From daemon Tue Apr 2 14:43:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g32JhXt03684 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g32JhUM03679 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (d4015.pppdel.vsnl.net.in [203.197.206.130]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CED40EAD for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:15:03 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CAA0821.AE5F5592@vsnl.net> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:06:01 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Herbicides Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2192 Dear List, I was reading about the mechanism of action of herbicides, and discovered that they have a wide variety of mechanisms. For instance, some inhibit mitosis, some are ACC-ase inhibitors, some inhibit lipid synthesis. Herbicides like paraquat, diquat, 2-4 D have really wide variety of mechanisms. What I could not figure out was how the plants we are interested in (plants of agricultural use) remain immune to them. I believe that herbicides are just scattered in the whole field comprising of both useful as well as useless plants. If on the other hand, herbicides are applied directly to each weed, wouldn't it be better to just root out that weed mechanically rather than first searching for it, and then applying the herbicide directly over it? Can someone clarify please? I am asking because the problem of herbicide toxicity (in humans) has increased very much around the world, and I was just curious to know how they work. Thanks. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Tue Apr 2 17:56:16 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g32MuGv15785 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g32MuFM15780 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 2 Apr 2002 22:56:16 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:55:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: "'dr_anil@hotmail.com'" , "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: RE: Herbicides Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:55:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DA99.83F864B0" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 8868 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DA99.83F864B0 Content-Type: text/plain Some herbicides, like Agent Orange, are broad-spectrum and kill all plant life they contact. Others are more selective, like Round-up, which is a desiccant that kills only herbaceous (not woody) plants. Still others are even more selective, targeting specific types of weeds, for example, while leaving your grass untouched (the common "weed and feed" fertilizers fall in this class). As you noted, herbicides use a very wide variety of mechanisms to achieve a variety of different ends. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Professor Anil Aggrawal [mailto:tarun_84@vsnl.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 14:36 To: Forensic Newsgroup (main) Subject: Herbicides Dear List, I was reading about the mechanism of action of herbicides, and discovered that they have a wide variety of mechanisms. For instance, some inhibit mitosis, some are ACC-ase inhibitors, some inhibit lipid synthesis. Herbicides like paraquat, diquat, 2-4 D have really wide variety of mechanisms. What I could not figure out was how the plants we are interested in (plants of agricultural use) remain immune to them. I believe that herbicides are just scattered in the whole field comprising of both useful as well as useless plants. If on the other hand, herbicides are applied directly to each weed, wouldn't it be better to just root out that weed mechanically rather than first searching for it, and then applying the herbicide directly over it? Can someone clarify please? I am asking because the problem of herbicide toxicity (in humans) has increased very much around the world, and I was just curious to know how they work. Thanks. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DA99.83F864B0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Herbicides

Some herbicides, like Agent Orange, are = broad-spectrum and kill all plant life they contact.  Others are = more selective, like Round-up, which is a desiccant that kills only = herbaceous (not woody) plants.  Still others are even more = selective, targeting specific types of weeds, for example, while = leaving your grass untouched (the common "weed and feed" = fertilizers fall in this class).  As you noted, herbicides use a = very wide variety of mechanisms to achieve a variety of different = ends.


Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Professor Anil Aggrawal [mailto:tarun_84@vsnl.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 14:36
To: Forensic Newsgroup (main)
Subject: Herbicides


Dear List,
I was reading about the mechanism of action of = herbicides, and
discovered that they have a wide variety of = mechanisms. For instance,
some inhibit mitosis, some are ACC-ase inhibitors, = some inhibit lipid
synthesis. Herbicides like paraquat, diquat, 2-4 D = have really wide
variety of mechanisms.
What I could not figure out was how the plants we = are interested in
(plants of agricultural use) remain immune to them. = I believe that
herbicides are just scattered in the whole field = comprising of both
useful as well as useless plants.
If on the other hand, herbicides are applied = directly to each weed,
wouldn't it be better to just root out that weed = mechanically rather
than first searching for it, and then applying the = herbicide directly
over it?
Can someone clarify please? I am asking because the = problem of herbicide
toxicity (in humans) has increased very much around = the world, and I was
just curious to know how they work. Thanks.
