brent > Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science > Forensic Solutions, LLC > bturvey@forensic-science.com > http://www.corpus-delicti.com > http://www.forensic-science.com > > Author of: > Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html > > Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science > http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:43 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? > > > Mr. Turvey, > > Many of the links on your Forensic "Fraud" and "Misadventure" pages are > broken. For example, the links to transcripts of Richard Walters' testimony > in Drake and Portundo are for an unreadable file. Links to some of the > articles and opinions are also broken. > > Many of the articles, however, appear to be conclusory media allegations and > in most cases it appears that your site declares many individuals to be > "guilty unless proven innocent." > > You also rely on unfavorable factual findings of appellate courts, at least > where it suits you. As I recall, the appellate court in Kansas made some > very negative factual findings regarding your review of the Artis Cobb case, > yet you haven't included yourself in the "Fraud" or "Misadventure" sections. > > Hope you get those links fixed soon. > > Thanks, > > L. DeShong, private individual > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by L DeShong ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 9 19:57:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j59NvxcW010992 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j59NvxuJ010991 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:57:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:58:05 -0300 From: "Wanderley" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cc: bturvey@forensic-science.com Subject: [forens] Forensic frauds X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: UebiMiau 2.7.2 X-Original-IP: 201.14.81.164 X-MSMail-Priority: Medium Importance: Medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20050610000055.9AC165588BC@darkstar.ambr.com.br> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ambr.com.br Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Mr. Turvey, I'm writing a paper on forensic mistakes and forensic frauds, with focus on some cases of human rights violations that happened some 30 years ago, when Brazil was under a military dictatorship. At the time, there were pressures on some medical examiners to disguise a number of political executions as "deaths by natural causes". Some refused, some didn't. I read the abstract of one of your recent works, "Forensic frauds: a study of 42 cases", published in the Journal of Behavioral Profiling, vol 4, number 1, April 2003, and I'm trying to get a copy. I think it would be a very interesting angle of research if I could offer some measure of explanation on why some of them did what the police wanted, and some didn't. Up to now, I couldn't obtain a copy. I tried PubMed, but it seems that the Journal of Behavioral Profiling isn't indexed there. The virtual library I'm using, BVS-Bireme ( www.bireme.br) says that they need the Could you, please, send me the numbers I need? Namely, the numbers of the Thanks in advance, Roberto F. Wanderley Deputy Director Instituto de Medicina Brasilia - DF - Brazil wanderley@ambr.com.br rfwanderley@hotmail.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- [EndPost by "Wanderley" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 9 21:02:21 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5A12LcW012422 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5A12LF5012421 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:02:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic frauds Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:02:09 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050610000055.9AC165588BC@darkstar.ambr.com.br> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Roberto; I email you a copy. Brent Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Wanderley Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 2:58 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cc: bturvey@forensic-science.com Subject: [forens] Forensic frauds Mr. Turvey, I'm writing a paper on forensic mistakes and forensic frauds, with focus on some cases of human rights violations that happened some 30 years ago, when Brazil was under a military dictatorship. At the time, there were pressures on some medical examiners to disguise a number of political executions as "deaths by natural causes". Some refused, some didn't. I read the abstract of one of your recent works, "Forensic frauds: a study of 42 cases", published in the Journal of Behavioral Profiling, vol 4, number 1, April 2003, and I'm trying to get a copy. I think it would be a very interesting angle of research if I could offer some measure of explanation on why some of them did what the police wanted, and some didn't. Up to now, I couldn't obtain a copy. I tried PubMed, but it seems that the Journal of Behavioral Profiling isn't indexed there. The virtual library I'm using, BVS-Bireme ( www.bireme.br) says that they need the Could you, please, send me the numbers I need? Namely, the numbers of the Thanks in advance, Roberto F. Wanderley Deputy Director Instituto de Medicina Brasilia - DF - Brazil wanderley@ambr.com.br rfwanderley@hotmail.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- [EndPost by "Wanderley" ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 08:40:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5ACe6cW018882 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5ACe65G018881 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:40:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:40:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forward from ["Dave Charlton" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:27:55 +0100 (GMT Standard Time) From: "Dave Charlton" Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic frauds Roberto,=0D =0D would this be of interest? Could it be that some of these doctors really believed natural causes was the reason for death because of what we call conformational bias', a kind of group decision whereby no one wants to be the odd one out......especially in a political dictatorship!! If you want more info, my research supervisor Dr Itiel Dror might be able to help further.=0D =0D id@ecs.soton.ac.uk=0D =0D A link to our web site.=0D =0D http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~id/=0D =0D regards,=0D =0D =0D =0D Dave Charlton =0D Senior Fingerprint Examiner=0D Sussex Police=0D 01273 859013=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Wanderley=0D Date: 06/10/05 00:58:51=0D To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu=0D Cc: bturvey@forensic-science.com=0D Subject: [forens] Forensic frauds=0D =0D Mr. Turvey,=0D =0D I'm writing a paper on forensic mistakes and forensic frauds, with focus=0D on some cases of human rights violations that happened some 30 years=0D ago, when Brazil was under a military dictatorship. At the time, there we= re=0D pressures on some medical examiners to disguise a number of political=0D executions as "deaths by natural causes". Some refused, some didn't.=0D =0D I read the abstract of one of your recent works, "Forensic frauds: a=0D study of 42 cases", published in the Journal of Behavioral Profiling, vol= 4,=0D number 1, April 2003, and I'm trying to get a copy. I think it would be a= =0D very interesting angle of research if I could offer some measure of=0D explanation on why some of them did what the police wanted, and some=0D didn't.=0D =0D Up to now, I couldn't obtain a copy.=0D =0D I tried PubMed, but it seems that the Journal of Behavioral Profiling=0D isn't indexed there. The virtual library I'm using, BVS-Bireme (=0D www.bireme.br) says that they need the=0D =0D =0D Could you, please, send me the numbers I need? Namely, the numbers of the= =0D =0D Thanks in advance,=0D =0D =0D Roberto F. Wanderley=0D Deputy Director=0D Instituto de Medicina=0D Brasilia - DF - Brazil=0D =0D wanderley@ambr.com.br=0D =0D =0D rfwanderley@hotmail.com=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---=0D text/html (html body -- converted)=0D ---=0D [EndPost by "Wanderley" ]=0D =2E --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif image/gif application/pdf --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 08:54:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5ACs8cW019768 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5ACs8p9019767 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:54:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Message-Id: To: "Forens-l (E-mail)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= Subject: [forens] Dr. Maurice Marshall Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:54:03 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Are there any list members who could provide me with the contact information (preferentially email address) of Dr. Maurice Marshall of the DSTL in UK? Thanks, Regards, Eric Stauffer [EndPost by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 09:28:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5ADSlcW021251 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5ADSlEJ021250 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:28:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <2d31c9ebd3e24037f2d89540cf40601c@strath.ac.uk> From: niamh NicDaeid Subject: Re: [forens] Dr. Maurice Marshall Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:26:28 +0000 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Strath-Information: Contact for more information X-Strath-Scan: clean X-Strath-UBECheck: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5ADSlcW021245 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hi Eric How are things ? As far as I'm aware maurice has moved from DSTL. The new director of the Forensic Explosive lab is Dr Sean Doyle. hope this helps best regards niamh On 10 Jun 2005, at 12:54, Éric Stauffer wrote: > Are there any list members who could provide me with the contact > information (preferentially email address) of Dr. Maurice Marshall of > the DSTL in UK? > > Thanks, > > Regards, > > Eric Stauffer > > [EndPost by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= ] > > Dr. Niamh Nic Daeid Senior Lecturer in Forensic Science Centre for Forensic Science University of Strathclyde Royal College 204 George Street Glasgow G 1 1XW Scotland int + 44 141 5484700 (phone) int + 44 141 5482532 (fax) [EndPost by niamh NicDaeid ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 15:41:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5AJfacW028330 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5AJfaLh028329 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:41:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:40:54 -0700 From: "Mary