From forens-owner Fri Aug 1 09:42:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h71DgE04029785 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030801134207.41091.qmail@web41007.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:42:07 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Subject: [forens] Re: [forens-l] New ASTM Standards for Document Examinations To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Colleagues: ASTM Committee E30 on Forensic Sciences is pleased to announce the publication of seven new standards for the forensic examination of questioned documents. The standards listed below were developed by the Scientific Working Group for Forensic Document Examination (SWGDOC), working as a task group of E30. The SWGDOC draft standards were then ballotted through the ASTM International standards development process, first through Subcommittee E 30.02, chaired by Carl McClary of the Bureau of ATF, and then through the Main Committee. This allowed the widest possible participation of the forensic science community in the development of these standards. ASTM's Committee on Standards gave final approval to the standards in April, and they are now available from ASTM. The standards are: E 2285-03 Guide for the Examination of Mechanical Checkwriter Impressions E 2286-03 Guide for the Examination of Dry Seal Impressions E 2287-03 Guide for the Examination of Fracture Patterns and Paper Fiber Impressions on Single-Strike Film Ribbons and Typed Text E 2288-03 Guide for the Physical Match of Paper Cuts, Tears, and Perforations in Forensic Document Examinations E 2289-03 Guide for the Examination of Indented Rubberstamps and Their Impressions E 2290-03 Guide for the Examination of Handwritten Items E 2291-03 Guide for Examination of Indentations Through a joint venture with NIJ, the Forensic Research Network, and NFSTC, copies of these standards (and all other current E30 standards)will be mailed at no charge to all publicly funded forensic science laboratories in the US. The mailing will take place this month. Carl McClary, Subcommittee E30.02, the participants in SWGDOC, and SWGDOC's sponsors at the FBI Lab should be congratulated for this significant contribution to forensic science. John J.Lentini, F-ABC Chair, ASTM Committee on Forensic Sciences ASTM Committee E30 on Forensic Sciences was formed in 1970. E30 meets once a year, in conjunction with AAFS, with approximately 100 members attending two days of meetings. The committee, with current membership of approximately 500, currently has jurisdiction of 48 standards, published in the Annual Book of ASTM Standards, Volume 14.02. These standards have and continue to play a preeminent role in all aspects to forensic sciences, including criminalistics, questioned documents, forensic engineering, fire debris analysis, drug testing analysis, and collection and preservation of physical evidence. For more information, go to http://www.astm.org. ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 [EndPost by John Lentini ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 1 20:04:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h72040M9011770 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:04:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Fingerprints Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:05:01 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000201c35889$b80699b0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2003 00:03:53.0498 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F54F7A0:01C35889] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu It does, thanks. With that clarification, we are in general agreement. However, often in science one must proceed with a premise until the premise is proven false. This is basic to the scientific method, and is the essence of testing hypotheses. So long as experiments continue to support, and do not refute, the hypothesis, you must proceed under the assumption that the hypothesis is correct. The assumption assumes the weight of virtual fact when it has accumulated a vast amount of supporting evidence, and contradicted by none. Even then, one cannot properly say the hypothesis is "proven" because as I've repeatedly explained, nothing can be absolutely "proven" via experimentation, only supported or refuted. Everything in science remains open to further testing and scrutiny. This truism is also basic to the scientific method and all scientific theory. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent Turvey Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 7:15 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Fingerprints Bob; We may be having a miscommunication here. Or maybe not. We should try and find out. I accept the reasoning behind the argument that no two fingerprints have ever been found to be alike and that biological randomness provides for uniqueness. I am making no argument to the contrary. My problem is with fingerprint analysis as it is performed by analysts in practice (the errors and fallility inherent in current techiniques as applied in actual comparative casework). What I continue to find ignorant is the argument that anything is proven in any discipline or field because nobody has found problems with it yet. It is not a legitimate argument at any time; it is a shield to further scientific scrutiny. Hope that helps clarify, Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Parsons Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:58 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Fingerprints You seem to miss the point entirely, Brent. The article below further supports what everyone here has been saying in support of fingerprint uniqueness - i.e., that fingerprints are in fact unique but that fingerprint examiners sometimes make mistakes in comparing them. You have offered no evidence to indicate there is anything unreliable about fingerprints as a basis for identification, only that fingerprint examiners can come to erroneous conclusions. The latter is a given that no one has disputed. You also understate the argument that you find so "ignorant." It is not simply that nothing has yet been found "wrong" with fingerprint identification - it is that no evidence to falsify the premise that fingerprints are unique has been found after many millions or even billions of tests; and again, in this case even that extreme amount of supporting evidence does not stand alone - it is further supported by knowledge of developmental biology, which is actually the stronger evidence. The two bodies of evidence together allow the conclusion that fingerprints are unique. To deny such a conclusion is proper is also to deny every established principle of science as proper, because they were all established in exactly the same way -- by establishing a theory, building a wealth of evidence in support of it, and finding no evidence to the contrary. For example, one cannot "prove" the principle of evolution is correct, but in the presence of a huge amount of evidence in support and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it is considered an established fact - and rightly so, unless or until evidence to the contrary is found. Are there problems in fingerprint identification? Certainly, as there are in every other profession. But that doesn't mean that the underlying principles of those professions are necessarily in doubt. We don't declare cataract surgery unreliable simply because a small percentage of operations fail - it has been established as a highly successful and reliable procedure, in spite of the occasional failure, by a wealth of professional experience and an enormous volume of unblemished successes. So has fingerprint analysis. The principle itself is sound; its application is what sometimes goes astray. So let's stop the nonsense and address the real cause for concern - the need for standardized guidelines in training, oversight, and practice. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent Turvey Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 7:39 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Fingerprints Members; This article seems to be relevant here. It talks about the Rick Jackson case out of Pennsylvania. One argument I am particularly tired of - that if their were anything wrong with fingerprint analysis it would have been spotted it by now - I find particularly ignorant. This is not a legitimate argument for reliability or validity. It is the reasoning of a zealot, not a scientist. Brent Fingerprints: Infallible Evidence? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/16/60minutes/main563607.shtml July 20, 2003 [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 1 20:06:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h72062K3011870 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:06:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] RE: [forens} fingerprints Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:07:17 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000301c3588a$09596310$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200307260220.TAA19350@scn.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2003 00:06:09.0920 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0A55000:01C35889] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I think you have hit on the crux of the real matter. I strongly suspect that when examiners make errors, it is usually in regard to partial or poor quality prints. An examiner who made errors with good-quality full prints would be unlikely to ever make it out of training to be approved for solo work. As you say, there is no question that the pattern on each finger of each person is unique (thanks for wording that so precisely - perfect!), but not all lifted prints are necessarily of a quality that is identifiable or distinguishable from another poor quality print. As I tried to explain in a previous post, research to address concerns about examiner error should focus on partial or low-quality prints. This may reveal the scope of any existing problem with general examiner proficiency. Unfortunately, it still will not produce a valid, usable "error rate" for the "technique" of fingerprint identification, because it will not be predictive of an individual examiner's performance in a specific case. Measurable error rates of the kind referred to in Daubert can only be determined for analytical techniques, not for human judgment. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Chesterene Cwiklik Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:20 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] RE: [forens} fingerprints Although the pattern on every finger may be unique, not every print of a finger has a unique attribution. There may be insufficient characteristics, or a print may not be of adequate quality (uneven pressure, numerous interruptions, etc.). Can we always be certain when that is the case? That, rather than the uniqueness of the patterns themselves, would be the more fruitful research topic. Using computerized databases to compare partial, light or spotty prints from the same finger could sprovide useful information. Those of us who perform shoeprint and other print and impression comparisons accept this as a reality, and traditionally express concern over the borderline area by reaching qualified conclusions - those that are short of being unique attributions or definitive exclusions. I'd be interested if anyone is doing either the research or the use of qualified conclusions in latent fingerprint comparisons. This has also come up with earprints. I worked on State of Washington v. Kunze several years ago along with Kay Sweeney, and we found at least one other good potential source for the earprint that Cor van der Lugt thought was uniquely attributable to the defendant. We agreed that the defendant was a possible source, but not a unique source. It was interesting to find another at least equally convincing potential source among the examplars available to Mr. van der Lugt. Fingerprints have a much longer history than earprints, and are well-established as reliable for personal identification. This does not preclude an interest in exploring the limitations encountered with less-than-perfect prints. Chesterene Cwiklik -- Cwiklik & Associates 2400 6th Avenue South #257 Seattle, WA 98134 (206)623-3637 FAX (206)623-4384 [EndPost by bi492@scn.org (Chesterene Cwiklik)] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 1 20:15:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h720FpYB012669 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Fingerprint uniqueness Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:17:04 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000701c3588b$66c21640$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2003 00:15:56.0123 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E0CCAB0:01C3588B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Bentley Atchison writes >"You have offered no evidence to indicate there is anything unreliable >about fingerprints as a basis for identification, only that fingerprint >examiners can come to erroneous conclusions. " > >I would have thought the reliability of any scientific test is judged by >the ability of the practitioners to get it correct rather than the >theory behind the test. I agree, but I was responding to an argument that fingerprints were not unique, and should be inadmissible because there was no established error rate for the technique. The alleged "proof" of this was that fingerprint examiners make mistakes. I simply pointed out the false premise and non sequitur conclusion in that argument. >Could you please cite some refereed developmental biology articles which >show that the environment in utero leads to unique partial fingeprints. >Personally, I find it difficult to even conceive an experiment to test >this hypothesis. I hope it is not just a circular argument ie., >fingerprints are unique therefore the in utero process forming the >fingerprints is unique. I never mentioned partial fingerprints in that particular discussion; I was referring to whole fingerprints. In fact, I echoed other people's concerns about partial prints, if they lacked sufficient detail for conclusive identification, and further agreed that what constitutes "sufficient detail" needs to be defined by the profession as part of establishing useful guidelines. I too cannot conceive of an experiment to test the hypothesis, as one comes back to the impossibility of "proving" uniqueness through experimentation - to do so, one would have to test every member of the test population, which in this case amounts to every human born. My conclusion of uniqueness comes from my understanding of the complexities of human developmental biology. I shall attempt to summarize that understanding with regard to fingerprint formation, and I invite your critique. To wit, I reprint the discussion I offered in January of 2002, the last time this topic came up: "Fingerprints are as much the result of environmental influences as they are of genetics. Genetics control the general patterns (i.e., the relative numbers of whorls, loops, and arches on a given person's fingers and toes), which is why different ethnic groups show different ratios of these patterns; but the specific pattern produced on a given digit depends on the microenvironment the digit was exposed to during fetal development. As the tissues are being formed, the skin on the fetus' digits comes into contact with the amniotic membrane, amniotic fluid and placenta, and with other parts of the fetus' own developing body as it moves in the womb. This contact influences the specific ridge pattern on each digit. Another difference in microenvironment has to do with the biochemical "broth" each developing cell in the body is surrounded by. All cells excrete biochemicals into their surrounding environment, and these chemicals interact with and influence the processes of other nearby cells. This is why stem cells, which have the potential to become any kind of body tissue, develop into distinctly different tissues, yet become the same type of cell within the same tissue. They are developmentally "nudged" into a given tissue pattern by hormonal and other biochemical influences, and then contribute to controlling each other's continued development into the same type of tissue by their close proximity to each other. But even within the same tissue there are subtle differences in the biochemical "broth" each cell is bathed in, so each cell will be very slightly different. Change the content of the broth to a greater extent and the differences between cells, and the tissues they are part of, will be greater. Since the microenvironment cannot be identical for the skin cells of any two digits on a hand or foot, no two of a person's own fingers or toes will have the exactly the same ridge pattern, much less be the same as the fingerprint of a twin or other person. Once the finger is fully formed, the pattern is set and will not change significantly during one's lifetime (except in the case of severe injury producing scar tissue), so each fingerprint is unique to the finger it is part of. Even if you could regenerate a lost finger (like salamanders grow new tails), the fingerprint on the new finger would not match the one on the severed finger (theoretically, that is - since we can't grow new fingers, we can't test this, but it should be true). Our environment continues to influence our body's characteristics as we age. While subtle and not enough to cause a "non-match" to younger fingerprints, our prints do change very slightly as we age. As we grow, use our hands and feet, gain and lose weight, and as skin elasticity is lost due to age, we also develop various creases in our skin, which makes for more visible differences. Divergent changes as we age affect our entire bodies. As a simple example of the continuing effects of environment, you may have noticed that even "identical" twins tend to start looking less alike as they get older." To the list at large and all interested parties: Bill Oliver gave a far more detailed explanation of all this about the same time I originally posted the above, and if desired I can repost Bill's discussion here with his permission (how about it, Billo?). In the meantime, it might be useful to review a very detailed discussion of this topic at a web site Billo recommended in his 2001 post. The link is still functional: http://www.ridgesandfurrows.homestead.com/Friction_Skin_Growth.html Finally, I enthusiastically recommend reading the letter by John Thornton which I mentioned again recently, published in the April 1986 issue (Vol. 31, No. 2) of the Journal of Forensic Science. In it, Thornton elegantly, eruditely, concisely and convincingly presents a mathematical "proof" of the basic paradigm "no two snowflakes are alike," in turn demonstrating the underlying principle that "Nature never repeats itself." His logic and calculations are impeccable, and the letter remains fascinating reading, as valid today as it was 17 years ago. By inference, I postulate that a similar mathematical proof might be devised in support of fingerprint uniqueness, provided that developmental biologists are able to offer some quantifiable estimate of the influences and variations in conditions existing within the womb. Should this be possible, I suspect the resulting figures would be equally convincing. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 1 23:27:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h723RcLW015088 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:27:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald L. Hurst" To: Subject: RE: [forens] RE: [forens} fingerprints Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: <007e01c358a5$9078f480$6401a8c0@austin.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000301c3588a$09596310$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu How do we know what the court meant by "measurable error rates"? In a recent study of death death row cases, the term was used by legal minds to describe the frequency of convictions based on various types of mistakes. I suspect that the judges who crafted the Daubert et seq dicta probably didn't know exactly what they meant themselves -- but were hoping that some degree of quantification might emerge in future testimony if "experts" could be coaxed to tell juries whether the thing in evidence was bigger than a breadbox or more frequent than a streetcar. If I'm going to convict some fellow based on a partial snowflake, I want to first know that no two snowflake pieces are substantially identical to the piece in question. Obviously, the closer one gets to the molecular level, the more similar partial snowflakes become. Jerry Gerald L. Hurst ghurst@austin.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Parsons Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:07 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] RE: [forens} fingerprints Measurable error rates of the kind referred to in Daubert can only be determined for analytical techniques, not for human judgment. [EndPost by "Gerald L. Hurst" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 6 03:21:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h767LnLr010934 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200308060722.AAA07520@scn.org> From: bi492@scn.org (Chesterene Cwiklik) To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] RE: (forens) RE; fingerprints Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:07:17 -0400, Bob Parsons wrote: > . . . I strongly suspect that when examiners make errors, it is usually in regard to partial or poor quality prints. > > . . . research to address concerns about examiner error should focus on partial or low-quality prints. This may reveal the scope of any existing problem with general examiner proficiency. Unfortunately, it still will not produce a valid, usable "error rate" for the "technique" of fingerprint identification, because it will not be predictive of an individual examiner's performance in a specific case. Measurable error rates of the kind referred to in Daubert can only be determined for analytical techniques, not for human judgment. > Examiner error is not the main issue here, rather the limitations of the technique when applied to partial prints or prints of poor quality. Examiner error becomes an issue when the examiner is forced to choose between certain association, certain exclusion, or an inconclusive result, and reaches a definitive conclusion when a qualified conclusion would be more appropriate, or reports an inconclusive result despite the information that is really there. The examiner's quandary is understandable when there is information in a print, but the information is limited. In those cases,, the examiner should be able to give a qualified conclusion, accounting for the information but not giving it too much weight. Then, if an examiner is not able to eliminate an individual finger as the source of a print, but the print was actually made by another finger, i.e., could not be uniquely attributed, the error is in the method and should be measurable. Figuring out how to measure it is another matter, but it should be possible. > Chesterene Cwiklik -- Cwiklik & Associates 2400 6th Avenue South #257 Seattle, WA 98134 (206)623-3637 FAX (206)623-4384 [EndPost by bi492@scn.org (Chesterene Cwiklik)] From forens-owner Thu Aug 7 14:23:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h77INhZ9019846 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F329998.6C30DDBD@lbl.gov> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:25:28 -0700 From: "T. J. Wilkinson" Organization: Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD LBNL V4.75 Build 1 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Pink Fingerprint Powder IR X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Does anyone have an FTIR spectra of Sirchie's Pinkescent latent print powder?? We are conducting research with synchrotron-based FTIR of the chemical composition of latent prints, and have a print that is "contaminated" with the powder. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! T. J. Wilkinson Research Assistant U. S. Department of Energy Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 1 Cyclotron Rd MS 7R0222 Berkeley, CA 94720 (510) 495-2014 (510) 486-6660 FAX [EndPost by "T. J. Wilkinson" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 7 15:43:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h77JhCAk021432 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Donaghey, Claire" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: [forens] lab renovations Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:34:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2003 19:49:17.0213 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC6F5CD0:01C35D1C] Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I work in a crime lab where we are having a complete renovation. I am looking for information from anyone who has recently been involved in this process. Specifically I would like to know what kind of worktops/stations you chose, which vendors you used, and are you happy with their performance? Thank you, Claire Dinghy DuPage County Crime Lab Wheaton, IL [EndPost by "Donaghey, Claire" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 7 15:59:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h77JxD0t022442 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7BD898E2F2ADD511B85200D0B7B9EC9F03FBD290@exchange02.sdsheriff.org> From: "Fink, Marty" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] lab renovations Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:00:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Claire, We are going through a major remodel here at the San Diego Sheriff's Lab. We're using ChemSurf bench tops for the areas where we'll be doing analyses. In the same areas we've had epoxy floors laid down that are supposed to be chemical resistant. For instrumental work surfaces we're using Formica laminate. Since we're a County entity most of our equipment like cabinetry, fumehoods, etc. have gone out to bid. The key for us was to be very specific about the specifications that were posted for the bid process. Please give me a call if you'd like to discuss other aspects and what we've been through. Marty Fink 858-467-4452 -----Original Message----- From: Donaghey, Claire [mailto:cdonaghey@dupageco.org] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 12:34 PM To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: [forens] lab renovations I work in a crime lab where we are having a complete renovation. I am looking for information from anyone who has recently been involved in this process. Specifically I would like to know what kind of worktops/stations you chose, which vendors you used, and are you happy with their performance? Thank you, Claire Dinghy DuPage County Crime Lab Wheaton, IL [EndPost by "Donaghey, Claire" ] [EndPost by "Fink, Marty" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 7 18:44:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h77MifGW027148 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003901c35d35$a92aa520$ba0042ac@davelaptop> From: "Dave Khey" To: Subject: [forens] Fw: FORENSIC SCIENCE EDUCATION Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:45:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="Windows-1252" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h77MifGX027148 ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McNulty Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:43 PM Subject: FORENSIC SCIENCE EDUCATION We are pleased to announce that The University of Florida, in collaboration with the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, has added two new courses into our series of distance learning programs designed for today's forensic science professionals. The University of Edinburgh is well recognized for their level of expertise in the field of forensic medicine education. Through the addition of these unique online courses, we have expanded and enhanced our popular curriculum for working professionals in forensic science. - - New Courses! - - New courses from the University of Edinburgh in Scotland are now available in our University of Florida Forensic Science curriculum. Visit our website at www.forensicscience.ufl.edu for detailed information: * Forensic Medicine and Pathology * Scientific Evidence and Statistics To Learn More About These New Courses: * View our website: www.forensicscience.ufl.edu ˇ Email Dr. Kathleen Savage: forensicscience@dce.ufl.edu ˇ Phone Dr. Savage: 727.549.6067 If you have friends or colleagues who may be interested in these programs, please share this email with them. P.S. We hope you find this communication to be of interest. However, if you do not want to receive these emails in the future, please reply to this message with the word REMOVE in the subject line. (05) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/jpeg image/jpeg image/jpeg image/gif image/gif image/gif --- [EndPost by "Dave Khey" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 8 14:55:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h78It6AB016837 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:55:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Lisa Hudson Organization: Total LegalNurse Consultants To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] question Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:55:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20030808185500.HFHZ7142.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Considering these facts, does anyone have any ideas? Male nurisng home resident found at 0700 with no life signs. CPR initiated, no guess as to down time. On admission to ER serum glucose was 8...rectal temp 103.4. Not diabetic, not on insulin, suspected seizure prior to death. Autopsy reveals cause of death as aspiration pneumonia/Gram POSITIVE sepsis...Is the blood glucose of 8 significant? Lisa Hudson, RN, BSN, LNC Total LegalNurse Consultants 1616 S. State Street Edmond, OK 73013 Phone: 405-414-7005 Fax: 405-720-1884 lisalegalnurse@cox.net This e-mail transmission and any attachments contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) or entity addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any copying, disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail and/or attachment is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your computer system and notify Lisa Hudson at lisalegalnurse@cox.net. [EndPost by Lisa Hudson ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 8 15:26:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h78JQhLm017849 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <019601c35de3$96b29070$6401a8c0@price> From: "J.T. Price" To: References: <20030808185500.HFHZ7142.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Subject: Re: [forens] question Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:30:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Depends on many things, remember the preferred food of even most gram + bacteria is glucose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Hudson" To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 1:55 PM Subject: [forens] question > > > Considering these facts, does anyone have any ideas? > > Male nurisng home resident found at 0700 with no life signs. CPR initiated, no guess as to down time. On admission to ER serum glucose was 8...rectal temp 103.4. Not diabetic, not on insulin, suspected seizure prior to death. Autopsy reveals cause of death as aspiration pneumonia/Gram POSITIVE sepsis...Is the blood glucose of 8 significant? > > Lisa Hudson, RN, BSN, LNC > Total LegalNurse Consultants > 1616 S. State Street > Edmond, OK 73013 > Phone: 405-414-7005 > Fax: 405-720-1884 > lisalegalnurse@cox.net > > This e-mail transmission and any attachments contain confidential > information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) or entity addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any copying, disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail and/or attachment is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your computer system and notify Lisa Hudson at lisalegalnurse@cox.net. > > [EndPost by Lisa Hudson ] [EndPost by "J.T. Price" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 8 15:35:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h78JZEoL018434 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:35:14 -0400 (EDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Disposition-Notification-To: "Jim Lauridson" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: RE: [forens] question Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:35:12 -0500 Message-ID: <664D40A267DF6C4A8D5DAD9D901D51CF049418A2@feb.bwamc.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] question Thread-Index: AcNd4w2wHQkZMzgBSq+9jmY/SmQYeAAAHHgg From: "Jim Lauridson" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h78JZDJl018429 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Antemortem hypoglycemia cannot be diagnosed at autopsy. The postmortem metabolism of glucose by RBC's, WBC's and other tissues proceeds very rapidly making blood glucose levels at autopsy meaningless as far as hypoglycemia is concerned. Hyperglycemia can be detected by measuring glucose in the vitreous humor. Jim Lauridson, M.D. (forensic pathologist) -----Original Message----- From: J.T. Price [mailto:tprice@ionet.net] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:31 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] question Depends on many things, remember the preferred food of even most gram + bacteria is glucose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Hudson" To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 1:55 PM Subject: [forens] question > > > Considering these facts, does anyone have any ideas? > > Male nurisng home resident found at 0700 with no life signs. CPR initiated, no guess as to down time. On admission to ER serum glucose was 8...rectal temp 103.4. Not diabetic, not on insulin, suspected seizure prior to death. Autopsy reveals cause of death as aspiration pneumonia/Gram POSITIVE sepsis...Is the blood glucose of 8 significant? > > Lisa Hudson, RN, BSN, LNC > Total LegalNurse Consultants > 1616 S. State Street > Edmond, OK 73013 > Phone: 405-414-7005 > Fax: 405-720-1884 > lisalegalnurse@cox.net > > This e-mail transmission and any attachments contain confidential > information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) or entity addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any copying, disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail and/or attachment is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your computer system and notify Lisa Hudson at lisalegalnurse@cox.net. > > [EndPost by Lisa Hudson ] [EndPost by "J.T. Price" ] [EndPost by "Jim Lauridson" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 8 18:40:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h78Me3TF022087 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:40:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] RE: (forens) RE; fingerprints Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:41:24 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000a01c35dfe$32433ed0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <200308060722.AAA07520@scn.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2003 22:40:10.0280 (UTC) FILETIME=[0626FA80:01C35DFE] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I agree with what you say, and I suppose there are two ways to look at the issue of partial or poor quality prints - either as a limitation of the technique, or as a limitation on the skill of a practitioner to recognize when the detail present is inadequate to satisfy the requirements of the technique. Either way, I still see the crux of the matter as being the judgment of the examiner in determining whether or not an identification (qualified or not), is justified by the available samples and their quality. Of course, part of the problem is that there is as yet no definitive guidelines as to the "requirements of the technique" (although SWGFAST is working on it), and each examiner must decide that for themselves. Hence, different examiners may disagree as to whether or not a given print is adequate for identification. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Chesterene Cwiklik Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:23 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] RE: (forens) RE; fingerprints On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:07:17 -0400, Bob Parsons wrote: > . . . I strongly suspect that when examiners make errors, it is usually in regard to partial or poor quality prints. > > . . . research to address concerns about examiner error should focus on partial or low-quality prints. This may reveal the scope of any existing problem with general examiner proficiency. Unfortunately, it still will not produce a valid, usable "error rate" for the "technique" of fingerprint identification, because it will not be predictive of an individual examiner's performance in a specific case. Measurable error rates of the kind referred to in Daubert can only be determined for analytical techniques, not for human judgment. > Examiner error is not the main issue here, rather the limitations of the technique when applied to partial prints or prints of poor quality. Examiner error becomes an issue when the examiner is forced to choose between certain association, certain exclusion, or an inconclusive result, and reaches a definitive conclusion when a qualified conclusion would be more appropriate, or reports an inconclusive result despite the information that is really there. The examiner's quandary is understandable when there is information in a print, but the information is limited. In those cases,, the examiner should be able to give a qualified conclusion, accounting for the information but not giving it too much weight. Then, if an examiner is not able to eliminate an individual finger as the source of a print, but the print was actually made by another finger, i.e., could not be uniquely attributed, the error is in the method and should be measurable. Figuring out how to measure it is another matter, but it should be possible. > Chesterene Cwiklik -- Cwiklik & Associates 2400 6th Avenue South #257 Seattle, WA 98134 (206)623-3637 FAX (206)623-4384 [EndPost by bi492@scn.org (Chesterene Cwiklik)] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 10 13:35:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7AHZaCK021332 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:35:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from [Anil Aggrawal ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Anil Aggrawal Subject: Sexual Offences Act, and Homicide Act To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear List, I am doing a comparative study of Laws related to Sexual offences, and murder in various countries. Could you please be kind enough to send me relevant laws in your country, preferably as electronic files, or by snail mail. In particular Homicide Act 1957 of UK and the Sexual Offences Act, perhaps of the same year will be highly appreciated. Many thanks Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic medicine www.anil299.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 12 22:22:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7D2MFDx011698 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030813120851.0396ee80@mailbox.uts.edu.au> X-Sender: croux@mailbox.uts.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:22:08 +1000 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: Claude Roux Subject: [forens] Lifting the Identification Profile Mime-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear list members, This is for your information. Claude Lifting the Identification Profile - 100 years of fingerprinting in Australia conference A conference to celebrate 100 years of fingerprinting in Australia is being held in November. Fingerprinting "downunder" had its genesis in Sydney in 1903. 100 years on Australia remains a world leader. Few countries can equal Australia's contribution to fingerprint enhancement and biometric technology implementation. As part of the celebrations there is a scientific programme following the conference on the theme of 'Lifting the Identification Profile'. The national and international plenary speakers are world renowned and accordingly, each has made a valuable contribution to the administration of better forensic science. The organisers have ensured that other identifiers such as DNA and biometric image comparisons are not forgotten. In addition to a range of plenary and keynote speakers, there will be short papers and posters followed by a weekend of fingerprint related workshops on the 29th/30th November 2003. For more information: http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/fingerprints ========================================== Associate Professor Claude Roux Director, Centre for Forensic Science Forensic Science Course Co-ordinator Dept. of Chemistry, Materials and Forensic Science University of Technology Sydney PO Box 123, Broadway, NSW, AUSTRALIA, 2007 Tel: +61 2 9514 17 18 Fax: +61 2 9514 14 60 Email: Claude.Roux@uts.edu.au http://www.forensics.edu.au http://www.science.uts.edu.au --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Claude Roux ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 13 12:51:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7DGp7Ow025318 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:51:07 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [forens] DNA Inquiry Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:50:59 -0500 Message-ID: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC69@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: DNA Inquiry Thread-Index: AcNhuxIbSotZswPFT+yWezlzuKfxcQ== From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2003 16:50:59.0073 (UTC) FILETIME=[12533F10:01C361BB] X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7DGp7Ox025318 Dear List, Does anyone know how many crime labs do not offer Serology/DNA as part of their service? I'm primarily interested in labs associated with law enforcement agencies, and I know that there are private labs which offer specialized services, but if possible I'm trying to find out if there are any labs, or how many that outsource all Serology/DNA cases. Please respond off list if you wish. Thanks in advance. Phil Aviles Fort Worth Police Crime Lab phil.aviles@fortworthgov.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 13 15:51:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7DJpYSv000567 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <50.20cf9dc5.2c6bf0a3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:50:59 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] DNA Inquiry To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hope things are going better for you, Phil. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Aug 13 17:49:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7DLnF2H003234 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:49:15 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] DNA Inquiry Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:48:44 -0500 Message-ID: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047B01C61151@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] DNA Inquiry Thread-Index: AcNh1IqVPS9IUWGlTImH3xVWdzrL2AAEAXDw From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2003 21:48:44.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[AABB5F70:01C361E4] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7DLnEJl003229 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks. We are trying to head in the right direction. Time will tell. -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 2:51 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] DNA Inquiry Hope things are going better for you, Phil. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 14 14:03:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7EI3pu8021177 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.3 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:03:30 -0700 From: "Geoff Bruton" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Author Contact Information MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 13251173231772-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7EI3oJl021172 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear List, I have been asked by a colleague to try and contact the authors of a paper in order to acquire a copy of the article for our Crime Lab. Although we are currently in possession of an inter-library loan, we obviously don't wish to violate any international copyright laws. The authors are Grzegorz Zadora, Faculty of Chemistry, The Jagiellonian University, Cracow; and Zuzanna Brozek-Mucha, The Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow. "The use of chosen methods of statistical and chemometric analysis in forensic examinations of glass"; Z Zagadnien Nauk Sadowych, z. XL, 1999, 33-71. I have tried an internet search and although finding some information on the university and other papers, I am still in need of contact information. So, if anyone has an email address for either of the above authors, I would greatly appreciate it if you might forward it on to me. Please feel free to contact me off-list. Warm regards, Geoff. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section [EndPost by "Geoff Bruton" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 14 14:27:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7EIRCuI022354 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:27:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Author Contact Information Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:28:37 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000001c36291$e0bb3110$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2003 18:27:19.0037 (UTC) FILETIME=[B1DD82D0:01C36291] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Jeff, Have you tried looking up the paper in Chemical Abstracts or Direct Contents? The abstracts of papers listed in both usually include contact information for reprint requests. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Geoff Bruton Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:04 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Author Contact Information Dear List, I have been asked by a colleague to try and contact the authors of a paper in order to acquire a copy of the article for our Crime Lab. Although we are currently in possession of an inter-library loan, we obviously don't wish to violate any international copyright laws. The authors are Grzegorz Zadora, Faculty of Chemistry, The Jagiellonian University, Cracow; and Zuzanna Brozek-Mucha, The Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow. "The use of chosen methods of statistical and chemometric analysis in forensic examinations of glass"; Z Zagadnien Nauk Sadowych, z. XL, 1999, 33-71. I have tried an internet search and although finding some information on the university and other papers, I am still in need of contact information. So, if anyone has an email address for either of the above authors, I would greatly appreciate it if you might forward it on to me. Please feel free to contact me off-list. Warm regards, Geoff. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section [EndPost by "Geoff Bruton" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 14 19:43:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7ENh2Ft027141 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:43:02 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <8f.30bcf5d1.2c6d786b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:42:35 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Author Contact Information To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7ENh2Fu027141 Goeff, contact Rich Tanton who is presently overseas working for ICITAP. He has many contacts and may be able to assist you. tantonr@ipko.net Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much Subj: [forens] Author Contact Information  Date: 8/14/2003 2:06:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Geoff.Bruton@mail.co.ventura.ca.us Reply-to: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sent from the Internet (Details) Dear List, I have been asked by a colleague to try and contact the authors of a paper in order to acquire a copy of the article for our Crime Lab.  Although we are currently in possession of an inter-library loan, we obviously don't wish to violate any international copyright laws. The authors are Grzegorz Zadora, Faculty of Chemistry, The Jagiellonian University, Cracow; and Zuzanna Brozek-Mucha, The Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow. "The use of chosen methods of statistical and chemometric analysis in forensic examinations of glass"; Z Zagadnien Nauk Sadowych, z. XL, 1999, 33-71. I have tried an internet search and although finding some information on the university and other papers, I am still in need of contact information.  So, if anyone has an email address for either of the above authors, I would greatly appreciate it if you might forward it on to me. Please feel free to contact me off-list. Warm regards, Geoff. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Fri Aug 15 13:24:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7FHO1Rx012695 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:24:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.3 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:23:19 -0700 From: "Geoff Bruton" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Re: Author Contact Information MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 1323C8AA363596-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7FHO0Jl012690 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear List, Just a line to say a huge thank you to all of you who responded to my inquiry regarding contact information for the authors of "The use of chosen methods of statistical and chemometric analysis in forensic examinations of glass". I have forwarded all of your valuable information to the person concerned. She is most appreciative, and is looking into acquiring a copy for the lab. Many thanks once again, and warm regards to all, Geoff. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section [EndPost by "Geoff Bruton" ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 16 08:44:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7GCiShP027176 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Smith, Stephanie L" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] DNA Inquiry Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:44:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Phil, I outsource ALL of the DNA/sero requests for the US Postal Inspection Service Lab. . . I use Bode Technology Group and Cellmark Orchid. Stephanie L. Smith -----Original Message----- From: Aviles, Phil J. [mailto:Phil.Aviles@fortworthgov.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:51 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] DNA Inquiry Dear List, Does anyone know how many crime labs do not offer Serology/DNA as part of their service? I'm primarily interested in labs associated with law enforcement agencies, and I know that there are private labs which offer specialized services, but if possible I'm trying to find out if there are any labs, or how many that outsource all Serology/DNA cases. Please respond off list if you wish. Thanks in advance. Phil Aviles Fort Worth Police Crime Lab phil.aviles@fortworthgov.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] [EndPost by "Smith, Stephanie L" ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 16 09:47:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7GDlr01028284 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:47:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:47:41 EDT Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows To: ascld@lab.fws.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, ccoulter@wvu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Sat Aug 16 11:28:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7GFSeC7029686 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901c3640a$c81e8600$d0126018@RegisteredUser> From: "John" To: , References: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:26:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [24.96.18.208] at Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:27:53 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I remember a show set in the west called "The Adventures of Brisco County Jr." starring Bruce Campbell. Don't remember him firing a gun into a bucket of water for the bullet, but do remember an episode in which he used fingerprints to clear a defendant of murder. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 9:47 AM Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "John" ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 16 14:27:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7GIRV1Q001776 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004401c36424$14e07340$5fa32640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: References: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:27:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? "Hec Ramsey" and Richard Boone. Ran in 1972 [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 16 19:03:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7GN328t004640 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:03:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: dnute@pc.fsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:03:37 CST Reply-To: dnute@pc.fsu.edu Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Content-Type: text/plain Carla, I like this project. One I used to like watching was Barnaby Jones, mainly because I liked Buddy Ebson. He occasionaly did things like shoe track comparisons. Good luck on the project. Dale On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:47:41 EDT SkipnCar@aol.com wrote: > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the > present day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions > into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket > for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like > to make a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 09:56:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HDuqwv013261 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:56:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Jamie" To: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:15:13 -0600 Remember Palladin. Richard Boone played a cowboy detective in San Fransico at the turn of the century. Also there was an episode of the Rifleman with Chuck Conors that dealt with firearms. Jamie ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:47 AM Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 10:51:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HEpXWM014259 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:51:33 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <000701c364ce$d2a89510$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:49:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Personally I like New Detectives or FBI files, The System, and Mugshots. God, you've made me feel older than I am by mentioning Palladin! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 11:56 PM Subject: [forens] forwarded message > From: "Jamie" > To: > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:15:13 -0600 > > Remember Palladin. Richard Boone played a cowboy detective in San Fransico > at the turn of the century. Also there was an episode of the Rifleman with > Chuck Conors that dealt with firearms. > > Jamie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:47 AM > Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present > day. > > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a > known > > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to > make a > > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > > Forensic Scientist > > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > > skipncar@aol.com > > > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > > > > [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 11:58:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HFwd30015196 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:58:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Oliver To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] question In-Reply-To: <20030808185500.HFHZ7142.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Lisa Hudson wrote: > From: Lisa Hudson > > > ...Is the blood glucose of 8 significant? No. billo [EndPost by Bill Oliver ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 13:04:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HH4giJ016232 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:04:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1c7.de22788.2c710f9f@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks, Bob; great memory. I got many replies which said it was Have Gun, Will Travel but I knew that wasn't it. Do you have any specific things from any other shows? Hope all is well with you. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 13:05:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HH5mdZ016336 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:05:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Lisa Hudson Organization: Total LegalNurse Consultants To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Re: [forens] question Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:05:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20030817170542.GTXK7627.lakemtao08.