Sincerely
Professor Anil Aggrawal
Professor of Forensic Medicine
Maulana Azad Medical College
S-299 Greater Kailash-1
New Delhi-110048
INDIA
Phone: 6465460, 6413101
Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com
Page me via ICQ #19727771
Websites:
1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic = Medicine and Toxicology
http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html
2. Book reviews of latest forensic = books/journals/software/multimedia
http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pu= b001.html
3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page
http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.ht= ml
4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine = Page
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235
5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book = Reviews
http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html
6. Forensic Careers
http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/caree= r.html

*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as = a career, and I
tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the = honor of being
called when the top doctors have failed!*
  `\|||/
   (@@)
ooO (_) Ooo________________________________
_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____
_____|_____Please pardon the = intrusion_|____|_____



------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DA99.83F864B0-- From daemon Tue Apr 2 17:59:47 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g32Mxlj16046 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g32MxkM16041 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g32MxjCm019419 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:59:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:59:45 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Oliver To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Identification by ear shape? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 338 I have become interested in using ear shape for identification. I have seen some severe criticism of the "Iannorelli method," but have *also* heard that there is a large database in the UK which demonstrates some validitiy to using ear shape. Does anybody have any references to the UK database and results from that? Thanks! billo From daemon Tue Apr 2 18:31:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g32NV0j16651 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (brain.vifp.monash.edu.au [130.194.125.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g32NUvM16646 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from vifp.monash.edu.au (pc_haem_1 [130.194.124.124]) by brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25952 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:30:42 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3CAA3FB8.BB370EA5@vifp.monash.edu.au> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 09:33:12 +1000 From: Bentley Atchison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: ear impressions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 348 Andre MOENSSENS discusses ear impression evidence on his WEB site (forensic-evidence.com). Clearly, there is little statistical support for the "uniqueness" of ear impressions but then again the same can be said for partial-fingerprint ID (see discussion cf to DNA statistics by Evett et al (2000) Criminal Law Review 341-355). Bentley Atchison From daemon Tue Apr 2 18:46:43 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g32Nkgl16989 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g32NkfM16984 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g32NkfCm026022; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:46:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:46:41 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Oliver To: Bentley Atchison cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: ear impressions In-Reply-To: <3CAA3FB8.BB370EA5@vifp.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1299 Yeah, but I'm more interested in the biometrics of ear shape than the individuality of ear impressions. The fact that, for instance, an ear is not 100% effective in identification is actually not important for me, as long as I have a rough idea of what ear shape *does* tell me. There's this problem in forensics that something has to either be conclusive or it's of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, of course, few things are 100% one way or the other. There are applications where less than 100% certainty is still useful, as long as you have even a general handle on what that uncertainty might be. If I *have* to go to sea, I prefer a boat that has a 10% chance of sinking to one that has an 80% chance of sinking, even if I can't get one that has only a 0.000000000000000000000001% chance of springing a leak. billo On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Bentley Atchison wrote: > From: Bentley Atchison > > Andre MOENSSENS discusses ear impression evidence on his WEB site > (forensic-evidence.com). > > Clearly, there is little statistical support for the "uniqueness" of ear > impressions but then again the same can be said for partial-fingerprint > ID (see discussion cf to DNA statistics by Evett et al (2000) Criminal > Law Review 341-355). > > Bentley Atchison > From daemon Tue Apr 2 19:02:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3302tL17333 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (brain.vifp.monash.edu.au [130.194.125.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3302rM17328 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from vifp.monash.edu.au (pc_haem_1 [130.194.124.124]) by brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04803 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:02:37 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3CAA4733.8CA353F9@vifp.monash.edu.au> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 10:05:08 +1000 From: Bentley Atchison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: ear impressions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 439 >From my admittedly brief reading of the literature, I think you will find that databases used for ear impressions are somewhat skewed eg., do they include close relatives? Perhaps you also would have to consider that at crime scenes the "perfect" ear impression may not be obtained. So I would have thought any statistical analysis on ear shape should be done with imperfect/partial impressions. Still, good luck. Bentley Atchison From daemon Wed Apr 3 02:04:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33746Z22502 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 02:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (oe38.