Likins" Subject: [forens] A post regarding an arson case To: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5AJfZcW028324 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I am posting this for an attorney friend, any helpful responses are much appreciated! Mary Likins I have formulated a question for you that I hoped you could post on the listserv to help determine if there is a more advanced test that has been developed to determine the source and form of MPDs and/or isoparaffins. My question is: "Regarding medium petroleum distillates (MPDs) and/or isoparaffins, are there any new scientific developments that allow for testing of samples containing the two aforementioned substances that can determine either 1) their form (solid, liquid, gas), or 2) their origin (i.e. as an inherent part of the sample OR as a foreign substance that came into contact with the sample)." Thanks to all, Mary Mary Likins, RN, LNC Forensic Nurse/Case Manager Northern California Innocence Project Santa Clara University School of Law 900 Lafayette Street Suite 604 Santa Clara, CA 95050 (408) 554-5239 mlikins@scu.edu This message scanned for viruses and SPAM by GWGuardian at SCU (MGW1) [EndPost by "Mary Likins" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 16:17:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5AKHtcW029338 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5AKHtR3029337 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5AKHscW029332 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:56:01 -0400 From: Azriel Gorski Subject: Re: [forens] Dr. Maurice Marshall I found the link with a Google search. http://www.chm.uri.edu/forensics/exclassinstr.shtml I really didn't spend time on it, but I think the program is current. Whether the page is or not is questionable. No email is listed for him, but there is one under contact us for the program. Good luck. Azriel Gorski Éric Stauffer wrote: > Are there any list members who could provide me with the contact > information (preferentially email address) of Dr. Maurice Marshall of > the DSTL in UK? > > Thanks, > > Regards, > > Eric Stauffer > > [EndPost by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= ] > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Azriel Gorski azriel@castledesk.com Choice - The enchanted sword with an edge that shapes lifetimes. - Richard Bach The purpose of life is not to arrive at the grave perfectly preserved and unscarred. It is better to slide and tumble into the grave screaming - Holy Sh*t. What a ride! - Anonymous I owe, I owe, so it is off to work I go. (with apologies to the seven dwarfs) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 16:31:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5AKVhcW029993 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5AKVhFL029992 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:31:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] A post regarding an arson case Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:31:43 -0500 Message-Id: <57472660FB783A47BD72376AF08F08B80206E5E1@ts-dps-mail-01.dps.state.mn.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] A post regarding an arson case Thread-Index: AcVt9gyStd2K3Bc1Rr6IGKxTvp16VgABJjFQ From: "Cernohous, Kristi" To: Cc: "Koch, James" , "Tebow, Dave" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5AKVgcW029987 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu It may be helpful if you could inform the list of the method(s) that was used to determine MPD and/or isoparaffins in the first place. Thanks, Kristi Cernohous MN BCA Kristi.Cernohous@state.mn.us 651.793.2875 -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Mary Likins Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 2:41 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] A post regarding an arson case I am posting this for an attorney friend, any helpful responses are much appreciated! Mary Likins I have formulated a question for you that I hoped you could post on the listserv to help determine if there is a more advanced test that has been developed to determine the source and form of MPDs and/or isoparaffins. My question is: "Regarding medium petroleum distillates (MPDs) and/or isoparaffins, are there any new scientific developments that allow for testing of samples containing the two aforementioned substances that can determine either 1) their form (solid, liquid, gas), or 2) their origin (i.e. as an inherent part of the sample OR as a foreign substance that came into contact with the sample)." Thanks to all, Mary Mary Likins, RN, LNC Forensic Nurse/Case Manager Northern California Innocence Project Santa Clara University School of Law 900 Lafayette Street Suite 604 Santa Clara, CA 95050 (408) 554-5239 mlikins@scu.edu This message scanned for viruses and SPAM by GWGuardian at SCU (MGW1) [EndPost by "Mary Likins" ] [EndPost by "Cernohous, Kristi" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 10 18:51:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5AMpocW001975 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5AMpomM001974 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:51:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ebaqFve61J8WmXo6aGLdIa8P4ZLeTRgFgiTosKZfiMOikw2WRKjx2gvNdwgQ6LytPX7WY8dKRMtNCAfNIA4F5sMQYU8FPcIFXFOxLEBm/DH0U6ouc9XV0ei2OPXNhcsGue0qtcpETdhhPSZQhEJMGkGEYoq4N/Gon7vSLwp2gu4= ; Message-ID: <20050610225146.11602.qmail@web40824.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:51:46 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Subject: RE: [forens] A post regarding an arson case To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <57472660FB783A47BD72376AF08F08B80206E5E1@ts-dps-mail-01.dps.state.mn.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Both MPDs and isoparaffins occurr in background materials, as well as in fuels and solvents. MPDs are very common in background substrata, isoparaffins less so. The term MPD, assuming it is being used properly, describes a reasonably specific product. Isoparaffins may be light, medium or heavy. The heavies are more likely to be found in background substrata. For more details on background contributions top fire debris samples, see Lentini, Dolan and Cherry, "The Petroleum Laced Background, J. Forensic Sciences, Vol. 45, No. 5, September 2000. "Cernohous, Kristi" wrote: It may be helpful if you could inform the list of the method(s) that was used to determine MPD and/or isoparaffins in the first place. Thanks, Kristi Cernohous MN BCA Kristi.Cernohous@state.mn.us 651.793.2875 -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Mary Likins Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 2:41 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] A post regarding an arson case I am posting this for an attorney friend, any helpful responses are much appreciated! Mary Likins I have formulated a question for you that I hoped you could post on the listserv to help determine if there is a more advanced test that has been developed to determine the source and form of MPDs and/or isoparaffins. My question is: "Regarding medium petroleum distillates (MPDs) and/or isoparaffins, are there any new scientific developments that allow for testing of samples containing the two aforementioned substances that can determine either 1) their form (solid, liquid, gas), or 2) their origin (i.e. as an inherent part of the sample OR as a foreign substance that came into contact with the sample)." Thanks to all, Mary Mary Likins, RN, LNC Forensic Nurse/Case Manager Northern California Innocence Project Santa Clara University School of Law 900 Lafayette Street Suite 604 Santa Clara, CA 95050 (408) 554-5239 mlikins@scu.edu This message scanned for viruses and SPAM by GWGuardian at SCU (MGW1) [EndPost by "Mary Likins" ] [EndPost by "Cernohous, Kristi" ] Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by John Lentini ] From forens-owner Sat Jun 11 14:14:52 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5BIEqcW010466 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5BIEqxe010465 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:14:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded from [Dennis Hilliard ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5BIEqcW010460 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:32:09 -0400 Sender: Dennis Hilliard From: Dennis Hilliard Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Eric and Azriel The Site Azriel found is the seminar link for the University of Rhode Island Forensic Science Partnership. It is actice and Dr. Marshall has given two lectures during the time the seminars have been offered, since 1999. Dr. Jimmie Oxley and I coordinate the lectures and Dr. Marshall is a colleague of Dr. Oxley. Eric, if you do not have Dr. Marshall's information by now, you can contact Jimmie by e-mail: joxley@chm.uri.edu or by phone: 401-874-2103. Jimmie may be on travel, I think she is headed to Isreal next week. BTW, We are looking for speakers to participate in in the Fall and Spring seminar series. If anyone on the list would like to vist URIO and give a forensic related talk for 1 - 1.5 hours on a friday afternoon, pleas contact Dr. Oxley of myself. You can see a link of previous semenar speakers at: http://www.chm.uri.edu/forensics/seminar.shtml and http://www.chm.uri.edu/forensics/pastseminars.shtml Take care, Dennis >===== Original Message From "Christopher J. Basten" ===== >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:56:01 -0400 >From: Azriel Gorski >Subject: Re: [forens] Dr. Maurice Marshall > >I found the link with a Google search. > >http://www.chm.uri.edu/forensics/exclassinstr.shtml > >I really didn't spend time on it, but I think the program is current. >Whether the page is or not is questionable. No email is listed for him, >but there is one under contact us for the program. > >Good luck. >Azriel Gorski > >Éric Stauffer wrote: > >> Are there any list members who could provide me with the contact >> information (preferentially email address) of Dr. Maurice Marshall of >> the DSTL in UK? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Regards, >> >> Eric Stauffer >> >> [EndPost by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= ] >> > >-- >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Azriel Gorski azriel@castledesk.com > >Choice - The enchanted sword with an edge that > shapes lifetimes. - Richard Bach > >The purpose of life is not to arrive at the grave > perfectly preserved and unscarred. It is better > to slide and tumble into the grave screaming - > Holy Sh*t. What a ride! - Anonymous > >I owe, I owe, so it is off to work I go. > (with apologies to the seven dwarfs) >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >[EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] Dennis [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Sun Jun 12 03:27:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5C7RecW015827 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5C7Re6K015826 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:27:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Marc Subject: [forens] Auto-Forensics Question Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:27:51 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.728) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hello all. I'm a private citizen, new to the list, and I have a question I was hoping y'all could help me out with: Is there a forensic way to determine either or both of the following: Assuming a hearse blows a tire on a curb: (a) can such a thing be determined forensically and, if so, how? and (b) is there a way to determine how far the hearse is capable of driving on the newly-flat tire? Any help answering either or both of these questions would be greatly appreciated. Best, Marc Guggenheim [EndPost by Marc ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 13 07:07:20 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5DB7KcW029016 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5DB7Klj029015 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:07:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [forens] Auto-Forensics Question Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:06:15 -0400 Message-ID: <6834EDC78F56C4439EF5D9B530B7F785C51335@ATF-HQ-EXMB01.ad.msnet.atf.gov> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Auto-Forensics Question Thread-Index: AcVvIM6KafFceKkFSsmGZA5atQjkJAA5voVw From: "Thompson, Robert M." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 11:06:16.0121 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB17BA90:01C57007] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5DB7KcW029010 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu OK, I have to ask: Horse-drawn or motor vehicle? Cheers! -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Marc Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:28 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Auto-Forensics Question Hello all. I'm a private citizen, new to the list, and I have a question I was hoping y'all could help me out with: Is there a forensic way to determine either or both of the following: Assuming a hearse blows a tire on a curb: (a) can such a thing be determined forensically and, if so, how? and (b) is there a way to determine how far the hearse is capable of driving on the newly-flat tire? Any help answering either or both of these questions would be greatly appreciated. Best, Marc Guggenheim [EndPost by Marc ] [EndPost by "Thompson, Robert M." ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 13 12:10:24 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5DGANcW004777 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5DGANEU004776 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:10:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <6834EDC78F56C4439EF5D9B530B7F785C51335@ATF-HQ-EXMB01.ad.msnet.atf.gov> References: <6834EDC78F56C4439EF5D9B530B7F785C51335@ATF-HQ-EXMB01.ad.msnet.atf.gov> Message-Id: <86FFB715-BA1E-40C8-BEAA-8517DAC99B76@mac.com> From: CSI Miami Subject: Re: [forens] Auto-Forensics Question Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:11:53 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset=US-ASCII;delsp=yes;format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu On Jun 13, 2005, at 4:06 AM, Thompson, Robert M. wrote: > OK, I have to ask: > > Horse-drawn or motor vehicle? A fair question. A motor vehicle. Though I should note that the answer need not be specific to hearses or funeral coaches. Just knowing how one can tell if ANY type of car (a) blew a flat tire and (b) how far it could travel on its rim, would be most helpful. Best, Marc Guggenheim --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by CSI Miami ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 13 17:10:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5DLA7cW008944 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5DLA78j008943 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:10:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Forensic Science List" Cc: Subject: [forens] RE: Auto-Forensics Question Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:09:54 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c5705c$428e2080$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu On Sunday, June 12, 2005, at 3:28 AM, Marc Guggenheim wrote: > (b) is there a way to determine how far the hearse is capable of > driving on the newly-flat tire? Sure. Take the same or a similar vehicle, deflate a tire and start driving. Watch the odometer. I once pursued a Suzuki Samurai with a flat tire for about 2.5 miles. It stopped because we trapped the driver in a dead-end road, not because the vehicle was unable to continue. LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept Aberdeen, WA USA [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 13 21:13:21 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5E1DLcW013932 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5E1DLiO013931 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:13:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f In-Reply-To: <000a01c5705c$428e2080$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> References: <000a01c5705c$428e2080$0200a8c0@8sv5f01> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-Id: <699E8FF3-8871-446F-8CCD-BDD99D179CBB@mac.com> From: Marc Subject: Re: [forens] RE: Auto-Forensics Question Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:15:01 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu On Jun 13, 2005, at 2:09 PM, Bob Kegel wrote: > Sure. Take the same or a similar vehicle, deflate a tire and start > driving. > Watch the odometer. Brilliant! Thanks. [EndPost by Marc ] From forens-owner Tue Jun 14 11:25:28 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5EFPScW005294 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5EFPSDX005293 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:25:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Message-Id: <92401033-B53F-4B83-85F9-E965E125B0D1@mac.com> To: "Forens-l (E-mail)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= Subject: [forens] Assistance in identifying a shoeprint Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:25:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear List Members, I have a shoeprint dating back to 1984 (in the USA) for which I am trying to see if its brand (and model) could be determined. I know it is an almost impossible task, but I would appreciate if anyone could provide any assistance. The photograph of the shoeprint is avilable at the following address: http://homepage.mac.com/arson/Shoeprint.jpg You can contact me at arson@mac.com Sincerely Yours, Eric Stauffer MME Forensic Services Suwanee, GA 30024 [EndPost by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= ] From forens-owner Tue Jun 14 16:05:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5EK5AcW010774 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5EK58TW010773 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:05:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-Id: <200506142005.j5EK56n03092@guri.is.scarlet.be> From: "Gerrit Volckeryck" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Assistance in identifying a shoeprint Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:02:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <92401033-B53F-4B83-85F9-E965E125B0D1@mac.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcVw94T3z1qhTNTOQDmdMkkZg+/aOgAI4u/A X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5EK58cW010767 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Eric, You might stand a better chance, posting this photograph on the ENFSI Marks working group "Wanted page". About one hundred shoeprint experts from almost all of the European countries will have a look at it ... Send your photograph and some information to wanted@krp.poliisi.fi If you want to be included in their mailing-list, just ask (same address). All the best, Gerrit Volckeryck Commissaris Centrale eenheid Directie Technische en Wetenschappelijke Politie Notelaarstraat 211 1000 Brussel tel. 02/743.72.95 fax. 02/743.76.98 GSM 0475/44.55.62 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] Namens Éric Stauffer Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juni 2005 17:25 Aan: Forens-l (E-mail) Onderwerp: [forens] Assistance in identifying a shoeprint Dear List Members, I have a shoeprint dating back to 1984 (in the USA) for which I am trying to see if its brand (and model) could be determined. I know it is an almost impossible task, but I would appreciate if anyone could provide any assistance. The photograph of the shoeprint is avilable at the following address: http://homepage.mac.com/arson/Shoeprint.jpg You can contact me at arson@mac.com Sincerely Yours, Eric Stauffer MME Forensic Services Suwanee, GA 30024 [EndPost by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Stauffer?= ] [EndPost by "Gerrit Volckeryck" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 16 12:09:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5GG9WcW001347 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5GG9WSL001346 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:09:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:10:07 -0300 From: "Wanderley" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Forensic frauds X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: UebiMiau 2.7.2 X-Original-IP: 200.140.1.193 X-MSMail-Priority: Medium Importance: Medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20050616161312.A739A55886E@darkstar.ambr.com.br> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ambr.com.br Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Mr. Turvey, I´ve got the article you sent me. Thank you very much. Sorry for the delay, but I had to stay a couple of days away from my computer. Roberto F. Wanderley wanderley@ambr.com.br --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- [EndPost by "Wanderley" ] From forens-owner Sun Jun 19 00:30:19 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5J4UJcW029817 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5J4UJDI029816 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:30:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CId/jqj6zWxuyXSjQqOQ+AePgo79c2l6yLWBFQZF1XOMHdhcaWN8lGeKqkijbmg+ETZvY4Wc2jtFEcOjOttchjcmU15zzFYJbYEqYMbtc8ov4zMN7jfJI+FOfisRm5WtFrknQdndtZVHgUabr+vrWPTu7omoFJAP/q5gnCGjd6I= ; Message-ID: <20050619043014.86103.qmail@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:30:14 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu "Brent E. Turvey, MS" wrote: **You are quite mistaken. I qualified as as expert in KS v. Cobb and only part of my testimony was disallowed.