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Thanks to all...I learned from all...the case settled as the family did not want to "battle" for the next year plus. Final cause of death was documented as, "aspiration pneumonia secondary to seizure" Buth thanks to my listmates, I was able to explain the report by the pathologist in a much more "educated" fashion. Lisa > From: Bill Oliver > Date: 2003/08/17 Sun AM 11:58:37 EDT > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] question > > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Lisa Hudson wrote: > > > From: Lisa Hudson > > > > > > ...Is the blood glucose of 8 significant? > > > No. > > > billo > > [EndPost by Bill Oliver ] > Lisa Hudson, RN, BSN, LNC Total LegalNurse Consultants 1616 S. State Street Edmond, OK 73013 Phone: 405-414-7005 Fax: 405-720-1884 lisalegalnurse@cox.net This e-mail transmission and any attachments contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) or entity addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any copying, disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail and/or attachment is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your computer system and notify Lisa Hudson at lisalegalnurse@cox.net. [EndPost by Lisa Hudson ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 13:07:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HH7vx9017034 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:07:57 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <15b.231ef92e.2c71105d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:07:41 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dale, thanks. Any specifics on the shoe track comparison? Let me know if you have more. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 13:17:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HHHq8R017701 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:17:36 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Great, Jamie; can you give me particulars? Hope all is well. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 13:19:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HHJ7WK018059 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:19:07 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1da.f6a2ea6.2c7112fb@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:18:51 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hey, Lynn, remember that age is only important if you're a wine or a cheese. Thanks for the list of shows; I hadn't thought of these. Any specifics from these shows? Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 14:04:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HI4d2E019055 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F3FC390.8080101@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:04:00 -0700 From: Rusty Lee Morris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax; CDonDemand-Dom) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows References: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.46.148.79] at Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:04:22 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hi Carla: I seem to remember one show where "Bat Masterson" shot a bullet into a bucket of water to see how deep it would travel. Then he shot a bullet into a sack of cotton. I don't remember what the purpose was at the time for his character, but I found it interesting. Rusty SkipnCar@aol.com wrote: >I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the >future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be >humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > >I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > >Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy >performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known >sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a >complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > >Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and >will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > >Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS >Forensic Scientist >8513 Northwest 47 Street >Coral Springs, FL 33067 >954-796-8063, telephone & fax >skipncar@aol.com > >Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >[EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > > [EndPost by Rusty Lee Morris ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 17 15:45:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7HJjIBW021816 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:45:18 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <002701c364f7$d0570750$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <1da.f6a2ea6.2c7112fb@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:43:11 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Or the pyramids! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message > Hey, Lynn, remember that age is only important if you're a wine or a cheese. > > Thanks for the list of shows; I hadn't thought of these. Any specifics from > these shows? > > Carla > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 08:12:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7ICCKti003087 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.11 July 24, 2002 Message-ID: From: "Jenny Smith" Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:12:16 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GHQPROD/MSHP400(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 08/18/2003 07:12:13 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Gees, don't forget those great Sherlock Holmes productions by Mystery Theatre on PBS. Jeremy Brett played Sherlock. Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 SkipnCar@aol.com Sent by: To: ascld@lab.fws.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, owner-forens@statg ccoulter@wvu.edu en.ncsu.edu cc: Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows 08/16/2003 08:47 AM Please respond to forens I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 08:49:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7ICnNTk004265 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:49:23 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <00e601c36586$d128a230$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:46:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hey, I'd forgotten all about those, and I used to like that one with Jeremy Brett! Gee, we're digging down to the bottom to the barrel now aren't we? Now I'm sure there are more and I'm going to try to think of them - it will probably take a while! Regards Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Smith" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > Gees, don't forget those great Sherlock Holmes productions by Mystery > Theatre on PBS. Jeremy Brett played Sherlock. > > Jenny Smith, Criminalist III > Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab > 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 > ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 > > > > > SkipnCar@aol.com > Sent by: To: ascld@lab.fws.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, > owner-forens@statg ccoulter@wvu.edu > en.ncsu.edu cc: > Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > > 08/16/2003 08:47 > AM > Please respond to > forens > > > > > > > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present > day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a > known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make > a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > > > > > > > [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 09:21:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IDLoIn005403 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.07a May 14, 2001 Message-ID: From: CBecnel@dps.state.la.us Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:23:08 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on mail02/SVR/DPS/LAGOV(Release 6.0.2CF2|July 23, 2003) at 08/18/2003 08:23:10 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Can't leave of the Hardy Boys, they had their own crime lab above the garage! Adam |---------+-----------------------------> | | "Lynn Coceani" | | | | | | Sent by: | | | owner-forens@statg| | | en.ncsu.edu | | | | | | | | | 08/18/2003 07:46 | | | AM | | | Please respond to | | | forens | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: | | cc: | | Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Hey, I'd forgotten all about those, and I used to like that one with Jeremy Brett! Gee, we're digging down to the bottom to the barrel now aren't we? Now I'm sure there are more and I'm going to try to think of them - it will probably take a while! Regards Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Smith" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > Gees, don't forget those great Sherlock Holmes productions by Mystery > Theatre on PBS. Jeremy Brett played Sherlock. > > Jenny Smith, Criminalist III > Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab > 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 > ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 > > > > > SkipnCar@aol.com > Sent by: To: ascld@lab.fws.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, > owner-forens@statg ccoulter@wvu.edu > en.ncsu.edu cc: > Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > > 08/16/2003 08:47 > AM > Please respond to > forens > > > > > > > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present > day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a > known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make > a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > > > > > > > [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] [EndPost by CBecnel@dps.state.la.us] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 09:22:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IDM4Yg005440 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:22:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Akwekon@aol.com Message-ID: <1d0.f56d203.2c722cee@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:21:50 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 8/16/2003 7:48:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, SkipnCar@aol.com writes: > I'd also like to make a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > Thanks for undertaking this project, Carla. I'll bet it will be a lot of fun and, of course, you'll be presenting it as a paper at the next Academy meeting, right? Perhaps a book in the future? My favorite show was Barney Miller, as it seemed not only humorous, but fairly typical of what I remember as a typical detective squad room in an NYPD precinct station. However, now that Sherlock Holmes has been mentioned, it is well not to forget Charlie Chan. I will now be inclined to try to round up some old Charlie Chan books to try to find some examples for you and at least to review that old priceless saying in one of the Chan books "Ask loudly in amaze, How Can Do!?" Best wishes, Z. G. Standing Bear, Forensic Health Science Programs, University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, CO --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Akwekon@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 09:33:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IDXDUr006483 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Greg Kiddon To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:45:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2003 13:32:51.0203 (UTC) FILETIME=[38AAFD30:01C3658D] Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu That was an old Rifleman episode with Chuck Connors. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Kegel [mailto:bobkegel@seanet.com] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:28 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? "Hec Ramsey" and Richard Boone. Ran in 1972 [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] [EndPost by Greg Kiddon ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 09:49:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IDnvN7007530 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:49:57 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:49:45 -0500 Message-ID: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047B01C61158@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Forensic Shows Thread-Index: AcNj/Sm2ZcJKH7YlThiGgaGiTtrDDgBkiGhg From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2003 13:49:45.0449 (UTC) FILETIME=[9534A590:01C3658F] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7IDnuJl007525 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu One of my favorites was "Wild Wild West" James West was some sort of gov. agent who traveled around on a train with his scientific sidekick Artemus Gordon. They did some interesting early forensics as I recall. Phil Aviles -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:48 AM To: ascld@lab.fws.gov; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; ccoulter@wvu.edu Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 10:05:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IE56ip008638 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:05:06 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.1 February 07, 2003 Message-ID: From: cstrong@nsp.state.ne.us Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:04:54 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on OAK/NSP(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 08/18/2003 09:05:05 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Don't forget Columbo! [EndPost by cstrong@nsp.state.ne.us] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 11:05:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IF56MI011238 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.4 Beta Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:04:38 -0700 From: josh.spatola@doj.ca.gov (Josh Spatola) To: , Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Guinevere: 2.0.12 ; DOJ HDC IT Procureme X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-874 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7IF56MJ011238 Carla, Well, "The Simpsons" isn't a "forensic show," but there was an episode with some forensic references... The Simpsons, Episode 2F20, "Who Shot Mr. Burns?, Part 2" In this episode you are led to believe Homer shot Mr. Burns, but in actuality it was the baby, Maggie. There are a few references to DNA... Wiggum looks over the suit with a magnifying glass and finds an eyelash. "Eureka!" he cries. He takes it to the DNA lab. DNA guy: Ooh, nice eyelash. Yours? Wiggum: No. We need to find out who it belonged to. We want a DNA test. DNA guy: Uhhhh. Uh, that takes, uh, eight to ten weeks. Wiggum: [sighs, hands him a carton of cigarettes] DNA guy: Did I say weeks? 'Cause I meant seconds. [runs over to another machine, grabs a card from it; puts it in a computer] Wiggum: What do you got, the whole town's DNA on file? DNA guy: Y'uh huh. If you've ever handled a penny, the government's got your DNA. Why do you think they keep 'em in circulation? —---------------------- (same episode) Marge sits at the kitchen table with Lisa. Marge: The police have such a strong case against Homer. Mr. Burns said he did it, they have Homer's DNA -- Lisa: They have Simpson DNA! It could have come from any of us, except you, since you're a Bouvier. Marge: No! No, no, when I took your father's name, I took everything that came with it -- including DNA. Lisa: [giving up] OK, Mom. —----------------------------- The Simpsons, Episode 3F31, "The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular" This episode presented alternate endings to the "Who Shot Mr. Burns?" episode above. At the end of the alternate ending clip the announcer says... Troy: But of course, for that ending to work, you would have to ignore all the Simpson DNA evidence. [laughs] And that would be downright nutty. (The above being an obvious reference to an actual Simpson DNA case). Well, that's all I've got. Does this count as a submission to the Forensic Shows topic? Josh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by josh.spatola@doj.ca.gov (Josh Spatola)] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 11:23:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IFNAWp012311 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:23:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.3 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:22:44 -0700 From: "James Roberts" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 135E30DB551092-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7IFN9Jl012306 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Heck Ramsy (not sure of the spelling) was the Cowboy show. >>> SkipnCar@aol.com 08/16/03 06:47AM >>> I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "James Roberts" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 12:09:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IG9mDb014692 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:09:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.3 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:09:17 -0700 From: "James Roberts" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 135E25B7560267-01-01 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7IG9lJl014685 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Now that I think about it I don't think it was water but cotton in the wastebasket that Hec Ramsey used. I would guess it may be in more than one old western show. Ramsey did it almost every episode as I recall. >>> GKiddon@ag.state.oh.us 08/18/03 04:45AM >>> That was an old Rifleman episode with Chuck Connors. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Kegel [mailto:bobkegel@seanet.com] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:28 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? "Hec Ramsey" and Richard Boone. Ran in 1972 [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] [EndPost by Greg Kiddon ] [EndPost by "James Roberts" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 14:02:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7II2bkQ024864 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:02:37 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1aa.18b2938e.2c726eaf@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:02:23 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks, Jenny. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 14:12:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IICCmK029525 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:12:12 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1dd.f774ce8.2c7270eb@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:11:55 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Phil, can you remember any particulars? Carla --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 14:24:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IIO3Ob000912 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:24:03 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <164.2487ef83.2c7273b3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:47 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks, Josh. Gee, even the Simpsons. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 14:30:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IIUQTs001603 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:30:26 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:29:55 -0500 Message-ID: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC6C@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Forensic Shows Thread-Index: AcNlta5xSxGC4tNnQ726vbbbqqb7/wAADYpg From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2003 18:29:54.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[B858B3A0:01C365B6] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7IIUPJl001598 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I think the star was Robert Conrad. I can't remember the other guy's name. Artemus Gordon was the scientific half of the couple. He was always coming up with some crime fighting gizmo, or figuiring out what the bad guys were doing. I can't remember much about it, but I thought it was unique and entertaining for the time. A movie was made based on the series, starring Will Smith. -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:12 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Phil, can you remember any particulars? Carla --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 14:33:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IIXXju002022 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:33:33 -0400 (EDT) To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.11 July 24, 2002 Message-ID: From: RBost@ucok.edu Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:32:11 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Mercury/UCO(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 08/18/2003 01:32:18 PM, Serialize complete at 08/18/2003 01:32:18 PM X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu The TV show and the movie were both titled "Wild, Wild West". Robert O. Bost, Ph.D., DABFT Director, MS in Forensic Sciences Program Department of Chemistry University of Central Oklahoma Edmond, Oklahoma 73034 (405) 974-5519 "Aviles, Phil J." Sent by: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu 08/18/2003 01:29 PM Please respond to forens To: cc: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows I think the star was Robert Conrad. I can't remember the other guy's name. Artemus Gordon was the scientific half of the couple. He was always coming up with some crime fighting gizmo, or figuiring out what the bad guys were doing. I can't remember much about it, but I thought it was unique and entertaining for the time. A movie was made based on the series, starring Will Smith. -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:12 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Phil, can you remember any particulars? Carla --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by RBost@ucok.edu] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 14:39:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IIdMkw002710 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:39:22 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <3f.20fe1733.2c72774f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:39:11 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks, Robert. Hope all is well. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 15:17:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7IJH8b8006374 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:17:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from [Vesalius@att.net] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Vesalius@att.net To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:28:43 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jul 29 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: VmVzYWxpdXNAYXR0Lm5ldA== Yes, yes, my favorite as well.....with Dr. Loveless, Dr. Megalito Loveless. I loved when Megalito was inside a coffin that was standing on its "feet." He opened the lid and climbed down. Lana > One of my favorites was "Wild Wild West" James West was some sort of gov. agent > who traveled around on a train with his scientific sidekick Artemus Gordon. > They did some interesting early forensics as I recall. > > Phil Aviles > > -----Original Message----- > From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:48 AM > To: ascld@lab.fws.gov; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; ccoulter@wvu.edu > Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 17:51:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7ILp3dV006457 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F414A2A.72F9380C@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:50:34 -0400 From: "Lana Thompson, M.A., author: The Wandering Womb" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-WNS5.0 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows References: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC6C@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu What I liked about the show was that it was always tongue-in-cheek. They parodied classical literature and myth. Each episode was informed by something intellectual. Sometimes the characters had names that were satirized famous people. Ross Martin was the actor who played Artemus Gordon. [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A., author: The Wandering Womb" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 19:46:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7INk2Jr026674 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:46:02 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <001301c365e2$a8419370$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:44:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Ooohhh, I forgot about Colombo - I used to LOVE that show and I saw a new one with Billy Connelly in it as well not long ago! It was called "Too Many Notes" Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > > Don't forget Columbo! > > [EndPost by cstrong@nsp.state.ne.us] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 19:52:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7INqOIv000757 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:52:24 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <004001c365e3$264ae550$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC6C@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:47:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I know the guy you mean but can't remember his name but he was very dark with a round face and big eyes! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:29 AM Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > I think the star was Robert Conrad. I can't remember the other guy's name. Artemus Gordon was the scientific half of the couple. He was always coming up with some crime fighting gizmo, or figuiring out what the bad guys were doing. I can't remember much about it, but I thought it was unique and entertaining for the time. A movie was made based on the series, starring Will Smith. > > -----Original Message----- > From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:12 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > Phil, can you remember any particulars? > > Carla > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 19:57:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7INvbwL001688 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:57:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "chris breyer" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:57:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c365e4$80195ac0$32b00444@oc.cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu The Hardy Boys' Detective Handbook is a mighty fine read, btw. An FBI agent consulted on it, as I recall, and much of is still good info (tho KJohn might not agree). Chris Breyer Can't leave of the Hardy Boys, they had their own crime lab above the garage! Adam |---------+-----------------------------> | | "Lynn Coceani" | | | | | | Sent by: | | | owner-forens@statg| | | en.ncsu.edu | | | | | | | | | 08/18/2003 07:46 | | | AM | | | Please respond to | | | forens | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------| | | | To: | | cc: | | Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows | >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------| Hey, I'd forgotten all about those, and I used to like that one with Jeremy Brett! Gee, we're digging down to the bottom to the barrel now aren't we? Now I'm sure there are more and I'm going to try to think of them - it will probably take a while! Regards Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Smith" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > Gees, don't forget those great Sherlock Holmes productions by Mystery > Theatre on PBS. Jeremy Brett played Sherlock. > > Jenny Smith, Criminalist III > Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab > 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 > ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 > > > > > SkipnCar@aol.com > Sent by: To: ascld@lab.fws.gov, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, > owner-forens@statg ccoulter@wvu.edu > en.ncsu.edu cc: > Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows > > 08/16/2003 08:47 > AM > Please respond to > forens > > > > > > > I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present > day. > Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the > future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be > humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. > > I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. > > Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy > performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a > known > sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make > a > complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? > > Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and > will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > > > > > > > [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] [EndPost by CBecnel@dps.state.la.us] [EndPost by "chris breyer" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 19:59:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7INxMWs002086 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:59:22 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <005201c365e3$ba4e96c0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC6C@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> <3F414A2A.72F9380C@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:52:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Ah-ha! That the name of the guy I was trying to think of for Peter. He was dark, with a round face and big eyes wasn't he! Of course he was Ross Martin! Thanks, Lana. It would have driven me made trying to think of it! Regards Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lana Thompson, M.A., author: The Wandering Womb" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > What I liked about the show was that it was always tongue-in-cheek. They > parodied classical literature and myth. Each episode was informed by > something intellectual. Sometimes the characters had names that were > satirized famous people. Ross Martin was the actor who played Artemus > Gordon. > [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A., author: The Wandering Womb" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 20:01:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J01AAW002613 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:01:10 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <67.16fed564.2c72c2ba@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:00:58 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks, Lana. How are you? Getting ready to leave for Africa next week for 3 months. Will still have the same e-mail though. Carla --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 20:47:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J0lSO5004145 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" To: "Forensic List" Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:47:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7J0lSO6004145 If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 21:23:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J1NvZj009889 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:23:57 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <00af01c365f0$325ce110$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:21:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu And Kojak? (Gawd, my husband's brain must be clearing up!) Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" To: "Forensic List" Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 21:24:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J1O6Gg009917 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:24:06 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <007801c365ef$57433fc0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:15:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Well, Diagnosis Murder isn't the REAL bottom, but it's getting there - I actually don't mind it but I'm not normal! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" To: "Forensic List" Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 21:27:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J1RafI010629 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:27:36 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <00c901c365f0$91bdfe50$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:23:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu If you want REAL bad taste, try "Murder Call" which is an Aussie production. God, it's boring and if that woman ever smiles, I'll faint! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" To: "Forensic List" Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 21:30:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J1UcoA011024 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:30:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Gismort@aol.com Message-ID: <158.232022d5.2c72d7b3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:30:27 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 8/18/2003 7:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lynn@hyp.com.au writes: > I know the guy you mean but can't remember his name but he was very dark > with a round face and big eyes! > Peter Falk --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Gismort@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 22:00:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J20k1S012064 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:00:46 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <011501c365f4$c1608660$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <158.232022d5.2c72d7b3@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:53:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu NOpe, we worked it out to be Ross Martin! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > In a message dated 8/18/2003 7:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lynn@hyp.com.au writes: > > > I know the guy you mean but can't remember his name but he was very dark > > with a round face and big eyes! > > > > Peter Falk > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by Gismort@aol.com] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 22:17:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J2Hr8j012681 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <07cd01c365f8$21426500$0900a8c0@karen> From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" To: References: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> <00c901c365f0$91bdfe50$6400a8c0@LYNN> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:18:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks Lynn, I had forgotten that one - Tessa was the name of the sour detective with supposed psychic abilities that solved all the cases. It was bad enough the first time around, but I still watched it on daytime TV a second time as a study avoidance measure. Obviously I'm not normal either :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Coceani" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > If you want REAL bad taste, try "Murder Call" which is an Aussie production. > God, it's boring and if that woman ever smiles, I'll faint! > > > Lynn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" > To: "Forensic List" > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:47 AM > Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick Van > Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > > > > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 18 23:23:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J3Nu7o014198 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:23:56 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <014401c365ff$e022aaa0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> <00c901c365f0$91bdfe50$6400a8c0@LYNN> <07cd01c365f8$21426500$0900a8c0@karen> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:13:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu That thing's still on Foxtel - I sort of watched it yesterday. God, that woman was a misery-guts if ever I saw one. Too intense and overacted. Do you ever remember seeing her smile, because I don't. And she ALWAYS had "flashbacks" or "flashforwards" and SAVED THE DAY!!!! You know it's bad when it finishes up on Foxtel in the middle of the day! Yuk - it makes me shiver thinking about it! Lynn (I'm like you, I was watching it to avoid studying for an exam) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > Thanks Lynn, I had forgotten that one - Tessa was the name of the sour > detective with supposed psychic abilities that solved all the cases. It was > bad enough the first time around, but I still watched it on daytime TV a > second time as a study avoidance measure. Obviously I'm not normal either > :-) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Coceani" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > If you want REAL bad taste, try "Murder Call" which is an Aussie > production. > > God, it's boring and if that woman ever smiles, I'll faint! > > > > > > Lynn > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" > > To: "Forensic List" > > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:47 AM > > Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > > > > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick > Van > > Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > > > > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > > > > > > > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] > > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 01:12:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J5CKql016661 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:12:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "chris breyer" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:12:18 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c36610$7696a580$32b00444@oc.cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 In-Reply-To: <074e01c365eb$82139ff0$0900a8c0@karen> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Let's not forget Miguel Ferrer's post-mortem examiner character from 'Twin Peaks', circa 1990-1992. Way over the top. Only appeared in a couple of episodes, as I recall. Chris Breyer -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Cavanagh-Steer Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:48 PM To: Forensic List Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] [EndPost by "chris breyer" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 02:46:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J6kkFg018340 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:46:46 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <014c01c3661c$51a08e60$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <000701c36610$7696a580$32b00444@oc.cox.net> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:37:04 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu That was pathetic wasn't it? Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris breyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 3:12 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > Let's not forget Miguel Ferrer's post-mortem examiner character from > 'Twin Peaks', circa 1990-1992. Way over the top. Only appeared in a > couple of episodes, as I recall. > > Chris Breyer > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Cavanagh-Steer > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:48 PM > To: Forensic List > Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick > Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > > > [EndPost by "chris breyer" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 05:30:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7J9UBO8020853 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:30:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Forrest" To: Subject: RE: [forens] question Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:29:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030808185500.HFHZ7142.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu It is very common to find an increase in glucose post recuscitation particularly if adrenaline/epinephrine was used as part of an asystole protocol. Robert Forrest A R W Forrest LLM, FRCP, FRCPath, CChem, FRSC Professor of Forensic Toxicology Medico-legal Centre Watery Street SHEFFIELD S3 7ES UK -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Lisa Hudson Sent: 08 August 2003 11:55 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] question > Considering these facts, does anyone have any ideas? Male nurisng home resident found at 0700 with no life signs. CPR initiated, no guess as to down time. On admission to ER serum glucose was 8...rectal temp 103.4. Not diabetic, not on insulin, suspected seizure prior to death. Autopsy reveals cause of death as aspiration pneumonia/Gram POSITIVE sepsis...Is the blood glucose of 8 significant? Lisa Hudson, RN, BSN, LNC Total LegalNurse Consultants 1616 S. State Street Edmond, OK 73013 Phone: 405-414-7005 Fax: 405-720-1884 lisalegalnurse@cox.net This e-mail transmission and any attachments contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) or entity addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any copying, disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail and/or attachment is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your computer system and notify Lisa Hudson at lisalegalnurse@cox.net. [EndPost by Lisa Hudson ] [EndPost by "Robert Forrest" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 06:32:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JAWCDI022253 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006001c3663c$fe5ec340$d0126018@RegisteredUser> From: "John" To: References: <000701c36610$7696a580$32b00444@oc.cox.net> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:31:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [24.96.18.208] at Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:32:05 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Speaking of medical examiners, don't forget "Crossing Jordan." I forget who stars in it (but I think Miguel Ferrer again is in it also). Also, does anyone remember "The Comish" starring Michael Chicklas? John Peterson ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris breyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:12 AM Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > Let's not forget Miguel Ferrer's post-mortem examiner character from > 'Twin Peaks', circa 1990-1992. Way over the top. Only appeared in a > couple of episodes, as I recall. > > Chris Breyer > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Cavanagh-Steer > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:48 PM > To: Forensic List > Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick > Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > > > [EndPost by "chris breyer" ] [EndPost by "John" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 06:34:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JAYjcG022516 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:34:45 -0400 (EDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Disposition-Notification-To: "Jim Lauridson" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: [forens] Audio Processing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:34:42 -0500 Message-ID: <664D40A267DF6C4A8D5DAD9D901D51CF04941932@feb.bwamc.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Forensic Shows Thread-Index: AcNl64MHFxUZzC5tQ2ueLQJJG4USfAAUb7xw From: "Jim Lauridson" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7JAYhJl022511 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Does anyone have a resource to process a mini audio tape to enhance an obscured conversation. It would be a private consultation. Thanks, Jim Lauridson [EndPost by "Jim Lauridson" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 06:58:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JAwFFM023234 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:58:15 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <01cf01c36640$587c7f40$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <000701c36610$7696a580$32b00444@oc.cox.net> <006001c3663c$fe5ec340$d0126018@RegisteredUser> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:54:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Yes, I remember "The Comish" - didn't last long though did it? I've actually never seen "Crossing Jordan". Of course we have that pathetic "Stingers" here as well, Karen. Can't stand that either! Don't like much do I? :) I used to watch those old shows and watch them tramping all over crime scenes and cringe! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > Speaking of medical examiners, don't forget "Crossing Jordan." I forget who > stars in it (but I think Miguel Ferrer again is in it also). > > Also, does anyone remember "The Comish" starring Michael Chicklas? > > John Peterson > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "chris breyer" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:12 AM > Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > Let's not forget Miguel Ferrer's post-mortem examiner character from > > 'Twin Peaks', circa 1990-1992. Way over the top. Only appeared in a > > couple of episodes, as I recall. > > > > Chris Breyer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Cavanagh-Steer > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:48 PM > > To: Forensic List > > Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, how about Dick > > Van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder. > > > > On a more amusing note, there is always the Jonathan Creek series... > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > [EndPost by "Karen Cavanagh-Steer" ] > > > > > > [EndPost by "chris breyer" ] > > [EndPost by "John" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 07:06:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JB6UP5023708 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:06:30 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <01d401c36641$ccae0590$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <664D40A267DF6C4A8D5DAD9D901D51CF04941932@feb.bwamc.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Audio Processing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:05:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Do you mean those little bitty things that people dictate onto? I type medicolegal reports which are taped on to them. I used to have heaps but now I only have one but you can have it. I have three micros as well. It measures 5cm x 3cm. Why did I get so honest and give them all back. Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lauridson" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: [forens] Audio Processing > Does anyone have a resource to process a mini audio tape > to enhance an obscured conversation. > It would be a private consultation. > Thanks, > Jim Lauridson > > > [EndPost by "Jim Lauridson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 07:10:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JBALxj024076 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:10:21 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <01e001c36642$3093e7a0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <664D40A267DF6C4A8D5DAD9D901D51CF04941932@feb.bwamc.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Audio Processing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:08:11 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sorry I don't have the resource to process it, unless you mean my transcriber? Lynn (I didn't read your email properly, of course!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lauridson" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: [forens] Audio Processing > Does anyone have a resource to process a mini audio tape > to enhance an obscured conversation. > It would be a private consultation. > Thanks, > Jim Lauridson > > > [EndPost by "Jim Lauridson" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 07:15:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JBFbah024476 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:15:37 -0400 (EDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Disposition-Notification-To: "Jim Lauridson" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: RE: [forens] Audio Processing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:15:34 -0500 Message-ID: <664D40A267DF6C4A8D5DAD9D901D51CF04941933@feb.bwamc.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Audio Processing Thread-Index: AcNmQoOFXwh3MRwgQxqdt8JneFq8ZQAAF/KA From: "Jim Lauridson" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7JBFZJl024471 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn, You are right, what I am looking for is someone to reduce the background noise so that a conversation is audible to a jury. I probably was not clear in my note (processing is a vague term.) Can I use too early in the morning as an excuse?? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Lynn Coceani [mailto:lynn@hyp.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 6:08 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Audio Processing Sorry I don't have the resource to process it, unless you mean my transcriber? Lynn (I didn't read your email properly, of course!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lauridson" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: [forens] Audio Processing > Does anyone have a resource to process a mini audio tape > to enhance an obscured conversation. > It would be a private consultation. > Thanks, > Jim Lauridson > > > [EndPost by "Jim Lauridson" ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] [EndPost by "Jim Lauridson" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 08:20:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JCKWjO026228 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:20:32 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <01f701c3664b$ece7f230$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <664D40A267DF6C4A8D5DAD9D901D51CF04941933@feb.bwamc.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Audio Processing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:17:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Jim, you can use whatever excuse you like - I'm using too late at night for mine! I type these tapes constantly (gotta pay those Uni fees!) for medicolegal lawyers and medical negligence cases. I'd be glad to type it for you but I think we have a HUGE problem - I'm in Australia and I'd say you're around the other side of the world. You have no idea the noises I have to put up with - I've been doing this for over 30 years. I get kids screaming, dogs yapping, clocks dinging, train boom gates clanging, and my favourite two - coughing and eating! Oh no there's one more - someone pushing a chair back without turning off the tape - I nearly scream the house down with fright! I have one guy who puts the dictaphone on the desk and walks around the office dictating - so the volume goes up and down, the phones ring but he leaves it going! I type a lot of teleconferences for the medical profession and actual conferences as well -so you can imagine with 3000 people at a conference, how many different accents I have to decipher as well! Now witout wishing to cause an uproar, people with French accents would have to be the hardest people on earth to understand - oh, I get there but the air's a bit blue when I'm finished. It's a pity you couldn't copy it onto another tape and send it here and I'd type it and email it back. It's food for thought - God, I'm hungry! My transcriber is relatively new and reduces noise quite a bit. Anyway just thought I'd let you know. Regards Lynn [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 08:28:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JCSb9W026664 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:28:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Steven Staggs To: Subject: Question regarding death from an overdose of barbiturates Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:36:05 PST Reply-To: If a person dies from an overdose of barbiturates (such as Nembutal) would it be unusual to find the victim face down with legs straight and arms down at his/her side (like standing at attention)? Do people who die of an overdose of barbiturates usually go into convulsions and/or vomiting and die in a contorted position? ***************** Steven B. Staggs University of California Police Department 3500 Canyon Crest Drive, Riverside, CA 92521-0218 VOICE: 909-787-3848 FAX: 909-683-1639 [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 08:33:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JCXU4v027092 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Lynn Coceani" To: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:27:39 +1000 Remember Petrocelli - the guy and his wife who were forever building the house in the desert. And McMillan and Wife, do they fit? And Perry Mason!? Huh? They weren't very "forensicky" (rotten word if it even exists but you get the drift). Lynn (I've got 'em all thinking about it now!) Surf Coast Secretarial Services lynncoceani@connexus.net.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lana Thompson, M.A., author: The Wandering Womb" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > What I liked about the show was that it was always tongue-in-cheek. They > parodied classical literature and myth. Each episode was informed by > something intellectual. Sometimes the characters had names that were > satirized famous people. Ross Martin was the actor who played Artemus > Gordon. > [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A., author: The Wandering Womb" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 09:43:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JDhGBB029724 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:43:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Stacey.Smith@state.sd.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:21:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Don't forget Bill Cosby with co-star Rita Moreno in the Cosby Mystery series on NBC starting in 1994. He played a retired criminalist that was mentoring a young man going through school for forensics. Moreno was Cosby's housekeeper. The science was well portrayed and was not hokey. [EndPost by Stacey.Smith@state.sd.us] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 10:14:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JEEiZR001299 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:14:44 -0400 (EDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: [forens] Video Search Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:14:31 -0400 Message-ID: <4B2EAA9D52142E4E97BEF4C4900ECCD308022B@DOITLHHQEXR.fldoi.gov> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Forensic Shows Thread-Index: AcNmWlUZkx3CXE5/QY2Jq2bk4Ntz6wAAZY1A From: "Michael Koussiafes" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 14:14:32.0104 (UTC) FILETIME=[35BBF280:01C3665C] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7JEEgJl001294 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hello I hope someone can help me in locating and obtaining a video. It is about blood spatter pattern interpretation. The details I have: Blood in Slow Motion 1991 Video Home Office Main Laboratory London Any information is appreciated. Thank you very much. Perry Michael Koussiafes Crime Laboratory Analyst koussiafesm@dfs.state.fl.us 850-539-8446 [EndPost by "Michael Koussiafes" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 10:32:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JEWgYt002169 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030819143221.47307.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamara Leher Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <67.16fed564.2c72c2ba@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In regards to shows with forensics, even such shows as Xena, Warrior Princess and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have their share of forensics. Depending on what you want to include and how you define your parameters, even Star Wars has a bit of unofficial forensics (Obi Wan identifying footprints and profiling). Regards, Tamara Leher __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by Tamara Leher ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 10:56:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JEu6Dd003383 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:56:06 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] Video Search Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:55:42 -0500 Message-ID: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC6E@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Forensic Shows Thread-Index: AcNmWlUZkx3CXE5/QY2Jq2bk4Ntz6wAAZY1AAAFdkqA= From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 14:55:43.0083 (UTC) FILETIME=[F68D6BB0:01C36661] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7JEu5Jl003378 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I have a copy of that video. It's short, but the slow motion photography is excellent. There is no information on the tape, but there is a telephone number on the jacket: (0171) 230-0325 Metropolitan Police. Hope this helps. Phil Aviles -----Original Message----- From: Michael Koussiafes [mailto:KoussiafesM@dfs.state.fl.us] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:15 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Video Search Hello I hope someone can help me in locating and obtaining a video. It is about blood spatter pattern interpretation. The details I have: Blood in Slow Motion 1991 Video Home Office Main Laboratory London Any information is appreciated. Thank you very much. Perry Michael Koussiafes Crime Laboratory Analyst koussiafesm@dfs.state.fl.us 850-539-8446 [EndPost by "Michael Koussiafes" ] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 11:24:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JFOG92004834 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:23:53 -0600 From: JDeak Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows In-reply-to: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu No one has mentioned Hawaii-50. They had some great ones. Still remember Steve McGarrett & "Labman" standing over a P.E. IR (a small grating instrument that you would find in a university undergraduate lab). As they're staring at the chart, the C-H stretch region at ~2800 wavenumbers is being scanned and plotted onto the chart paper ... and Labman says something to the effect: "I don't believe it Steve McGarrett. This is a very rare drug from a remote mountain region in Thailand". For those non-chemists in the group, one generally has to look at the entire (or at least the better part of an) infrared spectrum to i.d. a compound (or class of compounds... for those purists in the group). Darn near fell off my chair from laughing so hard when I saw that. Just had a look on the Web and came across the Hawaii-50 web site: http://www.mjq.net/fiveo/ that contains more than you'd ever need to know about the show. "Book'em, Danno." Joe Deak Edmonton, Alberta -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of SkipnCar@aol.com Sent: August 16, 2003 7:48 AM To: ascld@lab.fws.gov; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; ccoulter@wvu.edu Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 14-08-2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.511 / Virus Database: 308 - Release Date: 18-08-2003 [EndPost by JDeak ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 12:10:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JGAUKr007460 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:10:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Gismort@aol.com Message-ID: <185.1f4583f1.2c73a5e5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:10:13 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu How about Murder She Wrote?? Does that count? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Gismort@aol.com] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 13:31:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JHVr73011490 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030819173151.23040.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:31:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ana C. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <001301c365e2$a8419370$6400a8c0@LYNN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Let's not forget the Columbo spin-off "Mrs. Columbo" played by Kate Mulgrew. It lasted one season and it was quite cheesy. --- Lynn Coceani wrote: > Ooohhh, I forgot about Colombo - I used to LOVE that > show and I saw a new > one with Billy Connelly in it as well not long ago! > It was called "Too Many > Notes" > > > > Lynn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:04 AM > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget Columbo! > > > > [EndPost by cstrong@nsp.state.ne.us] > > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by "Ana C. Rodriguez" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 19 19:56:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7JNuG7o022356 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F42B919.103177B9@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:56:09 -0400 From: "Lana Thompson, M.A." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-WNS5.0 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows References: <67.16fed564.2c72c2ba@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Carla, You're quite welcome. That show was the only one I ever watched. What part of Africa? Liberia? Are you doing some forensic work there? Have as good of a time as you can have. L [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 08:10:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KCAcmE002538 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:10:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Michael Finnegan" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:22:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [forens] Video Search Reply-to: finnegan@ksu.edu For information on the video on blood spatter, contact: MICHAEL.VANSTRATTON@KBI.STATE.KS Best regards, Mike Michael Finnegan, PhD, D-ABFA Kansas State University; 204 Waters Hall Manhattan, Kansas 66506; 785-532-4982 voice: 785-532-6978 FAX [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 12:28:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KGSYSP010128 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:28:34 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:21:55 EDT Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux To: mgsheppo@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows which I will include in my compilation. Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. Thanks, Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 13:09:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KH98W7011275 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:09:08 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:08:44 -0500 Message-ID: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047B01C61162@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Thread-Index: AcNnOatb7xFuUho4TA6bfYPVwfyW4AAA5zaQ From: "Aviles, Phil J." To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2003 17:08:45.0014 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6912F60:01C3673D] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7KH97Jl011270 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu If you're interested in movies, two that immediately come to mind are "Bone Collector" and " Murder By Numbers". Check em out. -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:22 AM To: mgsheppo@hotmail.com Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows which I will include in my compilation. Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. Thanks, Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 13:36:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KHaGS8012233 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006201c36741$8e60f580$3dad2a18@xuifzudotduq22> From: "Brian Dixon" To: , References: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:36:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.42.173.61] using ID at Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:36:09 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Carla: I have come late to this discussion, so forgive the possible duplication, but an obvious movie for your list would have to be "Cry in the Dark" with Meryl Streep as Lindy Chamberlain, the mother whose child was abducted by a dingo. Brian Dixon Mississauga, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, > both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. > > I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows > which I will include in my compilation. > > Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. > > Thanks, > > Carla > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > [EndPost by "Brian Dixon" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 13:51:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KHpmqt013104 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:51:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:51:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Carla; I'm a big fan of movies, especially bad ones. I love to be entertained. However, I can only think of one movie that has ever portrayed forensic science in an accurate or informational manner. This would be the original "Manhunter" circa 1984 (the film based on the novel "Red Dragon", which preceeds "Silence of the lambs") with William Peterson of CSI fame. In that film, a handwritten ink note, torn at a crucial point, is collected and analyzed in the lab usign various tests. That sequence is as valid today as it was back then in terms of the nature of the analyses performed. With the exception that the bitemark on the note could now be analyzed for DNA. Beyond that, I've not seen a single film or telivision show which accurately depicts forensic science or forensic casework. In fact, I consider current airings of "documentary" programs on forensic science and forensic casework to be not only biased and inaccurate renderings of real cases, but harmful to legititmate forensic work. They create a false image that others maye feel compelled to live up to, and oversimplify complex casework - often misrepresenting the nature and reliability of findings. Sadly, these speak to a broad audience who internalize them and make professional decisions based on the misinformation therein. Certainly purveyors of those programs would disagree with me. That's a given. However, I would love to hear the thoughts of other forensic scientists on this subject. Who on the list has been told by opposing counsel or a judge that they understand what you are talking about, or grasp a particular concept, because they have seen it on CSI or the Discovery channel? I have at least three times. Each time it was an appeal to oversimplify an evidentiary issue, or to suggest that real forensic scientists do every job in the book. Brent Brent E. Turvey, M.S. Forensic Science Knowledge Solutions, LLC http://www.corpus-delicti.com Academy of Behavioral Profiling http://www.profiling.org ************************************************************************ "To stand up for truth is nothing. For truth you have to sit in jail." -Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of SkipnCar@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:22 AM To: mgsheppo@hotmail.com Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows which I will include in my compilation. Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. Thanks, Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 14:04:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KI4U7W013668 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:04:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Server-Uuid: 429e4873-afee-11d2-bbc3-000083642dfe Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.3 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:03:47 -0700 From: "Geoff Bruton" Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 135D679B976014-01-02 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7KI4TJl013663 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Carla, Has anyone mentioned "(from the files of) Police Squad!" that aired back in the early 80s? It was a TV comedy, which starred Leslie Nielson, and only ran for a short while, I believe. (In fact, was this the genesis of the 'Naked Gun' movies, one of which, at least, also starred O.J.?) Unfortunately, I cannot recall any specifics, per your request, but I always remember that each episode had Nielson's character meeting up with the Crime Lab scientist, who was usually in the throes of something educational with a kid. Knowing what I know now, I'd really like to see them again... Hope this helps. Best wishes to the List, Geoff. Geoff Bruton Ventura County Sheriff's Department Crime Laboratory Firearms & Toolmarks Section [EndPost by "Geoff Bruton" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 14:37:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KIbWdC014842 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39C43FE0C2890740A094E9F847D3FFAD0278070A@jaxclsrvr.armorholdings.com> From: Allen Miller To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:37:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I had an "expert" present himself to our local Public Defender's Office as an expert in the area of trajectory analysis. He based his knowledge on the fact that he had seen it done on CSI. And believe it or not, they actually used him. Allen Miller FDLE retired. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Turvey [mailto:bturvey@corpus-delicti.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:52 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Carla; I'm a big fan of movies, especially bad ones. I love to be entertained. However, I can only think of one movie that has ever portrayed forensic science in an accurate or informational manner. This would be the original "Manhunter" circa 1984 (the film based on the novel "Red Dragon", which preceeds "Silence of the lambs") with William Peterson of CSI fame. In that film, a handwritten ink note, torn at a crucial point, is collected and analyzed in the lab usign various tests. That sequence is as valid today as it was back then in terms of the nature of the analyses performed. With the exception that the bitemark on the note could now be analyzed for DNA. Beyond that, I've not seen a single film or telivision show which accurately depicts forensic science or forensic casework. In fact, I consider current airings of "documentary" programs on forensic science and forensic casework to be not only biased and inaccurate renderings of real cases, but harmful to legititmate forensic work. They create a false image that others maye feel compelled to live up to, and oversimplify complex casework - often misrepresenting the nature and reliability of findings. Sadly, these speak to a broad audience who internalize them and make professional decisions based on the misinformation therein. Certainly purveyors of those programs would disagree with me. That's a given. However, I would love to hear the thoughts of other forensic scientists on this subject. Who on the list has been told by opposing counsel or a judge that they understand what you are talking about, or grasp a particular concept, because they have seen it on CSI or the Discovery channel? I have at least three times. Each time it was an appeal to oversimplify an evidentiary issue, or to suggest that real forensic scientists do every job in the book. Brent Brent E. Turvey, M.S. Forensic Science Knowledge Solutions, LLC http://www.corpus-delicti.com Academy of Behavioral Profiling http://www.profiling.org ************************************************************************ "To stand up for truth is nothing. For truth you have to sit in jail." -Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of SkipnCar@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:22 AM To: mgsheppo@hotmail.com Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows which I will include in my compilation. Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. Thanks, Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by Allen Miller ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 17:30:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KLUD0q019786 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:30:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: "Forens@Statgen.Ncsu.Edu" Cc: "Forensics@Yahoogroups. Com" Subject: [forens] Woman Indicted For Allegedly Planting Human Remains Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:30:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Woman Indicted For Allegedly Planting Human Remains Accused Woman, Dog Well Known For Digging Up Evidence http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2419937/detail.html POSTED: 3:40 p.m. EDT August 20, 2003 UPDATED: 3:48 p.m. EDT August 20, 2003 A federal grand jury indicted a woman Wednesday on charges of evidence tampering, accusing her of planting human remains while assisting police during missing-person searches. ' Video Archive Video: Attorney Angered Over Dog Trainer's Alleged Behavior The indictment levies 10 charges against Sandra M. Anderson, who has made hundreds of searches in the United States and other countries with her cadaver dog, Eagle, the Justice Department said in a statement. They include five counts of falsifying and concealing material facts from federal officers, plus three counts of obstruction of justice and two counts of lying to law enforcement officials for allegedly trying to cover up evidence during the investigation of her conduct. FBI agents arrested Anderson, 43, in April 2002 as she participated in a search in the Huron National Forest in northern Michigan. The indictment says the Midland, Mich., resident planted human remains and fiber evidence during that search and also planted remains during a search at the Proud Lake Recreation Center in January 2002. Anderson, director of the Great Lakes Search and Rescue of Michigan K-9 Unit in Midland, conducts about 200 searches a year with her dog. The FBI began investigating Anderson in 2002 when she and Eagle went to Oscoda to look for the body of missing women. Police in the town apparently accused her of pulling some bones out of her boot and planting them in a stream. Anderson and her dog also helped convict a Plymouth man three years ago for murdering his wife based in part by evidence they found at the man's home, Local 4 reported. The man was accused of dismembering his wife's body and leaving parts in Dearborn and Ohio, Local 4 reported. In December 1999, Anderson's dog found blood in the basement of the convicted murderer. But according to the federal document, a DNA test revealed Anderson's blood was on a hacksaw blade in the basement of the man's home. The hacksaw blade was reportedly never admitted into evidence in the case, but Eagle found several other areas with blood that were used as evidence toward convicting the man. In her response to the allegations, Anderson told Local 4, "It's absolutely ridiculous. Eagle did an incredible job and I absolutely did not plant evidence. Anything we touch has DNA." Anderson and her dog Eagle were used to identify victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. They were also used in the Chandra Levy case and in helping to identify political victims in Panama. Brent E. Turvey, M.S. Forensic Science Knowledge Solutions, LLC http://www.corpus-delicti.com Academy of Behavioral Profiling http://www.profiling.org ************************************************************************ "To stand up for truth is nothing. For truth you have to sit in jail." -Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 17:34:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KLYtEO020093 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:34:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1c5.d617116.2c754369@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:34:33 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I shall be happy to send you the final compilation, Brent. Yes, 'media' forensic science has taken off. And of course, I always wore heels, designer skirts and low cut tops to my crime scenes. Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Aug 20 19:02:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7KN2GSg021941 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:02:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [62.253.64.7] From: To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: RE: [forens] Video Search Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:02:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20030820230214.OEAH7553.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@[10.137.100.72]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I've had computer problems, so I missed my e-mail for the last five days. I don't know if anyone has said this, but London phone numbers have changed. The number listed below is now 020-7230-0325. If somebody else has already pointed this out, please accept my apologies, but I've been catching up on e-mails for the last five hours! Best Wishes Satish > > From: "Aviles, Phil J." > Date: 2003/08/19 Tue PM 02:55:42 GMT > To: > Subject: RE: [forens] Video Search > > I have a copy of that video. It's short, but the slow motion photography is excellent. There is no information on the tape, but there is a telephone number on the jacket: (0171) 230-0325 Metropolitan Police. Hope this helps. > > Phil Aviles > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Koussiafes [mailto:KoussiafesM@dfs.state.fl.us] > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:15 AM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: [forens] Video Search > > > Hello > > I hope someone can help me in locating and obtaining a video. It is about blood spatter pattern interpretation. > > The details I have: > > > Blood in Slow Motion > 1991 > Video > Home Office Main Laboratory > London > > > Any information is appreciated. Thank you very much. > > Perry Michael Koussiafes > Crime Laboratory Analyst > koussiafesm@dfs.state.fl.us > 850-539-8446 > > > [EndPost by "Michael Koussiafes" ] > > [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] > ----------------------------------------- Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ [EndPost by ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 09:13:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LDD1J4003393 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:13:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Hicks, Gretchen D" To: "Forens-l (E-mail)" Subject: Fiber analysis Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:05:44 -0400 For those laboratories that conduct fiber analysis: 1 - Do you report the fiber types that you identify in casework and how specifically (ie - Nylon or Nylon 6,6)? 2 - If you report, do you continue your analysis through to identification even with fibers that you determine to be insignificant? Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Gretchen D. Hicks Forensic Chemist II Maine State Police Crime Laboratory 26 Hospital St. Augusta, ME 04333 P: 207-624-7028 F: 207-624-7123 [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 09:13:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LDDeCl003435 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:13:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Vesalius@att.net To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Movies with forensic information Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:25:59 +0000 What about the Coen Brothers' "Fargo" and "Blood Simple" and "The Man Who Wasn't There." If you have never seen "Blood Simple," please do. > If you're interested in movies, two that immediately come to mind are "Bone > Collector" and " Murder By Numbers". Check em out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:22 AM > To: mgsheppo@hotmail.com > Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > > > Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, > both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. > > I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows > which I will include in my compilation. > > Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. > > Thanks, > > Carla > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 14:50:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LIoB6E015194 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.20030821115137.011e0fa8@email.usc.edu> X-Sender: mrussell@email.usc.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:51:45 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: Marie Russell Subject: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >I am looking to add to my collection of over 500 VCDs of modern forensic show episodes and wish to connect with anyone who may have old "QUINCY" episodes on tape. Also, does anyone know if "Quincy" episodes are currently airing on any of the US TV stations. > >Marie Russell >323 226 5030 [EndPost by Marie Russell ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 15:51:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LJppgY017922 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: LBBisbey@aol.com Message-ID: <35.3c5196cd.2c767cc0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:28 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu quincey episodes are currently airing in the UK on sky satellite - the hallmark channel. As the hallmark channel is an american one they may well be found in the us... best Lori Bisbey --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LBBisbey@aol.com] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 16:06:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LK6MEB018673 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030821200616.39350.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:06:16 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In your profile of the West Memphis Homicides, you classify the murders as "Battered Child Homicide" due to the alleged bite mark on victim Steve Branch. 1. What is your source for the classification of "Battered Child Homicide," as no such classification exists in the CCM? 2. How do you reconcile the classification to the fact that none of the 3 victims were related siblings and only 1 victim was in the custodial care of your prime suspect(s), Mark and Melissa Byers? 3. How do you reconcile the fact that the alleged bitemark is on victim Steve Branch, who was neither related to, nor in the custodial care of your prime suspect(s), Mark and Melissa Byers? 4. How do you reconcile the fact that no bitemarks were present on Chris Byers, the victim who was related to and in the custodial care of your prime suspect(s), Mark and Melissa Byers? Also, you refer to a piece of cloth in Michael Moore's hand, allegedly visible in crime scene photographs. However, other photographs of Michael's hands, specifically one showing his removal from the ditch, clearly indicate that nothing is clutched in his hand? How do you account for this and will you correct the error in your profile? Thanks, L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 16:31:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LKV0ii019683 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030821200616.39350.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Importance: Normal X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu L; Thanks for asking. I can see by your questions that you haven't had access to the full case file, so I'll choose to ignore your accusations. 1. DiMaio & DiMaio (1989) Forensic Pathology, CRC Press (Chapter 12); Adelson (1974) The Pathology of Homicide, Charles C. Thomas Pub. (Ch. 10) 2. The three eight year old boys (the victims) were all in the same boyscout troop of which John Mark Byers was a sometimes leader. They also all hung out together at school and after school, according to Melissa Byers and the records related to Christopher Byers' doctor (the one prescribing him medication for his mental health and conduct disorders). Also, in such a case you could have one primary victim and two collateral victims. 3. See #2 4. The injury to Chris Beyers was most severe, involving the removal of his penis and blunt trauma to the head. The rest each had blunt trauma to the head. Then there was the punitive bitemark. So, see #2. 5. The piece of cloth is there. It is in Moore's hands. I have attached the photo for your benefit. Hope this helps. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:06 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey In your profile of the West Memphis Homicides, you classify the murders as "Battered Child Homicide" due to the alleged bite mark on victim Steve Branch. 1. What is your source for the classification of "Battered Child Homicide," as no such classification exists in the CCM? 2. How do you reconcile the classification to the fact that none of the 3 victims were related siblings and only 1 victim was in the custodial care of your prime suspect(s), Mark and Melissa Byers? 3. How do you reconcile the fact that the alleged bitemark is on victim Steve Branch, who was neither related to, nor in the custodial care of your prime suspect(s), Mark and Melissa Byers? 4. How do you reconcile the fact that no bitemarks were present on Chris Byers, the victim who was related to and in the custodial care of your prime suspect(s), Mark and Melissa Byers? Also, you refer to a piece of cloth in Michael Moore's hand, allegedly visible in crime scene photographs. However, other photographs of Michael's hands, specifically one showing his removal from the ditch, clearly indicate that nothing is clutched in his hand? How do you account for this and will you correct the error in your profile? Thanks, L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) image/jpeg --- [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 18:27:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LMRAlt022546 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:27:10 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <003f01c36832$caad62c0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <3.0.32.20030821115137.011e0fa8@email.usc.edu> Subject: Re: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:22:59 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I know we have them every day on Foxtel in Australia. Not that thats much good. I'll find out from my sister in Los Angeles if she has it on if you like! Regards Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marie Russell" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 4:51 AM Subject: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more > >I am looking to add to my collection of over 500 VCDs of modern forensic > show episodes and wish to connect with anyone who may have old "QUINCY" > episodes on tape. Also, does anyone know if "Quincy" episodes are currently > airing on any of the US TV stations. > > > >Marie Russell > >323 226 5030 > > > [EndPost by Marie Russell ] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 18:34:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LMY8lI022937 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:34:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:35:40 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000b01c36834$8c832960$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <18f.1e4ac5c7.2c6f8ffd@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 22:34:15.0639 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A23CE70:01C36834] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Wow, Carla, that could be some project. If your list is to include any show that ever used forensic science, it's going to be a very long list indeed! You'd have to include just about every series that ever ran on PBS's "Mystery!" - Hercule Poirot, Miss Marple, Lord Peter Wimsey, Tommy and Tuppance, Brother Cadfael, Inspector Morse, etc., etc., -- even Rumpole of the Bailey (an attorney, but he used forensic evidence in trial). For current and past programs, visit the Mystery! Site: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/detectives/index.html Also, while I couldn't stand them because the protagonist always managed to get the suspect to confess simply because he/she figured out how the suspect did it (but usually without any shred of definitive or admissible proof that would sustain a conviction), because forensic science methods were occasionally used you'd also have to include mainstream shows like Murder She Wrote, Father Dowling, etc.. Then there are the off-beat ones like X-Files and Millennium, adventure shows like Nightrider and Mission Impossible, cartoonish ones like the 60's Batman and Green Hornet, and just about every cop/detective/crime show there ever was (they all at least used fingerprints, and usually other forensic science techniques). If you're including movie series, then you have to add old series like Judge Dee, Charlie Chan, The Thin Man, etc. Happy compiling! Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of SkipnCar@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 9:48 AM To: ascld@lab.fws.gov; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; ccoulter@wvu.edu Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows I am compiling vignettes from forensic shows, from Quincy to the present day. Some of them may be 'you-gotta-be-kidding', some may be 'visions into the future' (Remember Dick Tracy and his two-way, wrist radio?), some may be humorous and some may be insightful. Whatever and anything is welcome. I will send you the completed compilation if you submit something to me. Can you recall the title of the show many years back where the cowboy performed forensic analyses? I remember him shooting into a bucket for a known sample. What was the name of the show and its star? I'd also like to make a complete listing of forensic shows over time. What's your favorite? Thanks for your help. I hope to have this completed by late November and will send you the final paper if you tell me your favorites. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 18:35:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LMZPJI023099 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:35:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:36:57 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000c01c36834$bacc86e0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1E84C1C79C624B4F84BDCFC1FC78047BA0EC6C@es908.ci.fort-worth.tx.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 22:35:33.0295 (UTC) FILETIME=[886D2BF0:01C36834] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu This show, "The Wild, Wild West," is one of my wife's favorite oldies and is still found in syndication. Conrad's character was Secret Service Special Agent James West, and Ross Martin played his partner, Artemus Gordon. West was the two-fisted, womanizing, swashbuckling hero, while Gordon was the cerebral master of disguise. It was a sci-fi/fantasy western, and could get pretty weird at times. Most of the "science" shown on the show was found in the scheming machinations and inventions of their arch nemesis, evil genius Michelito Loveless, played broadly by the late, great dwarf actor, Michael Dunn. The movie didn't do the original series justice, and tanked at the box office. There were indeed some depictions of what could be considered fanciful "forensic science," in the TV series, but I can't think of a specific example. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Aviles, Phil J. Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:30 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows I think the star was Robert Conrad. I can't remember the other guy's name. Artemus Gordon was the scientific half of the couple. He was always coming up with some crime fighting gizmo, or figuiring out what the bad guys were doing. I can't remember much about it, but I thought it was unique and entertaining for the time. A movie was made based on the series, starring Will Smith. -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:12 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Phil, can you remember any particulars? Carla --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Aviles, Phil J." ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 18:37:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LMbdrk023448 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:37:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:39:11 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000d01c36835$0a76a950$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 22:37:46.0951 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8177570:01C36834] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Say, Brent, you must not be paying much attention to this list. I (among many others) have been lambasting both CSI and those forensic science documentary shows on cable for their inaccuracies and oversimplifications ever since they first went on the air. In short, we all (or at least most of us) agree with your assessment. While they have raised awareness of and interest in forensic science among the general public, their inattention to detail and unconcern for accuracy is legendary. I firmly feel these shows do more harm than good, and most I have discussed this with and/or who have posted opinions here and in other forensic science discussion lists I belong to hold these shows in similarly low esteem. It's bad enough that lawyers, judges, cops, and students have gained both mistaken impressions and unrealistic expectations of our field as a result, but the thing that really concerns me is the very real possibility that this misinformation is poisoning potential jury pools, affecting the thinking of jurors who might attempt to apply what they "learned" on TV to their deliberations in a real case. That's a truly scary thought. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent Turvey Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:52 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Carla; I'm a big fan of movies, especially bad ones. I love to be entertained. However, I can only think of one movie that has ever portrayed forensic science in an accurate or informational manner. This would be the original "Manhunter" circa 1984 (the film based on the novel "Red Dragon", which preceeds "Silence of the lambs") with William Peterson of CSI fame. In that film, a handwritten ink note, torn at a crucial point, is collected and analyzed in the lab usign various tests. That sequence is as valid today as it was back then in terms of the nature of the analyses performed. With the exception that the bitemark on the note could now be analyzed for DNA. Beyond that, I've not seen a single film or telivision show which accurately depicts forensic science or forensic casework. In fact, I consider current airings of "documentary" programs on forensic science and forensic casework to be not only biased and inaccurate renderings of real cases, but harmful to legititmate forensic work. They create a false image that others maye feel compelled to live up to, and oversimplify complex casework - often misrepresenting the nature and reliability of findings. Sadly, these speak to a broad audience who internalize them and make professional decisions based on the misinformation therein. Certainly purveyors of those programs would disagree with me. That's a given. However, I would love to hear the thoughts of other forensic scientists on this subject. Who on the list has been told by opposing counsel or a judge that they understand what you are talking about, or grasp a particular concept, because they have seen it on CSI or the Discovery channel? I have at least three times. Each time it was an appeal to oversimplify an evidentiary issue, or to suggest that real forensic scientists do every job in the book. Brent Brent E. Turvey, M.S. Forensic Science Knowledge Solutions, LLC http://www.corpus-delicti.com Academy of Behavioral Profiling http://www.profiling.org ************************************************************************ "To stand up for truth is nothing. For truth you have to sit in jail." -Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of SkipnCar@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:22 AM To: mgsheppo@hotmail.com Subject: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Your response has been tremendous with many of you submitting names of shows, both here and abroad. Movies are also of interest to me. I am very interested in individual forensic moments in these or any shows which I will include in my compilation. Search those memory files and tell me your favorite. Thanks, Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 18:38:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LMcVfb023631 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:38:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:40:04 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000e01c36835$29de0f40$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20030821115137.011e0fa8@email.usc.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 22:38:39.0639 (UTC) FILETIME=[F77F0270:01C36834] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Reruns of the show are in syndication, which means that any individual television station (or cable or satellite channel) can show it if they want and pay for it. It's being shown by various local stations all around the country, and also by the Hallmark channel on satellite and cable. Hallmark is showing it one to three times every day, except Saturdays. For the complete schedule, go here: http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/framework.jsp?BODY=program.jsp&CONTENT=DA M_FAM_932840 If you don't get the Hallmark channel, go to any web entertainment listings site (e.g., tvguide.com, zap2it.com, excite.com, gist.com, etc.), click on the TV listings link, type in your zip code and television provider (broadcast, cable, or satellite), and it will give you complete listings of shows available to watch in your local area. You can then use the search page to look for a specific show. If you don't find it, none of the channels available through your TV service provider are showing it. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Marie Russell Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:52 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more >I am looking to add to my collection of over 500 VCDs of modern forensic show episodes and wish to connect with anyone who may have old "QUINCY" episodes on tape. Also, does anyone know if "Quincy" episodes are currently airing on any of the US TV stations. > >Marie Russell >323 226 5030 [EndPost by Marie Russell ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 19:14:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7LNEDUn024716 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:14:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:14:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c36835$0a76a950$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Bob; I always read your posts with interest and often delight. I of course recall your well argued disapproval of CSI and Co. That's why I felt somewhat inspired to give my own opinion and ask for others. I guess I have only seen and recall yours. So thanks for re-rendering it. Interestingly enough, I gave an interview with people magazine today regarding the Sandra Anderson case (see: http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html). They wanted to know whether or not she had a good public image prior to this, and whether or not I was suprised to hear of her recent indictment because of her past accomplishments. They seemed to equate public image and the quasi-celebrity of forensic fame with integrity, competence and professional ability. When she testified in court, her resume consisted of newspaper clippings kept lovingly in a three ring binder, featuring many pictures of herself and her dog, Eagle. Additionally, I am often asked by reporters to recount the famous or sensational cases that I've worked as a means of introduction in a news piece. As though working on sensational or high profile cases is a distinguishing professional credential. And by implication, those who haven't aren't as notable. My point - Media attention and media presence does not equal skill, competence or reliability. But because of the media attention we (the forensic community) are getting, we are heading that way; media credentials as professional credentials. That's sad because the people whose work I respect in this field, whose work has taught me the most, are names I rarely read in print(Thornton, Chisum, Cwiklik, etc...). It's certainly the wrong lesson for students. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Parsons Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:39 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Say, Brent, you must not be paying much attention to this list. I (among many others) have been lambasting both CSI and those forensic science documentary shows on cable for their inaccuracies and oversimplifications ever since they first went on the air. In short, we all (or at least most of us) agree with your assessment. While they have raised awareness of and interest in forensic science among the general public, their inattention to detail and unconcern for accuracy is legendary. I firmly feel these shows do more harm than good, and most I have discussed this with and/or who have posted opinions here and in other forensic science discussion lists I belong to hold these shows in similarly low esteem. It's bad enough that lawyers, judges, cops, and students have gained both mistaken impressions and unrealistic expectations of our field as a result, but the thing that really concerns me is the very real possibility that this misinformation is poisoning potential jury pools, affecting the thinking of jurors who might attempt to apply what they "learned" on TV to their deliberations in a real case. That's a truly scary thought. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 20:11:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7M0B0eA025807 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:11:00 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1cc.f903b0c.2c76b987@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:10:47 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7M0B0eB025807 I had forgotten that! Thanks, Adam. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Thu Aug 21 22:43:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7M2hroU028098 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Gismort@aol.com Message-ID: <95.319103ec.2c76dd60@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:43:44 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] "QUINCY" episodes and more To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I know Quincy was airing either on WE (Women's Entertainment) or the Hallmark Channel, I can't remember which one. I think WE. It is also on WLNY according to the TV Listings --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Gismort@aol.com] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 05:09:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7M992dd003144 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:09:02 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <012901c3688c$82012890$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <1c5.d617116.2c754369@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:05:11 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu And no self-respecting CSI would go without her handbag! I always remember Angie Dickinson in "Policewoman" racing everywhere with that blasted handbag! It put me off her for life! And Carla, don't forget the "must have" makeup! You never know when the TV cameras are going to turn up! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > I shall be happy to send you the final compilation, Brent. Yes, 'media' > forensic science has taken off. And of course, I always wore heels, designer > skirts and low cut tops to my crime scenes. > > Carla > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > Forensic Scientist > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > skipncar@aol.com > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 05:32:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7M9WI42003665 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:32:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.bcpl.net: cdefine owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:32:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Define MD X-X-Sender: cdefine@mail To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux In-Reply-To: <012901c3688c$82012890$6400a8c0@LYNN> Message-ID: References: <1c5.d617116.2c754369@aol.com> <012901c3688c$82012890$6400a8c0@LYNN> X-Organization: BCPL.NET Internet Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn...get real. You HAVE to have a handbag...where else can you keep your MACE! On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Lynn Coceani wrote: > And no self-respecting CSI would go without her handbag! I always remember > Angie Dickinson in "Policewoman" racing everywhere with that blasted > handbag! It put me off her for life! And Carla, don't forget the "must > have" makeup! You never know when the TV cameras are going to turn up! > > > Lynn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:34 AM > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > > > > I shall be happy to send you the final compilation, Brent. Yes, 'media' > > forensic science has taken off. And of course, I always wore heels, > designer > > skirts and low cut tops to my crime scenes. > > > > Carla > > > > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > > Forensic Scientist > > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > > skipncar@aol.com > > > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] > [EndPost by Carol Define MD ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 06:04:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MA4IJZ004284 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F45EA92.841FE364@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:04:02 -0400 From: "Lana Thompson, M.A." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-WNS5.0 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux References: <1c5.d617116.2c754369@aol.com> <012901c3688c$82012890$6400a8c0@LYNN> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Speaking of Angie Dickinson, there was a movie where she is killed in the beginning, in an elevator. The culprit is a man who dresses like a woman. There is a psychiatrist. Maybe the shrink is the murderer. But, I don't remember the name. ......unless it's "Dressed to Kill." L [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 07:44:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MBiK0r005592 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:42:59 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7MBiJJl005587 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lana - you are correct. The name of the movie is "Dressed to Kill" and Michael Cain (sp) played the pysychiatrist. Brad >>> "Lana Thompson, M.A." 08/22 6:04 AM >>> Speaking of Angie Dickinson, there was a movie where she is killed in the beginning, in an elevator. The culprit is a man who dresses like a woman. There is a psychiatrist. Maybe the shrink is the murderer. But, I don't remember the name. ......unless it's "Dressed to Kill." L [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 07:53:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MBrMmc005933 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:53:22 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <000d01c368a3$a57a75d0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <1c5.d617116.2c754369@aol.com> <012901c3688c$82012890$6400a8c0@LYNN> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:50:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu You could stick it down the front of the low cut dress! Along with the "lippie" (lipstick) and compact - after all you don't have to run (normally) so they wouldn't fall out!! Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Define MD" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > > Lynn...get real. You HAVE to have a handbag...where else can you keep > your MACE! > > On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Lynn Coceani wrote: > > > And no self-respecting CSI would go without her handbag! I always remember > > Angie Dickinson in "Policewoman" racing everywhere with that blasted > > handbag! It put me off her for life! And Carla, don't forget the "must > > have" makeup! You never know when the TV cameras are going to turn up! > > > > > > Lynn > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:34 AM > > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > > > > > > > I shall be happy to send you the final compilation, Brent. Yes, 'media' > > > forensic science has taken off. And of course, I always wore heels, > > designer > > > skirts and low cut tops to my crime scenes. > > > > > > Carla > > > > > > > > > Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS > > > Forensic Scientist > > > 8513 Northwest 47 Street > > > Coral Springs, FL 33067 > > > 954-796-8063, telephone & fax > > > skipncar@aol.com > > > > > > Live Well Laugh Often Love Much > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] > > > > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] > > > > [EndPost by Carol Define MD ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 08:12:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MCCNNo006533 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:12:23 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <001701c368a6$3f1de710$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: <1c5.d617116.2c754369@aol.com> <012901c3688c$82012890$6400a8c0@LYNN> <3F45EA92.841FE364@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:09:27 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Now I KNOW I'm going to be showing my age here but remember "Mod Squad!" I'm ashamed to admit that I do! All those Afro hairdos, hipster jeans (my Lord, they're back again now!) and "body shirts"! You sure it wasn't Angie Dickinson who was dressed like man - it wouldn't surprise me! :) I remember a movie called "Dressed To Kill " but it could have been a different one because they give some movies different names when they get to Australia. Does anyone remember the original version, came out about 30 years ago, of "I Saw What You Did and I KNow Who You Are?" Gawd, that frightened the wits out of me then - I was very, very young! . Can anyone remember the name of the movie which I think starred Mark Harmon as a doctor, and he kept trying to send his wife mad, with spiders and things - I'm sure it was based on fact. Was it Deadly Intentions? Rear Window was pretty scary - but if you want to get on the ridiculous side, I was terrified of the Wizard of Oz!!! I was about 8 or 9 when it came out! That green witch stuck with me for years! My but aren't we all clever thinking of all these movies - I know I have better things to do but I can't be bothered! Like studying! Lynn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 08:17:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MCHErI006878 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:17:14 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <001b01c368a6$c36100c0$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:13:09 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Well this just solved my question didn't it! Why do you put (sp) after Michael Cain? Have I missed something again? (That's me!) Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradley Brown" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > Lana - > you are correct. The name of the movie is "Dressed to Kill" and Michael Cain (sp) played the pysychiatrist. > > Brad > > >>> "Lana Thompson, M.A." 08/22 6:04 AM >>> > Speaking of Angie Dickinson, there was a movie where she is killed in the > beginning, in an elevator. The culprit is a man who dresses like a woman. > There is a psychiatrist. Maybe the shrink is the murderer. But, I don't > remember the name. ......unless it's "Dressed to Kill." > > L > > [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] > > > [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 08:51:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MCpX7H008334 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:50:21 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: lynn@hyp.com.au, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7MCpXJl008329 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I wasn't sure if I spelled his name right. The older I get, the worse my spelling becomes... >>> "Lynn Coceani" 08/22 8:13 AM >>> Well this just solved my question didn't it! Why do you put (sp) after Michael Cain? Have I missed something again? (That's me!) Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradley Brown" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > Lana - > you are correct. The name of the movie is "Dressed to Kill" and Michael Cain (sp) played the pysychiatrist. > > Brad > > >>> "Lana Thompson, M.A." 08/22 6:04 AM >>> > Speaking of Angie Dickinson, there was a movie where she is killed in the > beginning, in an elevator. The culprit is a man who dresses like a woman. > There is a psychiatrist. Maybe the shrink is the murderer. But, I don't > remember the name. ......unless it's "Dressed to Kill." > > L > > [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] > > > [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 08:58:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MCw0VA008749 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:56:51 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7MCvxJl008744 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn, sorry. Where did I get Lana? Must be Friday! Brad >>> "Lynn Coceani" 08/22 8:13 AM >>> Well this just solved my question didn't it! Why do you put (sp) after Michael Cain? Have I missed something again? (That's me!) Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradley Brown" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > Lana - > you are correct. The name of the movie is "Dressed to Kill" and Michael Cain (sp) played the pysychiatrist. > > Brad > > >>> "Lana Thompson, M.A." 08/22 6:04 AM >>> > Speaking of Angie Dickinson, there was a movie where she is killed in the > beginning, in an elevator. The culprit is a man who dresses like a woman. > There is a psychiatrist. Maybe the shrink is the murderer. But, I don't > remember the name. ......unless it's "Dressed to Kill." > > L > > [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] > > > [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 09:38:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MDcOfT010035 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030822133823.52938.qmail@web80706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:38:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Forensic lawLab Subject: [forens] Forensic Keyword Search by Keyword on Court Cases To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu What are different ways (paid services, online tools, free self search etc. ) I can use to search all nationwide court cases by specific keywords with respect to inside details in a case (testimony details , forensic evidence etc.). e.g. keyword such as "RFLP" , "TLC", "microdiffusion" and so on. Thanks __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by Forensic lawLab ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 11:02:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MF26ks014294 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:02:06 -0400 (EDT) XAntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses via the Connexus Internet Service Message-ID: <009001c368be$248c5f40$6400a8c0@LYNN> From: "Lynn Coceani" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:00:29 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "Lynn Coceani" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Not to worry, I've been called worse names! LYNN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradley Brown" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > Lynn, sorry. Where did I get Lana? Must be Friday! > > Brad > > >>> "Lynn Coceani" 08/22 8:13 AM >>> > Well this just solved my question didn't it! Why do you put (sp) after > Michael Cain? Have I missed something again? (That's me!) > > Lynn > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bradley Brown" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:42 PM > Subject: Re: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux > > > > Lana - > > you are correct. The name of the movie is "Dressed to Kill" and Michael > Cain (sp) played the pysychiatrist. > > > > Brad > > > > >>> "Lana Thompson, M.A." 08/22 6:04 AM >>> > > Speaking of Angie Dickinson, there was a movie where she is killed in the > > beginning, in an elevator. The culprit is a man who dresses like a woman. > > There is a psychiatrist. Maybe the shrink is the murderer. But, I don't > > remember the name. ......unless it's "Dressed to Kill." > > > > L > > > > [EndPost by "Lana Thompson, M.A." ] > > > > > > [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] > > > [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] > [EndPost by "Lynn Coceani" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 11:13:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MFDwTT014892 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030822151337.1051.qmail@web41409.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:13:37 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Brent Turvey wrote: >>Thanks for asking.<< You're welcome. >>I can see by your questions that you haven't had access to the full case file, so I'll choose to ignore your accusations.<< Actually, I have had access to the full case file. The questions weren't accusations. They were questions. >>1. DiMaio & DiMaio (1989) Forensic Pathology, CRC Press (Chapter 12); Adelson (1974) The Pathology of Homicide, Charles C. Thomas Pub. (Ch. 10)<< So, this classification isn't from the CCM? Interesting. >>2. The three eight year old boys (the victims) were all in the same boyscout troop of which John Mark Byers was a sometimes leader. << I believe, however, that Todd Moore was the primary troop leader. In fact, as I understand it, it was Todd's idea to start the troop. Byers' involvement in the troop was peripheral, at best. >>They also all hung out together at school and after school, according to Melissa Byers and the records related to Christopher Byers' doctor (the one prescribing him medication for his mental health and conduct disorders). << That still doesn't make them related to either Mark or Melissa Byers. Michael Moore wasn't permitted to be in the Byers house, although he was permitted to play with Chris and Chris was welcome in the Moore household. Steve Branch's parents had never met either Mark or Melissa Byers until the night the boys disappeared. Which leads to another interesting point. You allege that Steve Branch was a secondary victim, yet there's nothing in the history to suggest that Mark and/or Melissa Byers would have a reason to have a grudge against him. Michael was the child with whom Chris had gotten into trouble on prior occasions, and Michael was the son of the Byers' former friends, the Moores. >>Also, in such a case you could have one primary victim and two collateral victims.<< Can you name one case of "Battered Child Homicide" in which the child victims were unrelated? >>3. See #2<< However, I would expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" in which bite marks are found, the victim would be related to the biter. In fact, I think it's only logical to expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" that all victims and all perpetrators be related, or have a "connection" (such as a boyfriend/girlfriend living in the household with the victim). Additionally, how do you account for the location of the bitemark on Steve's forehead/brow? That's seems to be quite an unusual place, both physically, as well as according to Mr. Gerberth. >>4. The injury to Chris Beyers was most severe, involving the removal of his penis and blunt trauma to the head.<< That doesn't seem to be very solid evidence on which to base the theory that Chris was the "target." Had Micheal Moore been castrated (as everyone initially believed due to a misidentification), would Todd and Dana Moore become your likely suspects - in spite of their alibis? >>The rest each had blunt trauma to the head. Then there was the punitive bitemark. So, see #2.<< A "punitive" bite mark to a child unrelated to the biter and against whom there is no evidence that the biter could have had a grudge. It just doesn't track. Since you theorize that Chris was the target of the attack, wouldn't it make more sense for the bitemark to be on Chris and not an unrelated child who was a "secondary" target (in spite of the lack of a relationship or reason)? >>5. The piece of cloth is there. It is in Moore's hands. I have attached the photo for your benefit.<< You failed to attach the photograph. I've seen the picture on the WM3 website, but it appears to be "altered." I've also seen crime scene and autopsy photographs in which it's clear that there is nothing in either of Michael's hand. I'll forward one to you privately, since I don't think it's appropriate to include on the list. Perhaps you can do the same for me with the picture you neglected to attach. >>Hope this helps.<< Actually, it didn't help because you failed to answer my questions. You responded with condescension (incorrect I might add) and nonsense. Perhaps you should re-read my questions and try again. Citation to specific evidence would also be helpful. Oh, and one question I forgot to ask you. 5. What evidence supports the theory that the woods were a dumpsite, excluding the alleged lack of blood (which was contradicted by the Luminol tests performed on May 12 and May 13 (which is 1 week, not weeks later as you have alleged in chats)? Thanks, L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 16:51:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MKpa3I028652 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:51:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:51:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <20030822151337.1051.qmail@web41409.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu L; You have my report. I'm sorry it is not sufficient for you. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:14 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Brent Turvey wrote: >>Thanks for asking.<< You're welcome. >>I can see by your questions that you haven't had access to the full case file, so I'll choose to ignore your accusations.<< Actually, I have had access to the full case file. The questions weren't accusations. They were questions. >>1. DiMaio & DiMaio (1989) Forensic Pathology, CRC Press (Chapter 12); Adelson (1974) The Pathology of Homicide, Charles C. Thomas Pub. (Ch. 10)<< So, this classification isn't from the CCM? Interesting. >>2. The three eight year old boys (the victims) were all in the same boyscout troop of which John Mark Byers was a sometimes leader. << I believe, however, that Todd Moore was the primary troop leader. In fact, as I understand it, it was Todd's idea to start the troop. Byers' involvement in the troop was peripheral, at best. >>They also all hung out together at school and after school, according to Melissa Byers and the records related to Christopher Byers' doctor (the one prescribing him medication for his mental health and conduct disorders). << That still doesn't make them related to either Mark or Melissa Byers. Michael Moore wasn't permitted to be in the Byers house, although he was permitted to play with Chris and Chris was welcome in the Moore household. Steve Branch's parents had never met either Mark or Melissa Byers until the night the boys disappeared. Which leads to another interesting point. You allege that Steve Branch was a secondary victim, yet there's nothing in the history to suggest that Mark and/or Melissa Byers would have a reason to have a grudge against him. Michael was the child with whom Chris had gotten into trouble on prior occasions, and Michael was the son of the Byers' former friends, the Moores. >>Also, in such a case you could have one primary victim and two collateral victims.<< Can you name one case of "Battered Child Homicide" in which the child victims were unrelated? >>3. See #2<< However, I would expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" in which bite marks are found, the victim would be related to the biter. In fact, I think it's only logical to expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" that all victims and all perpetrators be related, or have a "connection" (such as a boyfriend/girlfriend living in the household with the victim). Additionally, how do you account for the location of the bitemark on Steve's forehead/brow? That's seems to be quite an unusual place, both physically, as well as according to Mr. Gerberth. >>4. The injury to Chris Beyers was most severe, involving the removal of his penis and blunt trauma to the head.<< That doesn't seem to be very solid evidence on which to base the theory that Chris was the "target." Had Micheal Moore been castrated (as everyone initially believed due to a misidentification), would Todd and Dana Moore become your likely suspects - in spite of their alibis? >>The rest each had blunt trauma to the head. Then there was the punitive bitemark. So, see #2.<< A "punitive" bite mark to a child unrelated to the biter and against whom there is no evidence that the biter could have had a grudge. It just doesn't track. Since you theorize that Chris was the target of the attack, wouldn't it make more sense for the bitemark to be on Chris and not an unrelated child who was a "secondary" target (in spite of the lack of a relationship or reason)? >>5. The piece of cloth is there. It is in Moore's hands. I have attached the photo for your benefit.<< You failed to attach the photograph. I've seen the picture on the WM3 website, but it appears to be "altered." I've also seen crime scene and autopsy photographs in which it's clear that there is nothing in either of Michael's hand. I'll forward one to you privately, since I don't think it's appropriate to include on the list. Perhaps you can do the same for me with the picture you neglected to attach. >>Hope this helps.<< Actually, it didn't help because you failed to answer my questions. You responded with condescension (incorrect I might add) and nonsense. Perhaps you should re-read my questions and try again. Citation to specific evidence would also be helpful. Oh, and one question I forgot to ask you. 5. What evidence supports the theory that the woods were a dumpsite, excluding the alleged lack of blood (which was contradicted by the Luminol tests performed on May 12 and May 13 (which is 1 week, not weeks later as you have alleged in chats)? Thanks, L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 16:55:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MKtWwU028921 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jack.Reid@mail.state.ky.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:55:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu That may be the shortest response ever from Mr. Turvey. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Turvey [mailto:bturvey@corpus-delicti.com] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 4:52 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey L; You have my report. I'm sorry it is not sufficient for you. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:14 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Brent Turvey wrote: >>Thanks for asking.<< You're welcome. >>I can see by your questions that you haven't had access to the full case file, so I'll choose to ignore your accusations.<< Actually, I have had access to the full case file. The questions weren't accusations. They were questions. >>1. DiMaio & DiMaio (1989) Forensic Pathology, CRC Press (Chapter 12); Adelson (1974) The Pathology of Homicide, Charles C. Thomas Pub. (Ch. 10)<< So, this classification isn't from the CCM? Interesting. >>2. The three eight year old boys (the victims) were all in the same boyscout troop of which John Mark Byers was a sometimes leader. << I believe, however, that Todd Moore was the primary troop leader. In fact, as I understand it, it was Todd's idea to start the troop. Byers' involvement in the troop was peripheral, at best. >>They also all hung out together at school and after school, according to Melissa Byers and the records related to Christopher Byers' doctor (the one prescribing him medication for his mental health and conduct disorders). << That still doesn't make them related to either Mark or Melissa Byers. Michael Moore wasn't permitted to be in the Byers house, although he was permitted to play with Chris and Chris was welcome in the Moore household. Steve Branch's parents had never met either Mark or Melissa Byers until the night the boys disappeared. Which leads to another interesting point. You allege that Steve Branch was a secondary victim, yet there's nothing in the history to suggest that Mark and/or Melissa Byers would have a reason to have a grudge against him. Michael was the child with whom Chris had gotten into trouble on prior occasions, and Michael was the son of the Byers' former friends, the Moores. >>Also, in such a case you could have one primary victim and two collateral victims.<< Can you name one case of "Battered Child Homicide" in which the child victims were unrelated? >>3. See #2<< However, I would expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" in which bite marks are found, the victim would be related to the biter. In fact, I think it's only logical to expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" that all victims and all perpetrators be related, or have a "connection" (such as a boyfriend/girlfriend living in the household with the victim). Additionally, how do you account for the location of the bitemark on Steve's forehead/brow? That's seems to be quite an unusual place, both physically, as well as according to Mr. Gerberth. >>4. The injury to Chris Beyers was most severe, involving the removal of his penis and blunt trauma to the head.<< That doesn't seem to be very solid evidence on which to base the theory that Chris was the "target." Had Micheal Moore been castrated (as everyone initially believed due to a misidentification), would Todd and Dana Moore become your likely suspects - in spite of their alibis? >>The rest each had blunt trauma to the head. Then there was the punitive bitemark. So, see #2.<< A "punitive" bite mark to a child unrelated to the biter and against whom there is no evidence that the biter could have had a grudge. It just doesn't track. Since you theorize that Chris was the target of the attack, wouldn't it make more sense for the bitemark to be on Chris and not an unrelated child who was a "secondary" target (in spite of the lack of a relationship or reason)? >>5. The piece of cloth is there. It is in Moore's hands. I have attached the photo for your benefit.<< You failed to attach the photograph. I've seen the picture on the WM3 website, but it appears to be "altered." I've also seen crime scene and autopsy photographs in which it's clear that there is nothing in either of Michael's hand. I'll forward one to you privately, since I don't think it's appropriate to include on the list. Perhaps you can do the same for me with the picture you neglected to attach. >>Hope this helps.<< Actually, it didn't help because you failed to answer my questions. You responded with condescension (incorrect I might add) and nonsense. Perhaps you should re-read my questions and try again. Citation to specific evidence would also be helpful. Oh, and one question I forgot to ask you. 5. What evidence supports the theory that the woods were a dumpsite, excluding the alleged lack of blood (which was contradicted by the Luminol tests performed on May 12 and May 13 (which is 1 week, not weeks later as you have alleged in chats)? Thanks, L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by Jack.Reid@mail.state.ky.us] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 17:19:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MLJcCZ029841 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:19:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:19:31 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Jack; I've been responding to the same 4 or 5 people (L. Deshong included) for years re: west memphis. My report is a matter of public record and so is my testimony. These few and vocal detractors make false statements and accusations to bait you out. Then they quickly move on as you reveal their factual innaccuracies and answer their questions. It is as pointless as it is time consuming. People should visit www.wm3.org and come to their own conclusions. Lots of testimony and evidence is archived their. That help? Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Jack.Reid@mail.state.ky.us Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey That may be the shortest response ever from Mr. Turvey. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Turvey [mailto:bturvey@corpus-delicti.com] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 4:52 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey L; You have my report. I'm sorry it is not sufficient for you. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:14 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Brent Turvey wrote: >>Thanks for asking.<< You're welcome. >>I can see by your questions that you haven't had access to the full case file, so I'll choose to ignore your accusations.<< Actually, I have had access to the full case file. The questions weren't accusations. They were questions. >>1. DiMaio & DiMaio (1989) Forensic Pathology, CRC Press (Chapter 12); Adelson (1974) The Pathology of Homicide, Charles C. Thomas Pub. (Ch. 10)<< So, this classification isn't from the CCM? Interesting. >>2. The three eight year old boys (the victims) were all in the same boyscout troop of which John Mark Byers was a sometimes leader. << I believe, however, that Todd Moore was the primary troop leader. In fact, as I understand it, it was Todd's idea to start the troop. Byers' involvement in the troop was peripheral, at best. >>They also all hung out together at school and after school, according to Melissa Byers and the records related to Christopher Byers' doctor (the one prescribing him medication for his mental health and conduct disorders). << That still doesn't make them related to either Mark or Melissa Byers. Michael Moore wasn't permitted to be in the Byers house, although he was permitted to play with Chris and Chris was welcome in the Moore household. Steve Branch's parents had never met either Mark or Melissa Byers until the night the boys disappeared. Which leads to another interesting point. You allege that Steve Branch was a secondary victim, yet there's nothing in the history to suggest that Mark and/or Melissa Byers would have a reason to have a grudge against him. Michael was the child with whom Chris had gotten into trouble on prior occasions, and Michael was the son of the Byers' former friends, the Moores. >>Also, in such a case you could have one primary victim and two collateral victims.<< Can you name one case of "Battered Child Homicide" in which the child victims were unrelated? >>3. See #2<< However, I would expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" in which bite marks are found, the victim would be related to the biter. In fact, I think it's only logical to expect that in a "Battered Child Homicide" that all victims and all perpetrators be related, or have a "connection" (such as a boyfriend/girlfriend living in the household with the victim). Additionally, how do you account for the location of the bitemark on Steve's forehead/brow? That's seems to be quite an unusual place, both physically, as well as according to Mr. Gerberth. >>4. The injury to Chris Beyers was most severe, involving the removal of his penis and blunt trauma to the head.<< That doesn't seem to be very solid evidence on which to base the theory that Chris was the "target." Had Micheal Moore been castrated (as everyone initially believed due to a misidentification), would Todd and Dana Moore become your likely suspects - in spite of their alibis? >>The rest each had blunt trauma to the head. Then there was the punitive bitemark. So, see #2.<< A "punitive" bite mark to a child unrelated to the biter and against whom there is no evidence that the biter could have had a grudge. It just doesn't track. Since you theorize that Chris was the target of the attack, wouldn't it make more sense for the bitemark to be on Chris and not an unrelated child who was a "secondary" target (in spite of the lack of a relationship or reason)? >>5. The piece of cloth is there. It is in Moore's hands. I have attached the photo for your benefit.<< You failed to attach the photograph. I've seen the picture on the WM3 website, but it appears to be "altered." I've also seen crime scene and autopsy photographs in which it's clear that there is nothing in either of Michael's hand. I'll forward one to you privately, since I don't think it's appropriate to include on the list. Perhaps you can do the same for me with the picture you neglected to attach. >>Hope this helps.<< Actually, it didn't help because you failed to answer my questions. You responded with condescension (incorrect I might add) and nonsense. Perhaps you should re-read my questions and try again. Citation to specific evidence would also be helpful. Oh, and one question I forgot to ask you. 5. What evidence supports the theory that the woods were a dumpsite, excluding the alleged lack of blood (which was contradicted by the Luminol tests performed on May 12 and May 13 (which is 1 week, not weeks later as you have alleged in chats)? Thanks, L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by Jack.Reid@mail.state.ky.us] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 18:30:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MMURcN001863 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00e701c368fe$14aefca0$386f2ac8@quesca> From: "Quesada-Scatena" To: "forens" Subject: [forens] triexifenidilo =trihexyphenidyl Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:21:19 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7MMURcO001863 En blancoI am wondering if some one in the list have experience about abuse of triexifenidilo (ARTANE) asociated with alcohol, practice that is rather common in certain of in certain groups of people in our area. I am interested in the effect that could cause in the mind of a person, and if its may compromise the ability to understand what is he doing i.e.they are reponsable or nor to the law if they commit a crime. The effect may favour criminal actions? What are the doses that could couse that effects, if so. In this country it is presented in 5 mgrs tablets, and usually they took a couple of tables with two o three bottles (one litre each) of beer and this is claimed as a lack of responsibility for the defense. Of course one try to demostrate if the person was conciuos or not of what he was doing, but I could not find much information about the combination besides the side effects of the drug alone ( euphoria, hallucination). Any help will be welcome, Thanks in advance Dr. Adolfo Scatena Medico Forense 2Ş Circunsc Judicial Gral Roca, Rio Negro ARGENTINA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif --- [EndPost by "Quesada-Scatena" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 22 19:47:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7MNlLhr003143 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1609354.1061596035432.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp11> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:47:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Theodore Mozer To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] News Alerts Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: CC Mailer IV X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7MNlLhs003143 There seems to be a lot of interest in Forensic Science in the news of this list (how 'bout that!!). This seems a nice way to keep up..... This once-a-day News Alert brought to you by Google News (BETA)... FORENSIC Science Institute sued for crass mistake - Puerto Rico Wow, Puerto Rico SAN JUAN (AP) – A family from Canovanas is suing the Forensic Science Institute, accusing them of mistakenly giving them the body of a person who was not ... POPULAR 'CSI' boosts interest in forensic science on campus - Henderson Gleaner, KY ... top-rated show last season - and its spinoff, "CSI: Miami," which ranked 14th in the Nielsen ratings, have created a whirlwind of interest in forensic science. ... CYANIDE responsible for hooch tragedy - Gunaah, India The city-based Forensic Science Laboratories have found traces of Cyanide in viscera samples of a deceased person and inside glasses of liquor during ... COUSIN, milkman under lens - Chandigarh Newsline, India ... The police put the cousin, who is a turbaned youth, through a lie-detector test at Central Forensic Science Laboratory (CFSL), today. ... GRISLY: A scene from the new programme - Manchester Evening News, UK ... It is being used to teach forensic science students crime detection techniques such as fingerprinting and blood-splatter patterning. ... 'CSI' Spinoffs: Future Crime Scene Investigators - Washington Post, DC ... Several colleges report waiting lists for forensic science courses, and dozens of others are developing courses or entire programs in the science of crime ... DIRTY deeds - Sydney Morning Herald, Australia ... Crime Scene: The Ultimate Guide to Forensic Science, by Richard Platt, is published by Dorling Kindersley, $45. Gabrielle Lord's ... NEW evidence found at supected Donner Party camp - Sierra Sun, CA ... Within the past 10 years, technological advances in forensic science, such as DNA analysis, allows us to extract evidence from artifacts like crime scene ... SERRA ’ s sister pitches forensic science to Congress - Middletown Press, CT ... The federal government should not overemphasize funding for DNA testing at the expense of less glamorous, but equally important forms of forensic science, the ... POLICE take care with information on shootings - Huntington Herald Dispatch, WV ... major break in the case, the investigation will be slow and methodical, said Dr. Terry Fenger, director of the Forensic Science Center at Marshall University. ... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Remove this News Alert: http://www.google.com/newsalerts/remove?s=8c6d178effedcfaa Create another News Alert: http://www.google.com/newsalerts Try Google News: http://news.google.com/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) --- [EndPost by Theodore Mozer ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 23 16:36:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7NKauTY017364 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030823134204.0393f730@pop3.pe.net> X-Sender: staggs@pop3.pe.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:42:36 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: Steven Staggs Subject: [forens] Re: In-Reply-To: <200308230359.h7N3x1wv006790@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime scenes in 1962? ---Steve [EndPost by Steven Staggs ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 23 17:17:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7NLHfMb018892 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:17:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Eljnsjr@aol.com Message-ID: <23.33e7cee1.2c7933eb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:17:31 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Re: To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10690 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear Steve: I don't know if the black light was used at crime scenes in 1962. However the literature shows that UV radiation was certainly used to look for semen stains as early as 1937. Dr. Robert Wood (of Wood's Lamp fame) used UV radiation to examine all sorts of things in the early 1900s. In 1975 there was a large (about 10-15 lb.) portable battery operated UV lamp that was part of my crime scene equipment that I inherited from a policeman/ID technician. That portable UV lamp looked old in 1975 and it was used to search for semen at crime scenes before 1975. Ed Jones, forensic scientist Ventura Sheriff's Crime Lab Ventura, CA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Eljnsjr@aol.com] From forens-owner Sat Aug 23 18:55:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7NMt1hM020496 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:55:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [63.200.65.218] X-Originating-Email: [halverjl@hotmail.com] From: "Joy Halverson" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] DNA extraction from urine stains Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:54:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 22:54:53.0321 (UTC) FILETIME=[90AE9790:01C369C9] Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Does anyone have suggestions for extraction of DNA from urine stains on carpets or draperies? I understand it is not unusual for thieves to leave their traces (dog-like) on the victims territory. thanks-Joy _________________________________________________________________ Enter for your chance to IM with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow Wow, or Mary J Blige using MSN Messenger http://entertainment.msn.com/imastar [EndPost by "Joy Halverson" ] From forens-owner Sat Aug 23 22:08:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7O28oJM023061 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c369e4$ae316ac0$3ca32640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030823134204.0393f730@pop3.pe.net> Subject: Re: [forens] Re: Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:08:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I have a 1962 edition of "Modern Criminal Investigation" by Harry Soderman and John O'Connell. It describes the ultraviolet lamp as "One of the oldest and best publicized of police laboratory instruments ..." and notes that semen stains fluoresce. The book also recommends UV lamps be included in crime scene kits. I think it's safe to say they would have been used by well-equipped investigators to search for semen stains. LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Staggs" To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: [forens] Re: > Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black > light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime > scenes in 1962? > > ---Steve > > > [EndPost by Steven Staggs ] > > [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 24 01:28:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7O5Sf0o025763 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Re: "Black Light" Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:27:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <00af01c369e4$ae316ac0$3ca32640@8sv5f01> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Bob & Steve; I have a first Ed. of Soderman & O'Connell. They don't write them like that anymore. Gross, H. (1924) Criminal Investigation, 3rd Ed., London: Sweet and Maxwell Limited p.170 "The latest developments of science, in allying ultra-violet rays with photography, have opened up enormous possibilities in criminal investigation." P. 179 "Modern developments in ultra-violet light and with infra-red plates have enormously increased the possibilities of showing up latent marks or carefully prepared alterations." p. 518 An entire paragraph details the use of ultra-violet light to illuminate erasures and alterations on documents. Semen and sperm are not mentioned in connection with this kind of analysis. But it couldn't have been far away. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Bob Kegel Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:09 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Re: I have a 1962 edition of "Modern Criminal Investigation" by Harry Soderman and John O'Connell. It describes the ultraviolet lamp as "One of the oldest and best publicized of police laboratory instruments ..." and notes that semen stains fluoresce. The book also recommends UV lamps be included in crime scene kits. I think it's safe to say they would have been used by well-equipped investigators to search for semen stains. LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Staggs" To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: [forens] Re: > Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black > light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime > scenes in 1962? > > ---Steve > > > [EndPost by Steven Staggs ] > > [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 24 11:49:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7OFnIa5002733 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030824154901.92302.qmail@web80706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Forensic lawLab Subject: [forens] Forensic tools/techniques used in court cases: Keyword search To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu What are different ways (paid services, online tools, free self search etc. ) I can use to search all nationwide court cases by specific keywords with respect to inside details in a case (testimony details , forensic evidence etc.). e.g. keyword such as "RFLP" , "TLC", "microdiffusion" and so on. You may also reply to me at forensiclawlab@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by Forensic lawLab ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 24 15:38:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7OJcScK007784 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:38:28 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <132.23aded48.2c7a6e1f@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:38:07 EDT Subject: [forens] Semen Stains To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Most semen stains fluoresce, so UV light is often used to help locate stains, both to retrieve as at a crime scene, and to test, as in a laboratory. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Sun Aug 24 18:37:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7OMbEDs009911 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:37:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: "Forens@Statgen. Ncsu. Edu" Subject: RE: [forens] Re: "Black Light" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:37:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu And now that I've actually read it... O'Connell, J. & Soderman, H. (1936) Modern Criminal Investigation, New York: Funk & Wagnalls, Co. (p.239): "The location of the stains [of semen] is easily determined under the light of the ultra-violet rays because of their characteristic and strong luminescence." Brent -----Original Message----- From: Brent Turvey [mailto:bturvey@corpus-delicti.com] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:28 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Re: "Black Light" Bob & Steve; I have a first Ed. of Soderman & O'Connell. They don't write them like that anymore. Gross, H. (1924) Criminal Investigation, 3rd Ed., London: Sweet and Maxwell Limited p.170 "The latest developments of science, in allying ultra-violet rays with photography, have opened up enormous possibilities in criminal investigation." P. 179 "Modern developments in ultra-violet light and with infra-red plates have enormously increased the possibilities of showing up latent marks or carefully prepared alterations." p. 518 An entire paragraph details the use of ultra-violet light to illuminate erasures and alterations on documents. Semen and sperm are not mentioned in connection with this kind of analysis. But it couldn't have been far away. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Bob Kegel Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:09 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Re: I have a 1962 edition of "Modern Criminal Investigation" by Harry Soderman and John O'Connell. It describes the ultraviolet lamp as "One of the oldest and best publicized of police laboratory instruments ..." and notes that semen stains fluoresce. The book also recommends UV lamps be included in crime scene kits. I think it's safe to say they would have been used by well-equipped investigators to search for semen stains. LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Staggs" To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: [forens] Re: > Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black > light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime > scenes in 1962? > > ---Steve > > > [EndPost by Steven Staggs ] > > [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Sun Aug 24 18:45:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7OMjRx9010336 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:03:59 -0500 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: Dale Nute Subject: Re: [forens] Re: Steve, O'Hara & Osterburg was written in 1949 and described the use for stains. I used a portable UV light for scenes when I started in 1966. Dale At 01:42 PM 8/23/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black >light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime >scenes in 1962? > >---Steve > > >[EndPost by Steven Staggs ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 11:17:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PFHgx4025796 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030825151736.22044.qmail@web41411.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:17:36 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Brent Turvey wrote: >>I've been responding to the same 4 or 5 people (L. Deshong included) for years re: west memphis.<< I've never posed my questions to you before. So you're mistaken about that. >>My report is a matter of public record and so is my testimony.<< However, the questions I posed to you aren't covered in either. That was why I asked questions, Mr. Turvey. >>These few and vocal detractors make false statements and accusations to bait you out.<< If I wanted to bait you out, I wouldn't ask you questions, Mr. Turvey. >>Then they quickly move on as you reveal their factual innaccuracies and answer their questions.<< Give it your best shot. I think everyone here will agree that you didn't answer the questions. And if you're going to concentrate on "factual inaccuracies," perhaps you should remedy some of your own. Such as your failure to deduce that Chris and Michael lived across the street from each other. Your report states that Dana Moore "arrived in the Byers neighborhood" or something to that effect. Additionally, you failed to include the presence of Todd Moore and Terry Hobbs in the Moore and Hobbs households. >>It is as pointless as it is time consuming.<< What are you trying to hide, Mr. Turvey? >>People should visit www.wm3.org and come to their own conclusions. Lots of testimony and evidence is archived their.<< A better place for information about the case is www.callahan.8k.com. There are many more documents there, without editorial opinion. In fact, I'll bet that there are quite a few documents there that Mr. Turvey's never seen before. >>That help?<< Not particularly. L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 11:52:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PFqDc8027590 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.4 Beta Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:20 -0700 From: terry.spear@doj.ca.gov (Terry Spear) To: Subject: Re: [forens] Semen Stains Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Guinevere: 2.0.12 ; DOJ HDC IT Procureme X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7PFqDc9027590 In our experience, we have found that it can be surprisingly difficult to locate some semen stains. We placed 20ul semen stains [in addition to blood & saliva & urine] on a variety of different clothing articles and then had these articles searched by two different people using a variety of different light sources (including UV long & short wave). The two people who did the searching for biological stains did not know where the stains had been placed. What we found is that one person detected the semen stains 67% of the time on light articles/the other person detected the stains 20% of the time on light articles [13 total semen stains]. None of the semen stains [total of 9 stains] placed on dark items were ever detected. Since we found this failure rate a little surprising, we went back to look at these areas and found that, for the most part, these stains were really not visible, regardless of the light source we used. It is clear that detection of semen (and other body fluids) is impacted by the color and weave of the fabric substrate. Just a reminder not to rely too heavily on light sources to find biological evidence. Terry Spear CA Criminalistics Institute Sacramento, California (916) 227-35757 _____________________________________________ And now that I've actually read it... O'Connell, J. & Soderman, H. (1936) Modern Criminal Investigation, New York: Funk & Wagnalls, Co. (p.239): "The location of the stains [of semen] is easily determined under the light of the ultra-violet rays because of their characteristic and strong luminescence." Brent >>> SkipnCar@aol.com 08/24/03 12:38PM >>> Most semen stains fluoresce, so UV light is often used to help locate stains, both to retrieve as at a crime scene, and to test, as in a laboratory. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by terry.spear@doj.ca.gov (Terry Spear)] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 12:38:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PGcdYZ028808 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:37:22 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Semen Stains Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7PGcchm028803 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Terry - Thanks for posting the results of this study. I usually have the best success using an ALS at 445 - 455 nm with yellow glasses when searching for seminal fluid stains. I agree that it is difficult is not impossible to detect seminal fluid on some substrates using alternate light sources alone, regardless of the wavelength / filters used. Also, in my experience, the use of these light sources to detect otherwise "invisible" blood stains is extremely limited. I have detected blood at 515 nm with clear glasses due to the absorbance of the light by the blood. Brad Brown Forensic Scientist II New York State Police Forensic Investigation Center Albany, NY >>> Terry Spear 08/25 11:51 AM >>> In our experience, we have found that it can be surprisingly difficult to locate some semen stains. We placed 20ul semen stains [in addition to blood & saliva & urine] on a variety of different clothing articles and then had these articles searched by two different people using a variety of different light sources (including UV long & short wave). The two people who did the searching for biological stains did not know where the stains had been placed. What we found is that one person detected the semen stains 67% of the time on light articles/the other person detected the stains 20% of the time on light articles [13 total semen stains]. None of the semen stains [total of 9 stains] placed on dark items were ever detected. Since we found this failure rate a little surprising, we went back to look at these areas and found that, for the most part, these stains were really not visible, regardless of the light source we used. It is clear that detection of semen (and other bod! y fluids) is impacted by the color and weave of the fabric substrate. Just a reminder not to rely too heavily on light sources to find biological evidence. Terry Spear CA Criminalistics Institute Sacramento, California (916) 227-35757 _____________________________________________ And now that I've actually read it... O'Connell, J. & Soderman, H. (1936) Modern Criminal Investigation, New York: Funk & Wagnalls, Co. (p.239): "The location of the stains [of semen] is easily determined under the light of the ultra-violet rays because of their characteristic and strong luminescence." Brent >>> SkipnCar@aol.com 08/24/03 12:38PM >>> Most semen stains fluoresce, so UV light is often used to help locate stains, both to retrieve as at a crime scene, and to test, as in a laboratory. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by terry.spear@doj.ca.gov (Terry Spear)] [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 13:46:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PHkjBt001405 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:46:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:46:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030825151736.22044.qmail@web41411.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu L; Give us a break. This a politicol effort on your part as opposed to a search for the truth. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that people are hiding it from you. And yes, you have written me in the past. Numerous times. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of L DeShong Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:18 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey Brent Turvey wrote: >>I've been responding to the same 4 or 5 people (L. Deshong included) for years re: west memphis.<< I've never posed my questions to you before. So you're mistaken about that. >>My report is a matter of public record and so is my testimony.<< However, the questions I posed to you aren't covered in either. That was why I asked questions, Mr. Turvey. >>These few and vocal detractors make false statements and accusations to bait you out.<< If I wanted to bait you out, I wouldn't ask you questions, Mr. Turvey. >>Then they quickly move on as you reveal their factual innaccuracies and answer their questions.<< Give it your best shot. I think everyone here will agree that you didn't answer the questions. And if you're going to concentrate on "factual inaccuracies," perhaps you should remedy some of your own. Such as your failure to deduce that Chris and Michael lived across the street from each other. Your report states that Dana Moore "arrived in the Byers neighborhood" or something to that effect. Additionally, you failed to include the presence of Todd Moore and Terry Hobbs in the Moore and Hobbs households. >>It is as pointless as it is time consuming.<< What are you trying to hide, Mr. Turvey? >>People should visit www.wm3.org and come to their own conclusions. Lots of testimony and evidence is archived their.<< A better place for information about the case is www.callahan.8k.com. There are many more documents there, without editorial opinion. In fact, I'll bet that there are quite a few documents there that Mr. Turvey's never seen before. >>That help?<< Not particularly. L. DeShong --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 14:07:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PI7Z83002138 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:07:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: "L DeShong" Cc: "Forens@Statgen.Ncsu.Edu" Subject: [forens] RE: As Promised - No Cloth Pictures Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:07:27 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: <20030825155104.24116.qmail@web41413.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu L; Here is a better photo. Brent -----Original Message----- From: L DeShong [mailto:l_deshong@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:51 AM To: bturvey@corpus-delicti.com Subject: As Promised - No Cloth Pictures Dear Mr. Turvey: Attached are photographs which clearly show no piece of cloth in Michael's hand. L. Deshong Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) image/jpeg --- [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 15:00:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PJ0D9I004454 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:59:15 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 15:03:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PJ3eGv004746 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:02:25 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] camera Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7PJ3dhm004739 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu A few years back, I remember seeing an ad for a camera which took both 35 mm as well as digital photos. It converted by way of a drop-in component shaped like a film canister. Is anyone familiar with this camera? Thanks Brad Brown Forensic Scientist II New York State Police Forensic Investigation Center [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 15:44:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PJiTes006556 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030825194428.71155.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Cathy OReilly Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 15:53:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PJr9NM006951 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:53:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030825194428.71155.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cathy; I get that same email 5x a day. I do my best, but I can't respond to everyone. Sorry you got left out, but I'm not sure that I agree that it is my duty to respond to every email sent by a teacher. I try, but to expect it is a little much. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Cathy OReilly Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:44 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 16:23:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PKN3as008375 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00b801c36b46$ae0769b0$5fa12640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] camera Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:22:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu On Monday, August 25, 2003, 12:02 PM, Bradley Brown wrote: > A few years back, I remember seeing an ad for a camera which took both 35 mm as well as digital photos. It converted by way of a drop-in component shaped like a film canister. Is anyone familiar with this camera? You're thinking of Imagek / Siliconfilm. The product exists only on their website, http://www.siliconfilm.com/ . LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA [EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 16:30:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PKUkqJ008751 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:30:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-From: Webster@forensic-science.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:18 +0100 (BST) From: Webster@forensic-science.co.uk (Mark Webster) Subject: Re: [forens] camera To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu CC: bbrown@troopers.state.ny.us, Webster@forensic-science.co.uk In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Ameol-Version: 2.53.2014, Windows 98 4.10.1998 ( ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu The Imagek EFS, now Silicon film EFS? Vapourware. It wouldn't be any good anyway given the disparity between the frame size of 35mm film and electronic detectors. >From the silicon film website: http://www.siliconfilm.com/ "The SiliconFilm EFS is not yet available*. If you are interested in purchasing the EFS when it does become available please send us an email at info@siliconfilm.com. If you are a qualified investor and are interested in contacting us about investment opportunities please email us for more information". * It hasn't been available since about 1998! Mark Webster [EndPost by Webster@forensic-science.co.uk (Mark Webster)] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 16:48:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PKmrnl010029 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030825204832.94216.qmail@web41405.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT) From: L DeShong Subject: RE: [forens] Questions for Mr. Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Brent Turvey wrote: >>Give us a break. This a politicol effort on your part as opposed to a search for the truth.<< Do you mean "political." Again, I would not be asking you questions, or trying to ascertain your reasoning if this were political, Mr. Turvey. >>Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that people are hiding it from you.<< Your report offers no evidence or reasoning that explains your conclusions. For example, I would expect that 99.9999% of the time, a battered child homicide/domestic homicide would involve related victims, not unrelated victims. Likewise, in a case in which bitemarks are found in a battered child homicide, I would expect the biter to be related to the bitee. >>And yes, you have written me in the past. Numerous times.<< I wrote you specifically related to your posts regarding Richard Walter. Didn't that hearing conclude recently? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by L DeShong ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 16:58:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PKwrp9010600 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:58:53 -0400 (EDT) From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: <169.2309d1d2.2c7bd273@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:58:27 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 8/25/2003 3:46:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, coreilly2003@yahoo.com writes: I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to such a request, unless you are teaching profiling. David --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LeonStein@aol.com] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:10:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLA4K5011560 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:10:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: [forens] Forensic Fraud Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:09:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030825204832.94216.qmail@web41405.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu List members; Since I learned a lot from the group in our discussions, I'm pleased to pass this along. Though some will undoubtedly dispute my conclusions, the reasearch and data will still be useful. Brent E. Turvey, MS1 Title: "Forensic Frauds: A study of 42 Cases" Reference: Turvey, B. "Forensic Frauds: A Study of 42 Cases," Journal of Behavioral Profiling, April, 2003, Vol. 4, No. 1 Abstract: The purpose of this work is to provide a framework for understanding the types of forensic experts engaged in various forms of forensic fraud, their methods and its respective motivations. An original study of 42 fraudulent forensic experts is presented, with a proposed typology. By doing so, it is also hoped that this work will help to define the scope of the problem for those unfamiliar with its landscape and reach. This with an eye towards preventative measures and reforms to be discussed at the conclusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 1Brent E. Turvey, MS is a forensic scientist, criminal profiler, and a full partner of Knowledge Solutions, LLC. He is currently serving as Secretary of the Academy of Behavioral Profiling, and is a member of its Board of Directors. He can be reached for comment, consultation or reprints of this article by contacting: Knowledge Solutions, or his office at 329 Harbor Dr., Suite 211, Sitka, AK; Phone (831) 254-5446; Email: bturvey@corpus-delicti.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Forensic Frauds: A study of 42 Cases Earlier this year, it was determined by the United States Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, that a criminal profiler who has been offering expert forensic services for more than two decades is in fact a fraud and a perjurer. In a rare decision, the court explained that his professional CV and testimony in a 1982 case was rife with both misrepresentations of work experience and blatant fabrications regarding non-existent prior court qualifications as an expert, further describing his opinions as "utter nonsense" (Drake v. Portuondo, 2003). This was the case upon which the expert had built his entire forensic career, and because of his perjury rulings were overturned and justice has been delayed. He is not alone. Giannelli (2001), in an paper dedicated to those forensic experts who falsify their credentials, effortlessly adduces no less than seven such individuals within the past twenty years, arguing: "Unfortunately, these are not isolated cases. In a surprising number of cases experts have misrepresented their credentials." What is more surprising, and disturbing, is that apart from being only one of three general types of fraud that can be committed by a forensic expert, the misrepresentation or falsification of credentials is the least prevalent uncovered by the current study. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Purpose The purpose of this work is to provide a framework for understanding the types of forensic experts engaged in various forms of forensic fraud, their methods and their respective motivations. By doing so, it is also hoped that this work will help to define the scope of the problem for those unfamiliar with its landscape and reach. This with an eye towards preventative measures to be discussed at the conclusion. Credit must be given to the many individual forensic practitioners who have not hesitated to recognize and report instances of forensic fraud within their own experience to courts, supervisors and professional organizations. This is in fact the most common way that such misconduct comes to light. Those with the willingness to illuminate forensic fraud from within often do so at the risk of their own careers, and we owe them a special debt. It was the most reassuring part of this research that such professionals exist and persist, acting with their first loyalty to the integrity of their respective forensic professions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Consequences of Forensic Fraud The defining quality of a forensic expert is the possibility that they will be called upon to present their findings, under penalty of perjury, in a court of law. Subsequently, they will be asked to explain to the court what those findings mean and how they came to them. Those experts whose work does not bring them into court are not forensic in nature. As provided in Thornton (1997, p.3): "The single feature that distinguishes forensic scientists from any other scientist is the certain expectation that they will appear in court and testify to their findings and offer an opinion as to the significance of those findings. The forensic scientist will testify not only to what things are, but to what things mean. Forensic science is science exercised on behalf of the law in the just resolution of conflict." The unique role of the forensic expert is that of educator to attorneys, judges, and juries. The trust extended to them by the court under these circumstances is not trivial. Results of their examinations and any related opinions can greatly influence the outcome of a trial. In civil matters, reputations and fortunes may be lost or won. In criminal matters, nothing less than the life and liberty of the accused is at stake. A convincing forensic expert with favorable findings or opinions can be terribly compelling to a judge or jury, and thus tip the scales for either side. The majority of forensic scientists and other forensic experts take their court responsibilities seriously, and the quality of their work reflects integrity to the evidence. Of course, flaws and fallibility are arguably an integral facet of human nature, and subsequently every human endeavor. They are to be expected, admitted, and addressed. However, the ongoing research of this author continues to uncover a steady stream of forensic experts willing to provide sworn expert testimony or reports to the court that contain deceptive or misleading findings and opinions. Separate from error born of accident and human fallibility, these are instances of forensic fraud [FN1]. As described in Thompson (2000): "In addition to honest mistakes born of incompetence and overwork, there are continuously uncovered examples of fraud: the lab analyst, believing that the verdict justifies the means, willing to lie on the stand or fake test results." Forensic fraud is not a matter to be taken lightly. As discussed in Saks (2001), it is a breach of both professional ethics and the law: "Where a proffered expert knows himself or herself to be a quack or otherwise to be offering false testimony, the situation is like that of any other witness who is perpetrating a fraud on the court. Such acts are illegal as well as unethical." A fraudulent expert of any kind is certainly unreliable, and certainly not to be extended the trust and confidence of the court. Such an expert betrays the trust of their client, the court, and the public. But we must remember that the fraudulent expert is more than just a liar, and more than just unreliable; they are also a criminal. If forensic fraud is suspected and then demonstrated, a number of consequences can result, dependant, sadly, almost entirely on the amount of media attention that ensues: 1. The public and professional trust in the forensic community involved is severely damaged, and negative views reinforced. 2. If employed by a government or private agency, the fraudulent expert may be sanctioned by removal to research or non-forensic investigative duties. They may even be terminated, though this is not always the case. 3. The fraudulent expert's entire case history may be scrutinized for potential errors at the expense of their employer and the court. 4. The fraudulent expert may be criminally prosecuted by the legal community they have defrauded and suffer fines or even jail time. 5. The fraudulent expert or their employer may be exposed to civil liability. 6. Criminal convictions or sentences involving the expert's testimony may be reversed at great expense of time and resources to everyone concerned. 7. The fraudulent expert is typically not able to testify in court once their crime comes to light. However, a few have delayed this consequence by simply moving to a new state or a new agency, running from allegations of misconduct. As described, the consequences of forensic fraud for all concerned are weighty, to say nothing of the potential contributions to wrongful convictions. As a result, those of authority within forensic communities (institutions, agencies and organizations) continue to downplay instances of demonstrable forensic fraud as isolated events rather than a significant problem. Certainly biased towards protecting the forensic professions from criticism, this may not be the most accurate interpretation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Perceiving the Frequency of Fraud According to an informal survey of cases by the Innocence Project ("Junk Science...", 2001): "In twenty-five of the first eighty-two DNA exonerations, scientists and prosecutors presented bad or tainted evidence to the judge or jury. In these cases, it was fortunate that DNA testing could ultimately expose the truth. Examples of junk science include: experts testifying about tests that were never conducted, suppression of evidence and/or exculpatory results of testing, falsified results, falsified credentials, misinterpretation of test results, and statistical exaggeration." Furthermore, their preliminary data showed that: -In 10 cases, forensic experts exaggerated statistics; -In 7 cases, forensic experts falsified results; -In 5 cases, forensic experts lied about credentials; -In 4 cases, forensic experts testified to tests never conducted. As would be expected of a study conducted by those on one side of an adverserial system advocating a particular view, these results have been hotly disputed. Subsequently, the occurrence of forensic fraud is not consistently understood, accepted or received. For the reasons described previously, a discussion of the subject among forensic practitioners almost always involves the argument that the existence of any fraud is an extreme exception to the rule of an otherwise unblemished and objective professional community. In contrast, legal scholars, tend to view the truly objective forensic expert as an exception, as discussed in Barkacs, Browne, & Williamson (2002): "Contrary to the ideal of expert witnesses as nonpartisan assistants who aid the court in its search for truth, many legal scholars contend that expert witnesses are nothing like the ideal, and in fact, are partisan rhetors whose opinions are for sale. Implicit in these legal scholars' critique of the expert witness system is the understanding that experts put forth only one version of the truth." Further still, defense attorneys, who are in a unique and altogether unenviable position to experience forensic fraud directly, view the problem as widespread (Castelle, 1999): "Experienced criminal defense lawyers long ago realized that police perjury haunts courthouses throughout the country. In a similar manner, lawyers with significant experience with forensic science are beginning to realize that fraudulent forensic science may be equally endemic and, with tragic results, may permeate the criminal justice system in every state." And further still (Imwinkelried, 2003): "..there is now solid evidence that erroneous expert testimony is causing a significant number of erroneous convictions. At one time, we might have been able to kid ourselves into thinking that although forensic experts sometimes erred, any errors would be unmasked at trial, and the errors therefore could not cause miscarriages of justice. The forensic analyst might err in the laboratory, but we believed that in the courtroom an astute cross- examiner would expose the error. However, we can no longer entertain that belief in good conscience. That belief was shattered by the U.S. Department of Justice's celebrated 1996 report, Convicted by Juries, Exonerated by Science." In addition, this author has had enough carefully worded conversations with colleagues about squelched and unpublicized instances of forensic fraud to agree that (Castelle, 1999): "...with depressing regularity, respected forensic scientists will concede their own knowledge of instances of "dry-labbing" -- faking of data by former colleagues and employees that they have encountered in their own careers. Because it is safe to assume that most of the forensic science fraud that occurs goes undetected, the amount of fraud that has been revealed bears disturbing implications for any estimate of the amount of fraud that passes without notice." The above paints an extremely disparaging picture of the forensic community. Both of the forensic experts who don't want to concede or address fraud, and of the communities that have all but lost trust in them. The questions that persist are whether or not a disparaging view is an accurate one, and what can be done about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Materials and Method The author selected cases from the public record where forensic experts had provided sworn testimony or reports to the court that contained deceptive or misleading findings, opinions, or conclusions, deliberately offered in order to secure an unfair or unlawful gain. A determination of their fraud was made by their employers, the courts, and in many cases their own admission. Using these criteria, 42 cases with sufficient available data were identified. The earliest cases included in the sample date back to 1981, 1984 and 1987, with the most recent cases occurring this year and still making headlines. Also, a majority of the cases involve multiple incidents of demonstrable and suspected fraud spanning many years. It should further be noted that law enforcement officers who merely planted evidence or committed perjury were not included in this study. That particular sample set could potentially run into the thousands and should be studied separately. Rather, law enforcement officers were only included if they were committing fraud in the course of an expert forensic role. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Results* Total Forensic Experts 42** (29 Males, 13 Females) Government / Police experts 31 Private 11 Private - Prosecution only 3 I. Simulators 17 (12 Males, 5 Females) A. Falsified examinations or test results (dry-labbing) 13 (9 Males, 4 Females) Autopsy exams 3 Drug tests 3 Blood tests 2 DNA tests 2 Fingerprints exams 2 Psychological exams 1 B. Planted or fabricatedevidence 4 (3 Males, 1 Female) Fingerprints 2 Biological material 2 II. Dissemblers 15 (6 Males, 9 Females) Blood evidence 4 Arson / Explosive evidence 3 DNA evidence 3 Hair & Fiber evidence 2 Footwear impressions 1 Lead Bullet analysis 1 Victimology study 1 III. Pseudoexperts 13*** (13 Males, 0 Females) Education 8 Certifications 4 Work experience 4 Affiliations 3 *Number does not reflect the number of times a forensic expert engaged in fraud. **2 forensic experts could be classified as both a simulator and a pseudo- expert; 1 could be classified as both a simulator and a dissembler. ***5 forensic experts misrepresented 2 areas; 1 misrepresented 4 areas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Discussion This study covered a total of 42 cases, including 29 males and 13 females. The greatest majority of forensic experts committing fraud did so while employed in government agencies such as police departments (7 [14%] of 42 total cases) and police crime labs (24 [57%] of 42 total cases). Of those forensic experts working privately (11 [26%] of 42 total cases), 3 worked almost exclusively for the prosecution. This means that in 34 (81%) of 42 total cases, forensic fraud was committed on behalf of the prosecution, and most often by law enforcement crime lab personnel. What this means in a practical sense is that the common inference by attorneys at trial that private forensic experts are inherently unreliable is at best incomplete and perhaps even misleading. If a jury is going to be defrauded by a forensic expert, the hard numbers of this study suggest that it will be an expert employed by the prosecution, most likely the crime lab, that does it. One possible argument to explain this is that perhaps forensic experts in the private sector have less regulation and scrutiny given to their opinions, hence fewer instances of forensic fraud are recognized and counted. On the surface, this sounds plausible; perhaps we just can't see the fraud because the private forensic sector is an unregulated wasteland of pretenders and incompetents where no one watches for misconduct and there's no governing body to report it to. However, this argument doesn't quite survive scrutiny for at least two reasons. First, the work of private forensic experts is commonly reviewed by the very state employed forensic experts that they will be used to rebut in court. If there are problems with the evidence or the quality of evidentiary interpretations, it should come to light through this peer review. Second, the work of private forensic experts is always being reviewed by prosecutors who incidentally have the power to investigate and charge those guilty of forensic fraud with perjury. Given that evidence of forensic fraud would enhance the prosecution's position, and the position of their in-house experts, one would expect eager attention to this possibility on their part. There is perhaps a more simple reason for this finding: the burden of proof. The burden of proof for the defense is not nearly as stringent as the burden of proof for the prosecution. The defense must only create reasonable doubt. In general, the less certainty evident, the better an opinion is for their position (there are, of course, specific instances when this is far from true). The prosecutor, on the other hand, must prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Enhanced quality and certainty become commodities under this burden. Uncertainty becomes less helpful and even problematic. This will be discussed further in the section on Dissemblers. Also of interest is the fact that a variety of forensic disciplines are represented in the current sample. That is to say, the problems aren't just in one field. Fraud occurs in many fields. This is consistent with Giannelli (1997 & 2002), who argues that the problem fraud is systemic: "The abuse of scientific evidence in criminal cases is well documented. Forged fingerprint evidence, fake autopsies, and perjured testimony have all been reported." This would seem to indicate that the cause of fraud is both human and systemic. That is to say, the problem does not appear to be a particular discipline's propensity towards or susceptibility to fraud. It appears to be a bias towards the prosecution, and, to a greater extent, self-interest. [FN2] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Behavior, Cause, & Motive In terms of behavior, the offenders included in the sample could all be placed in to one of three general categories: Simulators, Dissemblers, and Pseudoexperts. In terms of cause and motivation, the offenders included in the sample could all be placed in to one of four categories: Altruistic, Apathetic, Inept, and Egotistic. These categories were developed by the author as a result of this research. Terms will be defined as they are used below. Simulators Simulators are those who physically manipulate physical evidence or related forensic testing. This means that they either fabricate evidence or destroy it for a particular gain. Comprising 17 [41%] of 42 total cases, this was the most prevalent incarnation of forensic fraud. The inept simulator seeks to conceal their own lack of skills, abilities or proficiency, much like a plagiarist that hands in a term paper they did not write. They are aware of their own shortcomings or mistakes, and will fabricate or destroy evidence to keep it a secret. The apathetic simulator is lazy, crunched for time, or strapped for resources. In any case, they are not concerned about the consequences of falsifying results, and may even feel entitled to do so. The less they do, the easier it is for them all around. The egotistic simulator invents results specifically for personal and/or financial gain. They have a reputation for results, and they are going to maintain it at all costs. By doing so, they hope to ensure their use on future cases and in some extreme cases maintain their "celebrity" status amongst colleagues. The altruistic simulator fabricates or destroys evidence to assist the circumstances for someone that they feel will otherwise be denied justice, such as a criminal defendant or a colleague. They feel that fabricating or destroying evidence is sometimes morally right, and therefore necessary. Most commonly (13 [31%] of 42 total cases), simulators would represent that particular forensic tests or examinations had been conducted when in reality they had not (aka - "dry-labbing"). Much less frequently (4 [10%] of 42 total cases), it involved experts who planted physical evidence in a crime scene that they were then able to discover themselves. Consider the following cases: Case #1 John Fitzpatrick, a forensic scientist with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's Orlando Crime Lab, admitted in early 2002 to switching DNA samples and changing data in a test designed to check the quality of work at the lab, according to an internal investigative report. The report details that he altered computer files, re-labeled sample sheets, and made a sample switch so that they would be consistent with his notes. Fitzpatrick was then either fired or dismissed. The FDLE would not confirm which. This forensic expert is best characterized as an inept simulator who was trying to conceal inconsistencies between his notes and his final reports. Case #2 Jack R. Patterson was a Fingerprint Examiner with the Wisconsin State Police Crime Lab. In 2001, he was charged with skipping dye/ laser and immersion tests on items of evidence, and then claiming in his reports that he had conducted those tests. According to Doedge (2001): "A former State Crime Laboratory analyst accused of performing cursory exams of evidence for fingerprints and then lying on reports claiming he performed sophisticated tests was charged Wednesday with three counts of misconduct in office. Jack R. Patterson, who spent 25 years on the Milwaukee Police Department looking for fingerprints before doing the same job for five years at the crime laboratory, cut corners at the lab for up to three years before he was discovered, according to a criminal complaint. After privately concluding that the extra steps were a "wasted" effort unlikely to reveal prints undetected during basic analysis, Patterson pretended that he had done thorough examinations because he knew his boss would make him do so if his boss found out that tests were being skipped, the complaint says." This forensic expert is best characterized as an apathetic simulator who believed that he knew whether and when to test the evidence despite established protocols. He then went on to conceal what he knew to be his lack of thoroughness and proficiency, which could qualify him as an inept simulator. Case #3 David Harding, Supervisor in the Troop C Forensic Unit, New York State Troopers confessed to planting fingerprint evidence in numerous cases to secure convictions when applying for a job with the CIA. He further admitted to burning physical evidence in order to protect fellow police officers from a potential wrongful shooting investigation. According to O'Brien (2002): "The fingerprint-planting scandal unraveled in January 1991, when Harding was interviewed for a job at the CIA. He admitted planting fingerprints in one case. The CIA turned that information over to the FBI by March 1991. But it took the FBI until May 1992 to pass the information to state police, according to Kinge's lawsuit and to the special prosecutor who investigated the evidence-tampering. If it hadn't been for that delay, Kinge would have been freed from jail 14 months earlier, her lawsuit said. Justice Department officials in Washington, D.C., have said a department employee failed to immediately alert anyone to the Harding information because he didn't think it was urgent. That employee resigned from the Justice Department soon afterward." This forensic expert is best characterized as an altruistic simulator who believed that he was helping secure convictions against guilty defendants while also helping fellow police officers. Dissemblers Dissemblers are those forensic experts who exaggerate, embellish, lie about, or otherwise misrepresent their actual findings. Dissemblers exist on a continuum from those who lie outright about the significance of their findings to those who simply present a biased or incomplete view. As discussed in Saks (2001): "A more ambiguous version of this [forensic fraud] is the proffered expert who comes from a field that has valid knowledge and is capable of doing sound work, but in the case at bar the expert has failed to perform according to the expected standards ("with the same intellectual rigor," as some courts and commentators have put it) and that looseness has produced less reliable results (which presumably leads to conclusions that tilt the testimony further in the direction of the proponent's preferred position)." Comprising 15 [36%] of 42 total cases, dissemblers run a close second to the number of simulators found in this sample. The inept dissembler seeks to explain their mistakes, misinterpretations, and things that they do not understand by inventing sometimes bizarre explanations for facts which contradict their opinions and conclusions. The apathetic dissembler is, like the simulator counterpart above, lazy, crunched for time, or strapped for resources. As previously described, they are not concerned about the consequences of misrepresenting their findings for the gain of an employer, and may even feel right in doing so. The egotistic simulator misrepresents or tailors their findings or denies error specifically for personal and/ or financial gain. Like their simulator counterpart, they have a reputation for results, and they are going to maintain it as best the can. By doing so, they hope to ensure their use on future cases and in some extreme cases maintain their "celebrity" status amongst colleagues. The altruistic dissembler fabricates or tailors their findings to assist the circumstances for someone that they feel will otherwise be denied justice, such as a criminal defendant or a colleague. They feel that biased testimony is sometimes morally right, and therefore necessary. Of particular note is the fact that the majority of the females in this study fall into this sub-type (9 [ 69%] of 13 total women). It is also the only sub-type in which females are a majority (9 [60%] of 15 total dissemblers). Blood evidence was most commonly misrepresented (4 [27%] of 15 total dissemblers), with arson & explosives evidence and DNA Evidence following close behind with 3 (20%) dissembler cases each. Consider the following cases: Case #4 Concepcion Bacasnot, a forensic chemist with the Baltimore State Police Crime Lab, gave intentionally false testimony about blood type evidence in at least one case during the 80s. According to Hanes (2003): ""Ms. Bacasnot's false testimony in this case is clearly designed to bootstrap the State's case theory," [Forensic Scientist Ed Blake] wrote. "Such false testimony in this case can not be expected to be isolated. Rather, it reflects a fundamental lack of candor and integrity that can only result from systemic tolerance or systemic encouragement." At issue is Bacasnot's testimony about the attacker's blood type. On the stand, the chemist contradicted her written report, saying it was a typographical error when she wrote that the rapist had type AB blood. She said the attacker must have had type A blood - which Webster has. More importantly, said Morrison, when Bacasnot was asked whether the attacker could have been type AB, she replied, "No." "This statement is simply false," Morrison said. Given the test Bacasnot used, she said, a man with an AB blood type was as capable as being part of the mix as a man with type A blood. "That this scientific fact is the case is known by every competent and honest forensic scientist," Blake wrote in his letter. She also acknowledged under oath that she did not understand the science behind some of the forensic tests that she performed. According to reports ("Former Baltimore...", 2003): Just before leaving the job in 1987, public defender Nancy Cohen grilled Bacasnot for hours at a pretrial hearing in another rape case, prompting the chemist to admit she did not understand the science behind many of the tests and had failed to note the results of some testing steps needed to ensure accuracy in blood typing, according to court transcripts. "Your entire report in this case, your entire analysis is absolutely worthless, isn't that right?" Cohen asked. "It is what you said, yes," Bacasnot responded. Prosecutors chose not to call Bacasnot as a witness when the case went to trial." This forensic expert is best characterized as an inept dissembler, given that she admits her lack of knowledge, tailored her opinions, and was evidently caught trying to cover up her mistakes by offering opinions outside the realm of acceptable science. As a result of her fraud, Baltimore County police are reviewing 480 cases that she worked on during her years there. Case #5 Dr. John Brown, a DNA analyst with the Washington State Patrol Crime Lab admitted on the stand that he had lied to defense attorneys about whether his first DNA examination in a rape case excluded a defendant. According to reports (Fryer, 2000): "One of the state's most senior DNA experts resigned from the Washington State Patrol Crime Laboratory before an internal investigation into whether he mishandled evidence in a rape case had been completed. Dr. John Brown resigned Sept. 13, [in 2000] roughly four months after he was suspended from the crime lab. ... He had examined biological evidence recovered from a South Seattle home following the rape of a 25-year-old woman March 26, 1997. His first tests in November 1997 showed no matches with convicted felons in the DNA databank. After a colleague reviewed his work and said it was flawed, Brown retested the samples and found a match with Craig Barfield. On May 31, Barfield became the first person in Washington convicted by a jury on the basis of his genetic profile alone. It was Barfield's third felony, which comes with a mandatory life sentence under the state's "three strikes" law. Brown initially told defense attorneys there had been no earlier report in which Barfield had been eliminated. He later said his earlier tests had not included Barfield. On the witness stand, Brown admitted he had lied about the earlier report to cover up his mistake." This forensic expert is best characterized as an inept dissembler, given that he offered a blatant lie only to conceal his own errors. Had he simply admitted his errors, which do not appear to have been malicious, it is not likely that he would have had to resign. Contrary to good science, at the time of Dr. Brown's resignation the crime lab had no plans to review any of his other cases for errors. Case #6 Pamela A. Fish, PhD, was a Biochemistry Section Chief at the Illinois State Police Lab. She reportedly gave false testimony in nine cases, including trials that resulted in wrongful rape convictions. In one case, she conducted blood tests on semen recovered from a rape victim and determined defendant was excluded as the source, according to her lab notes. However, she prepared a report saying her tests were inconclusive and testified similarly at the defendant's trial. She was subsequently transferred to a research position. According to reports (Mills, 2001): "The Illinois State Police crime lab analyst whose testimony has figured in three wrongful convictions and other cases now under review was transferred Wednesday to a post where she will not be involved in criminal casework. Pamela Fish, who was chief of the biochemistry section for the state police at its Chicago lab, was made the administrative section chief of research and development, said state police spokesman Dave Sanders. The transfer was a lateral move that Sanders said was linked to retirements in the division and additional funding the lab has received recently. "It is not unusual for us to make transfers. . . . This is routine," he said." Dr. Fish's fraud was uncovered by an independent review of her work by private forensic scientists whose reports focus on (Mills & Possley, 2001): "...blood tests on evidence conducted by Pamela Fish when she worked in the Chicago police crime laboratory and before the advent of DNA testing. In 1996, the Illinois State Police took over testing duties for city police, and most of the Chicago crime lab workers transferred to the state crime lab. About two years ago, Fish was promoted to a $75,900-a-year job as chief of the lab's biochemistry section. The analysis of the cases of the nine defendants showed that "in many of these cases, Ms. Fish misrepresent(ed) the scientific significance of her findings either directly or by omission," according to the report by DNA analyst Dr. Edward Blake and criminalist Alan Keel of Forensic Science Associates of Richmond, Calif. "The nature of these errors are such that a reasonable investigator, attorney or fact finder would be misled," the report states. "And always," the report adds, "she offered the opinion most damaging to the defendant."" This forensic expert is may best be characterized as an altruistic dissembler, given that she tailored her testimony in favor of the prosecution in multiple cases, and contradicted her own lab notes, in order to secure convictions. It is also possible that she may be an egotistic dissembler, attempting enhance her personal forensic expert cache. Rather than being sanctioned, she was actually promoted, transferred and protected by her superiors. Case #7 Kathleen Lundy, was a forensic scientist at the FBI crime lab. In 2002, she admitted to perjury related to the certainty of lead bullet mettalurgical analysis that she had performed. She plead stress (Taylor, 2002): "An FBI scientist's admission that she lied during a hearing in the murder case against Shane Ragland has prompted one of the agency's attorneys to suggest the expert's testimony in as many as 80 other cases nationwide be reviewed. ... Laura Blumenfeld, an FBI attorney, described Lundy's lie as "an enormous red flag" and told the chief of the FBI laboratory's chemistry unit that the matter was extremely serious and suggested that her "previous testimonies be reviewed," according to the memos filed yesterday. By her own estimation, Lundy has testified in 80 trials nationwide since 1995. ... Lundy, suspended from courtroom and FBI case work after she revealed her lie in April, is one of two scientists who do comparative bullet-lead analysis for the agency. The tests, designed to show whether bullets came from the same batch of manufacturing lead, are controversial and dismissed by some experts as unproven and invalid. In Ragland's case, Lundy testified that tests suggested that the bullet removed from DiGiuro's head came from the same batch as bullets found at Ragland's house. Tests' validity disputed A defense witness, former FBI chief metallurgist William Tobin, testified that the tests were meaningless. The lie Lundy says she told was at a pretrial hearing when Ragland was trying to get the bullet-lead tests thrown out. There, Lundy said that bullet manufacturer Winchester had remelted all of the lead it received until 1996 -- two years after DiGiuro was murdered. In fact, Winchester stopped remelting lead in 1986. The importance of the date difference to the Ragland case is unclear. "I cannot explain why I made the original error ... nor why, knowing that the testimony was false, I failed to correct it at the time," Lundy wrote in a May 28 internal FBI memo. "... I was stressed out by this case and work in general. I had been under a great deal of professional pressure for over a year and had considered resigning." "This pressure was increased by new and repeated challenges to the validity of the science associated with bullet-lead comparison analysis. These challenges affected me a great deal, perhaps more than they should have. I also felt that there was ineffective support from the FBI to meet the challenges."" In June of 2003, Ms. Lundy plead guilty to perjury, recieved a 90 day suspended jail sentence, and a fine of $250. This forensic expert is best characterized as an inept dissembler, given that she admits lying to conceal her own mistakes and evidences clear ignorance of just how much weight should be given lead-bullet metallurgical analysis. Pseudoexperts Pseudoexperts are those who fabricate or misrepresent expert credentials. This is without question the easiest form of forensic fraud to check and to substantiate. Comprising 13 [31%] of 42 total cases, pseudoexperts are the least common in this sample, none of whom were female. The most commonly fabricated or misrepresented expert credentials were college diplomas (8 [62%] of 13 total pseudoexpert cases) followed in a distant second by certifications and work experience, with 4 (31%) of 13 total pseudoexperts each. The reason for this is perhaps no great mystery. Firstly, it is easier to qualify as an expert with related college education, certifications, or work experience. Secondly, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, college graduates earn 62 percent more than non-graduates (Colker, 2002). So you will make more money as a forensic expert with the right education, certifications, and experience. Of note, 9 [69%] of 13 total pseudoexpert cases involved private experts. This likely reflects the fact that government agencies do provide a more rigorous screening process for employees than those who are recruited from the private sector are likely endure. However, this has not made them immune to pseudoexperts. Also, it is not merely the uneducated who falsify credentials. There are frauds and then there are total frauds. A number of pseudoexperts in this study had legitimate qualifications without the fraud, just not always in the field they wished. All of the pseudoexperts in the sample are best described as egotistic, fabricating or exaggerating credentials specifically for personal and/or financial gain. By doing so, they hoped to ensure their use on future cases, seeking and enjoying the "quasi-celebrity" status that being an expert can hold for some. Pseudoexperts are essentially wannabes who lack the acumen or patience to become true experts in their professed area of expertise. Many of them last for years undetected. Consider the following examples: Case #8 Dr. Faidherbe Ceus, Director of Emergency Services in the Psychiatric Unit of the Westchester Medical Center, New York. He testified falsely that he was board-certified in psychiatry. According to the State Office of Medical Misconduct, he "lacks moral fitness expected of a member of the profession." (Lerner, 2003) In 2003, he plead guilty to perjury, lost his medical license, received nine months in prison with two years supervised release, and was fined $2,000. Case #9 Ira S. Dubey, Deputy Director of the Suffolk County Crime Lab, plead guilty to perjury, admitting that he lied about his credentials in 21 cases. According to reports (Maier & Quittner, 1987): "DuBey agreed to resign from 10 professional clubs and societies, including the American Society of Forensic Sciences, which had begun its own investigation of the allegations, and he agreed to mail transcripts of yesterday's court proceedings to seven of the clubs. According to court transcripts, DuBey said he had a bachelor's degree in biology from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and a master's degree in forensic science from the City University of New York. In reality, DuBey had completed the coursework for a master's degree from John Jay College of Criminal Justice but had never completed his thesis, and he took his undergraduate degree at the C.W. Post Campus of Long Island University. DuBey, 35, who now lives in Baltimore, was second-in-command of the crime lab until 1985, when he quit to accept a job as director of the Maryland state crime lab. He resigned under fire from his post last month after a review by the office of the Maryland state police chief. Officials there said his resignation was prompted by reports that he misstated his credentials in Suffolk trials and because the police chief was unhappy with DuBey's management of the Maryland lab. In a series of articles last December, Newsday also reported that two top Suffolk prosecutors were warned in late 1983 about questions concerning DuBey's credentials but did not disclose the information to District Attorney Patrick Henry. Following the report, Henry asked State Supreme Court Justice Thomas Stark, presiding judge of the Suffolk criminal courts, to appoint a special prosecutor. Stark later appointed Lundberg, a former judge." Case #10 Howard Bruce Ollick was acting the part of a forensic toxicologist in private practice. He was eventually found out by an opposing counsel researching his resume. He was tried and found guilty of forging his credentials and falsifying his education. He was sentenced to prison for 3 years. According to reports (Fitzgerald, 1998): "Ollick has been under investigation since January, when homicide prosecutor Tony Loe did a routine check of Ollick's credentials. Ollick was listed as an expert witness in Chambliss' murder case, which Loe was prosecuting. Loe noticed a discrepancy between two of Ollick's resumes. In one, Ollick wrote he had a bachelor of science degree from the school of education at Ohio State University; in the other, it was a bachelor of arts from the school of business administration at Ohio State. Loe also had a copy of Ollick's Florida Atlantic University master's degree dated 1971. It was signed by, among others, "Lawton Chiles, Governor." Chiles was a senator in 1971. Ollick also claimed he had earned a doctorate in organic chemistry from FAU in 1973, but the university does not offer that degree. In fact, FAU's registrar found no record of his attending the university or receiving a degree there. Ollick did attend Ohio State University's College of Continuing Education from June 1966 through September 1966, but he received no degree, according to the registrar's office there. Ollick's attorney, Robert Ullman, said defense attorneys have been hiring his client since 1994. He has testified in hundreds of cases, Ullman said." On the subject of motive, Mr. Ollick plead dysfunction (Fitzgerald, 1998): ""He did this out of stupidity borne from a dysfunctional family," Ollick's defense attorney, Robert Ullman, told Weinstein before the sentencing. "He didn't do it for pecuniary gain." ... Ullman presented a mental health expert who said Ollick suffers from low self-esteem because his mother repeatedly told him he was slow and would never amount to much. As a result, Ollick felt the need to embellish his educational achievement. "I can't tell you how sorry I am," Ollick said. "I had absolutely no idea. ... I got caught up in it. I just wanted to be noticed." Ollick, 51, of Weston, claimed on his resume that he is a forensic toxicologist with a doctorate in organic chemistry. In reality, he was a laboratory technician licensed by the Florida Department of Health, state records show. He was fired from his job and now works in a bagel shop for $7 an hour." Innocence Project Data In comparing the data of the current study with that provided by the Innocence Project ("Junk Science...", 2001), it becomes clear that there is good agreement with the comparable data. Of 26 total instances of forensic fraud, all of them could be classified using the typology suggested in the current study (simulators, dissemblers, and pseudoexperts). Furthermore, they provide that there were 11 (42%) simulators (those who falsified test results or gave testimony about the results of tests that were never conducted), 10 (39%) dissemblers (those who exaggerated forensic statistics), and 5 (19%) pseudoexoperts (those who lied about their credentials). In the current study, the ranking was the same, with similar frequency; 17 (40%) of 42 forensic frauds were simulators, 15 (36%) of 42 forensic frauds were dissemblers, and 13 (31%) of 42 forensic frauds were pseudoexperts (with three of the experts falling in two categories). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Problems & Reforms The results of this study support the argument that there are a number of problems with the current forensic environment that continually contribute to the frequency of forensic fraud. They include a pro-prosecution bias, lack of education or competency in the forensic sciences, and to a lesser extent the desire to achieve forensic celebrity [FN3]. The following discussion is offered with a cautionary from Imwinkelried (2003), who writes: "The soundest--and the most challenging--approach is to devise reforms that improve the caliber of the expert testimony admitted without setting the admissibility hurdle too high." Bias As already discussed, the results of this study support the argument that the greatest contributing cause to forensic fraud is a pro-prosecution bias on the part of the forensic expert, who more often than not works for the state in a police crime lab. This is consistent with other findings. According to Giannelli (1997), regarding his research on the abuse of scientific evidence: "Too many experts in the criminal justice system manifest a police-prosecution bias, a willingness to shade or distort opinions to support the state's case. Similarly, too many prosecutors seek out such experts. ... Most of the cases discussed in this Essay illustrate the problem of "pro-prosecution" experts. At different times, Professors Joseph Peterson, [FN177] James E. Starrs, [FN178] and Andre A. Moenssens have noted this problem. The issue has also surfaced in Britain and Australia. [FN180] As one commentator has noted, "Many reformers in the United Kingdom believe that a large percentage of the problems that have arisen in the forensic science context are attributable to the fact that English forensic science is almost solely the province of the state." [FN181] Considering the professional relationship between crime labs and police departments, pro-prosecution bias in forensic science is not surprising. In fact, seventy-nine percent of the labs are governed by the police, [FN182] and most examine only evidence submitted by the prosecution team. [FN183] In short, "forensic scientists who run with the hounds cannot be expected to give a savaged fox the kiss of life." [FN184]" The most reasonable step towards solving the poblem of pro-prosecution bias from crime lab personnel, which does account for a majority of the fraud in the sample, is complete independance of crime labs and forensic scientists from law enforcement. This suggestion tends to infuriate police scientists. Such a response is further evidence of just how entrenched police scientists are in their respective law enforcement role. A truly impartial forensic scientist should actually prefer the objective, non-political environment that is better provided by a private lab separated from either side of the adverserial process by location and governance. They should not prefer to be under the direction or control of a law enforcement officer, a prosecutor's office, or subordinates of either. At the same time, an objective police investigator should want the most impartial analysis of the evidence that is available. An argument against total privatization is the notion that law enforcement would account for the majority of a private forensic lab's clientelle, and they may only use forensic labs that give them the results that they want. Subsequently, labs willing to bend their results in the favor of law enforcement would thrive and others would not. Apart from showing limited faith in law enforcement, this argument represents a concern that can be addressed through additional reforms as opposed to a reason for maintaining crime labs within law enforcement agencies. Reforms that can include mandatory testing of certain kinds of evidence, lab accreditation, forensic analyst certification, and the tracking of forensic testimony by watchgroups to expose bias. Under a regulated but privatized scheme, increased competition can streamline and enhance the capabilities and quality of forensic science through competition, which is the consumer-oriented advantage of a market economy. In any case, models of crime lab indepence from law enforcement can be developed that address the problems. It is admitting that pro-prosecution bias currently exists which blocks reform. After much consideration, this author is currently in agreement with the suggestions of the Innocence Project regarding privatization, which offer that ("Junk Science...", 2001): "Forensics experts and crime laboratory directors should formally agree that crime laboratories should act as independent entities within the criminal justice system. They would, thereby, be released from pressure from the prosecution and defense. These laboratories should be staffed by professionals who can present data objectively, without regard for either the prosecution or defense. Crime laboratory budgets should not be linked, in any way, to the fiduciary process of any police agency. Police agencies should not be allowed to exercise supervisory responsibility of the crime laboratory or its employees. Complete discovery of all data from forensic tests should be provided in all criminal cases to all parties involved. Reports should include explanations of the testing involved, not just the results of said procedure. All potentially exculpatory inferences drawn from any testing should also be disclosed." This is not too much to ask, and would go a long way to reducing a large amount of the bias evident in this study. Rather than being part of the police and prosecution team, eager to please those on a particular side of the courtroom and "get the bad guys", the forensic scientist would simply be asked by either side to perform forensic tests and examinations, then explain the results in an impartial fashion. Certainly other personal bias could infect the expert, but this is a sure way to eliminate a demonstrably pernicious source. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Pictured [police bages of various crime labs]: Some police crime lab and forensic personnel are sworn officers, and some are unsworn civilians. In a some jurisdictions, crime labs and forensic units have police badges or shields, further cementing their law enforcement association. This is true of medical exmainers and coroners as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Lack of Education & Competency Thornton (1974, pp.v-vi) respectfully suggests that competency is a reasonable expectation of every forensic expert: "When the liberty of an individual may depend in part on physical evidence, it is not unreasonable to ask that the expert witnesses who are called upon to testify, either against the defendant or in his behalf, know what they are doing." Giannelli (1997), along with others, disagrees that competency is currently demanded within the forensic community. Rather it is voluntary: "Unlike the typical clinical laboratory, [FN201] the nation's crime laboratories are exempt from regulation and external review. As molecular biologist Eric Lander has noted, "At present, forensic science is virtually unregulated--with the paradoxical result that clinical laboratories must meet higher standards to be allowed to diagnose strep throat than forensic labs must meet to put a defendant on death row." [FN202] However, this is changing; a significant, albeit voluntary, program conducted by the Laboratory Accreditation Board of the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors is functioning." Evidence to support this concern is not difficult to find. First, there are the pseudoexperts in the study who by their nature do not have the requisite education and training to be working in a forensic capacity and testifying in court. If they did, they would not need to fabricate their credentials. A firm policy of checking resumes anywhere along the line would have eliminated 1/3 of the forensic fraud in this study. Second, there are the demonstrably low education and training requirements demanded by many labs throughout the country. For example, according to findings related to the still embattled Houston Police Department Crime Lab (Khanna & McVicker, 2003): "The audit team questioned the qualifications of four of the lab's analysts and the continuing education for all employees. The team could not find transcripts to determine if two had received undergraduate degrees or if two other examiners had studied biochemistry, genetics and molecular biology. All analysts had not attended at least one training session on a matter related to their work in the last year, the audit shows. The lab does not "maintain records on the relevant qualifications, training skills and experience of all technical personnel," the audit concluded." An additonal problem cited by some lab directors as a contributor in this area is a lack of qualified, available candidates willing to work for state wages. There simply are not that many accredited forensic science degree programs, and labs that do require a four year degree or higher may still prefer someone with a biology or chemistry degree. Though an excellent and necessary foundation for a criminalist, a biology and chemistry background is not inherently a forensic science background. Interestingly, none of the forensic experts in the current study appear to have had graduate or undergraduate degrees in forensic science, though a number did have advanced degrees in the hard sciences. Rather, they most often learned on the job how to apply the science and educational background they had (if any) to forensic casework. This can lead to all manner of problems, especially when it comes to understanding the reasons and a basis for forensic testing, and interpreting the results of forensic testing in an accurate and unbiased fashion. Basic forensic science issues that appear foreign to many experts encountered by this author include the definition and application of the scientific method, the importance of hypothesis testing and falsification, and the difference between indentification and individuation. Kirk (1974, p.15), refers to this last issue as "the problem of identity": In the examination and interpretation of physical evidence, the distinction between identification and individuation must always be clearly made, to facilitate the real purpose of the criminalist: to determine the identity of source. That is, two items of evidence, one known and the other unknown, must be identified as having a common origin. On the witness stand, the criminalist must be willing to admit that absolute identity is impossible to establish. Identity of source, on the other hand, often may be established unequivocally, and no witness who has established it need ever back down in the face of cross-examination. It is precisely here that the greatest caution must be exercised. The inept or biased witness may readily testify to an identity, or to a type of identity, that does not actually exist. This can come about because of his confusion as to the nature of identity, his inability to evaluate the results of his observations, or because his general technical deficiencies preclude meaningful results. There are at least two potential sources of forensic fraud related to education, apart from fabrications by the pseudoexpert. The first is error which is then concealed by fraud. The second is dissembling which occurs under percieved pressure. Unless surounded by frauds and incompetents, the inept or biased forensic expert may be required to engage in fraud to conceal their inptitude and bias in order to avoid harsh sanctions that can include dismissal or even jail time. Put another way, lack of proper education and training can create an environment of error where fraud may be considered as an option to conceal it. Additionally, the impartial but inexperienced forensic expert may feel pressure, real or percieved, to perform from colleagues, superiors, the prosecution, and / or law enforcement. Lacking adequate training in the forensic sciences, they may lack confidence in their methodology or be just confused enough about how to interpret particular results to exaggerate them or rationalize some biased interpretation. Once this has happened, there is almost no going back; even if they later wish to remedy their errors (intentional or otherwise), the consequences can be enourmous. Even basic education and training in the forensic sciences, and the acceptible limits of forensic testimony, would work to alleviate these sources of fraud. It would also give unbiased and inexperienced forensic examiners the knowledge, skills, and confidence to maintain their integrity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Conclusion Forensic fraud is not confined to one discipline or to one region. The data presented in this paper suggest that forensic fraud is more pervasive and more widespread than some in the forensic community would care to admit, and support the finding that it is very often systemic. This by illuminating pro-prosecution bias as a common feature in the majority of the cases studied. Certain reforms are also supported by the results of this study, namely the separation of crime labs from law enforcement and the prosecution, and the development of mandatory forensic science education standards. To say nothing of mandatory resume checking by everyone who gets handed a an expert CV, to weed out the pseudoexperts. The author finds the results of the current study hopeful for three reasons. First, the problem is not too complex to study or grasp. Second, this is made clear by the existence of legitimate, objective forensic experts, able and willing to illuminate occurances of forensic fraud even when it is against their own interests. And finally, the problem of forensic fraud is solveable; there are clear reforms that can make an appreciable dent in the undeniable volume of forensic fraud that we continue to experience.[FN4] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Footnotes [FN1] The 42 forensic experts with which this typology has been framed are almost all profiled as part of the author's ongoing research, publicly archived online at "FORENSIC FRAUD" - http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html. Three additional cases are taken from Giannelli (2001). [FN2] Fraud is not the same thing as error. Fallibility and mistakes are common and do result in injustice and are a problem. However, such occurences should be studied separate from the criminal matter of fraud, which is by its nature intentional as opposed to accidental. [FN3] With the ongoing glamorization of almost every forensic discipline by the media, and their voracious apetites for publicizing dramatized (even fictionalized) case accounts, we should not be suprised to see that number increase in the coming years. [FN4] What this author finds disheartening, however, are the variable consequences for forensic fraud, and the willingness of some agencies to reward it with promotion, to conceal it with closed internal investigations, or to dismiss those guilty without legal penalty (or allow them to resign). Without certain and consistent legal consequences, any deterrant effect cannot be relied upon to stem the tide of forensic fraud. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- References Barkacs, L., Browne, M. & Williamson, C. "The Perspectival Nature of Expert Testimony in the United States, England, Korea, and France," Connecticut Journal of International Law, Fall, 2002 Castelle, G. "Lab Fraud: Lessons Learned from the 'Fred Zain Affair'," Champion, May 1999 Colker, D. "Diplomas for dollars," Los Angeles Times, November 12, 2002 Doege, D. "Former analyst at crime lab is charged," Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, October 10, 2001 Drake v. Portuondo, Docket No. 01-2217, 321 F.3d 338, January 31, 2003 Fitzgerald, F. "WITNESS FACES CHARGES OF LYING: OFFICIALS UNCOVER FALSE CREDENTIALS ," Sun-Sentinel, March 5, 1998 Fitzgerald, F. "PHONY 'EXPERT' JAILED FOR 3 YEARS ," Sun-Sentinel, December 1, 1998 "Former Baltimore County Police Chemist Comes Under More Fire," InsideBaltimore.com, March 19, 2003 Fryer, A. "State DNA expert quits while probe continues," Seattle Times, September 30, 2000 Giannelli, P. "The Abuse Of Scientific Evidence In Criminal Cases: The Need For Independent Crime Laboratories," Virginia Journal of Social Policy and the Law, Winter 1997 Giannelli, P. "False Credentials," Criminal Justice, Fall, 2001 Giannelli, P. "Scientific Evidence & Miscarriages of Justice," International Society for the Reform of Criminal Law, December 8, 2002 Hanes, S. "Ex-crime lab chemist's work questioned," Baltimore Sun, February 22, 2003 Imwinkelried, E. "Flawed Expert Testimony: Striking the Right Balance in Admissibility," Criminal Justice, Spring, 2003 "Junk Science," The Innocence Project website at http://www.innocenceproject.org/causes/junkscience.php, 2001 Khanna, R. & McVicker, S. "House hearings on HPD crime lab to focus on audit," Houston Chronicle, March 15, 2003 Kirk, P. (1974), Crime Investigation, New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Lerner, J. "Nanuet doctor loses medical license," The Journal News, June 19, 2003 Maier, T. & Quittner, J. "Crime 'Expert' Admits Lying on Credentials Felony convictions endangered ," Newsday, April 15, 1987 Mills, S. & Possley, M. "Report alleges crime lab fraud - Scientist is accused of providing false testimony," Chicago Tribune, January 14, 2001 O'Brien, J. "Kinge seeks $1M from ex-lawyer: She says he should have sued FBI, three troopers, Tompkins County over faked evidence," The Post-Standard, February 28, 2002 Saks, M. "Scientific Evidence and the Ethical Obligations of Attorneys," Cleveland State Law Review , 2001 Taylor, L. "RAGLAND CASE LIE SPARKS CALL FOR FBI REVIEW; EXPERT ADMITTED TO PERJURY ABOUT BULLET-LEAD TESTS," Lexington Herald-Leader, July 20, 2002 Thompson, C. "Crime bomb: Police crime labs are churning out tainted evidence - and nobody's doing anything about it." SFBG.com, November 22, 2000 Thornton, J. I. (1997) "The General Assumptions And Rationale Of Forensic Identification," for Faigman, D., Kaye, D., Saks, M. & Sanders, J. (Eds) Modern Scientific Evidence: The Law And Science Of Expert Testimony, Volume 2, St. Paul, MN: West Publishing Co. Thornton, J. I. (Ed.) in Kirk, P. (1974), Crime Investigation, New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:25:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLPMqd012502 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5A866AA333A83A4BBA4BBF73727EEA8501BACB2C@doaisd03001.state.mt.us> From: "Ammen, Alice" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:25:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Hi Gretchen, 1) I report the specific fiber sub-type if identified. Whether or not I do a full-blown id/comparison depends upon the case and the other types of forensic results obtained. I may do a full id/comparison even if the known fibers are debris fibers rather than fibers from a known fibrous source. 2) No, I don't continue analysis through to identification with fibers that I haven't determined to be significant. That doesn't necessarily mean that those other fibers are insignificant. It's just that you have to start somewhere by focusing on a particular target fiber. Alice Ammen Montana Forensic Science Division 2679 Palmer Street Missoula, MT 59808 P: 406-329-1154 -----Original Message----- From: Christopher J. Basten [mailto:cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:13 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Hicks, Gretchen D" To: "Forens-l (E-mail)" Subject: Fiber analysis Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:05:44 -0400 For those laboratories that conduct fiber analysis: 1 - Do you report the fiber types that you identify in casework and how specifically (ie - Nylon or Nylon 6,6)? 2 - If you report, do you continue your analysis through to identification even with fibers that you determine to be insignificant? Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Gretchen D. Hicks Forensic Chemist II Maine State Police Crime Laboratory 26 Hospital St. Augusta, ME 04333 P: 207-624-7028 F: 207-624-7123 [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Ammen, Alice" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:30:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLU3Rq012931 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030825194428.71155.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Cathy OReilly Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2003 19:46:26.0375 (UTC) FILETIME=[920B0D70:01C36B41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:31:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLVBmv013148 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030825194428.71155.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Cathy OReilly Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2003 19:46:30.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[944741D0:01C36B41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:32:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLWot1013452 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:32:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030825194428.71155.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2003 19:56:31.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAA448F0:01C36B42] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cathy; I get that same email 5x a day. I do my best, but I can't respond to everyone. Sorry you got left out, but I'm not sure that I agree that it is my duty to respond to every email sent by a teacher. I try, but to expect it is a little much. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Cathy OReilly Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:44 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:32:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLWxNJ013534 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:32:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030825194428.71155.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2003 19:56:26.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7E9BCD0:01C36B42] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cathy; I get that same email 5x a day. I do my best, but I can't respond to everyone. Sorry you got left out, but I'm not sure that I agree that it is my duty to respond to every email sent by a teacher. I try, but to expect it is a little much. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Cathy OReilly Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:44 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 17:41:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PLf3Yf014325 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:41:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:41:00 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <169.2309d1d2.2c7bd273@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu David; I think that my education might give it away; MS = Master's of Science in Forensic Science. That and my history of casework, testimony, and published works. Though not a criminalist, I am trained as a generalist. Before anyone cries foul and pretends that this is a word that I just made up (which prosecutors love to do), see: Gaensslen, Lee & Deforest (1983) "Forensic Science: An Introduction to Criminalistics", McGraw Hill (p.17) "Because of the depth and complexity of criminalistics, the need for sepcialists in inescapable. There can be serious problems, however, with overspecialization. Persons who have a working knowledge of a broad range of criminalistics problems and techniques are also necessary. These people are called generalists. The value of generalists lies in their ability to look at all of the aspects of a complex case and decide what needs to be done, whic specialists should be involved, and in which order to carry out the required examinations." This concept seems to be conveniently absent from the newest works on forensic science. That's going to lead to more overspecialization and more problems, in my view. Also, there is a relationship between criminal investigation, forensic science, crime reconstuction, and criminal profiling that has been clearly drawn by those who've written on the subject like Hans Gross, Paul Kirk, and most recently Henry Lee. That and other texts over the years such as: O'Connell, J. & Soderman, H. (1936) Modern Criminal Investigation, New York: Funk & Wagnalls, Co. & Svensson, A. & Wendel, O. (1965) Crime Scene Investigation, 2nd Ed., New York: American Elsevier Publishing Co., Inc Hope this helps, Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of LeonStein@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:58 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey In a message dated 8/25/2003 3:46:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, coreilly2003@yahoo.com writes: I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to such a request, unless you are teaching profiling. David --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LeonStein@aol.com] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Mon Aug 25 18:10:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7PMAdbt015150 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:10:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [64.166.85.170] X-Originating-Email: [sojen1@hotmail.com] From: "Stephen Ojena" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] camera Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:38:02 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2003 21:38:03.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[29B1FF80:01C36B51] Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I believe I saw a similar product made by Polaroid. As I recall you get a digital image and you can print it on Polaroid film if you wish. Picture quality was only fair. Steve Ojena Martinez, CA >From: "Bob Kegel" >Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >To: >Subject: Re: [forens] camera >Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:22:49 -0700 > >On Monday, August 25, 2003, 12:02 PM, Bradley Brown wrote: > > > > > A few years back, I remember seeing an ad for a camera which took both >35 >mm as well as digital photos. It converted by way of a drop-in component >shaped like a film canister. Is anyone familiar with this camera? > >You're thinking of Imagek / Siliconfilm. The product exists only on their >website, http://www.siliconfilm.com/ . > >LPO Bob Kegel >Aberdeen Police Dept. >Aberdeen, WA > >[EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 [EndPost by "Stephen Ojena" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 00:20:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7Q4KJih021366 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:20:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: <169.2309d1d2.2c7bd273@aol.com> Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:20:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 04:20:13.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[583E8610:01C36B89] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu David: You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice repudiated Turvey's claim. In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey had claimed. There remained yet one more troubling allegation. In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading distortion of fact on Turvey's part. Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture on). If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work of his living arrangements. Shaun > > Cathy O'Reilly > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to such a > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > David > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 00:41:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7Q4flfP021999 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:41:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:41:41 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Shaun; You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the internet, believing that because you've made friends with some members of the West Memphis Police Department present yourself to others as some kind of expert. A habit that has landedyou in troublemorethan once. And once again, your false statements are as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is anymore? What can be said in response to your numerous false statements is that of the two of us, I am taken to task under oath of perjury as an expert, something your good friend Richard Walter is currently learning about vgiven his apparent expulsion from the Vidocq Society. You, on the other hand, have been exposed as a fraud time and time again. If even half of what you were saying about me bore the least resemblance to the truth, I would have been charged with perjury every time I testified in court by a gleefull prosecution. In short, my career would be going the way of your only supporter, Richard Walter. Stop wasting band-width. You embarass yourself and the good name of the telephone company you work for. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of shaun wheeler Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:20 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey David: You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice repudiated Turvey's claim. In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey had claimed. There remained yet one more troubling allegation. In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading distortion of fact on Turvey's part. Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture on). If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work of his living arrangements. Shaun > > Cathy O'Reilly > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to such a > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > David > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 01:00:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7Q5070Z022491 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:00:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:00:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 05:00:01.0126 (UTC) FILETIME=[E793D860:01C36B8E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Brent: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 4:41 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > David; > > I think that my education might give it away; MS = Master's of Science in > Forensic Science. That and my history of casework, testimony, and published > works. Your two books are on profiling. The dedication of the second one mentions George and Melissa Baggen by name. Remember them? The homicide of Melissa's sister and George's other daughter is unsolved. You moved in with Melissa while she was engaged to Stan Eliason. I've got a copy of the letter you authored to Tony Zimmer admitting as much. Dr. Thomas Johnson, who runs the institution from which you graduated, stated to me flatly in 1999 that you were not, on the basis of your degree, qualified as a forensic scientist. Your resumes and CVs since 1998 show no subsequent training that would otherwise qualify you to be one. If you dispute this, name the times and dates. Dr. Johnson seems well qualified, as the Dean of the School of Public Safety at the University of New Haven to express the opinions he has. I'd like to remind you that Dr. Johnson was responsible for your termination from UNH so you should be both aware of who he is and what he does. Contrary to your allegations in your letter to (then) US Attorney General Janet Reno, you brought about your own termination by virtue of your misuse of UNH's name. Johnson required that you remove their name and logo from your website and you affirmed this in your subsequent correspondence. I have copies if you've lost them. > > Though not a criminalist, I am trained as a generalist. number of generalists working in the average lab = 0 Big surprise, eh? >Before anyone cries foul and pretends that this is a word that I just made up (which prosecutors > love to do), see: Gaensslen, Lee & Deforest (1983) "Forensic Science: An > Introduction to Criminalistics", McGraw Hill (p.17) Lee.....hmmmm, that names seems familiar. Saaaaaaaay, isn't that the same Henry Lee you claimed you "studied under" in despositions, sworn testimony and on your resumes (four of them) dating from 1998? Would it surprise you that Henry Lee says he doesn't remember you "studying under" him at all? In fact, he can't even remember your damned name. > > "Because of the depth and complexity of criminalistics, the need for > sepcialists in inescapable. .....and the need for 'generalists' is non-existent. Number of labs in which Brent has worked = 0. Big surprise, eh? >There can be serious problems, however, with > overspecialization. You bet. Bigger staff=more dollars=budget problems. For this, you went to two more years of school? >Persons who have a working knowledge of a broad range of > criminalistics problems and techniques are also necessary. You bet. Brent has questioned the results of medical examiners (California v. Alex Dale Thomas, Pierce County v. Guy Rasmussen) and DNA experts or purported to have specialized knowledge about false confessions (Kansas v. Artis Cobb), there really are no limits to cases in which, without any of the training incumbent on those disciplines, he is willing to challenge the qualified opinions of individuals with experience and training in those areas. A generalist has no business testifying about mode of death, yet that's exactly what Turvey's done. A generalist has no business testifying about false confessions, yet that's exactly what Turvey's done. A generalist has no business testifying about luminol, as in the Kupaza case, yet that's exactly what Turvey's done. I obtained Turvey's testimony, as a "generalist" in the Kupaza case and his understanding of the basic science involved could hardly be more flawed. How somebody, as a generalist, can call into question the science involved without at least a fundamental understanding of that science is ludicrous. >These people are called generalists. Show of hands - How many labs are hiring generalists during the next two or three years? >The value of generalists lies in their ability to look > at all of the aspects of a complex case and decide what needs to be done, > whic specialists should be involved, and in which order to carry out the > required examinations." So Brent, restated, any lab or investigation that doesn't have a.....generalist is it? Any lab or investigation that does NOT have a generalist around, can't possibly function properly lacking their......'general'.....knowledge about complex cases and what needs to be done, that's how essential 'generalists' are, right? If I called up say the NYC Medical Examiner's Office, how many generalists would they have? I hate to think they would't have one. I mean, that's the place Vincent Di'Maio came from, right? Could it be that this was one of the gross oversights with which he should be charged, that he never hired a "generalist"? How about Bexar County? They got a generalist on the payroll? > > This concept seems to be conveniently absent from the newest works on > forensic science. ........only part of the vast, anti-Brent Turvey conspiracy. BTW, Stan said to tell you he's bringing you something back from Idaho. Not sure what it is, only that he asked me to tell you. >That's going to lead to more overspecialization and more > problems, in my view. ......based, no doubt, on the many years you've worked in crime labs. Remind me again, Brent, which labs are those you've worked in, I must have missed them on your resumes (a rather large collection, so I'm sure you'll understand). > > Also, there is a relationship between criminal investigation, forensic > science, crime reconstuction, and criminal profiling that has been clearly > drawn by those who've written on the subject like Hans Gross, Paul Kirk, and > most recently Henry Lee. That and other texts over the years such as: ..................so Brent, who is the generalist that supervises Dr. Lee so he knows what to do next? Or does Lee send generalists out to crime scenes to help the lesser qualified blood spatter experts or trace evidence specialists figure out what to do next? Should I be worried if I see Memphis Police Department show up at a homicide without a generalist in tow? Looking forward to your usual evasive answers. Shaun [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 03:10:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7Q7AA0x024899 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:10:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:47:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 06:47:32.0395 (UTC) FILETIME=[ECD55FB0:01C36B9D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > Shaun; > > You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the internet, believing that because > you've made friends with some members of the West Memphis Police Department > present yourself to others as some kind of expert. Brent, You seem to be confused. You appeared in Arkansas, you attacked that agency, then having established at least one court room on the planet where the was a bored judge who wanted some cheap entertainment, you went on to other things. I'm confident you shook the dust off your feet years ago. With respect to me, I've both praised and criticized WMPD but if they're professionals they'll accept both instead of expecting slavish obeisance to what they tell me I should think or what I have to say in order to remain on good terms with them. Allow me to point out one other thing has worked pretty well for me: Unlike you, I have never had to sue a police department. That's right, in my entire life I have never once filed a law suit against them. You have, of course, filed a lawsuit which I understand is moving forward against the City and Borough of Sitka and quite a few of their elected or appointed representatives. Take Bob Gorder, for example. Don't you think filing suit against him and alleging he is part of some organized crime element was a bit much? I've got your letters and complaint and they show you think there was some sort of huge conspiracy. Really I think you need to adopt a little different tact. Suing a law enforcement agency on a geographically isolated area with a fairly small population base isn't exactly my idea of how to win friends and influence people. It probably makes for a very quite and lonely winter. > A habit that has landedyou in trouble more than once. My idea of trouble starts with a loaded firearm, an accurate marksman and a lack of cover and concealment. Tell me, Brent, what exactly is your idea of trouble? >And once again, your false statements are > as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is anymore? Darn Brent, you got a real zinger in there. Do you mean like "the truth" in your testimony in Alex Dale Thomas? You remember that case, don't you? Your client was sentenced to death. Seems that the jury took notice of more than your white socks and the same suit for two days in a row. Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, testimony about sexual assault was something that, as generalist, you might not be qualified to do? How about Guy Ramussen? It must have really stung you not only to have a prosecutor completely toast your ass, but that it was a woman to boot! It wasn't terribly surprising, given your misogynistic attitudes, that of all the prosecutors you've butted heads with that you'd attack Barbara Corey-Boulet, worse, that you attempted on this list to continue the attack. In Rasmussen you disputed the mode of death but on top of that, you first stated in your deposition that you had no knowledge about the DNA tests but then begrudingly admitted you were aware that Rasmussen was linked by 12 year old Cynthia Allinger's blood, found on a shirt if memory serves me. But it gets better. You then began to try and address the subject matter of sadism, yet nowhere in your background to you have any training on the subject. UNH did not list it in the curriculum you took there. Most behavioralists would have been curious if Mr. Rasmussen had in the past, used cigarettes to torture young girls prior to assaulting them or at least attempting to assault them. Somehow, this escaped your mighty powers of observation. I was not terribly surprised when, after I asked about this, I learned that it was one of his little proclivities learned from one of his living (prior to being rehablitated) victims. But to answer your question, yeah, I've got a pretty good idea of what the truth is. Anytime you'd like to deal with it, be my guest. We can start nice and easy, maybe with simple stuff like, where you live, with whom, how you came to meet them, stuff like that. I'm sure it would interest many people to know you live with a client's daughter. Why not treat them to the full monty? > > What can be said in response to your numerous false statements is that of > the two of us, I am taken to task under oath of perjury as an expert, Thanks Brent, but at least four trees have died to clear your good name. > something your good friend Richard Walter is currently learning about vgiven > his apparent expulsion from the Vidocq Society. You, on the other hand, have > been exposed as a fraud time and time again. Brent, I'm not suing the community I live in. You are. If you prefer, I'll post the complaint, the reply and some of the documents that relate to it. If you are implyin in any way that I have fabricated or mislead people about the contents of the documents they can read and decide for themselves. I have it conveniently bundled into a PDF small enough to fit on a palmtop. > If even half of what you were saying about me bore the least resemblance to > the truth,""I would have been charged with perjury every time I testified in > court by a gleefull prosecution. Brent, I'm not a prosecutor. Neither are you. Most times they don't seem to be inclined to charge even the worst cases of perjury. Actually pay attention to a few trials and you might notice that. You are trying to prove a positive on the basis of a negative, but I guess you knew that, what with all your training in inductive and deductive methods, right? >In short, my career would be going the way > of your only supporter, Richard Walter. But wait, Brent, only a few paragraphs into your lengthy evasion you claimed I had friends at WMPD. What happened to them? Did they simply 'go away' before you managed to complete one email? Or don't you ever bother to read the garbage you write to see if you contradict yourself? > > Stop wasting band-width. You embarass yourself and the good name of the > telephone company you work for. Just a simple fact for you, Brent. Not much too it. Some of my past clients have included the US Secret Service, FBI, DEA, US Information Agency, stuff like that. I've got the records to prove it anytime you've got the money to make it worth my while. Oh, and one other thing, Brent. No telephone company had anything to do with the work I did for them. Anytime you'd like to compare client lists, why I'd be glad. I already have a pretty good idea of who your's are. What I can't figure out is why you continue to lie and tell people that it's fifty-fifty, when it's more like ninety-nine percent defense and one percent law enforcement (rural). Like I said, feel free to attack me personally. Just be a pal and actually answer even a modest one or two questions, maybe where you live, who you live with, who your client is in Sitka, stuff like that. You know, questions like a "generalist" might ask to add investigative focus? Maybe you can even help David out, and tell him where all the generalists work in the crime labs and why none are on those many television shows about forensics? Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of shaun wheeler > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:20 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > > > David: > > You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been > offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. > Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that > institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and > worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. > Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. > > The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master > of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and > purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice > repudiated Turvey's claim. > > In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of > Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey > was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he > was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic > scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a > curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I > lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it > would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any > reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey > had claimed. > > There remained yet one more troubling allegation. > > In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had > engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically > alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a > victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was > superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that > letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey > alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they > failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. > > Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, > not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling > another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an > interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had > been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The > subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, > and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the > University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading > distortion of fact on Turvey's part. > > Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to > AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of > Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in > Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture > on). > > If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and > morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was > working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide > of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work > of his living arrangements. > > > Shaun > > > > > > Cathy O'Reilly > > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to > such a > > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > > > David > > > > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 07:32:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QBWIUc029122 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:31:03 -0400 From: "Bradley Brown" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] camera Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7QBWHhm029117 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Thanks to all who replied. Brad >>> "Stephen Ojena" 08/25 5:38 PM >>> I believe I saw a similar product made by Polaroid. As I recall you get a digital image and you can print it on Polaroid film if you wish. Picture quality was only fair. Steve Ojena Martinez, CA >From: "Bob Kegel" >Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >To: >Subject: Re: [forens] camera >Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:22:49 -0700 > >On Monday, August 25, 2003, 12:02 PM, Bradley Brown wrote: > > > > > A few years back, I remember seeing an ad for a camera which took both >35 >mm as well as digital photos. It converted by way of a drop-in component >shaped like a film canister. Is anyone familiar with this camera? > >You're thinking of Imagek / Siliconfilm. The product exists only on their >website, http://www.siliconfilm.com/ . > >LPO Bob Kegel >Aberdeen Police Dept. >Aberdeen, WA > >[EndPost by "Bob Kegel" ] _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 [EndPost by "Stephen Ojena" ] [EndPost by "Bradley Brown" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 08:16:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QCGGix000188 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Lynn Coceani" To: Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:58:31 +1000 Well, I'll be stuffed - it's the great Dr Shaun! The forensic proctologist aka water treatment person! The things that crawl out from under rocks to sling mud at people amaze me and don't bother starting on me again because you know I can outdo you on a bad day! You're full of it, Wheeler! Now get off! You know who this is! ----- Original Message ----- From: "shaun wheeler" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > David: > > You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been > offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. > Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that > institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and > worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. > Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. > > The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master > of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and > purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice > repudiated Turvey's claim. > > In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of > Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey > was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he > was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic > scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a > curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I > lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it > would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any > reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey > had claimed. > > There remained yet one more troubling allegation. > > In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had > engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically > alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a > victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was > superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that > letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey > alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they > failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. > > Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, > not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling > another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an > interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had > been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The > subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, > and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the > University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading > distortion of fact on Turvey's part. > > Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to > AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of > Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in > Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture > on). > > If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and > morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was > working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide > of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work > of his living arrangements. > > > Shaun > > > > > > Cathy O'Reilly > > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to > such a > > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > > > David > > > > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] > [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 08:29:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QCTJ0x000779 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.11 July 24, 2002 Message-ID: From: "Jenny Smith" Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:29:12 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GHQPROD/MSHP400(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 08/26/2003 07:29:12 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cathy, There are so many of us on this list and I rarely step in and reply to general questions. There seems to usually be no lack of those that will.... I am sorry your question fell through the crack. Please, what was your question for us? Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 Cathy OReilly cc: Sent by: Subject: [forens] Mr Turvey owner-forens@statg en.ncsu.edu 08/25/2003 02:44 PM Please respond to forens I have been watching in this list for several months now getting lots of little bits of information to help me in the teaching of my HS forensics class. I have been learning how real criminalists discuss etc..... On the rare occasions that I have asked for help, people have been incredibly nice and forthcomming. It is a great resource for me. Having said that, I have only one comment for you My comment; Well over a year ago, I emailed you for information on forensics and asked for help/advice as I began my first year of teaching this topic. I am very disappointed that you never responded to me and just wanted to let you know that. I have had so much help from others in the past two years that I can only assume you are not indicitive of the majority of people involved in this field. I know you are busy as are others involved in this field but those of us teaching the work force of tomorrow could use a little help sometimes and it really does not take much time to answer a question or lend a little support or advice. Please think twice befoe deleting an e-mail in the future. Cathy O'Reilly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Cathy OReilly ] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 10:46:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QEksd5005085 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:46:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear list members, I have never responded to this list, and quit frankly am not sure why I even belong to this list after reading the last few exchanges of mud slinging between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. I have on the rare occasion found this list to be very helpful and sometimes amusing with information and questions that have been posted. I also think that there are a lot of folks out there who are very helpful and genuinely interested in this list being a "Forensic" list. However, Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler airing there grievances with each other on this list is both pathetic and extremely unprofessional and quit frankly if I were in a "Forensic" situation where I heard either of their names come up, I'm not sure if I would be laughing or crying, but I would definitely be running in the opposite direction. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Turvey or Mr. Wheeler nor do I know how others on this list feel about them and really I don't care, but I do think that it would be very nice if both of these gentlemen could be kind enough to keep the exchange of Turvey bashing and Wheeler bashing between themselves, leaving the "forensic" list out of it. Kristin Walti -----Original Message----- From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:48 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > Shaun; > > You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the internet, believing that because > you've made friends with some members of the West Memphis Police Department > present yourself to others as some kind of expert. Brent, You seem to be confused. You appeared in Arkansas, you attacked that agency, then having established at least one court room on the planet where the was a bored judge who wanted some cheap entertainment, you went on to other things. I'm confident you shook the dust off your feet years ago. With respect to me, I've both praised and criticized WMPD but if they're professionals they'll accept both instead of expecting slavish obeisance to what they tell me I should think or what I have to say in order to remain on good terms with them. Allow me to point out one other thing has worked pretty well for me: Unlike you, I have never had to sue a police department. That's right, in my entire life I have never once filed a law suit against them. You have, of course, filed a lawsuit which I understand is moving forward against the City and Borough of Sitka and quite a few of their elected or appointed representatives. Take Bob Gorder, for example. Don't you think filing suit against him and alleging he is part of some organized crime element was a bit much? I've got your letters and complaint and they show you think there was some sort of huge conspiracy. Really I think you need to adopt a little different tact. Suing a law enforcement agency on a geographically isolated area with a fairly small population base isn't exactly my idea of how to win friends and influence people. It probably makes for a very quite and lonely winter. > A habit that has landedyou in trouble more than once. My idea of trouble starts with a loaded firearm, an accurate marksman and a lack of cover and concealment. Tell me, Brent, what exactly is your idea of trouble? >And once again, your false statements are > as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is anymore? Darn Brent, you got a real zinger in there. Do you mean like "the truth" in your testimony in Alex Dale Thomas? You remember that case, don't you? Your client was sentenced to death. Seems that the jury took notice of more than your white socks and the same suit for two days in a row. Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, testimony about sexual assault was something that, as generalist, you might not be qualified to do? How about Guy Ramussen? It must have really stung you not only to have a prosecutor completely toast your ass, but that it was a woman to boot! It wasn't terribly surprising, given your misogynistic attitudes, that of all the prosecutors you've butted heads with that you'd attack Barbara Corey-Boulet, worse, that you attempted on this list to continue the attack. In Rasmussen you disputed the mode of death but on top of that, you first stated in your deposition that you had no knowledge about the DNA tests but then begrudingly admitted you were aware that Rasmussen was linked by 12 year old Cynthia Allinger's blood, found on a shirt if memory serves me. But it gets better. You then began to try and address the subject matter of sadism, yet nowhere in your background to you have any training on the subject. UNH did not list it in the curriculum you took there. Most behavioralists would have been curious if Mr. Rasmussen had in the past, used cigarettes to torture young girls prior to assaulting them or at least attempting to assault them. Somehow, this escaped your mighty powers of observation. I was not terribly surprised when, after I asked about this, I learned that it was one of his little proclivities learned from one of his living (prior to being rehablitated) victims. But to answer your question, yeah, I've got a pretty good idea of what the truth is. Anytime you'd like to deal with it, be my guest. We can start nice and easy, maybe with simple stuff like, where you live, with whom, how you came to meet them, stuff like that. I'm sure it would interest many people to know you live with a client's daughter. Why not treat them to the full monty? > > What can be said in response to your numerous false statements is that of > the two of us, I am taken to task under oath of perjury as an expert, Thanks Brent, but at least four trees have died to clear your good name. > something your good friend Richard Walter is currently learning about vgiven > his apparent expulsion from the Vidocq Society. You, on the other hand, have > been exposed as a fraud time and time again. Brent, I'm not suing the community I live in. You are. If you prefer, I'll post the complaint, the reply and some of the documents that relate to it. If you are implyin in any way that I have fabricated or mislead people about the contents of the documents they can read and decide for themselves. I have it conveniently bundled into a PDF small enough to fit on a palmtop. > If even half of what you were saying about me bore the least resemblance to > the truth,""I would have been charged with perjury every time I testified in > court by a gleefull prosecution. Brent, I'm not a prosecutor. Neither are you. Most times they don't seem to be inclined to charge even the worst cases of perjury. Actually pay attention to a few trials and you might notice that. You are trying to prove a positive on the basis of a negative, but I guess you knew that, what with all your training in inductive and deductive methods, right? >In short, my career would be going the way > of your only supporter, Richard Walter. But wait, Brent, only a few paragraphs into your lengthy evasion you claimed I had friends at WMPD. What happened to them? Did they simply 'go away' before you managed to complete one email? Or don't you ever bother to read the garbage you write to see if you contradict yourself? > > Stop wasting band-width. You embarass yourself and the good name of the > telephone company you work for. Just a simple fact for you, Brent. Not much too it. Some of my past clients have included the US Secret Service, FBI, DEA, US Information Agency, stuff like that. I've got the records to prove it anytime you've got the money to make it worth my while. Oh, and one other thing, Brent. No telephone company had anything to do with the work I did for them. Anytime you'd like to compare client lists, why I'd be glad. I already have a pretty good idea of who your's are. What I can't figure out is why you continue to lie and tell people that it's fifty-fifty, when it's more like ninety-nine percent defense and one percent law enforcement (rural). Like I said, feel free to attack me personally. Just be a pal and actually answer even a modest one or two questions, maybe where you live, who you live with, who your client is in Sitka, stuff like that. You know, questions like a "generalist" might ask to add investigative focus? Maybe you can even help David out, and tell him where all the generalists work in the crime labs and why none are on those many television shows about forensics? Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of shaun wheeler > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:20 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > > > David: > > You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been > offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. > Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that > institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and > worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. > Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. > > The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master > of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and > purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice > repudiated Turvey's claim. > > In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of > Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey > was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he > was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic > scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a > curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I > lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it > would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any > reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey > had claimed. > > There remained yet one more troubling allegation. > > In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had > engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically > alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a > victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was > superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that > letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey > alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they > failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. > > Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, > not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling > another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an > interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had > been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The > subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, > and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the > University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading > distortion of fact on Turvey's part. > > Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to > AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of > Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in > Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture > on). > > If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and > morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was > working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide > of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work > of his living arrangements. > > > Shaun > > > > > > Cathy O'Reilly > > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to > such a > > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > > > David > > > > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] [EndPost by Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 11:04:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QF4i38006111 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:04:44 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <1a8.18a958ab.2c7cd0ff@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:04:31 EDT Subject: [forens] List Members To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu List members: Specialized 'lists' on the Internet are for the enhancement of knowledge in certain areas. Please, please, please. Keep this forensic list for this purpose. If there is 'discussion' between members, please do it in private. I am proud to be a forensic scientist and proud of those who enhance our science. Perhaps education is the answer to some very real problems voiced here -- of attorneys who should learn how to scrutinize the qualifications of 'experts'; of judges who allow the testimony of these 'experts' and of members of this list who should have the high ethical standards to contain professional criticism to the correct arenas. Kristin, do not believe that a small minority is representative of the vast majority. Most of us do an exceptional job with little recognition. Yet we love the science and will continue to pursue out science in an ethical and compassionate manner. Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 11:10:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QFAd9t006661 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [forens] Turvey et. al. To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.07a May 14, 2001 Message-ID: From: CBecnel@dps.state.la.us Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:11:58 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on mail02/SVR/DPS/LAGOV(Release 6.0.2CF2|July 23, 2003) at 08/26/2003 10:12:00 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu How about a new group: [The Turvey and Friends Group] Kristen, most people in the Forensic community already have their minds made up about the Turvey et. al. topic. I think that is why these emails are just kinda ignored by the vast majority of us. It IS unprofessional, but,as a long-time friend, and firearms examiner likes to say... "In the big picture of life, they don't really matter" Yeah, I know I'm paraphrasing Pat :-) I don't like their ramblings, you don't like their ramblings, and most people don't like their ramblings. The fact are these people will ramble in a public forum no matter what. That what the delete keys are for. Yeak, it'd be nice to live in a perfect world, of course, we'd ALL be out of a job. Adam |---------+-----------------------------> | | Kristin.Walti@stat| | | e.sd.us | | | Sent by: | | | owner-forens@statg| | | en.ncsu.edu | | | | | | | | | 08/26/2003 09:46 | | | AM | | | Please respond to | | | forens | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu | | cc: | | Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Dear list members, I have never responded to this list, and quit frankly am not sure why I even belong to this list after reading the last few exchanges of mud slinging between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. I have on the rare occasion found this list to be very helpful and sometimes amusing with information and questions that have been posted. I also think that there are a lot of folks out there who are very helpful and genuinely interested in this list being a "Forensic" list. However, Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler airing there grievances with each other on this list is both pathetic and extremely unprofessional and quit frankly if I were in a "Forensic" situation where I heard either of their names come up, I'm not sure if I would be laughing or crying, but I would definitely be running in the opposite direction. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Turvey or Mr. Wheeler nor do I know how others on this list feel about them and really I don't care, but I do think that it would be very nice if both of these gentlemen could be kind enough to keep the exchange of Turvey bashing and Wheeler bashing between themselves, leaving the "forensic" list out of it. Kristin Walti -----Original Message----- From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:48 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > Shaun; > > You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the internet, believing that because > you've made friends with some members of the West Memphis Police Department > present yourself to others as some kind of expert. Brent, You seem to be confused. You appeared in Arkansas, you attacked that agency, then having established at least one court room on the planet where the was a bored judge who wanted some cheap entertainment, you went on to other things. I'm confident you shook the dust off your feet years ago. With respect to me, I've both praised and criticized WMPD but if they're professionals they'll accept both instead of expecting slavish obeisance to what they tell me I should think or what I have to say in order to remain on good terms with them. Allow me to point out one other thing has worked pretty well for me: Unlike you, I have never had to sue a police department. That's right, in my entire life I have never once filed a law suit against them. You have, of course, filed a lawsuit which I understand is moving forward against the City and Borough of Sitka and quite a few of their elected or appointed representatives. Take Bob Gorder, for example. Don't you think filing suit against him and alleging he is part of some organized crime element was a bit much? I've got your letters and complaint and they show you think there was some sort of huge conspiracy. Really I think you need to adopt a little different tact. Suing a law enforcement agency on a geographically isolated area with a fairly small population base isn't exactly my idea of how to win friends and influence people. It probably makes for a very quite and lonely winter. > A habit that has landedyou in trouble more than once. My idea of trouble starts with a loaded firearm, an accurate marksman and a lack of cover and concealment. Tell me, Brent, what exactly is your idea of trouble? >And once again, your false statements are > as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is anymore? Darn Brent, you got a real zinger in there. Do you mean like "the truth" in your testimony in Alex Dale Thomas? You remember that case, don't you? Your client was sentenced to death. Seems that the jury took notice of more than your white socks and the same suit for two days in a row. Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, testimony about sexual assault was something that, as generalist, you might not be qualified to do? How about Guy Ramussen? It must have really stung you not only to have a prosecutor completely toast your ass, but that it was a woman to boot! It wasn't terribly surprising, given your misogynistic attitudes, that of all the prosecutors you've butted heads with that you'd attack Barbara Corey-Boulet, worse, that you attempted on this list to continue the attack. In Rasmussen you disputed the mode of death but on top of that, you first stated in your deposition that you had no knowledge about the DNA tests but then begrudingly admitted you were aware that Rasmussen was linked by 12 year old Cynthia Allinger's blood, found on a shirt if memory serves me. But it gets better. You then began to try and address the subject matter of sadism, yet nowhere in your background to you have any training on the subject. UNH did not list it in the curriculum you took there. Most behavioralists would have been curious if Mr. Rasmussen had in the past, used cigarettes to torture young girls prior to assaulting them or at least attempting to assault them. Somehow, this escaped your mighty powers of observation. I was not terribly surprised when, after I asked about this, I learned that it was one of his little proclivities learned from one of his living (prior to being rehablitated) victims. But to answer your question, yeah, I've got a pretty good idea of what the truth is. Anytime you'd like to deal with it, be my guest. We can start nice and easy, maybe with simple stuff like, where you live, with whom, how you came to meet them, stuff like that. I'm sure it would interest many people to know you live with a client's daughter. Why not treat them to the full monty? > > What can be said in response to your numerous false statements is that of > the two of us, I am taken to task under oath of perjury as an expert, Thanks Brent, but at least four trees have died to clear your good name. > something your good friend Richard Walter is currently learning about vgiven > his apparent expulsion from the Vidocq Society. You, on the other hand, have > been exposed as a fraud time and time again. Brent, I'm not suing the community I live in. You are. If you prefer, I'll post the complaint, the reply and some of the documents that relate to it. If you are implyin in any way that I have fabricated or mislead people about the contents of the documents they can read and decide for themselves. I have it conveniently bundled into a PDF small enough to fit on a palmtop. > If even half of what you were saying about me bore the least resemblance to > the truth,""I would have been charged with perjury every time I testified in > court by a gleefull prosecution. Brent, I'm not a prosecutor. Neither are you. Most times they don't seem to be inclined to charge even the worst cases of perjury. Actually pay attention to a few trials and you might notice that. You are trying to prove a positive on the basis of a negative, but I guess you knew that, what with all your training in inductive and deductive methods, right? >In short, my career would be going the way > of your only supporter, Richard Walter. But wait, Brent, only a few paragraphs into your lengthy evasion you claimed I had friends at WMPD. What happened to them? Did they simply 'go away' before you managed to complete one email? Or don't you ever bother to read the garbage you write to see if you contradict yourself? > > Stop wasting band-width. You embarass yourself and the good name of the > telephone company you work for. Just a simple fact for you, Brent. Not much too it. Some of my past clients have included the US Secret Service, FBI, DEA, US Information Agency, stuff like that. I've got the records to prove it anytime you've got the money to make it worth my while. Oh, and one other thing, Brent. No telephone company had anything to do with the work I did for them. Anytime you'd like to compare client lists, why I'd be glad. I already have a pretty good idea of who your's are. What I can't figure out is why you continue to lie and tell people that it's fifty-fifty, when it's more like ninety-nine percent defense and one percent law enforcement (rural). Like I said, feel free to attack me personally. Just be a pal and actually answer even a modest one or two questions, maybe where you live, who you live with, who your client is in Sitka, stuff like that. You know, questions like a "generalist" might ask to add investigative focus? Maybe you can even help David out, and tell him where all the generalists work in the crime labs and why none are on those many television shows about forensics? Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of shaun wheeler > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:20 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > > > David: > > You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been > offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. > Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that > institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and > worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. > Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. > > The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master > of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and > purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice > repudiated Turvey's claim. > > In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of > Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey > was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he > was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic > scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a > curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I > lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it > would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any > reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey > had claimed. > > There remained yet one more troubling allegation. > > In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had > engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically > alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a > victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was > superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that > letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey > alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they > failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. > > Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, > not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling > another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an > interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had > been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The > subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, > and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the > University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading > distortion of fact on Turvey's part. > > Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to > AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of > Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in > Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture > on). > > If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and > morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was > working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide > of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work > of his living arrangements. > > > Shaun > > > > > > Cathy O'Reilly > > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to > such a > > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > > > David > > > > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] [EndPost by Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] [EndPost by CBecnel@dps.state.la.us] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 11:36:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QFagjb008165 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5DE3613F9E21D611A16800065B3B443A334623@NASHMAIL01> From: "Trudeau, Kristie" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:35:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu You go girl:) Kristie -----Original Message----- From: Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us [mailto:Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:47 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Dear list members, I have never responded to this list, and quit frankly am not sure why I even belong to this list after reading the last few exchanges of mud slinging between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. I have on the rare occasion found this list to be very helpful and sometimes amusing with information and questions that have been posted. I also think that there are a lot of folks out there who are very helpful and genuinely interested in this list being a "Forensic" list. However, Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler airing there grievances with each other on this list is both pathetic and extremely unprofessional and quit frankly if I were in a "Forensic" situation where I heard either of their names come up, I'm not sure if I would be laughing or crying, but I would definitely be running in the opposite direction. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Turvey or Mr. Wheeler nor do I know how others on this list feel about them and really I don't care, but I do think that it would be very nice if both of these gentlemen could be kind enough to keep the exchange of Turvey bashing and Wheeler bashing between themselves, leaving the "forensic" list out of it. Kristin Walti -----Original Message----- From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:48 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > Shaun; > > You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the internet, believing that because > you've made friends with some members of the West Memphis Police Department > present yourself to others as some kind of expert. Brent, You seem to be confused. You appeared in Arkansas, you attacked that agency, then having established at least one court room on the planet where the was a bored judge who wanted some cheap entertainment, you went on to other things. I'm confident you shook the dust off your feet years ago. With respect to me, I've both praised and criticized WMPD but if they're professionals they'll accept both instead of expecting slavish obeisance to what they tell me I should think or what I have to say in order to remain on good terms with them. Allow me to point out one other thing has worked pretty well for me: Unlike you, I have never had to sue a police department. That's right, in my entire life I have never once filed a law suit against them. You have, of course, filed a lawsuit which I understand is moving forward against the City and Borough of Sitka and quite a few of their elected or appointed representatives. Take Bob Gorder, for example. Don't you think filing suit against him and alleging he is part of some organized crime element was a bit much? I've got your letters and complaint and they show you think there was some sort of huge conspiracy. Really I think you need to adopt a little different tact. Suing a law enforcement agency on a geographically isolated area with a fairly small population base isn't exactly my idea of how to win friends and influence people. It probably makes for a very quite and lonely winter. > A habit that has landedyou in trouble more than once. My idea of trouble starts with a loaded firearm, an accurate marksman and a lack of cover and concealment. Tell me, Brent, what exactly is your idea of trouble? >And once again, your false statements are > as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is anymore? Darn Brent, you got a real zinger in there. Do you mean like "the truth" in your testimony in Alex Dale Thomas? You remember that case, don't you? Your client was sentenced to death. Seems that the jury took notice of more than your white socks and the same suit for two days in a row. Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, testimony about sexual assault was something that, as generalist, you might not be qualified to do? How about Guy Ramussen? It must have really stung you not only to have a prosecutor completely toast your ass, but that it was a woman to boot! It wasn't terribly surprising, given your misogynistic attitudes, that of all the prosecutors you've butted heads with that you'd attack Barbara Corey-Boulet, worse, that you attempted on this list to continue the attack. In Rasmussen you disputed the mode of death but on top of that, you first stated in your deposition that you had no knowledge about the DNA tests but then begrudingly admitted you were aware that Rasmussen was linked by 12 year old Cynthia Allinger's blood, found on a shirt if memory serves me. But it gets better. You then began to try and address the subject matter of sadism, yet nowhere in your background to you have any training on the subject. UNH did not list it in the curriculum you took there. Most behavioralists would have been curious if Mr. Rasmussen had in the past, used cigarettes to torture young girls prior to assaulting them or at least attempting to assault them. Somehow, this escaped your mighty powers of observation. I was not terribly surprised when, after I asked about this, I learned that it was one of his little proclivities learned from one of his living (prior to being rehablitated) victims. But to answer your question, yeah, I've got a pretty good idea of what the truth is. Anytime you'd like to deal with it, be my guest. We can start nice and easy, maybe with simple stuff like, where you live, with whom, how you came to meet them, stuff like that. I'm sure it would interest many people to know you live with a client's daughter. Why not treat them to the full monty? > > What can be said in response to your numerous false statements is that of > the two of us, I am taken to task under oath of perjury as an expert, Thanks Brent, but at least four trees have died to clear your good name. > something your good friend Richard Walter is currently learning about vgiven > his apparent expulsion from the Vidocq Society. You, on the other hand, have > been exposed as a fraud time and time again. Brent, I'm not suing the community I live in. You are. If you prefer, I'll post the complaint, the reply and some of the documents that relate to it. If you are implyin in any way that I have fabricated or mislead people about the contents of the documents they can read and decide for themselves. I have it conveniently bundled into a PDF small enough to fit on a palmtop. > If even half of what you were saying about me bore the least resemblance to > the truth,""I would have been charged with perjury every time I testified in > court by a gleefull prosecution. Brent, I'm not a prosecutor. Neither are you. Most times they don't seem to be inclined to charge even the worst cases of perjury. Actually pay attention to a few trials and you might notice that. You are trying to prove a positive on the basis of a negative, but I guess you knew that, what with all your training in inductive and deductive methods, right? >In short, my career would be going the way > of your only supporter, Richard Walter. But wait, Brent, only a few paragraphs into your lengthy evasion you claimed I had friends at WMPD. What happened to them? Did they simply 'go away' before you managed to complete one email? Or don't you ever bother to read the garbage you write to see if you contradict yourself? > > Stop wasting band-width. You embarass yourself and the good name of the > telephone company you work for. Just a simple fact for you, Brent. Not much too it. Some of my past clients have included the US Secret Service, FBI, DEA, US Information Agency, stuff like that. I've got the records to prove it anytime you've got the money to make it worth my while. Oh, and one other thing, Brent. No telephone company had anything to do with the work I did for them. Anytime you'd like to compare client lists, why I'd be glad. I already have a pretty good idea of who your's are. What I can't figure out is why you continue to lie and tell people that it's fifty-fifty, when it's more like ninety-nine percent defense and one percent law enforcement (rural). Like I said, feel free to attack me personally. Just be a pal and actually answer even a modest one or two questions, maybe where you live, who you live with, who your client is in Sitka, stuff like that. You know, questions like a "generalist" might ask to add investigative focus? Maybe you can even help David out, and tell him where all the generalists work in the crime labs and why none are on those many television shows about forensics? Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of shaun wheeler > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:20 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > > > David: > > You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been > offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. > Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that > institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and > worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. > Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. > > The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master > of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and > purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice > repudiated Turvey's claim. > > In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of > Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey > was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he > was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic > scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a > curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I > lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it > would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any > reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey > had claimed. > > There remained yet one more troubling allegation. > > In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had > engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically > alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a > victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was > superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that > letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey > alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they > failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. > > Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, > not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling > another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an > interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had > been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The > subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, > and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the > University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading > distortion of fact on Turvey's part. > > Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to > AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of > Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in > Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture > on). > > If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and > morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was > working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide > of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work > of his living arrangements. > > > Shaun > > > > > > Cathy O'Reilly > > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to > such a > > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > > > David > > > > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] [EndPost by Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Trudeau, Kristie" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 11:37:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QFbJQO008273 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:37:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Markblewis@aol.com Message-ID: <177.1f1dee3b.2c7cd8a0@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:37:04 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] List Members To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 910 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 8/26/2003 11:06:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SkipnCar@aol.com writes: > we > love the science and will continue to pursue out science in an ethical and > compassionate manner. > Carla, Nicely Said. ~ m --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by Markblewis@aol.com] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 12:30:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QGUaHT011022 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003001c36bef$596c2040$2602a8c0@fyreatr> From: "Donna Brandelli" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Turvey et. al. Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:30:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7QGUaHU011022 I concur. I use it often. Donna Brandelli ----- Original Message ----- From: CBecnel@dps.state.la.us To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 8:11 AM Subject: [forens] Turvey et. al. How about a new group: [The Turvey and Friends Group] Kristen, most people in the Forensic community already have their minds made up about the Turvey et. al. topic. I think that is why these emails are just kinda ignored by the vast majority of us. It IS unprofessional, but,as a long-time friend, and firearms examiner likes to say... "In the big picture of life, they don't really matter" Yeah, I know I'm paraphrasing Pat :-) I don't like their ramblings, you don't like their ramblings, and most people don't like their ramblings. The fact are these people will ramble in a public forum no matter what. That what the delete keys are for. Yeak, it'd be nice to live in a perfect world, of course, we'd ALL be out of a job. Adam |---------+-----------------------------> | | Kristin.Walti@stat| | | e.sd.us | | | Sent by: | | | owner-forens@statg| | | en.ncsu.edu | | | | | | | | | 08/26/2003 09:46 | | | AM | | | Please respond to | | | forens | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu | | cc: | | Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Dear list members, I have never responded to this list, and quit frankly am not sure why I even belong to this list after reading the last few exchanges of mud slinging between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. I have on the rare occasion found this list to be very helpful and sometimes amusing with information and questions that have been posted. I also think that there are a lot of folks out there who are very helpful and genuinely interested in this list being a "Forensic" list. However, Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler airing there grievances with each other on this list is both pathetic and extremely unprofessional and quit frankly if I were in a "Forensic" situation where I heard either of their names come up, I'm not sure if I would be laughing or crying, but I would definitely be running in the opposite direction. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Turvey or Mr. Wheeler nor do I know how others on this list feel about them and really I don't care, but I do think that it would be very nice if both of these gentlemen could be kind enough to keep the exchange of Turvey bashing and Wheeler bashing between themselves, leaving the "forensic" list out of it. Kristin Walti -----Original Message----- From: shaun wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:48 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > Shaun; > > You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the internet, believing that because > you've made friends with some members of the West Memphis Police Department > present yourself to others as some kind of expert. Brent, You seem to be confused. You appeared in Arkansas, you attacked that agency, then having established at least one court room on the planet where the was a bored judge who wanted some cheap entertainment, you went on to other things. I'm confident you shook the dust off your feet years ago. With respect to me, I've both praised and criticized WMPD but if they're professionals they'll accept both instead of expecting slavish obeisance to what they tell me I should think or what I have to say in order to remain on good terms with them. Allow me to point out one other thing has worked pretty well for me: Unlike you, I have never had to sue a police department. That's right, in my entire life I have never once filed a law suit against them. You have, of course, filed a lawsuit which I understand is moving forward against the City and Borough of Sitka and quite a few of their elected or appointed representatives. Take Bob Gorder, for example. Don't you think filing suit against him and alleging he is part of some organized crime element was a bit much? I've got your letters and complaint and they show you think there was some sort of huge conspiracy. Really I think you need to adopt a little different tact. Suing a law enforcement agency on a geographically isolated area with a fairly small population base isn't exactly my idea of how to win friends and influence people. It probably makes for a very quite and lonely winter. > A habit that has landedyou in trouble more than once. My idea of trouble starts with a loaded firearm, an accurate marksman and a lack of cover and concealment. Tell me, Brent, what exactly is your idea of trouble? >And once again, your false statements are > as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is anymore? Darn Brent, you got a real zinger in there. Do you mean like "the truth" in your testimony in Alex Dale Thomas? You remember that case, don't you? Your client was sentenced to death. Seems that the jury took notice of more than your white socks and the same suit for two days in a row. Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, testimony about sexual assault was something that, as generalist, you might not be qualified to do? How about Guy Ramussen? It must have really stung you not only to have a prosecutor completely toast your ass, but that it was a woman to boot! It wasn't terribly surprising, given your misogynistic attitudes, that of all the prosecutors you've butted heads with that you'd attack Barbara Corey-Boulet, worse, that you attempted on this list to continue the attack. In Rasmussen you disputed the mode of death but on top of that, you first stated in your deposition that you had no knowledge about the DNA tests but then begrudingly admitted you were aware that Rasmussen was linked by 12 year old Cynthia Allinger's blood, found on a shirt if memory serves me. But it gets better. You then began to try and address the subject matter of sadism, yet nowhere in your background to you have any training on the subject. UNH did not list it in the curriculum you took there. Most behavioralists would have been curious if Mr. Rasmussen had in the past, used cigarettes to torture young girls prior to assaulting them or at least attempting to assault them. Somehow, this escaped your mighty powers of observation. I was not terribly surprised when, after I asked about this, I learned that it was one of his little proclivities learned from one of his living (prior to being rehablitated) victims. But to answer your question, yeah, I've got a pretty good idea of what the truth is. Anytime you'd like to deal with it, be my guest. We can start nice and easy, maybe with simple stuff like, where you live, with whom, how you came to meet them, stuff like that. I'm sure it would interest many people to know you live with a client's daughter. Why not treat them to the full monty? > > What can be said in response to your numerous false statements is that of > the two of us, I am taken to task under oath of perjury as an expert, Thanks Brent, but at least four trees have died to clear your good name. > something your good friend Richard Walter is currently learning about vgiven > his apparent expulsion from the Vidocq Society. You, on the other hand, have > been exposed as a fraud time and time again. Brent, I'm not suing the community I live in. You are. If you prefer, I'll post the complaint, the reply and some of the documents that relate to it. If you are implyin in any way that I have fabricated or mislead people about the contents of the documents they can read and decide for themselves. I have it conveniently bundled into a PDF small enough to fit on a palmtop. > If even half of what you were saying about me bore the least resemblance to > the truth,""I would have been charged with perjury every time I testified in > court by a gleefull prosecution. Brent, I'm not a prosecutor. Neither are you. Most times they don't seem to be inclined to charge even the worst cases of perjury. Actually pay attention to a few trials and you might notice that. You are trying to prove a positive on the basis of a negative, but I guess you knew that, what with all your training in inductive and deductive methods, right? >In short, my career would be going the way > of your only supporter, Richard Walter. But wait, Brent, only a few paragraphs into your lengthy evasion you claimed I had friends at WMPD. What happened to them? Did they simply 'go away' before you managed to complete one email? Or don't you ever bother to read the garbage you write to see if you contradict yourself? > > Stop wasting band-width. You embarass yourself and the good name of the > telephone company you work for. Just a simple fact for you, Brent. Not much too it. Some of my past clients have included the US Secret Service, FBI, DEA, US Information Agency, stuff like that. I've got the records to prove it anytime you've got the money to make it worth my while. Oh, and one other thing, Brent. No telephone company had anything to do with the work I did for them. Anytime you'd like to compare client lists, why I'd be glad. I already have a pretty good idea of who your's are. What I can't figure out is why you continue to lie and tell people that it's fifty-fifty, when it's more like ninety-nine percent defense and one percent law enforcement (rural). Like I said, feel free to attack me personally. Just be a pal and actually answer even a modest one or two questions, maybe where you live, who you live with, who your client is in Sitka, stuff like that. You know, questions like a "generalist" might ask to add investigative focus? Maybe you can even help David out, and tell him where all the generalists work in the crime labs and why none are on those many television shows about forensics? Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of shaun wheeler > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:20 PM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > > > David: > > You are correct, Brent is not a forensic scientist. He claimed to have been > offered a job by one of the teaching institutions here in my state. > Unfortunately he was being untruthful and according to the director of that > institute, the sole hiring authority, he was never tendered an offer and > worse, the reason was Turvey lacked the training. The director's name is Dr. > Lee Colwell and he is well respected by most of his peers in this area. > > The obfuscatory element in Brent's presentation is that he holds a "Master > of Forensic Science - Investigative Concentration" degree from UNH and > purports that he "studied in Dr. Henry Lee". Unfortunately Lee has twice > repudiated Turvey's claim. > > In August of 1999, I called UNH and spoke with the Dean of the School of > Public Safety, Dr. Thomas Johnson. In a word, Johnson said that while Turvey > was perhaps well qualified to read reports or perhaps understand them, he > was not qualified, on the basis of his training, to call himself a forensic > scientist. Troubled by this revelation, I asked if UNH had perchance begun a > curriculum of training profilers. Bear in mind that for several years I > lived in the shadows of this stodgy and quite venerated institution so it > would have suprised me to learn this to be true. He stated without any > reservations that UNH had not trained anybody to be a profiler, as Turvey > had claimed. > > There remained yet one more troubling allegation. > > In 1999, Turvey alleged that Bill Hagmaier, formerly head of NCAVC, had > engaged in a conspiracy to cause him and his business harm. He specifically > alleged, in a deposition in the Cynthia Allinger homicide, that he was a > victim of the law enforcement community and it was because his method was > superior to that of the FBI that this was so. I shared the contents of that > letter with Dr. Johnson over the phone and asked him if, as Mr. Turvey > alleged, that Agent Hagmaier had threatened UNH with retaliation if they > failed to end Turvey's contract as an adjunct lecturer. > > Johnson stated that while Hagmaier had in fact called, it was very cordial, > not hostile at all and it was in the form of one professional calling > another. I asked if he felt intimidated in any way that the FBI had an > interest in this. He said not at all and that no retaliatory threats had > been made whatsoever. Merely one professional making a courtesy call. The > subject of the call was Turvey's abuse of UNH's name and reputation. He was, > and I observed this to be true, billing himself as the "profiler from the > University of New Haven". This was, of course, yet another misleading > distortion of fact on Turvey's part. > > Turvey's allegations did not end there though. He alleged in a letter to > AAFS president, Dr. McFeely, these same things and added to it the names of > Bob Keppel and Richard Walter, the latter of whom you have seen maligned in > Turvey's recent treatise on fraud (a subject he is well qualified to lecture > on). > > If Brent wants to take the high road with respect to his ethics and > morality, ask him to explain where he lives, how he got there and who he was > working for at the time. Even if he solved the sexual assault and homicide > of his domestic partner's sibling, a defense attorney would make short work > of his living arrangements. > > > Shaun > > > > > > Cathy O'Reilly > > I had no idea Mr. Turvey was a forensic scientist. I thought he was an > > expert in criminal profiling, and would have no contribution to make to > such a > > request, unless you are teaching profiling. > > > > David > > > > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] > > > > [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] [EndPost by Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] [EndPost by CBecnel@dps.state.la.us] --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Donna Brandelli" ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 13:23:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7QHNbjc012763 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030826172335.61625.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:23:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Ai Loan Nguyen-Kropp Subject: RE: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: <5DE3613F9E21D611A16800065B3B443A334623@NASHMAIL01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu You know.. I can't believe this stuff is going on again. Can't you two just call it a truce or something. Come on, this back and forth stuff has been going on since the late 90's. We've all heard it before. No need to rehash it again. I see enough drama in the courtroom all day. a --- "Trudeau, Kristie" wrote: > You go girl:) > Kristie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us > [mailto:Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:47 AM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler > > Dear list members, > > I have never responded to this list, and quit > frankly am not sure why I even > belong to this list after reading the last few > exchanges of mud slinging > between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. > > I have on the rare occasion found this list to be > very helpful and sometimes > amusing with information and questions that have > been posted. I also think > that there are a lot of folks out there who are very > helpful and genuinely > interested in this list being a "Forensic" list. > However, Mr. Turvey and > Mr. Wheeler airing there grievances with each other > on this list is both > pathetic and extremely unprofessional and quit > frankly if I were in a > "Forensic" situation where I heard either of their > names come up, I'm not > sure if I would be laughing or crying, but I would > definitely be running in > the opposite direction. > > I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Turvey or > Mr. Wheeler nor do I > know how others on this list feel about them and > really I don't care, but I > do think that it would be very nice if both of these > gentlemen could be kind > enough to keep the exchange of Turvey bashing and > Wheeler bashing between > themselves, leaving the "forensic" list out of it. > > Kristin Walti > > -----Original Message----- > From: shaun wheeler > [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:48 AM > To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Turvey" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM > Subject: RE: [forens] Mr Turvey > > > > Shaun; > > > > You are an unfortunate conseuquence of the > internet, believing that > because > > you've made friends with some members of the West > Memphis Police > Department > > present yourself to others as some kind of expert. > > Brent, > > You seem to be confused. > > You appeared in Arkansas, you attacked that agency, > then having established > at least one court room on the planet where the was > a bored judge who wanted > some cheap entertainment, you went on to other > things. I'm confident you > shook the dust off your feet years ago. With respect > to me, I've both > praised and criticized WMPD but if they're > professionals they'll accept both > instead of expecting slavish obeisance to what they > tell me I should think > or what I have to say in order to remain on good > terms with them. > > Allow me to point out one other thing has worked > pretty well for me: > > Unlike you, I have never had to sue a police > department. > > That's right, in my entire life I have never once > filed a law suit against > them. You have, of course, filed a lawsuit which I > understand is moving > forward against the City and Borough of Sitka and > quite a few of their > elected or appointed representatives. Take Bob > Gorder, for example. Don't > you think filing suit against him and alleging he is > part of some organized > crime element was a bit much? I've got your letters > and complaint and they > show you think there was some sort of huge > conspiracy. > > Really I think you need to adopt a little different > tact. Suing a law > enforcement agency on a geographically isolated area > with a fairly small > population base isn't exactly my idea of how to win > friends and influence > people. It probably makes for a very quite and > lonely winter. > > > A habit that has landedyou in trouble more than > once. > > My idea of trouble starts with a loaded firearm, an > accurate marksman and a > lack of cover and concealment. Tell me, Brent, what > exactly is your idea of > trouble? > > > >And once again, your false statements are > > as balant as ever. Do even know what the truth is > anymore? > > Darn Brent, you got a real zinger in there. > > Do you mean like "the truth" in your testimony in > Alex Dale Thomas? You > remember that case, don't you? Your client was > sentenced to death. Seems > that the jury took notice of more than your white > socks and the same suit > for two days in a row. > > Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, > testimony about sexual assault > was something that, as generalist, you might not be > qualified to do? > > How about Guy Ramussen? > > It must have really stung you not only to have a > prosecutor completely toast > your ass, but that it was a woman to boot! It wasn't > terribly surprising, > given your misogynistic attitudes, that of all the > prosecutors you've butted > heads with that you'd attack Barbara Corey-Boulet, > worse, that you attempted > on this list to continue the attack. > > In Rasmussen you disputed the mode of death but on > top of that, you first > stated in your deposition that you had no knowledge > about the DNA tests but > then begrudingly admitted you were aware that > Rasmussen was linked by 12 > year old Cynthia Allinger's blood, found on a shirt > if memory serves me. But > it gets better. You then began to try and address > the subject matter of > sadism, yet nowhere in your background to you have > any training on the > subject. UNH did not list it in the curriculum you > took there. > > Most behavioralists would have been curious if Mr. > Rasmussen had in the > past, used cigarettes to torture young girls prior > to assaulting them or at > least attempting to assault them. Somehow, this > escaped your mighty powers > of observation. I was not terribly surprised when, > after I asked about this, > I learned that it was one of his little proclivities > learned from one of his > living (prior to being rehablitated) victims. > > But to answer your question, yeah, I've got a pretty > good idea of what the > truth is. Anytime you'd like to deal with it, be my > guest. > > We can start nice and easy, maybe with simple stuff > like, where you live, > with whom, how you came to meet them, stuff like > that. I'm sure it would > interest many people to know you live with a > client's daughter. Why not > treat them to the full monty? > === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by Ai Loan Nguyen-Kropp ] From forens-owner Tue Aug 26 21:48:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7R1mqUQ025254 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:48:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:48:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 01:48:46.0352 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A7E0900:01C36C3D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn: Sorry to disappoint, but I've yet to work out a price to purchase my doctorate from your alma mater just yet. Are you that confident I'll come up to their price or that they'll come down to mine? Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:16 AM Subject: [forens] forwarded message > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Lynn Coceani" > To: > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:58:31 +1000 > > Well, I'll be stuffed - it's the great Dr Shaun! The forensic proctologist > aka water treatment person! The things that crawl out from under rocks to > sling mud at people amaze me and don't bother starting on me again because > you know I can outdo you on a bad day! > > You're full of it, Wheeler! Now get off! > > > You know who this is! > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 00:14:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7R4EkaJ027336 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [forens] Now its Lynn and Shaun To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.07a May 14, 2001 Message-ID: From: CBecnel@dps.state.la.us Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:16:08 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on mail02/SVR/DPS/LAGOV(Release 6.0.2CF2|July 23, 2003) at 08/26/2003 11:16:09 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn and Shaun: Do either of you realize you sound like fighting siblings? I'm embarrassed for both of you! Please keep it off the list --- This is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Adam |---------+-----------------------------> | | "shaun wheeler" | | | | | | Sent by: | | | owner-forens@statg| | | en.ncsu.edu | | | | | | | | | 08/26/2003 08:48 | | | PM | | | Please respond to | | | forens | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: | | cc: | | Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Lynn: Sorry to disappoint, but I've yet to work out a price to purchase my doctorate from your alma mater just yet. Are you that confident I'll come up to their price or that they'll come down to mine? Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:16 AM Subject: [forens] forwarded message > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Lynn Coceani" > To: > Subject: Re: [forens] Mr Turvey > Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:58:31 +1000 > > Well, I'll be stuffed - it's the great Dr Shaun! The forensic proctologist > aka water treatment person! The things that crawl out from under rocks to > sling mud at people amaze me and don't bother starting on me again because > you know I can outdo you on a bad day! > > You're full of it, Wheeler! Now get off! > > > You know who this is! > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] [EndPost by CBecnel@dps.state.la.us] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 00:23:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7R4NBl0027686 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:23:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:23:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 04:23:05.0675 (UTC) FILETIME=[E97A99B0:01C36C52] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Kristin: With all due respect, I must disagree. In May of this year, I questioned Turvey's original posting concerning Richard Walter. I was candid with respect to the nature of my relationship with Richard as well as my regard for him. I acknowledged that I would presume the role of an apologist where the record is concerned. I then proceeded to research the truth of the matter, first contacting the prosecuting attorney in the case and then obtaining the abtracts from it. I challenged Mr. Turvey to cite his source. As an academic and as an author I feel confident he would prefer to avoid a charge of plagiarism, a charge levied at him before by other, published and well respected authors. He has yet to provide a citation for who the author is or what the publication was it was found in. I found copies of the article in no less than three other forums posted by other individuals, again, without citation. The foundation of the 2d Circuit's opinion was fairly easy to identify and I felt that Brent could have been more candid on a professional basis than he has been. For example, the Circuit found that the "late notice" given concerning Richard's testimony was indicative of some sort of chicanery. Indeed, during the evidentiary hearings barely a month ago, the Appellant raised the issue as proof of fraud, on which Turvey now rests an article he has published. Turvey has testified at two trials, Wisconsin v. Peter Kupaza and Alex Dale Thomas with less than one day notice to the prosecution, a fact I pointed out in my post back in May. If late notice of a surprise witness is suggestive of fraud on Richard's part, as the 2d Circuit opines and Turvey cites, I don't think the corollary I'm bringing to bear is unreasonably harsh. Another issue raised was the term "sexual picquerism". The 2d Circuit opined that the term could not be found in "any professional publication" nor had any credible professional be found, either in the 1980s or now, who was familiar with the term. They continued, saying the term could only be found in paperback books "of the true crime genre". While I can forgive and perhaps even understand the 2d Circuit's marked ignorance in an area they have perhaps very little training in, it is unforgivable that Turvey could have read this opinion, cited it as authority and proof of Richard's alleged perjury, and failed to take notice of such a gross error of fact. The term sexual picquerism can be found in "Psychopathia Sexualis", published more than a hundred and seventeen years ago by Richard Krafft-Ebing. While the book has lost some of it's charm in the time that has passed since, it still documents that the term does exist in the lexicon of sexual homicide. To move to a more troubling question, the term is also used and lavishly illustrated in the epoch tome, "Practical Homicide" authored by no less an authority than Vernon Geberth. Though it's not my intent to debate the merit of either publication, I think most credible professionals (or for that matter less than credible professionals) would agree that neither of these are true crime books. Turvey has taken liberally from Geberth's publication in the creation of his website, so much so that I daresay a third party would almost certainly reach the same conclusion. What is even more troubling is that Turvey requires the purchase of this book in order to take some of his courses. Having laid a proper foundation for the question, I believe it is appropriate to ask how it is that Turvey overlooked the court's misapprehension of the facts where: The term does quite clearly exist The term has a historical background dating more than a century, well in advance of the Robie Drake trial The term is used by credible professionals with extensive backgrounds in sexual homicide investigations The term is clearly being published in academically reviewed and acclaimed publications that enjoy wide use and acceptance Sadly, Brent would rather attack me than simply answer the question as to how he could have overlooked such an obvious faux pas by the court. Among the other questions I raised was how Brent could support an allegation of fraud or perjury based on the 2d Circuit's opinion, when weighed against the recommendation Richard enjoyed by Dr. Lowell Levine. As I pointed out three months ago, Levine has a good reputation within his community, among his peers, and professionally. Kristin, you tell me: What do you think Turvey's intentions were when he posted the article maligning Richard Walter in May of this year? That article was posted to this list. I will presume that he intended for people to read it. I doubt that he ever intended to discuss it. What then is the purpose of posting something like that to this forum? When Turvey posted the article about forensic fraud yesterday, did he believe he was immune to the same kinds of questions about his conduct as he raised against others? If only to yourself, ask those questions. I was shocked, to read that Turvey had billed himself as an investigator to George Baggen four years ago. Turvey had, by his own admission, never been to a crime scene in his entire career. He said this in sworn testimony and repeated it in two depositions. Kristin, how many "well known" investigators do you know that are accepting work on sexual assault/homicides that have never been to a crime scene before and have testified to that fact under oath? Had somebody objected to the articles, either the one in May or the one posted by Turvey yesterday, in a timely and relevant manner, I'd try to see my way clear of it. Nobody said a word about the article. If it will make everybody happy, I'll create an organization. I'll fill it with people who see things my way and never disagree. Hell, I might even try to get some people with credible professional experience just to make it look legitimate. Then, without fanfare or hoopla, I'll post ad hominem identical to what I said yesterday. The only thing I ask is the same kind of deafening silence when I do it. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable, do you? While I appreciate and respect your objections, again I have to bring a bit of focus on what transpired before I said anything. As I've said before, I don't mind providing documents, names or references to back up what I have stated as fact. Until Mr. Turvey can do as much I suggest he confine his interests to his continuing lawsuit against the City and Borough of Sitka (copy of complaint available). Shaun Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:46 AM Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler > Dear list members, > > I have never responded to this list, and quit frankly am not sure why I even > belong to this list after reading the last few exchanges of mud slinging > between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. > snip [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 00:41:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7R4fMVO028338 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:41:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Now its Lynn and Shaun Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:41:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 04:41:16.0427 (UTC) FILETIME=[739E25B0:01C36C55] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Adam: Before becoming a forensic proctologist I had to meet several requirements - 1. No sense of pride 2. Absolutely no dignity 3. No sense of smell While I'll admit that at least one of Brent's allegations are true, and I falsely presented that I had no sense of smell with all it's malodorous consequences, I still insist "Two Outta Three Ain't Bad". Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [forens] Now its Lynn and Shaun > > > > > Lynn and Shaun: > > Do either of you realize you sound like fighting siblings? I'm embarrassed > for both of you! > > Please keep it off the list --- This is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Adam > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 08:30:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RCUGid006476 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:30:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "dnippes" To: Subject: UV use in 1962 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:18:38 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c36c17$9e3ea8a0$6e00a8c0@IRRCL.local> In case this thread is not dead, in my 1953 edition of Paul Kirk's Crime Investigation, in Ch 42, General Examination of Stains, there is a section on UV light examinations of stains. He gives a rather succinct description of stain fluorescence for semen, urine and perspiration, as well as some interfering non-biologicals like grease and oils. Also, to actually answer the question, in Ch 6, Collection of Physical Evidence, he refers to using a portable ultraviolet lamp at crime scenes to search for blood, semen, urine or other physiological residues on substrates such as rugs, carpets, woodwork, bedding, etc. So, given the stature of Kirk, I'll bet numerous crime scene investigators would have followed his writings. Dan Nippes Indian River Crime Lab Fort Pierce, Florida -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Staggs Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:43 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Re: Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime scenes in 1962? ---Steve [EndPost by Steven Staggs ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 08:41:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RCfCeK007103 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:40:59 -0400 From: TTHOM2@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <5C95980D.218748AA.0004FB0A@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 205.172.13.87 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Mr. Wheeler, I have read many responses on this list and although I have not responded to this list before, I do recognize and/ or know many who do post and their qualifications. Unfortunately, I do not know your qualifications and with all that has been posted as of late I think it would be interesting to hear your qualifications. Sincerely, -- Tracey Thompson [EndPost by TTHOM2@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 10:23:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RENYDd010235 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20030827142327.53326.qmail@web41010.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:23:27 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lentini Subject: [forens] Chis: Turn them off--Everyone else ignore them To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu, cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I am a moderator of two mailing lists. My list software has the possibility of ubsubscribing members who are offensive to the rest. It keeps other members' mailboxes from filling up with spew. Even though this is an "unmoderated" list (and should be) the moderator still has the ability to remove people who can't play nice. I have not been opening any mail from either Turvey or Wheeler. In my view, they have nothing constructive to say. They hate each other. We know that. If nobody opens mail these guys send, they will stop, because what they want is attention. As long as anyone responds, they will continue (I know this constitutes a response--I am only doing this because the situation is getting out of hand again) ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 [EndPost by John Lentini ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 10:41:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7REfTGF011214 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Aldridge, Michael" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] Chis: Turn them off--Everyone else ignore them Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:41:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Ageeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: John Lentini [mailto:johnlentini@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:23 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Chis: Turn them off--Everyone else ignore them I am a moderator of two mailing lists. My list software has the possibility of ubsubscribing members who are offensive to the rest. It keeps other members' mailboxes from filling up with spew. Even though this is an "unmoderated" list (and should be) the moderator still has the ability to remove people who can't play nice. I have not been opening any mail from either Turvey or Wheeler. In my view, they have nothing constructive to say. They hate each other. We know that. If nobody opens mail these guys send, they will stop, because what they want is attention. As long as anyone responds, they will continue (I know this constitutes a response--I am only doing this because the situation is getting out of hand again) ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 [EndPost by John Lentini ] [EndPost by "Aldridge, Michael" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 12:32:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RGWXpT014911 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9A760AEE164ED71190D00002A542BB63011BA3F2@icex2.cc.ic.ac.uk> From: "Zekveld, Cornelia" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: [forens] any room for statisticians? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:32:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear list members I'd like some advice - I'm a medical statistician, also currently doing a part-time MSc in med stats. I'm really interested in forensics and 3-4 years ago I actually applied for a job in the field, but of course without success. I know I completely have the wrong qualifications to become a forensic scientist - but nevertheless I would like to work in this field (forensics/criminal justice?). I'd like some feedback as to whether it is possible to be a statistician in this field or is there not a lot of such opportunities? If yes, what sort of statistical analyses are mainly used and could anyone give me some references of such textbooks? Many thanks in advance Regards, Cornelia [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 12:54:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RGs27u015648 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:53:56 -0400 Subject: [forens] interesting old crime Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "E.J. Wagner" To: Forens From: "E. J. Wagner" Message-Id: <0BE3887F-D8AF-11D7-9F0F-00039394EE7A@worldnet.att.