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.95]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33745M22497 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 02:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:04:05 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [66.61.68.113] From: "Shaun Wheeler" To: Subject: Glock .40 Question Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:09:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Shaun Wheeler" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2002 07:04:05.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[BDF60890:01C1DADD] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 923 Having recently purchased a Glock 22C (.40 S&W) and read some of the criticisms Dan Speir has for the larger chambered models, I am curious about the experiences and opinions of others with respect to gross failure of the weapons of .40 cal or greater. At least two of the photographs he has show one weapon that clearly has an aftermarket barrel (Bar-Sto or Jarvis?) that appears to be fabricated from stainless steel is neatly split like a banana peel about half the length of the barrel starting from the chamber. The measured expansion of the case from Winchester factory 180gr JHP seems to be running about .010-012". If the problem was isolated to re-loads I'd be a little more inclined to buy into the notion that it was a double charge or a particularly aggressive load, but at least two instances appears to be contract ammunition from a reputable manufacturer. Note for Glocksters: I am not anti-Glock. Shaun From daemon Wed Apr 3 07:42:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33CgsY26019 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:42:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f125.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.125]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33CgqM26014 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 04:42:52 -0800 Received: from 208.172.26.30 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:42:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.172.26.30] From: "David Smith" To: dr_anil@hotmail.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Herbicides Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:42:49 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2002 12:42:52.0205 (UTC) FILETIME=[11C1B5D0:01C1DB0D] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3150 Professor, Silly as it sounds some of these herbicides rely on leaf size/shape for their actions. Narrow leafed plants (grasses - wheat, rice etc) present a much smaller surface area than broad leafed plants (clovers, weeds etc) and therefore receive a smaller dose of herbicide from a given spraying. The dose of herbicide applied is calculated to utilize this difference and the broad leafed plants receive a lethal dose whereas the narrow leafed plants do not. Thus the herbicide is selective against broad leafed plants! David Smith >From: Professor Anil Aggrawal >Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com >To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" >Subject: Herbicides >Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:06:01 +0530 > >Dear List, >I was reading about the mechanism of action of herbicides, and >discovered that they have a wide variety of mechanisms. For instance, >some inhibit mitosis, some are ACC-ase inhibitors, some inhibit lipid >synthesis. Herbicides like paraquat, diquat, 2-4 D have really wide >variety of mechanisms. >What I could not figure out was how the plants we are interested in >(plants of agricultural use) remain immune to them. I believe that >herbicides are just scattered in the whole field comprising of both >useful as well as useless plants. >If on the other hand, herbicides are applied directly to each weed, >wouldn't it be better to just root out that weed mechanically rather >than first searching for it, and then applying the herbicide directly >over it? >Can someone clarify please? I am asking because the problem of herbicide >toxicity (in humans) has increased very much around the world, and I was >just curious to know how they work. Thanks. >Sincerely >Professor Anil Aggrawal >Professor of Forensic Medicine >Maulana Azad Medical College >S-299 Greater Kailash-1 >New Delhi-110048 >INDIA >Phone: 6465460, 6413101 >Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com >Page me via ICQ #19727771 >Websites: >1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology >http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html >2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia >http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html >3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page >http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html >4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 >5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews >http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html >6. Forensic Careers >http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html > >*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I >tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being >called when the top doctors have failed!* > `\|||/ > (@@) >ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ >_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| >___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ >_____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From daemon Wed Apr 3 10:56:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33FuEH00544 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccprodapp10.campuscruiser.com ([216.35.68.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33FuDM00539 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccprodapp10 (ccprodapp10 [208.34.245.230]) by ccprodapp10.campuscruiser.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g33FuEx31674 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:56:14 -0500 Message-ID: <8023616.1017849373997.JavaMail.callam2@sage.