** According to the opinion, your conclusions and opinions were disallowed and the bulk of your testimony were admitted as a proffer for the appellate court, outside the presence of the jury. ** The jury found my testimony, and the rest of the case, compelling enough to find Artis Cobb guilty of only the lightest count of murder and gave him eight years. A mother and child were raped and killed in that case, so it's pretty clear the jury didn't believe Cobb was directly responsible for these events as the DNA evidence showed. ** How could opinions and conclusions they didn't hear have influenced them? (snipped) ** More to the point, the court conceded the substance of my testimony as already being agreed to and on the record. No problems were found with my testimony or my report.** The trial court also found that you didn't visit the crime scene inside the apartment, or actually examine any of the physical evidence in the case. This was agreed to by the appellate court. Which leads to the question as to how you could have accurately formed any opinions regarding Mr. Cobb's participation in the murders, let alone accurately form any opinons regarding discrepancies in the evidence and Mr. Cobb's statements to police. **Please do your resarch better in the future, before coming to a public forum and making statements uninformed by the facts. ** The opinion states that you didn't visit the crime scene inside the apartment and that you didn't examine any of the physical evidence. My research is, technically, more accurate than yours. **As for the Fraud and Misadevnture archives, there is not a single case in which the fraud or misadventure is not conceded by the offending parties or established by independant investigation. It is largely confessions, evidence, and court findings, as with your friend Mr. Walter. Your claims to the contrary remain false. ** There are broken links on your site, including the links to the allegedly false testimony given by Mr. Walter. **Not surprisingly, this email is a near duplicate of one you sent to this list when we first added your friend Mr. Walter to the archive. Clearly you hope to smear me with a little false ad hominem and red herring in order to distract from the false testiony given by Mr. Walter, you friend. ** I gave my opinion here then, and I'm giving it again now. I haven't personally attacked you, nor have I made any allegations about your site and your attacks on others. **That you would do this is something that you should examine closely. ** Perhaps you should examine your own motivations, Mr. Turvey. **The ends do not justify the means. ** Something you should also take to heart. **Please take greater care in the future not to kill the messenger.** Paranoid, much? **The forensic science community is better off knowing that frauds like Richard Walter are out there. ** The "forensic science community," I'm sure, has little to no interest in your site. As I recall, others on this list responded to your attack on Richard Walter after the Drake opinion was released. **Attacking me will not make him less of a fraud. ** I didn't attack you. I merely pointed out some of the flaws in your conclusory statements. Cheers, L DeShong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Sun Jun 19 03:23:50 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5J7NocW001430 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5J7No0k001429 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:23:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: "Brent E. Turvey, MS" To: Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:23:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050619043014.86103.qmail@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu L; As I said, the Cobb jury heard enough, but the part of my testimony that was allowed wasn't part of the appeal. We could go round and round about this, but I won't waste bandwidth on a discussion that goes nowhere with someone that posts false info from a place of anonymity. I think people are smart enough to recognize that kind of behavior for what it is. Brent Brent E. Turvey, MS - Forensic Science Forensic Solutions, LLC bturvey@forensic-science.com http://www.corpus-delicti.com http://www.forensic-science.com Author of: Turvey, B. (2002) Criminal Profiling, 2nd Ed., Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/cp/cp_index.html Savino J. & Turvey B. (2004) Rape Investigation Handbook, Elsevier Science http://www.corpus-delicti.com/fs_bookstore/rih/rih_index.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 7:30 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? "Brent E. Turvey, MS" wrote: **You are quite mistaken. I qualified as as expert in KS v. Cobb and only part of my testimony was disallowed.** According to the opinion, your conclusions and opinions were disallowed and the bulk of your testimony were admitted as a proffer for the appellate court, outside the presence of the jury. ** The jury found my testimony, and the rest of the case, compelling enough to find Artis Cobb guilty of only the lightest count of murder and gave him eight years. A mother and child were raped and killed in that case, so it's pretty clear the jury didn't believe Cobb was directly responsible for these events as the DNA evidence showed. ** How could opinions and conclusions they didn't hear have influenced them? (snipped) ** More to the point, the court conceded the substance of my testimony as already being agreed to and on the record. No problems were found with my testimony or my report.** The trial court also found that you didn't visit the crime scene inside the apartment, or actually examine any of the physical evidence in the case. This was agreed to by the appellate court. Which leads to the question as to how you could have accurately formed any opinions regarding Mr. Cobb's participation in the murders, let alone accurately form any opinons regarding discrepancies in the evidence and Mr. Cobb's statements to police. **Please do your resarch better in the future, before coming to a public forum and making statements uninformed by the facts. ** The opinion states that you didn't visit the crime scene inside the apartment and that you didn't examine any of the physical evidence. My research is, technically, more accurate than yours. **As for the Fraud and Misadevnture archives, there is not a single case in which the fraud or misadventure is not conceded by the offending parties or established by independant investigation. It is largely confessions, evidence, and court findings, as with your friend Mr. Walter. Your claims to the contrary remain false. ** There are broken links on your site, including the links to the allegedly false testimony given by Mr. Walter. **Not surprisingly, this email is a near duplicate of one you sent to this list when we first added your friend Mr. Walter to the archive. Clearly you hope to smear me with a little false ad hominem and red herring in order to distract from the false testiony given by Mr. Walter, you friend. ** I gave my opinion here then, and I'm giving it again now. I haven't personally attacked you, nor have I made any allegations about your site and your attacks on others. **That you would do this is something that you should examine closely. ** Perhaps you should examine your own motivations, Mr. Turvey. **The ends do not justify the means. ** Something you should also take to heart. **Please take greater care in the future not to kill the messenger.** Paranoid, much? **The forensic science community is better off knowing that frauds like Richard Walter are out there. ** The "forensic science community," I'm sure, has little to no interest in your site. As I recall, others on this list responded to your attack on Richard Walter after the Drake opinion was released. **Attacking me will not make him less of a fraud. ** I didn't attack you. I merely pointed out some of the flaws in your conclusory statements. Cheers, L DeShong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by "Brent E. Turvey, MS" ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 20 18:38:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5KMcdcW024041 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5KMcdme024040 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:38:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:25:26 -0400 From: "Steffen, L. Kraig" (by way of Dennis Hilliard ) Subject: NERM 2005 Regional ACS Meeting Good Day I received a request to post this message to the forens list for your consideration. Please respond to L. Kraig Steffen if you are interested in submitting an abstract. Thanks. Dennis The American Chemical Society will be holding their Northeast Regional meeting Thursday - Saturday July 14-16th at Sacred Heart University in Fairfield Connecticut. We would very much like to have a session on Forensic Chemistry. Dennis Hilliard, NEAFS President Elect, was kind enough to let me post this message to the NEAFS board. NERM 2005 will feature a full spectrum of oral presentations/poster sessions/workshops spanning the gamut of chemical science today from Nanotech to Organic Electrochemistry. If you, or a member of your staff, would be interested in giving a talk on their work (the local rule is you only need one molecule per talk to count), we would be delighted to have you come to our meeting. Please go to: www.nerm2005.org For more information, including a link to the abstract submission page. (also, we have a strong chemical education program so if you run or teach in a forensic chemistry program this a great place for students to present their work) Feel free to email or call me if you have any questions, L. Kraig Steffen, NERM 2005 Program Co-Chair lsteffen@mail.fairfield.edu 203 258 1510 [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 20 20:06:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5L06ecW025405 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5L06edY025404 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:06:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: <004f01c575f5$0d3d36c0$640042ac@davelaptop> From: "Dave Khey" To: Subject: [forens] Some light laughs for the week... Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:06:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5L06ecW025406 List, Some of you may find the following amusing... it will lighten up your work week! http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dea_agent_accidently_shoots_himself_in_foot_during_safety_lecture_Mar_09_2005.html It's not Friday, but I couldn't wait. Best, Dave --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Dave Khey" ] From forens-owner Tue Jun 21 10:58:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5LEwxcW005462 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5LEwxid005461 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:58:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.5.138] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: "Forensic Newsgroup" Subject: [forens] etat vermoulu Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:28:44 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2005 14:58:49.