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear List- Managed to update my website (URL below). It includes an unusual old crime -find it under "what's new". EJ - - - - See EJ's Web site at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ (also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) - updated 26-July-2003 [EndPost by "E. J. Wagner" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 14:51:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RIp9tZ020101 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:51:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Turvey" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:51:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Kristin; Thanks for writing in on this. Over the years I've allowed Mr. Wheeler to make numerous (more than 100) posts to this list that have been unanswered. He uses it as a political tool; and because it helps hm perpetuate the false pretense he presents of being a member of the forensic community. He is my stalker in the classic sense; has been for years. As a professional, I know that I must ignore stalkers, but the problem is that the people on this list are not always the most critical thinkers. We are a community that embraces gossip and innuendo, within which there is much backstabbing and rivalry. So every once in a while, I am compelled to respond. But do take note that the majority of my posts to this list are not about Shaun Wheeler and his obsession with me and the West Memphis case. Thanks for listening, Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:47 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Dear list members, I have never responded to this list, and quit frankly am not sure why I even belong to this list after reading the last few exchanges of mud slinging between Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler. I have on the rare occasion found this list to be very helpful and sometimes amusing with information and questions that have been posted. I also think that there are a lot of folks out there who are very helpful and genuinely interested in this list being a "Forensic" list. However, Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler airing there grievances with each other on this list is both pathetic and extremely unprofessional and quit frankly if I were in a "Forensic" situation where I heard either of their names come up, I'm not sure if I would be laughing or crying, but I would definitely be running in the opposite direction. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Turvey or Mr. Wheeler nor do I know how others on this list feel about them and really I don't care, but I do think that it would be very nice if both of these gentlemen could be kind enough to keep the exchange of Turvey bashing and Wheeler bashing between themselves, leaving the "forensic" list out of it. Kristin Walti - [EndPost by Kristin.Walti@state.sd.us] [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 16:05:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RK5PQ7022998 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:05:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Lough, Patricia" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: UV use for semen in 1945 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:59:13 -0700 Use of UV for detection of semen is in my text titled Modern Criminal Investigation, Harry Soderman and John J. O'Connell, Funk & Wagnalls, NY, Chapter 15, p. 239, 1945. There are prior editions of the text in 1935 and 1940. Pattie Lough San Diego PD -----Original Message----- From: Christopher J. Basten [mailto:cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:30 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "dnippes" To: Subject: UV use in 1962 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:18:38 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c36c17$9e3ea8a0$6e00a8c0@IRRCL.local> In case this thread is not dead, in my 1953 edition of Paul Kirk's Crime Investigation, in Ch 42, General Examination of Stains, there is a section on UV light examinations of stains. He gives a rather succinct description of stain fluorescence for semen, urine and perspiration, as well as some interfering non-biologicals like grease and oils. Also, to actually answer the question, in Ch 6, Collection of Physical Evidence, he refers to using a portable ultraviolet lamp at crime scenes to search for blood, semen, urine or other physiological residues on substrates such as rugs, carpets, woodwork, bedding, etc. So, given the stature of Kirk, I'll bet numerous crime scene investigators would have followed his writings. Dan Nippes Indian River Crime Lab Fort Pierce, Florida -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Staggs Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:43 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Re: Would anyone know if crime scene investigators would have used a black light, or some other tool, to look for semen stain in bedding at crime scenes in 1962? ---Steve [EndPost by Steven Staggs ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 16:05:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RK5vqL023034 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:05:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 16:27:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RKRZQd024507 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.11 July 24, 2002 Message-ID: From: "Jenny Smith" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:27:26 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GHQPROD/MSHP400(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 08/27/2003 03:27:28 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn, I saw what you saw on the CTS web site. It has to be a typo??? I have never seen anywhere a TLC method for paint comparisons. You notice they did not include PGC (like you would expect). Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Sent by: owner-forens@statg en.ncsu.edu 08/27/2003 03:05 PM Please respond to forens ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 17:20:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RLKD9j025843 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: WMorris400@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:19:56 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] any room for statisticians? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10577 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu statistics are important in sampling applications, interpretation of results, percent population within a determined result. Many of these issues have been, both correctly and incorrectly been addressed by "scientists" and by scientists. One thing you could do, is get into some statistical position, read the literature involving sampling, etc, do self-study. Then get involved in the forensic aspect of one of the issues you find interesting and develop your statistics for that question, try to publish the result. If peer reviewed and accepted, the work is published and you have a credential to your credit, with your education, you can try to enter forensic field as a consultant. If successful, your in forensics. Remember, forensics is basically the application of knowledge to judicial matters. As such, it is better to become knowledgeable in a specific arena and then enter forensics. Almost any field can become forensic if the need arises-- forensic accident reconstruction, forensic psychology, forensic computer science, etc. Wayne Morris Morris-Kopec Forensics, Inc. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by WMorris400@aol.com] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 17:51:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RLpPqI026497 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:50:38 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id h7RLpOhm026492 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I couldn't help but smile in amusement. I needed a break from Turvey v. Wheeler. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 >>> smithj@mshp.state.mo.us 08/27 1:27 PM >>> Lynn, I saw what you saw on the CTS web site. It has to be a typo??? I have never seen anywhere a TLC method for paint comparisons. You notice they did not include PGC (like you would expect). Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Sent by: owner-forens@statg en.ncsu.edu 08/27/2003 03:05 PM Please respond to forens ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Greg Laskowski" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 17:52:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RLqmuB026665 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Buckleton, John" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] any room for statisticians? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:52:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cornelia, "Room for statisticians" There are a few specialist statisticians in forensic science. The FSS in the UK has a group who are called "interpretation research". This is the best job in the world. There is also a group at Lausanne based around some fiercely bright scientists (Christophe Champod, Franco Taroni, Tacha Hicks and their great mentor Pierre Margot). The University of Edingpurgh has a schoot under Colin Aitken. The Dutch forensic science service has employed a specialist statistician Marjan Sjerps. In general Forensic Science has massively overemphasised data creation rather than careful experimental design and data processing and inference. Do not take these comments to mean that the experiments are unreliable per se but that I can often critique them for unusual choice of randomisation, variables, and blinding. In my view the SINGLE greatest need in forensic science is interpretation research. This area provides about 1/3 of our court challenges. The field is full of very talented experimenters what is desperately needed are interpretation specialists. Now the drawback is that few of them can do casework as well. Here are a few texts: Aitken, C. and F. Taroni (1996). "Interpretation of Scientific Evidence." Science and Justice 36(4): 290-292. Curran, J. M., T. N. Hicks, et al. (2000). Forensic Interpretation of Glass Evidence. London, CRC Press. Evett, I. W. and B. S. Weir (1998). Interpreting DNA Evidence - Statistical Genetics for Forensic Scientists. Sunderland, Sinauer Associates, Inc. Inman, K. and N. Rudin (2001). Principles and practice of criminalistics. The profession of forensic science. Boca Raton, CRC Press. Rudin, N. and K. Inman (1997). An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis. Boca Raton, CRC Press LLC. -----Original Message----- From: Zekveld, Cornelia [mailto:c.zekveld@imperial.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 4:32 AM To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: [forens] any room for statisticians? Dear list members I'd like some advice - I'm a medical statistician, also currently doing a part-time MSc in med stats. I'm really interested in forensics and 3-4 years ago I actually applied for a job in the field, but of course without success. I know I completely have the wrong qualifications to become a forensic scientist - but nevertheless I would like to work in this field (forensics/criminal justice?). I'd like some feedback as to whether it is possible to be a statistician in this field or is there not a lot of such opportunities? If yes, what sort of statistical analyses are mainly used and could anyone give me some references of such textbooks? Many thanks in advance Regards, Cornelia [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] [EndPost by "Buckleton, John" ] From forens-owner Wed Aug 27 18:14:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7RME8mk027595 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F4D2D2E.2953491B@forensicdna.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:14:08 -0700 From: Norah Rudin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] any room for statisticians? References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu John, Thank you for including us in your excellent list of texts. I would point Cornelia to the 2nd edition of Intro to DNA, published in 2002. Norah -- Norah Rudin, Ph.D. Forensic DNA Consultant norah@forensicdna.com http://www.forensicdna.com http://www.forensicdna.com/Bookstore/index.html Nature photos: http://www.norahrudin.com "Buckleton, John" wrote: Cornelia, "Room for statisticians" There are a few specialist statisticians in forensic science. The FSS in the UK has a group who are called "interpretation research". This is the best job in the world. There is also a group at Lausanne based around some fiercely bright scientists (Christophe Champod, Franco Taroni, Tacha Hicks and their great mentor Pierre Margot). The University of Edingpurgh has a schoot under Colin Aitken. The Dutch forensic science service has employed a specialist statistician Marjan Sjerps. In general Forensic Science has massively overemphasised data creation rather than careful experimental design and data processing and inference. Do not take these comments to mean that the experiments are unreliable per se but that I can often critique them for unusual choice of randomisation, variables, and blinding. In my view the SINGLE greatest need in forensic science is interpretation research. This area provides about 1/3 of our court challenges. The field is full of very talented experimenters what is desperately needed are interpretation specialists. Now the drawback is that few of them can do casework as well. Here are a few texts: Aitken, C. and F. Taroni (1996). "Interpretation of Scientific Evidence." Science and Justice 36(4): 290-292. Curran, J. M., T. N. Hicks, et al. (2000). Forensic Interpretation of Glass Evidence. London, CRC Press. Evett, I. W. and B. S. Weir (1998). Interpreting DNA Evidence - Statistical Genetics for Forensic Scientists. Sunderland, Sinauer Associates, Inc. Inman, K. and N. Rudin (2001). Principles and practice of criminalistics. The profession of forensic science. Boca Raton, CRC Press. Rudin, N. and K. Inman (1997). An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis. Boca Raton, CRC Press LLC. -----Original Message----- From: Zekveld, Cornelia [ mailto:c.zekveld@imperial.ac.uk ] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 4:32 AM To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: [forens] any room for statisticians? Dear list members I'd like some advice - I'm a medical statistician, also currently doing a part-time MSc in med stats. I'm really interested in forensics and 3-4 years ago I actually applied for a job in the field, but of course without success. I know I completely have the wrong qualifications to become a forensic scientist - but nevertheless I would like to work in this field (forensics/criminal justice?). I'd like some feedback as to whether it is possible to be a statistician in this field or is there not a lot of such opportunities? If yes, what sort of statistical analyses are mainly used and could anyone give me some references of such textbooks? Many thanks in advance Regards, Cornelia [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] [EndPost by "Buckleton, John" ] --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- [EndPost by Norah Rudin ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 00:00:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7S40NfL003102 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:59:04 -0400 From: Alan Izenman To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" cc: Alan Izenman Subject: RE: [forens] any room for statisticians? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear All, Statistics and the law have been good partners for a long time. If anyone is interested in using their statistics qualifications in litigation, there are many good people out there, in the U.S. and Europe, to talk to for more information. Every few years, there's an International Conference in Forensic Statistics. My guess is that very few of you in the forensic community are aware of this conference, which alternates between the U.S and European venues. Last year (2002), it was held in Venice, Italy. Previously, it has been held at the University of Edinburgh, Arizona State University, and Carolina State University. Take a look at the website http://icfs5.eco.unirome3.it/ The next one should be held in the U.S. There is also a new journal entitled "Law, Probability, and Risk," published by Oxford University Press. Check out the website http://www3.oup.co.uk/jnls/list/lawprj/ Some of you may be interested in subscribing to that journal. Those two websites should give you an idea of what forensic statisticians do. Many excellent books have been written on statistics and the law. If anyone is interested, I can give them a brief list of books and articles. Alan J. Izenman Professor of Statistics Department of Statistics Temple University Philadelphia, PA On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Buckleton, John wrote: > Cornelia, "Room for statisticians" > > There are a few specialist statisticians in forensic science. The FSS in > the UK has a group who are called "interpretation research". This is the > best job in the world. There is also a group at Lausanne based around some > fiercely bright scientists (Christophe Champod, Franco Taroni, Tacha Hicks > and their great mentor Pierre Margot). The University of Edingpurgh has a > schoot under Colin Aitken. The Dutch forensic science service has employed > a specialist statistician Marjan Sjerps. > > In general Forensic Science has massively overemphasised data creation > rather than careful experimental design and data processing and inference. > Do not take these comments to mean that the experiments are unreliable per > se but that I can often critique them for unusual choice of randomisation, > variables, and blinding. > > In my view the SINGLE greatest need in forensic science is interpretation > research. This area provides about 1/3 of our court challenges. The field > is full of very talented experimenters what is desperately needed are > interpretation specialists. Now the drawback is that few of them can do > casework as well. > > Here are a few texts: > > Aitken, C. and F. Taroni (1996). "Interpretation of Scientific Evidence." > Science and Justice 36(4): 290-292. > Curran, J. M., T. N. Hicks, et al. (2000). Forensic Interpretation of Glass > Evidence. London, CRC Press. > Evett, I. W. and B. S. Weir (1998). Interpreting DNA Evidence - Statistical > Genetics for Forensic Scientists. Sunderland, Sinauer Associates, Inc. > Inman, K. and N. Rudin (2001). Principles and practice of criminalistics. > The profession of forensic science. Boca Raton, CRC Press. > Rudin, N. and K. Inman (1997). An Introduction to Forensic DNA Analysis. > Boca Raton, CRC Press LLC. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Zekveld, Cornelia [mailto:c.zekveld@imperial.ac.uk] > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 4:32 AM > To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' > Subject: [forens] any room for statisticians? > > > Dear list members > > > I'd like some advice - I'm a medical statistician, also currently doing a > part-time MSc in med stats. I'm really interested in forensics and 3-4 > years ago I actually applied for a job in the field, but of course without > success. I know I completely have the wrong qualifications to become a > forensic scientist - but nevertheless I would like to work in this field > (forensics/criminal justice?). > > I'd like some feedback as to whether it is possible to be a statistician in > this field or is there not a lot of such opportunities? > > If yes, what sort of statistical analyses are mainly used and could anyone > give me some references of such textbooks? > > Many thanks in advance > > > Regards, > Cornelia > > > [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] > [EndPost by "Buckleton, John" ] > [EndPost by Alan Izenman ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 01:04:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7S54ESn004235 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:04:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [66.61.75.204] X-Originating-Email: [shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] From: "shaun wheeler" To: References: Subject: Re: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:04:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 05:04:08.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF976620:01C36D21] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Brent: My posts and questions to you yesterday mentioned three cases directly and a fourth indirectly - Wisconsin v. Peter Kupaza California v. Alex Dale Thomas Robie Drake (Portamundo v. Drake - New York) Jessica Baggen (Sitka, Alaska, unsolved) None of my questions nor any of these cases has anything to do with West Memphis. If you prefer to confine your answers to these cases and/or your article, that would be fine with me. It does appear that as recently as a few days ago another list member did, in fact, ask you about that case. Your reply, as I recall, was that they were also had some sort of political motive or were hostile to you and suggested that they look up your "testimony which is a matter of public record" rather than simply answering their questions. This does not seem to be a wise choice for you in light of the things that turn up in the public record. Observe some of the following links found on a typical search engine: http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/012302/sta_stikapolice.shtml http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/013002/sta_sitkacops.shtml http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/012702/ala_012702ala0050001.shtml http://www.corpus-delicti.com/Sitka_sentinel_080800.htm http://www.profiling.org/abp_officials.html http://www.cityofsitka.com/asmbly/minutes/05-05-03boa.PDF In the space of only twenty or thirty minutes I feel confident that an individual with fairly average means and a modest amount of logic could learn that you and a co-founder of ABP were terminated from the same police department less than a year apart. They could learn that you lodged serious allegations of obstruction, police misconduct and conspiracy and instigated not just one, but two investigations of that department. They could learn that you filed suit against the elected and statutory employees of that city. "My report is a matter of public record and so is my testimony," so says your reply in a post to this list on August 25th, barely two days ago now. With an invitation like that you can hardly complain when somebody follows up on it. In light of the many new friends you seem to have made in Sitka, why should it surprise you that when you file suit against a dozen or so of them that they take a little more interest in your history? Finally if the time comes that you feel prepared to address the articles you post to this list, I will be delighted to turn all attention to them. You cannot exempt yourself from the same criticisms on the same grounds, particularly in light of your willingness to do so in as public a forum as this is. Shaun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Turvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 1:51 PM Subject: RE: [forens] Mr. Turvey and Mr. Wheeler > Kristin; > > Thanks for writing in on this. Over the years I've allowed Mr. Wheeler to > make numerous (more than 100) posts to this list that have been unanswered. SNIP > So every once in a while, I am compelled to respond. But do take note that > the majority of my posts to this list are not about Shaun Wheeler and his > obsession with me and the West Memphis case. > > [EndPost by "shaun wheeler" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 08:11:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SCB62B010533 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:11:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:12:20 -0400 Hey Jenny! I would think "Thin Layer Chromatography" as opposed to "Pyrolysis Gas Chromatography" would be a heck of a typo but..... I would think the preparer of the test would take note (red flag!) that none of the participating labs did a technique (TLC) used by the pre-distribution lab and maybe question their validation. A brief search of the literature; (SWGMAT docs, ASTM methods, or the Forensic Science Handbook) would reveal that PGC is a peer recognized technique and TLC is not. When 38% of the test participants use a technique (PGC) that the "validating" lab did not use, that would seem to be another red flag for the test provider. There are checks and balances available in the testing system but they don't seem to be used. It always reminds me of the lab that did stereomicroscopy and SEM on a fiber test and got the right answer. They "passed" their proficiency test without ever going near a comparison scope. Of course the chances of passing the test are 50/50. Maybe the "correct" answer, regardless of how you get it, is all that administrators and quality managers are looking for to pass ASCLD/LAB inspections. As an examiner who has to work the test, I'd like to see something that would truly indicate who is proficient and who is not. At least make sure the "validating" lab uses techniques accepted by the peer group. (But then, they don't have to face Daubert hearings for proficiency tests do they....) OK, that's my soap box for today. :-) Lynn Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Jenny Smith [mailto:smithj@mshp.state.mo.us] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:27 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Lynn, I saw what you saw on the CTS web site. It has to be a typo??? I have never seen anywhere a TLC method for paint comparisons. You notice they did not include PGC (like you would expect). Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Sent by: owner-forens@statg en.ncsu.edu 08/27/2003 03:05 PM Please respond to forens ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 08:28:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SCSpaK011437 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <3e.342af6d6.2c7f4f6f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:28:31 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Well said, Lynn. I'm interested in who prepared the sample: CTS, NFSTC, who? Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 08:52:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SCqGxl012135 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "French, Tim" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:52:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Lynn, I think you really hit the nail on the head there when you said "Maybe the "correct" answer, regardless of how you get it, is all that administrators and quality managers are looking for to pass ASCLD/LAB inspections. As an examiner who has to work the test, I'd like to see something that would truly indicate who is proficient and who is not.". I think the term "proficiency" is inaccurate; these tests are more of a yearly exam for the analyst. A truly "proficient" examiner will conduct the fewest proper examinations to yield the correct result with the least amount of extraneous work. There are people however, who feel that a proficiency test means that the analyst is required to run every test that the lab has available. Tim French Criminalist II CMPD Crime Laboratory 704-336-7750 -----Original Message----- From: Christopher J. Basten [mailto:cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:11 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:12:20 -0400 Hey Jenny! I would think "Thin Layer Chromatography" as opposed to "Pyrolysis Gas Chromatography" would be a heck of a typo but..... I would think the preparer of the test would take note (red flag!) that none of the participating labs did a technique (TLC) used by the pre-distribution lab and maybe question their validation. A brief search of the literature; (SWGMAT docs, ASTM methods, or the Forensic Science Handbook) would reveal that PGC is a peer recognized technique and TLC is not. When 38% of the test participants use a technique (PGC) that the "validating" lab did not use, that would seem to be another red flag for the test provider. There are checks and balances available in the testing system but they don't seem to be used. It always reminds me of the lab that did stereomicroscopy and SEM on a fiber test and got the right answer. They "passed" their proficiency test without ever going near a comparison scope. Of course the chances of passing the test are 50/50. Maybe the "correct" answer, regardless of how you get it, is all that administrators and quality managers are looking for to pass ASCLD/LAB inspections. As an examiner who has to work the test, I'd like to see something that would truly indicate who is proficient and who is not. At least make sure the "validating" lab uses techniques accepted by the peer group. (But then, they don't have to face Daubert hearings for proficiency tests do they....) OK, that's my soap box for today. :-) Lynn Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Jenny Smith [mailto:smithj@mshp.state.mo.us] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:27 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Lynn, I saw what you saw on the CTS web site. It has to be a typo??? I have never seen anywhere a TLC method for paint comparisons. You notice they did not include PGC (like you would expect). Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Sent by: owner-forens@statg en.ncsu.edu 08/27/2003 03:05 PM Please respond to forens ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "French, Tim" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 12:21:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SGL8ki020169 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9A760AEE164ED71190D00002A542BB63011BA3FA@icex2.cc.ic.ac.uk> From: "Zekveld, Cornelia" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: [forens] Thanks Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:20:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear members, I would like to thank everyone that replied to my e-mail regarding statistics in forensics. It is much appreciated and you've all given me valuable leads and I will definitely make use of them. Kind regards, Cornelia [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 13:30:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SHUdWJ022392 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:30:39 -0400 (EDT) From: LeonStein@aol.com Message-ID: <1cc.fe8f735.2c7f962f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:30:23 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu CC: wjt@nfstc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 8/28/2003 8:32:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SkipnCar@aol.com writes: Well said, Lynn. I'm interested in who prepared the sample: CTS, NFSTC, who? Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Carla: The NFSTC is not in the proficiency testing field. Lynn: Have you contacted CTS to determine the accuracy of the report listing TLC rather than PGC? David David Epstein Director of Scientific Operations NFSTC 7881 114th Ave. Largo, FL 33773 dme@nfstc.org www.nfstc.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LeonStein@aol.com] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 13:54:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SHsDmw023261 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:54:06 -0400 Subject: [forens] grave robbing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "E.J. Wagner" To: Forens From: "E. J. Wagner" Message-Id: <9E7DFFB0-D980-11D7-97F5-00039394EE7A@worldnet.att.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Dear List I have a copy of a paper entitled "Grave Robbing In New England" by Frederick C. Waite. The cover sheet is missing, so I can't determine the publisher or date. I belive the source is the New England Journal of Medicine, and the date sonewhere in the 1940's. Has anyone information? Thanks EJ - - - - See EJ's Web site at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ (also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) - updated 26-July-2003 [EndPost by "E. J. Wagner" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 15:30:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SJUrFO026437 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:34:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain It's CTS paint 03-545. The report is at: (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) -----Original Message----- From: SkipnCar@aol.com [mailto:SkipnCar@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:29 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Well said, Lynn. I'm interested in who prepared the sample: CTS, NFSTC, who? Carla Carla M. Noziglia, MS, FAAFS Forensic Scientist 8513 Northwest 47 Street Coral Springs, FL 33067 954-796-8063, telephone & fax skipncar@aol.com Live Well Laugh Often Love Much --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by SkipnCar@aol.com] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 18:47:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SMlRZk000698 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:47:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] grave robbing Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:49:05 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000001c36db6$95d02ef0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <9E7DFFB0-D980-11D7-97F5-00039394EE7A@worldnet.att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 22:47:25.0765 (UTC) FILETIME=[59FBB750:01C36DB6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu FC Waite, Grave Robbing in New England, Bulletin of the Medical Library Association, 33(1945), pp. 272-94 Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of E. J. Wagner Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:54 PM To: Forens Cc: E.J. Wagner Subject: [forens] grave robbing Dear List I have a copy of a paper entitled "Grave Robbing In New England" by Frederick C. Waite. The cover sheet is missing, so I can't determine the publisher or date. I belive the source is the New England Journal of Medicine, and the date sonewhere in the 1940's. Has anyone information? Thanks EJ - - - - See EJ's Web site at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ (also, mirrored at http://home.att.net/~ejwagner/ ) - updated 26-July-2003 [EndPost by "E. J. Wagner" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 18:48:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SMmEWa000756 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:48:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Keyword Search by Keyword on Court Cases Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:49:52 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000101c36db6$b163d090$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030822133823.52938.qmail@web80706.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 22:48:12.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[758F58F0:01C36DB6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Try findlaw.com, lawguru.com, and nexus-lexus.com. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Forensic lawLab Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:38 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] Forensic Keyword Search by Keyword on Court Cases What are different ways (paid services, online tools, free self search etc. ) I can use to search all nationwide court cases by specific keywords with respect to inside details in a case (testimony details , forensic evidence etc.). e.g. keyword such as "RFLP" , "TLC", "microdiffusion" and so on. Thanks __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com [EndPost by Forensic lawLab ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 18:49:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SMnf8w001089 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:49:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] any room for statisticians? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:51:20 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000201c36db6$e5af1d00$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <9A760AEE164ED71190D00002A542BB63011BA3F2@icex2.cc.ic.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 22:49:39.0765 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9DA7E50:01C36DB6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cornelia, You might be able to find a position in a large state forensic lab system, in the DNA databanking program, helping to establish and refine frequency estimates for genetic profiles among various subpopulations. Instead of determining the profiles yourself (which requires a background in genetics), you'd be helping crunch the numbers that forensic biologists rely on when drawing conclusions regarding such profiles found in casework. Another possibility is a position as part of the management support team (e.g., in the QA/QC department) in a large lab system. Other than these, I can't think of any other applicable positions within forensic laboratories. Of course, there are many positions suitable for statisticians within the larger criminal justice field. Judicial systems, criminal justice agencies, and just about any other kind of bureaucratic institution will have a need for statisticians to produce demographic and other kinds of statistical reports. A large part of criminology (i.e., sociology and psychology applied to the study of crime) involves gathering and analyzing crime data to identify trends. This has nothing to do with forensic science, but is useful work in its own right. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Zekveld, Cornelia Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:32 PM To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: [forens] any room for statisticians? Dear list members I'd like some advice - I'm a medical statistician, also currently doing a part-time MSc in med stats. I'm really interested in forensics and 3-4 years ago I actually applied for a job in the field, but of course without success. I know I completely have the wrong qualifications to become a forensic scientist - but nevertheless I would like to work in this field (forensics/criminal justice?). I'd like some feedback as to whether it is possible to be a statistician in this field or is there not a lot of such opportunities? If yes, what sort of statistical analyses are mainly used and could anyone give me some references of such textbooks? Many thanks in advance Regards, Cornelia [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 18:51:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SMpbBF001497 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:53:16 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000301c36db7$2b4cebd0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 22:51:36.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF784D20:01C36DB6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu It certainly does make you wonder. The other exams done by the reference labs should have ensured that the samples are what CTS says they are (i.e., are correctly characterized), but why not one of the ref labs used PyGC is very puzzling, especially since 38% of the participants used this method and none used TLC. The testing methodologies of the reference labs should ideally reflect the major methods being used by participating labs, and clearly PyGC is commonly used in the field, while TLC is not. Perhaps we should be asking CTS these questions. Also, who ARE the reference labs, anyway, and why are they anonymous in the report? Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher J. Basten Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:06 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Thu Aug 28 18:53:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7SMrGlN001809 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:53:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:54:49 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000401c36db7$634d29f0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 22:53:10.0515 (UTC) FILETIME=[27786430:01C36DB7] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu If management is allowing (much less requiring!) additional tests to be done that would not be done in a routine case sample, that defeats the purpose of a "proficiency test," which is to test the proficiency of a person in analyzing routine case samples using their habitual routine procedures. A PT sample should be examined in exactly the same way that a similar case sample would be - no more and no less. "Open" PTs only work properly if this is the case. Ideally, blind PTs would be better in that they avoid this problem (analysts would think the PT samples ARE routine case samples), but the problems of administering blind PTs (amply detailed in past debates on this list) seem insurmountable. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of French, Tim Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:52 AM To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Lynn, I think you really hit the nail on the head there when you said "Maybe the "correct" answer, regardless of how you get it, is all that administrators and quality managers are looking for to pass ASCLD/LAB inspections. As an examiner who has to work the test, I'd like to see something that would truly indicate who is proficient and who is not.". I think the term "proficiency" is inaccurate; these tests are more of a yearly exam for the analyst. A truly "proficient" examiner will conduct the fewest proper examinations to yield the correct result with the least amount of extraneous work. There are people however, who feel that a proficiency test means that the analyst is required to run every test that the lab has available. Tim French Criminalist II CMPD Crime Laboratory 704-336-7750 -----Original Message----- From: Christopher J. Basten [mailto:cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:11 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: [forens] forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Subject: RE: [forens] forwarded message Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:12:20 -0400 Hey Jenny! I would think "Thin Layer Chromatography" as opposed to "Pyrolysis Gas Chromatography" would be a heck of a typo but..... I would think the preparer of the test would take note (red flag!) that none of the participating labs did a technique (TLC) used by the pre-distribution lab and maybe question their validation. A brief search of the literature; (SWGMAT docs, ASTM methods, or the Forensic Science Handbook) would reveal that PGC is a peer recognized technique and TLC is not. When 38% of the test participants use a technique (PGC) that the "validating" lab did not use, that would seem to be another red flag for the test provider. There are checks and balances available in the testing system but they don't seem to be used. It always reminds me of the lab that did stereomicroscopy and SEM on a fiber test and got the right answer. They "passed" their proficiency test without ever going near a comparison scope. Of course the chances of passing the test are 50/50. Maybe the "correct" answer, regardless of how you get it, is all that administrators and quality managers are looking for to pass ASCLD/LAB inspections. As an examiner who has to work the test, I'd like to see something that would truly indicate who is proficient and who is not. At least make sure the "validating" lab uses techniques accepted by the peer group. (But then, they don't have to face Daubert hearings for proficiency tests do they....) OK, that's my soap box for today. :-) Lynn Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Jenny Smith [mailto:smithj@mshp.state.mo.us] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:27 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message Lynn, I saw what you saw on the CTS web site. It has to be a typo??? I have never seen anywhere a TLC method for paint comparisons. You notice they did not include PGC (like you would expect). Jenny Smith, Criminalist III Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab 1510 East Elm Street Jefferson City, MO 65101 ph: 573-526-6134 ex 282 "Christopher J. Basten" To: Subject: [forens] forwarded message Sent by: owner-forens@statg en.ncsu.edu 08/27/2003 03:05 PM Please respond to forens ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Henson, Lynn" To: "'Forens-l'" Subject: CTS Paint test Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:57:09 -0400 Can anyone explain to me why the predistribution test laboratories for the CTS paint 03-545 did TLC and not PGC on these samples? Not one of the 127 participants did TLC. I haven't seen TLC mentioned in the SWGMAT or ASTM paint documents. Did I (and 48 other labs) miss a time warp where PGC lost its potential as a discriminating technique for paints? (www.collaborativetesting.com/forensics/forensics_trace.html ) Really makes me wonder about the quality of our quality assurance testing. Lynn Henson US Army Crime Laboratory Trace Evidence Division 4553 N 2ND Street Forest Park, GA 30297-5122 404-469-7265 DSN 797-7265 Lynn.Henson@usacil.army.mil --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "Jenny Smith" ] [EndPost by "Christopher J. Basten" ] [EndPost by "French, Tim" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 29 05:14:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7T9E5dU011056 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:14:05 -0400 (EDT) From: LamarM@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:13:49 EDT Subject: Re: [forens] forwarded message To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu In a message dated 8/28/2003 3:32:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cbasten@statgen.ncsu.edu writes: I'm interested in who prepared the sample: CTS, NFSTC, who? Carla Carla-The questioned document samples for Collaborative Testing Service are designed by a well qualified forensic document examiner. The samples are prepared by CTS but the design and pre testing is conducted by document examiners. I have found CTS to be responsive to the concerns of our community. Regards, Lamar Miller Forensic Document Examiner, Retired Little Torch Key, Florida --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by LamarM@aol.com] From forens-owner Fri Aug 29 08:09:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7TC9RLA013275 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:09:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Forrest" To: Subject: RE: [forens] any room for statisticians? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:08:27 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <9A760AEE164ED71190D00002A542BB63011BA3F2@icex2.cc.ic.ac.uk> X-Sophie-Scan: Yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Colin Aitken in Edinburgh might be able to help; he is the doyen of UK forensic statisticians AITKEN, Colin +44(0)131 6504877 C.G.G.Aitken@ed.ac.uk A R W Forrest LLM, FRCP, FRCPath, CChem, FRSC Professor of Forensic Toxicology Medico-legal Centre Watery Street SHEFFIELD S3 7ES UK -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Zekveld, Cornelia Sent: 27 August 2003 09:32 To: 'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu' Subject: [forens] any room for statisticians? Dear list members I'd like some advice - I'm a medical statistician, also currently doing a part-time MSc in med stats. I'm really interested in forensics and 3-4 years ago I actually applied for a job in the field, but of course without success. I know I completely have the wrong qualifications to become a forensic scientist - but nevertheless I would like to work in this field (forensics/criminal justice?). I'd like some feedback as to whether it is possible to be a statistician in this field or is there not a lot of such opportunities? If yes, what sort of statistical analyses are mainly used and could anyone give me some references of such textbooks? Many thanks in advance Regards, Cornelia [EndPost by "Zekveld, Cornelia" ] [EndPost by "Robert Forrest" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 29 19:19:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7TNJ5jV003307 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:19:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:20:45 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000801c36e84$2c7ddb90$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 23:19:04.0468 (UTC) FILETIME=[F01C8D40:01C36E83] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu I agree Brent - definitely the wrong lesson. You should check out some other forensic science discussion lists that have long debated the "quality" of TV's depiction of forensic science, as I think the discussions there have been more extensive than on forens-L. The one that has had the most discussions is a Yahoo group called "forensic-science." It has over 2000 members, most of them laypersons, so the topic comes up often. Other Yahoo discussion groups that have had repeated discussions about these shows include "thecrimelab," (all one word) and "forensics." Go to groups.yahoo.com, type in the group name, and then search the archives. You may find it illuminating. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of Brent Turvey Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:14 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Bob; I always read your posts with interest and often delight. I of course recall your well argued disapproval of CSI and Co. That's why I felt somewhat inspired to give my own opinion and ask for others. I guess I have only seen and recall yours. So thanks for re-rendering it. Interestingly enough, I gave an interview with people magazine today regarding the Sandra Anderson case (see: http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html). They wanted to know whether or not she had a good public image prior to this, and whether or not I was suprised to hear of her recent indictment because of her past accomplishments. They seemed to equate public image and the quasi-celebrity of forensic fame with integrity, competence and professional ability. When she testified in court, her resume consisted of newspaper clippings kept lovingly in a three ring binder, featuring many pictures of herself and her dog, Eagle. Additionally, I am often asked by reporters to recount the famous or sensational cases that I've worked as a means of introduction in a news piece. As though working on sensational or high profile cases is a distinguishing professional credential. And by implication, those who haven't aren't as notable. My point - Media attention and media presence does not equal skill, competence or reliability. But because of the media attention we (the forensic community) are getting, we are heading that way; media credentials as professional credentials. That's sad because the people whose work I respect in this field, whose work has taught me the most, are names I rarely read in print(Thornton, Chisum, Cwiklik, etc...). It's certainly the wrong lesson for students. Brent -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Parsons Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:39 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: [forens] Forensic Shows Redux Say, Brent, you must not be paying much attention to this list. I (among many others) have been lambasting both CSI and those forensic science documentary shows on cable for their inaccuracies and oversimplifications ever since they first went on the air. In short, we all (or at least most of us) agree with your assessment. While they have raised awareness of and interest in forensic science among the general public, their inattention to detail and unconcern for accuracy is legendary. I firmly feel these shows do more harm than good, and most I have discussed this with and/or who have posted opinions here and in other forensic science discussion lists I belong to hold these shows in similarly low esteem. It's bad enough that lawyers, judges, cops, and students have gained both mistaken impressions and unrealistic expectations of our field as a result, but the thing that really concerns me is the very real possibility that this misinformation is poisoning potential jury pools, affecting the thinking of jurors who might attempt to apply what they "learned" on TV to their deliberations in a real case. That's a truly scary thought. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL [EndPost by "Brent Turvey" ] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ] From forens-owner Fri Aug 29 19:24:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) id h7TNOg1L003664 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:24:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert Parsons" To: Subject: RE: [forens] any room for statisticians? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:26:18 -0400 Organization: Indian River Crime Laboratory Message-ID: <000901c36e84$f318c0d0$7300a8c0@IRRCL.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 23:24:37.0703 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6BC2D70:01C36E84] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Wayne offered some good points below, but if you're looking to beef up your credentials for a potential employer, I recommend studying under the instruction of bone fide experts in an accredited or otherwise recognized institution or formal training program. Self study is great, and should always remain part of your continuing education, but it's a poor basis for establishing expertise in a new area or application. Reputable employers and clients aren't going to place much stock in it, nor should they. The quality of self-study will always naturally be suspect, because there is no oversight by someone else who already possesses expertise in the subject area to ensure that your study plan isn't flawed, to test your understanding of the material, and to answer your questions. You could blissfully go along thinking you have mastered the material correctly when in fact you have not. I've seen this before in "self-taught" so-called "experts." To paraphrase the old attorney adage, "The person who acts as their own sole instructor has a fool for a student." Likewise, a research paper produced by someone with no formal training in the subject matter studied is likely to be flawed, but even if it is not, it will command less confidence than one produced by someone qualified to do the research to begin with. There is certainly a lot of flawed research that manages to get published, and yes, some of it even makes it into peer-reviewed publications. This field is rife with unqualified self-declared "experts." Don't become one of them. Anyone can hang up a sign and open a consulting business, or be appointed to a job position by a less-than fastidious employer - that doesn't mean they are competent and capable of delivering a good product. It's true that just about any field of study has a potential forensic application, but just being knowledgeable in a given field doesn't mean you have the requisite knowledge, skills, and abilities to correctly apply that field to forensic purposes. Once you enter the forensic arena, there's a whole other aspect involved for which you are unlikely to be properly prepared unless you have received instruction from someone qualified and experienced in the forensic arena. Even university professors have often gotten themselves into trouble by trying to venture into the forensic arena without having any prior forensic training or experience, only to find themselves tripped up by particulars in the proper forensic application of their field, particulars of which they were totally ignorant. As a result, despite their legitimate academic knowledge, an uninformed application of that knowledge caused them to reach an incorrect conclusion. They were in well over their heads without even realizing it. So beware of biting off more than you can chew by venturing into unknown waters without a guide. There lie monsters; namely the monsters of potential humiliation and (far worse) the possibility of contributing to a miscarriage of justice. The work forensic scientists do is too important, and the influence we can have on the outcome of cases too great, to trust in self-made "experts." My advice is to decide on a forensic application for your statistical skills that interests you, then find some formal training in that forensic application; or at least find a qualified expert already doing that work to mentor you. Somewhere along the way, you'll need to pick up some kind of formal credentials for that forensic application if you ever expect to be respected and taken seriously by bone fide forensic science experts. "I read some books and did some self-study" isn't going to cut it. Good luck! Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Indian River Crime Laboratory Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu] On Behalf Of WMorris400@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:20 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: [forens] any room for statisticians? statistics are important in sampling applications, interpretation of results, percent population within a determined result. Many of these issues have been, both correctly and incorrectly been addressed by "scientists" and by scientists. One thing you could do, is get into some statistical position, read the literature involving sampling, etc, do self-study. Then get involved in the forensic aspect of one of the issues you find interesting and develop your statistics for that question, try to publish the result. If peer reviewed and accepted, the work is published and you have a credential to your credit, with your education, you can try to enter forensic field as a consultant. If successful, your in forensics. Remember, forensics is basically the application of knowledge to judicial matters. As such, it is better to become knowledgeable in a specific arena and then enter forensics. Almost any field can become forensic if the need arises-- forensic accident reconstruction, forensic psychology, forensic computer science, etc. Wayne Morris Morris-Kopec Forensics, Inc. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- [EndPost by WMorris400@aol.com] [EndPost by "Robert Parsons" ]