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:56:13 -0500 (EST) From: Theodore Mozer Reply-To: Theodore Mozer To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: AntiFreeze Detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_6127_4245940.1017849373997" X-Mailer: CC Mailer IIIb Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 300 ------=_Part_6127_4245940.1017849373997 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suspected poisoning of a dog by Etholene Glycol soaked dog bones/treats. Any suggestions for extraction and detection?? Please reply to lppmozet@gw.njsp.org ------=_Part_6127_4245940.1017849373997-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 11:03:45 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33G3jp00874 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccprodapp11.campuscruiser.com ([216.35.68.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33G3iM00869 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccprodapp11 (ccprodapp11 [208.34.245.231]) by ccprodapp11.campuscruiser.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g33G3iX12200 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:03:44 -0500 Message-ID: <98216.1017849824828.JavaMail.tedjenkinsl@wwcc.mailcruiser.com> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:03:44 -0500 (EST) From: Theodore Mozer Reply-To: Theodore Mozer To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: AntiFreeze Detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_5936_5575607.1017849824827" X-Mailer: CC Mailer IIIb Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 245 ------=_Part_5936_5575607.1017849824827 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Just read my own message.....) That is: detection of antifreeze in the dog treat, not the dog........ ------=_Part_5936_5575607.1017849824827-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 11:33:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33GXN001581 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from dasmthkhn463.amedd.army.mil (dasmthkhn463.amedd.army.mil [204.208.124.133]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33GXMM01576 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by dasmthkhn463.amedd.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2BLAZMX0>; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:33:08 -0600 Message-ID: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439D41@dasmthgsh666.amedd.army.mil> From: "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: AntiFreeze Detection Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:32:45 -0600 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 422 How about headspace like you might do for fire debris? Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Theodore Mozer [mailto:tmozer@occ.mailcruiser.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:04 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: AntiFreeze Detection (Just read my own message.....) That is: detection of antifreeze in the dog treat, not the dog........ From daemon Wed Apr 3 12:32:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33HW4M02612 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33HW2M02607 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (unknown [203.200.124.88]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45647410EE; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:03:33 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CAB1A33.78B1577D@vsnl.net> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:35:23 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: More on herbicides Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3240 ***Your Original Message*** Some herbicides, like Agent Orange, are broad-spectrum and kill all plant life they contact. Others are more selective, like Round-up, which is a desiccant that kills only herbaceous (not woody) plants. Still others are even more selective, targeting specific types of weeds, for example, while leaving your grass untouched (the common "weed and feed" fertilizers fall in this class). As you noted, herbicides use a very wide variety of mechanisms to achieve a variety of different ends. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL ***End of your Original Message*** Fair enough. But if I understand alright, Agent Orange is used in war to destroy ALL plant life. Obviously it can't be used to kill selectively. No problem there. Problem is to work out that "INGENIOUS MECHANISM" by which useless plants can be differentiated from useful plants. Round-up (glyphosate I believe), kills only herbaceous (and not woody), but how does it KNOW which is which? Similarly how do the other herbicides figure out they have to kill the plants WE WANT TO KILL. I think the best answer has come from David Smith, who says that broad leaved plants are more susceptible to herbicides because of their larger surface area. And we know weeds ARE broad leaved plants. True or not, this explanation does make sense. Are there any more similar explanations? I was discussing with someone, and I was told a different mechanism. He said that weeds are FASTER growing than normal plants of agricultural use. So if you use auxins (or other plant hormones), they would exhaust out the weeds by making them grow so fast that they die out. Seems far fetched, but again sound logical, because the explanation IS based on a genuine difference between the two kinds of plants. I think we have to look at basic differences between the two types of plants, to work out their mechanisms. Kindly let me know your reactions. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Wed Apr 3 13:03:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33I3F603179 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tulsaconnect.com (mail.tulsaconnect.com [64.200.32.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33I3DM03174 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.135.239.61] (HELO price) by mail.tulsaconnect.