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB348310:01C57671] X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5LEwxcW005463 Dear List, I have been reading a forensic pathology text. I found two interesting terms "Plaques jaunes" and "etat vermoulu". Since I know a little French, I know they mean yellow plaques and worm eaten state respectively. But what exactly are they? The book does not explain them well. Dorland dictionary tells me that Placques jaunes are old scars found at the crests of gyri in the brain. It is silent on etat vermoulu. Thanks. Sincerely, Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 26465460, 26413101 http://www.geradts.com/anil dr_anil@hotmail.com *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 22 08:02:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5MC2IcW019412 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5MC2HYh019411 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:02:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: <1119441727.42b9533f3d34c@webmail.shef.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:02:07 +0100 Disposition-Notification-To: R.Forrest@sheffield.ac.uk From: A R W Forrest To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cc: tiaft-ml@tiaft.org Subject: [forens] In vitro or in vivo formation of Dihydocodeine from codeine??? MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2 Organization: University of Sheffield X-Originating-IP: 143.167.2.64 X-Sophie-Scan: No X-Trusted-Sender-Host: drake.shef.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I currently have a case where we have found a very low concentration (about 35 ug/L by GC) of dihydocodeine in post mortem bile from a case where death occured after several days in hospital and there was no Rx with dihydocodeine in hospital and no known Rx with Dihydocodeine before hospital admission. Also present in the bile was metronidazole. No Dihydrocodeine was detectable in post mortem blood. Death seems to have been due to multiorgan failure in association with an ill defined autoimmune process. Normally I wouldn't consider the possibilility of dihydrocodeine being produced in vitro or in vivo by the reduction of codeine, but the circumstances of this current case, which I can't be explicit about, make me want to consider that as a possibility. Some of the metabolites of Metronidazole are very electophilic which may be relevant. Comments & thoughts all welcome. I can't find anything in the literature on in vivo or in vitro production of dihydrocodeine from codeine. Robert Forrest Sheffield UK [EndPost by A R W Forrest ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 22 11:26:41 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5MFQfcW022255 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5MFQfi8022254 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:26:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: mail.bcpl.net: cdef owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:26:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdef@mail To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] In vitro or in vivo formation of Dihydocodeine from codeine??? In-Reply-To: <1119441727.42b9533f3d34c@webmail.shef.ac.uk> Message-ID: References: <1119441727.42b9533f3d34c@webmail.shef.ac.uk> X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I have found references to two dihydrocodeine compounds. One is dihydrocodeine tartrate which is an analgesic derivative of codeine and mainly used as an antitussive. And dihydrocodeinone, also known as hydrocodone (Lortab, Vicodin), which is a semi-synthetic opioid produced by altering the structure of morphine. As you know, codeine is mostly metabolized to nor-codeine-6-glucuronide, codeine-6-glurcuronide (81%), and morphine, so what you have found in the gallbladder is most likely due to the semi-synthetic compound. On the outside chance that there could posssibly be some production of dihydrocodeine through metabolism of codeine, I would suspect it to be a very small amount (as you have found), but you would likely find the other more copious codeine metabolites along with it. So, in view of the absence of other metabolites, I would suspect this to be a pure semi-synthetic dihydrocodeine compound. My information says that metronidazole acts as an inhibitor of metabolism of drugs metabolized by the 2C9, whereas codeine is metabolized by the 2D6 enzyme, so there probably wouldn't be any significant interference in metabolism, but I'm not familiar with the properties of the metabolites of metronidazole. Carol Define MD On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, A R W Forrest wrote: > I currently have a case where we have found a very low concentration (about 35 > ug/L by GC) of dihydocodeine in post mortem bile from a case where death > occured after several days in hospital and there was no Rx with dihydocodeine > in hospital and no known Rx with Dihydocodeine before hospital admission. Also > present in the bile was metronidazole. No Dihydrocodeine was detectable in post > mortem blood. Death seems to have been due to multiorgan failure in association > with an ill defined autoimmune process. > > Normally I wouldn't consider the possibilility of dihydrocodeine being produced > in vitro or in vivo by the reduction of codeine, but the circumstances of this > current case, which I can't be explicit about, make me want to consider that as > a possibility. Some of the metabolites of Metronidazole are very electophilic > which may be relevant. > > Comments & thoughts all welcome. I can't find anything in the literature on in > vivo or in vitro production of dihydrocodeine from codeine. > > Robert Forrest > Sheffield UK > > [EndPost by A R W Forrest ] > [EndPost by Carol Define MD ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 22 13:56:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5MHu7cW025429 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5MHu6O4025428 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:56:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: HChipW@aol.com Message-ID: <1f2.c39488e.2feb002b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:55:55 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] In vitro or in vivo formation of Dihydocodeine from codeine??? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5117 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Robert, look up the name DHC in Baselt's, it's a metabolite of hydrocodone H Chip Walls University of Miami Sch of Medicine Forensic ToxLab 12500 SW 152 nd Street Miami, FL 33177 V 305-232-7020 F 305-232-7461 M 786-457-2321 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by HChipW@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Jun 22 19:07:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5MN72cW029841 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5MN71WJ029840 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:07:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=C8TAp41YmKyBmoK1SMmB1ayjGIL/08v+8SsZlJMU0lcKOuEC+N1F/wMYpTmSGMMrcHLhWuHuooBgV7o+oJ67Zq5CyPH1H8FeoN7Cru9chm6tSG1sHPSNBojrlE8D5+6JLsghPGKviv9YckOcQe9bNobkZgCNPX5xFLmZ24Httnw= ; Message-ID: <20050622230657.87842.qmail@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:06:57 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Mr. Turvey, The information I have posted on this topic is not false. There are numerous broken links, especially those for "critical" documents like Mr. Walter's testimony in the Robie Drake case. My information regarding your testimony in Cobb comes from the appeal opinion posted on your site. If you have a problem with the accuracy of the court's use of the words "proffer" in connection with your testimony, or the trial judge finding that you failed to examine all of the physical evidence in the case and that you failed to visit the crime scene, you should take it up with the respective courts. Then again, if that information is incorrect, it simply proves my point that sometimes the "facts" cited in an appellate opinion aren't necessarily all of the facts, or even the right ones. As for my decision to post anonymously over the Internet, I don't have an Internet based business and, therefore, I have no need to trumpet my name and personal information all over this forum. L. DeShong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 22 19:28:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5MNSocW002051 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5MNSo1J002050 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:28:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:28:41 +1000 From: Wayne Petherick Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? In-reply-to: <20050622230657.87842.qmail@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <0III004LUEJVKT@staff.bond.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-index: AcV3gAj57l+7WQWmQmeim/SVcKDIqQAAearw Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu "L", I have just downloaded the documents for Walter's perjury in the Drake case and opened them fine. They are not broken as you suggest but require Windows Picture and Fax viewer or the jfax software. Regards, Wayne -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Thursday, 23 June 2005 9:07 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Mr. Turvey, The information I have posted on this topic is not false. There are numerous broken links, especially those for "critical" documents like Mr. Walter's testimony in the Robie Drake case. My information regarding your testimony in Cobb comes from the appeal opinion posted on your site. If you have a problem with the accuracy of the court's use of the words "proffer" in connection with your testimony, or the trial judge finding that you failed to examine all of the physical evidence in the case and that you failed to visit the crime scene, you should take it up with the respective courts. Then again, if that information is incorrect, it simply proves my point that sometimes the "facts" cited in an appellate opinion aren't necessarily all of the facts, or even the right ones. As for my decision to post anonymously over the Internet, I don't have an Internet based business and, therefore, I have no need to trumpet my name and personal information all over this forum. L. DeShong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by Wayne Petherick ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 22 20:00:05 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5N005cW005145 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5N005aV005144 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:00:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:21 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Mime-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5N005cW005146 Responder on the List to CSI Effect, Please limit your responses to the phenomena of the CSI Effect. While to some, the banter back and forth over tainted testimony and fraudulent credentials may be of interest, it really has nothing to do with the posted subject header. If you want to begin a new discussion thread, then please title it appropriately. I thank you for your consideration. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist, Major Crimes Unit Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division 1300 18th Street, 4th Floor Bakersfield, CA 93301 Office Phone: (661) 868-5659 Office FAX: (661) 868-5675 Cellular Phone: (661) 979-5548 e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us >>> wpetheri@staff.bond.edu.au 6/22/2005 4:28:41 PM >>> "L", I have just downloaded the documents for Walter's perjury in the Drake case and opened them fine. They are not broken as you suggest but require Windows Picture and Fax viewer or the jfax software. Regards, Wayne -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Thursday, 23 June 2005 9:07 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] CSIE Effect - T/F? Mr. Turvey, The information I have posted on this topic is not false. There are numerous broken links, especially those for "critical" documents like Mr. Walter's testimony in the Robie Drake case. My information regarding your testimony in Cobb comes from the appeal opinion posted on your site. If you have a problem with the accuracy of the court's use of the words "proffer" in connection with your testimony, or the trial judge finding that you failed to examine all of the physical evidence in the case and that you failed to visit the crime scene, you should take it up with the respective courts. Then again, if that information is incorrect, it simply proves my point that sometimes the "facts" cited in an appellate opinion aren't necessarily all of the facts, or even the right ones. As for my decision to post anonymously over the Internet, I don't have an Internet based business and, therefore, I have no need to trumpet my name and personal information all over this forum. L. DeShong __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by Wayne Petherick ] BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Greg Laskowski TEL;WORK:868-5659 ORG:District Attorney;District Attorney - Forensic Science Division TEL;PREF;FAX:868-5675 EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:GLaskows.DACRIMPO.DADOMAIN N:Laskowski;Greg TITLE:Supervising Criminalist END:VCARD --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- [EndPost by "Greg Laskowski" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 23 05:28:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5N9SmcW010548 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5N9Sml3010547 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:28:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.19.185] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: "Forensic Newsgroup" Subject: [forens] DNA analysis from formaline fixed tissue Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:58:07 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2005 09:28:36.0531 (UTC) FILETIME=[EEA2C030:01C577D5] X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5N9SmcW010549 June 23, 2005 Dear List, I have an interesting problem at hand, and I would love to have answers from the list. A patient approached a doctor (A) for some problem, who took the biopsy (of breast) and reported carcinoma. The patient subsequently approached two other doctors (B and C) for second and third opinions respectively. Both doctors took biopsies independently and reported that the patient is normal. The patient sued the first doctor (A) for wrong diagnosis. A is alleging that the other doctors (B and C) have purposely (or perhaps inadvertently) switched the tissue block with some other block. THe only solution out is for the police to seize all blocks/slides in the possession of the three doctors, take DNA samples from the patient, and get DNA testing from all. That - to my mind - is the only way to resolve this issue. My question is "is it technically possible to do DNA profiling from a formaline fixed tissue block/slide". If yes, who will do it and at what cost? Please let me know. Thanks. Regards Anil Aggrawal Forensic Pathologist Maulana Azad Medical College New Delhi India --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 23 07:47:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5NBlkcW011726 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5NBlkKt011725 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:47:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CXKj7RGTEg4eBWG5aVk3m3mkDWANwii/KqOlpQ/h+JxPUl+nAEeXW/gDYk/xlrpSNz/FOg5lVxQtbEuzDgoxTEil77b8ycM9/OVGrSFsyTorj6zbQSkFUAtWUq1WWCKl46UnWDmwz9NkhZgnu60vhh3uQ/Tgbgh2ZfqLEUOhC14= ; Message-ID: <20050623114739.15464.qmail@web50501.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:47:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Sliter Subject: Re: [forens] DNA analysis from formaline fixed tissue To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Yes. Testing could be done either on the sectioned tissue recovered from a microscope slide, or from the tissue block that was sectioned. The main consideration in whether the testing would be successful or not is how long the tissue was fixed prior to dehydration and imbedding. For biopsy tissue, that time period should be relatively short, I would imagine. The testing procedure is really the same as for any other specimen for forensic DNA comparison. The cost of deparafinizing the tissue is trivial. Timothy J. Sliter, Ph.D. Institute of Forensic Sciences Dallas, Texas --- Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote: > June 23, 2005 > Dear List, > I have an interesting problem at hand, and I would > love to have answers from > > the list. > > A patient approached a doctor (A) for some problem, > who took the biopsy (of > > breast) and reported carcinoma. The patient > subsequently approached two other > > doctors (B and C) for second and third opinions > respectively. Both doctors > > took biopsies independently and reported that the > patient is normal. > > The patient sued the first doctor (A) for wrong > diagnosis. A is alleging that > > the other doctors (B and C) have purposely (or > perhaps inadvertently) switched > > the tissue block with some other block. > > THe only solution out is for the police to seize all > blocks/slides in the > > possession of the three doctors, take DNA samples > from the patient, and get > > DNA testing from all. That - to my mind - is the > only way to resolve this > > issue. > > My question is "is it technically possible to do DNA > profiling from a > > formaline fixed tissue block/slide". > > If yes, who will do it and at what cost? > > Please let me know. Thanks. > > Regards > Anil Aggrawal > Forensic Pathologist > Maulana Azad Medical College > New Delhi > India > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" > ] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [EndPost by Tim Sliter ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 23 14:30:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5NIUxcW019218 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:30:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5NIUxFI019217 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:30:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: <01ba01c57821$a5b20b50$cc531dac@SMHPC6694> From: "Dr. Bhushan M. Kapur" To: "Forensic_L" Subject: [forens] Drug levels in blood collected in plastic vacutainers Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:30:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5NIUxcW019219 Blood samples taken in tubes containing gel separators can give lower results for many drugs. I have personally tested this for serum methadone. All my comparison studies were done using glass tubes with and without gel separators. We have long since taken blood in red-top glass vacationer for all TDM drugs. Now because of safety reason we would like to change over to plastic tubes for our TDM work. Question: Has any one tested blood collected in plastic tubes, with and without the gel separators? Does plastic has any impact on drug levels? I know that some of the Drugs of abuse (e.g cannabinoids) do get adsorbed to plastic. bhushan -------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Bhushan M. Kapur, D.Phil, C.Chem, FRSC, FACB, FCACB b.kapur@utoronto.ca Assistant Professor of Clinical Biochemistry Departments of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology St. Michael's Hospital and Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto & Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology The Hospital for Sick Children homepage: http://www.clinitox.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Dr. Bhushan M. Kapur" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 24 01:08:28 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5O58ScW000091 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5O58SsI000090 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:08:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [203.101.19.157] X-Originating-Email: [dr_anil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dr_anil@hotmail.com From: "Professor Anil Aggrawal" To: "Forensic Newsgroup" Cc: Subject: [forens] Some queries about gunpowder Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:38:20 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2096 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 05:08:22.0111 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE2116F0:01C5787A] X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5O58ScW000092 Dear Group, I have some queries on gunpowder. Traditionally we have been teaching our undergraduate students that 1 gm of black powder produces around 3000-4500 cc of gas and 1 gm of smokeless powder produces 12000-13000 cc of gas. Recently a student has shown me the following site http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm It is an authentic site as far as I know. The site tells us that " Blackpowder is a comparatively inefficient powder. One gram of blackpowder gives you 718 calories of heat, 270 cubic centimeters of gas". This is a large difference than what we have been teaching traditionally. Can someone clarify please. Thanks. Sincerely, Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 26465460, 26413101 http://www.geradts.com/anil dr_anil@hotmail.com *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] From forens-owner Fri Jun 24 11:58:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5OFwMcW008234 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5OFwMbs008233 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:58:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050624174336.02e781c0@box4.tin.it> X-Sender: mmvefors@box4.tin.