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.7) with SMTP id 3525046; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:02:58 -0600 Message-ID: <01f401c1db39$84b52f50$0100a8c0@price.webzone.net> Reply-To: "J. T. Price" From: "J. T. Price" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: More on herbicides Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:01:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4315 I've never studied herbicide chemistry but had a bit of experience using Orange, White and Blue in VN. As I remember, Orange is 2,4D; 2,4,5T mixture. Orange was unpredictable but much better than White (Torodon). Use of Orange on grasses was unsatisfactory, producing at most a chemical mowing. I always believed most of the "mowing" effect was secondary to the motor fuel carrier and not the Orange. Bamboo was particularly resistant to Orange in my experience. Orange worked best on broadleaves and woody vegetation but one could never rely on a good "kill" and frequently had to reapplied. All my work was on the ground but we had Ranch Hand support where Orange was sprayed from C123s. From my experience the Ranch Hand applications had no better results than ground operations but were somewhat safer. JTP -----Original Message----- From: Professor Anil Aggrawal To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Date: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 11:32 AM Subject: More on herbicides ***Your Original Message*** Some herbicides, like Agent Orange, are broad-spectrum and kill all plant life they contact. Others are more selective, like Round-up, which is a desiccant that kills only herbaceous (not woody) plants. Still others are even more selective, targeting specific types of weeds, for example, while leaving your grass untouched (the common "weed and feed" fertilizers fall in this class). As you noted, herbicides use a very wide variety of mechanisms to achieve a variety of different ends. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL ***End of your Original Message*** Fair enough. But if I understand alright, Agent Orange is used in war to destroy ALL plant life. Obviously it can't be used to kill selectively. No problem there. Problem is to work out that "INGENIOUS MECHANISM" by which useless plants can be differentiated from useful plants. Round-up (glyphosate I believe), kills only herbaceous (and not woody), but how does it KNOW which is which? Similarly how do the other herbicides figure out they have to kill the plants WE WANT TO KILL. I think the best answer has come from David Smith, who says that broad leaved plants are more susceptible to herbicides because of their larger surface area. And we know weeds ARE broad leaved plants. True or not, this explanation does make sense. Are there any more similar explanations? I was discussing with someone, and I was told a different mechanism. He said that weeds are FASTER growing than normal plants of agricultural use. So if you use auxins (or other plant hormones), they would exhaust out the weeds by making them grow so fast that they die out. Seems far fetched, but again sound logical, because the explanation IS based on a genuine difference between the two kinds of plants. I think we have to look at basic differences between the two types of plants, to work out their mechanisms. Kindly let me know your reactions. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Wed Apr 3 13:33:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33IXTg03724 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33IXRM03719 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (unknown [203.200.121.56]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912C740A71 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:03:01 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CAB4C47.694D5640@vsnl.net> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:09:03 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Death of Vitas Gerulaitis/Emile Zola Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2519 Dear List, I was reading a book on toxicology (Toxicology - A case oriented Approach by John Joseph Fenton, CRC Press, page 258) which says that Vitas Gerulaitis died of CO poisoning. I did know that, but what I didn't, was the fact that he died of negligence on the part of a hotel. He was sleeping in a hotel room and next to his room was one in which there was a heater for the swimming pool. There was some malfunctioning somewhere due to which excessive amount of CO accumulated and Vitas died. Can somebody tell me which was this hotel, in which country, and was any suit for compensation, or crimincal prosecution launched? What was the result? Thanks. By the way, Emile Zola was the other famous personality who died of Carbon monoxide. He died unexpectedly in September 1902, the victim of coal gas asphyxiation resulting from a blocked chimney flue. Officially, the event was determined to be a tragic accident, but there were - and still are - those who believe that fanatical anti-Dreyfusards arranged to have the chimney blocked. For recapitulation, Zola was the person who had interfered in the Dreyfus affair and had him released. Isn't it terrifying, because to murder someone, all one has to do is to block the chimney of his house in winters? Any comments? Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Wed Apr 3 13:50:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33Iooj04441 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f82.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.82]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33IonM04436 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:50:48 -0800 Received: from 208.172.26.30 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:50:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.172.26.30] From: "David Smith" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Suggestions for 310 plot printer Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:50:48 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2002 18:50:48.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[787E7D70:01C1DB40] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 248 Anyone have a suggestion for the best color printer to hitch to the 310 computer? Dave Smith _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From daemon Wed Apr 3 15:00:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33K0vb06112 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl (rhea.tiscali.nl [195.241.76.178]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33K0tM06107 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cvdlugt (xs241-230-21.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.230.21]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id A52D13779C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:00:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002501c1db48$b8169320$15e6f1c3@cvdlugt> From: "Cor van der Lugt" To: Subject: RE: Identification by earprints Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:49:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1DB59.7AAB3F20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7637 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1DB59.7AAB3F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list members, I can't help responding to previous messages about identification by = earprints. I'm involved in earprint identification since 1987 and have studied = earprints ever since. In this part of the world (especially Europe) = there is a great need to work with earprints to individualize since = earprints are found on a regular basis. In the Netherlands it is = estimated that between 5 and 8% of all burglary cases, earprints are = found by scene-of-crime officers. Similar figures are found in some = parts of Switzerland and the number of cases with earprints in the UK = are rising as well. A lot of countries in Europe bring cases with = earprint identifications to court (The Netherlands, Belgium, United = Kingdom, Switserland, Germany, Spain, Poland, Ireland, Hungary etc.) I know there is sceptism amongst several people as to the validity of = earprint identification. I also know that for earprints to be accepted = in the US it is necessary that this type of evidence is 'generally = accepted within the relevant scientific community', which might not be = the case over there. (See State of Washington v. Kunze). I've written down my experiences with earprints and the known relevant = literature in a book called "Earprint Identification", publiced by = Elsevier, ISBN 90 5749 912 6. (see www.elsevierpolitie.nl/) and go to = English publications. Points of critisicm also regard to the fact that'not enough scientific = research has been carried out' with respect to earprint identification. = Andre Moensens indicates the type of work that should be done is this = respect on his webpage. The article is copied from a proposal put = forward by him during the Frye-hearing in the Kunze case. During this = trial in December 1996 he indicated that his university was willing to = fund such a research. As far as I know it never started. In Europe we have worked to get such a research started ever since 1998. = Now we have formed a consortium of 9 Institutes in the Netherlands, = United Kingdom en Italy. A research proposa has been accepted by the = European Commission for the 5th Framework Program: Competative and = Sustainable Growth, measuring and testing Anti-Fraud methodologies. The = research has started on the 1 of February 2002. Results, participants, = structure, aims etc. of the project, called Forensic Ear Identification = (acronym FEARID) can be found on www.fearid.com Suggestion to the research etc are welcome. Next June an International Earprint Identification course will be held = at the Institute for Criminal Investigation and Crime Science at = Zutphen, The Netherlands. I've given many lectures on the subject at various conferences around = the world and I'll present three workshops on the subject during the = next IAI conference at Las Vegas, NV, USA. For further information can be obtained through the website or from me. Best regards, Cor van der Lugt =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1DB59.7AAB3F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list members,
 
I can't help responding to previous = messages=20 about identification by earprints.
I'm involved in earprint = identification since=20 1987 and have studied earprints ever since. In this part of the world=20 (especially Europe) there is a great need to work with earprints to=20 individualize since earprints are found on a regular basis. In the = Netherlands=20 it is estimated that between 5 and 8% of all burglary cases, earprints = are found=20 by scene-of-crime officers. Similar figures are found in some parts of=20 Switzerland and the number of cases with earprints in the UK are rising = as well.=20 A lot of countries in Europe bring cases with earprint identifications = to court=20 (The Netherlands, Belgium, United Kingdom, Switserland, Germany, Spain, = Poland,=20 Ireland, Hungary etc.)
I know there is sceptism amongst = several people=20 as to the validity of earprint identification. I also know that for = earprints to=20 be accepted in the US it is necessary that this type of evidence is = 'generally=20 accepted within the relevant scientific community', which might not be = the case=20 over there. (See State of Washington v. Kunze).
I've written down my experiences = with earprints=20 and the known relevant literature in a book called "Earprint=20 Identification", publiced by Elsevier, ISBN 90 5749 912 6. (see www.elsevierpolitie.nl/) and = go to=20 English publications.
Points of critisicm also regard to = the fact=20 that'not enough scientific research has been carried out' with respect = to=20 earprint identification. Andre Moensens indicates the type of work that = should=20 be done is this respect on his webpage. The article is copied from a = proposal=20 put forward by him during the Frye-hearing in the Kunze case. During = this trial=20 in December 1996 he indicated that his university was willing to fund = such a=20 research. As far as I know it never started.
 
In Europe we have worked to get such a research = started ever=20 since 1998. Now we have formed a consortium of 9 Institutes in the = Netherlands,=20 United Kingdom en Italy. A research proposa has been accepted by the = European=20 Commission for the 5th Framework Program: Competative and Sustainable = Growth,=20 measuring and testing Anti-Fraud methodologies. The research has started = on the=20 1 of February 2002. Results, participants, structure, aims etc. of the = project,=20 called Forensic Ear Identification (acronym FEARID) can be found on www.fearid.com
Suggestion to = the research=20 etc are welcome.
 
Next June an International Earprint=20 Identification course will be held at the Institute for Criminal = Investigation=20 and Crime Science at Zutphen, The Netherlands.
 
I've given many lectures on the subject at various = conferences=20 around the world and I'll present three workshops on the subject during = the next=20 IAI conference at Las Vegas, NV, USA.
 
For further information can be obtained through the = website or=20 from me.