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:58:13 +0200 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: Morin Subject: Re: [forens] Some queries about gunpowder In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu At 10.38 24/06/05 +0530, you wrote: >Dear Group, >I have some queries on gunpowder. >Traditionally we have been teaching our undergraduate students that 1 gm >of black powder produces around 3000-4500 cc of gas and 1 gm of smokeless >powder produces 12000-13000 cc of gas. > >Recently a student has shown me the following site > >http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm > >It is an authentic site as far as I know. > >The site tells us that " Blackpowder is a comparatively inefficient >powder. One gram of blackpowder gives you 718 calories of heat, 270 cubic >centimeters of gas". > >This is a large difference than what we have been teaching traditionally. > >Can someone clarify please. >Thanks. > >Sincerely, >Professor Anil Aggrawal >Professor of Forensic Medicine >Maulana Azad Medical College >S-299 Greater Kailash-1 >New Delhi-110048 >INDIA >Phone: 26465460, 26413101 >http://www.geradts.com/anil >dr_anil@hotmail.com > >*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell >them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when >the top doctors have failed!* > `\|||/ > (@@) >ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ >_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| >___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ >_____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >[EndPost by "Professor Anil Aggrawal" ] The information given in chuckhawks.com is quite correct. In Davis' classic The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives we find, for 1 gram, the following values: 718.1 calories and 271.3 cc Of course values can vary slightly between different makes of black powder. Best wishes. Prof. Marco Morin S. Polo 2705/A 30125 Venice - Italy tel. +39 041 5244103 fax +39 041 719027 - 5244103 [EndPost by Morin ] From forens-owner Sun Jun 26 11:11:31 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5QFBUcW010074 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5QFBUS4010073 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:11:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: cbasten owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:57:09 EDT Subject: Submerged Vehicle Fingerprint Recovery Experiment* Final Notice of Participation Submerged Vehicle Fingerprint Recovery Experiment* Final Notice of Participation Greetings - The following agencies / Departments have confirmed their participation in the project. If your agency or group is NOT listed and you do wish to participate you must contact me ASAP! If yours is listed you are confirmed and have accepted the commitment to fulfill the expectations of the project. If you are listed in error, please let us know ASAP. I will send the final list of confirmed participants to Tri-Tech Inc sometime next week. If you are not listed below and still wish to participate you must confirm immediately. Contact me at _psdivermonthly@aol.com_ (mailto:psdivermonthly@aol.com) . Mark Phillips Editor / Publisher _www.PSDivermonthly.com_ (http://www.psdivermonthly.com/) **************** CONFIRMED / COMMITTED PARTICIPANTS Beaumont Police Department Elk Grove Village FD - Lake McHenry County Dive Rescue Team -Wonder Lake FPD Water Rescue Team Fargo Police Department Florida State University Galveston Police Department Jacksonville State University Police Department Lenawee County Sheriffs Office North Carolina Underwater Response Team Victoria Police - Melbourne Australia Wake County Public Safety --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html application/pdf --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Mon Jun 27 06:21:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RALmcW021714 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5RALm6x021713 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:21:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:21:31 -0300 From: "Dr. Adolfo Scatena" Subject: [forens] Rubber pellets To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <42BFD32B.00000A.02224@PENTIUM4> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: IncrediMail (4001874) X-Priority: 3 X-FID: 67FCF433-5D0D-11D4-AF93-0050DAC67E11 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0525-5, 25/06/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-imss-version: 2.028 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:9.22602 C:2 M:3 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:2 C:2 M:2 S:2 R:2 (0.1500 0.1500) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=Windows-1252 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To list members: I am looking after this article: Misslietz,J. and Lindermann, A Gunshot wounds caused by Fiocchi Anti-crime Cartridges. Am J. Forensic. Med Tah, 12(3) 209-212, 1991 Unfortunately the page of the American Journal goes up to 1961 as does several other pages of the Web were I investigated. I would appreciate if any of the members could provide my with a reprint or copy of this paper. I am willing to pay for it. Or in the other hand direct me where to look for. Thankfully Dr Adolfo Scatena medico forense 2a. Circunscripcion Judicial Prov de Rio Negro, Argentina --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif image/gif --- [EndPost by "Dr. Adolfo Scatena" ] From forens-owner Tue Jun 28 11:43:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5SFhwcW016823 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5SFhw2D016822 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:43:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:42:55 -0700 From: "Mary Likins" Subject: [forens] gun expert needed To: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j5SFhwcW016817 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks to all who responded to my previous post regarding the arson case. Your comments were all much appreciated! I have another request to make. An attorney in Central California is looking for a firearms expert who is willing to examine a handgun in a case he is handling pro bono. He believes the individual to be factually innocent of the charges for which he was convicted. Law enforcement authorities holding the gun have given permission for this exam to take place. The expert would need to examine the gun to look for a certain material to be present in one of the chambers that would support the defendant's claim of innocence. The gun has not been examined before. Unfortunately, there is no money to pay this expert at this time. This is a post-conviction case and the attorney is pursuing the factual innocence claim without compensation. If the case progresses well, there is a possibility of the court approving some expert fees down the line, but this is by no means certain. The attorney tells me he thinks this will require one day of the expert's time. If there are any firearms experts in CA who might be willing to do this exam, please contact me and I will put you in touch with the attorney handling the case. I don't know about the possibility of sending the gun to an expert out of the area, but I would certainly look into that if there was an expert located elsewhere who is willing to take a look at the gun. Thanks once again, Mary Likins Mary Likins, RN, LNC Forensic Nurse/Case Manager Northern California Innocence Project Santa Clara University School of Law 900 Lafayette Street Suite 604 Santa Clara, CA 95050 (408) 554-5239 mlikins@scu.edu This message scanned for viruses and SPAM at SCU (MGW2) [EndPost by "Mary Likins" ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 29 20:35:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5U0ZYcW014657 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5U0ZYoO014656 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:35:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=UcKjoPEJjsXqa91USkpwE9wcRzlk5OT0P48vD3dpYcNdwS0RVo9HF2Rk4XW8DgLO3jNLUoV6clclt+LBNWs+tl7OBMp1E6coP9bhgsb0wXWUnyN2mH/B/v9CLJDG3XapAsCCWJehVvlvVv29keGzLEcZbxIk/cL8n38IKpXHcTU= ; Message-ID: <20050630003529.11553.qmail@web33804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:35:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Webster Subject: [forens] DNA Analysis/Crime Scene Hands on Courses To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I am in Southern California (LAX) and am interested in taking classes to learn crime lab procedures and especially the DNA Analysis part. Are there any schools that offer this on a part time basis or on course by course basis that includes lab work? I am willing to drive within 30-40 mile radius if need be. Please post any info/links that may be of help. I do have strong background in science (Bio/Chemistry) but not the Crime Lab DNA Analysis part. Are there such classes held elsewhere in the country that go for a week or so and they are able to cover most of it? Thank you. Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Tim Webster ] From forens-owner Wed Jun 29 21:58:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5U1w6cW016473 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5U1w6Vf016472 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:58:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: FORENSIC022@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:57:53 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] DNA Analysis/Crime Scene Hands on Courses To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 2230 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Tim - My suggestion would be to go to the websites of your local colleges and universities. Forensic Science programs are popping up all over the country. Enroll in an undergraduate Introduction to Forensic Science course. These courses touch on each of the disciplines of Forensic Science, including DNA analysis. Some also incorporate a certain amount of laboratory work. If you are looking to learn as much about forensic science as possible in a week, then attend the next annual meeting of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (go to _www.AAFS.org_ (http://www.AAFS.org) for more information). You could also do a Google search for Knowledge Solutions. They have online workshops/courses including one dealing with forensic DNA analysis. I completed their DNA course while I was a serologist and found it worthwhile. Brad Brown Forensic Scientist III New York State Police Forensic Investigation Center 1220 Washington Ave., Building 30 Albany, NY 12226 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by FORENSIC022@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Jun 29 22:22:23 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5U2MNcW017255 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5U2MNaT017254 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:22:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rocketmail.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nDkWPPw3UTIOSW5DZj2QqUQ3NnIkOGogvRNW3MNkvFwqxbsfavfy1j8UL6Wm56X3Z26RncUg05HxV8oijEkAgEktlXi9ugOPu1yYF5HSQ8ShXHu524xust6T0AWrR8i7KzUx+bla1CJ5QTSeXUq9wvP3njlwAYWDC221lL/HiCo= ; Message-ID: <20050630022223.73559.qmail@web20522.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:22:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Abercrombie Subject: Re: [forens] DNA Analysis/Crime Scene Hands on Courses To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <20050630003529.11553.qmail@web33804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Tim, Cal-State LA (CSU-LA) has subtantially expanded their long-time existing forensic science program. Additionally, it's my understanding that their program will soon be officially affiliated/associated w/ both the LAPD Crime Lab as well as the LASO Crime Lab. Check w/ them - I'm sure you can get info on the "DNA Analysis part" - - and it's w/in the limits of your mileage radius. As to covering 'most of it within a week', well, considering that it takes anywhere from a few months to a year for a criminalist to become a fledgling DNA jockey - I'd say that during any one week period you couldn't get "most of it". Tom Abercrombie Criminalist Supervisor Oakland Police Department Crime Lab Oakland, CA --- Tim Webster wrote: > I am in Southern California (LAX) and am interested > in taking classes to learn crime lab procedures and > especially the DNA Analysis part. Are there any > schools that offer this on a part time basis or on > course by course basis that includes lab work? I am > willing to drive within 30-40 mile radius if need > be. Please post any info/links that may be of help. > I do have strong background in science > (Bio/Chemistry) but not the Crime Lab DNA Analysis > part. > Are there such classes held elsewhere in the country > that go for a week or so and they are able to cover > most of it? > > Thank you. Tim > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by Tim Webster ] > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com [EndPost by Tom Abercrombie ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 30 13:08:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5UH8YcW006293 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j5UH8YuC006292 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:08:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=i2UwbtF8PCYpjk22YbTztcS5cZHw4xP+ry8l4ZW0XSiCpEMjr5IsWoE++ROvvEz741KFYS7bee3ZtipVT00G3SICAFDistQMcAliBwnOyF6ZC6xWFBtOA2G45ucI14TP7wdsMQlJZijVfBvlF5+nRjrQa9gs301MCdt0TMTmXBI= ; Message-ID: <20050630170827.79562.qmail@web33602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) From: kristi johnson Subject: Re: [forens] DNA Analysis/Crime Scene Hands on Courses To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <20050630022223.73559.qmail@web20522.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hello Mr. Abercrombie, I read your post and noticed that you work for the Oakland Police Department Crime Lab. I live in Oakland and have been looking for an internship and I was wondering if you could help me out. I'm not sure where to start or who to talk to. If you could point me in the right direction or if you have a need for an intern, please let me know. Thank you, Kristi Johnson Tom Abercrombie wrote: Tim, Cal-State LA (CSU-LA) has subtantially expanded their long-time existing forensic science program. Additionally, it's my understanding that their program will soon be officially affiliated/associated w/ both the LAPD Crime Lab as well as the LASO Crime Lab. Check w/ them - I'm sure you can get info on the "DNA Analysis part" - - and it's w/in the limits of your mileage radius. As to covering 'most of it within a week', well, considering that it takes anywhere from a few months to a year for a criminalist to become a fledgling DNA jockey - I'd say that during any one week period you couldn't get "most of it". Tom Abercrombie Criminalist Supervisor Oakland Police Department Crime Lab Oakland, CA --- Tim Webster wrote: > I am in Southern California (LAX) and am interested > in taking classes to learn crime lab procedures and > especially the DNA Analysis part. Are there any > schools that offer this on a part time basis or on > course by course basis that includes lab work? I am > willing to drive within 30-40 mile radius if need > be. Please post any info/links that may be of help. > I do have strong background in science > (Bio/Chemistry) but not the Crime Lab DNA Analysis > part. > Are there such classes held elsewhere in the country > that go for a week or so and they are able to cover > most of it? > > Thank you. Tim > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by Tim Webster ] > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com [EndPost by Tom Abercrombie ] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by kristi johnson ] From forens-owner Thu Jun 30 21:50:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j611oAcW029922 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id j611oA9w029921 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:50:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu: MajorDomo set sender to owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu using -f From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:50:01 EDT Subject: [forens] Job Opportunity @ NFSTC To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu CC: liz.yourkievitz@nfstc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id j611oBcW029923 Please post this or share it with anyone who may be interested AND who meets the qualifications, Thanks, David Epstein National Forensic Science Technology Center, Inc. Largo, FL Employment Opportunity: Physical Scientist – Analytical Chemist POSITION DETAILS The position is responsible to function as a technical resource for forensic analytical chemistry through laboratory expertise, including conduct of chemical and physical laboratory tests of solid materials, liquids, and gases, as well as observation, data analysis and result interpretation. Incumbent will maintain NFSTC laboratories and participate as a team member for designated scientific work teams and outreach programs through technical support and assigned program activities. Position also functions as the Safety Officer for the organization including coordination of safety training. Anticipated responsibility allocation is expected as follows: Lab Support 70% Provide oversight and hands-on delivery of laboratory testing in the area of forensic chemistry, including but not limited to: · Design, carryout, document, and review experiments and make recommendations for approval of validation test methods. Prepare chemical and biological samples for testing. Test and analyze materials and substances such as ignitable liquids, controlled substances, polymers, biological materials, and physical items. Interpret and document results of tests and analyses. · Lead the Laboratory QA program under the guidance of the Laboratory Manager. Draft, implement, revise and maintain the laboratory quality manual. Design and implement laboratory logbooks. · Set up and perform maintenance on laboratory equipment and instrumentation required for tests, or instruction including troubleshooting, repair, tuning, calibrations, and running controls. Instruction and demonstration of instrumentation and scientific analysis techniques; Maintain stocks of chemicals, general laboratory wares, and test kits. Purchase supplies for laboratory. Arrange for transport and proper disposal for chemical and biological waste. · Cross-train for support in other forensic science disciplines (specifically DNA) as necessitated by program delivery requirements. Project Work Team Support 15 % · Participate in scientific work teams as forensic technical resource and contribute to program/presentation delivery process to include but not limited to presentations, posters, etc. (including public speaking presentations) and development and delivery of laboratory training to NFSTC staff & stakeholders as directed. Safety Program 15 % Maintain and oversee the NFSTC Safety Program including but not limited to: · Review/Revision of Workplace Safety Plans; Exposure Control Plan; & Chemical Hygiene Plans. · Coordinate safety training for all employees - including orientation for new hires and safety presentations/training; Participate in safety classes/workshops. · Maintain Safety Manual and maintain safety related compliance records, including MSDS, investigations, inspections, etc. Perform routine safety inspections & investigate unsafe work practices. EDUCATION & EXPERIENCE · Bachelor’s degree in Chemistry, Biochemistry, Forensic Science or related field required. · Minimum five (3) years of broad experience in analytical chemistry in a forensic science testing laboratory. · American Board of Criminalistics certification preferred. PROFESSIONAL & TECHNICAL SKILLS · Awareness of guidelines and standards for OSHA and laboratory safety requirements required. Certification or documented experience as a Safety Officer or member of a Safety Program team preferred. · Demonstrated experience in project team participation for design, development, and delivery of technical documentation (such as procedures & protocols), laboratory training, or scientific presentations. · Standard office software (Microsoft Office Suite preferred) and Technical Laboratory instrumentation principles and software proficiency to include but not limited to GC/MS (Varian preferred), FTIR, HPLC, & UV Spectrophotometry. PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCIES The incumbent must have excellent attention to detail; effective interpersonal skills for positive communication with all levels of personnel, clients and vendors; dynamic customer service skills; proven ability to interact constructively as a team member and work independently; and demonstrated proficiency for performance of multi-task activities and short-notice deadlines. BENEFITS & COMPENSATION This is a full time, exempt level position at NFSTC with eligibility for the NFSTC health and retirement benefits package. The position pay grade is equivalent to the federal GS locality pay scale RUS-10 (_http://www.opm.gov/oca/05tables/html/RUS.asp_ (http://www.opm.gov/oca/05tables/html/RUS.asp) ) Qualified candidates should forward a message indicating interest and attach a resume via e-mail to _liz.yourkievitz@nfstc.org_ (mailto:liz.yourkievitz@nfstc.org) or fax to 727-549-6070 by 5 PM EDT, July 22, 2005. NFSTC utilizes Equal Employment Opportunity guidelines. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LeonStein@aol.com]