 
Best regards,
Cor van der=20 Lugt
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1DB59.7AAB3F20-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 15:35:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33KZPR07190 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from kc-msxproto4.kc.umkc.edu (kc-msxproto4.kc.umkc.edu [134.193.143.48]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33KZNM07185 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from KC-MAIL2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.162] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto4.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:35:22 -0600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB4F.13562611" Subject: RE: Identification by ear prints Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:35:21 -0600 Message-ID: <21DA4C106276714EAF667A7790F0AB3C2AD5FD@KC-MAIL2.kc.umkc.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Identification by earprints Thread-Index: AcHbSmZfrGWqLCtDT7+mHouG8fC/WQAAeh2Q From: "Moenssens, Andre" To: "Cor van der Lugt" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2002 20:35:22.0185 (UTC) FILETIME=[13A95B90:01C1DB4F] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 13738 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB4F.13562611 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As Mr. van der Lught indicates, additional information about = identification by the ears can be found on his website. While I respect = Mr. van der Lught's opinion, and respect him also as a very devoted and = hard working law enforcement officer, I disagree with him on the issue = of the reliability of ear prints to establish identify positively, and = we have discussed these disagreements in the public forum on several = occasions. One minor correction in his statement: I did not testify that my = University was willing to fund the research project for which I drew up = a protocol - only that the protocol had been accepted. Those familiar = with funding problems for research projects in American universities = will readily understand that only a few proposals among the many that = are made actually get funded. We were unable to obtain funding during = the first year after the proposal was advanced, and thereafter abandoned = attempts to seek funding when the only appellate decision in the United = States reversed a conviction obtained on ear print evidence because it = was error to accept the evidence. The court decided ear print = identification was not generally accepted as reliable in the forensic = community. [Twelve of the experts, including the nine State's experts, = among them Mr. van der Lught and Mr. Iannarelli, testified to or = admitted that fact.] =20 Perhaps, given the impetus of Dr. Champod's critical assessment of = ear prints (or ear marks) to which I made reference in my earlier post, = other properly constructed research proposals may also be funded and = conducted in this country. Whatever projects may be currently in = progress in Europe, no results have as yet been published that would = permit us to determine whether the "ear print identification" evidence = used there would conform to the standards of proven reliability = (validity) that our courts require under the Daubert and Frye decisions. =20 Andre A. Moenssens=20 Douglas Stripp Missouri Professor of Law=20 University of Missouri - Kansas City=20 5100 Rockhill Road=20 Kansas City, MO 64110-2499=20 Phone: 816-235-5312=20 FAX: 816-235-5276=20 Website: http://www.forensic-evidence.com = =20 -----Original Message----- From: Cor van der Lugt [mailto:cvdlugt@worldonline.nl] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:50 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Identification by earprints Dear list members, =20 I can't help responding to previous messages about identification by = earprints. I'm involved in earprint identification since 1987 and have studied = earprints ever since. In this part of the world (especially Europe) = there is a great need to work with earprints to individualize since = earprints are found on a regular basis. In the Netherlands it is = estimated that between 5 and 8% of all burglary cases, earprints are = found by scene-of-crime officers. Similar figures are found in some = parts of Switzerland and the number of cases with earprints in the UK = are rising as well. A lot of countries in Europe bring cases with = earprint identifications to court (The Netherlands, Belgium, United = Kingdom, Switserland, Germany, Spain, Poland, Ireland, Hungary etc.) I know there is sceptism amongst several people as to the validity of = earprint identification. I also know that for earprints to be accepted = in the US it is necessary that this type of evidence is 'generally = accepted within the relevant scientific community', which might not be = the case over there. (See State of Washington v. Kunze). I've written down my experiences with earprints and the known relevant = literature in a book called "Earprint Identification", publiced by = Elsevier, ISBN 90 5749 912 6. (see www.elsevierpolitie.nl/) and go to = English publications. Points of critisicm also regard to the fact that'not enough scientific = research has been carried out' with respect to earprint identification. = Andre Moensens indicates the type of work that should be done is this = respect on his webpage. The article is copied from a proposal put = forward by him during the Frye-hearing in the Kunze case. During this = trial in December 1996 he indicated that his university was willing to = fund such a research. As far as I know it never started. =20 In Europe we have worked to get such a research started ever since 1998. = Now we have formed a consortium of 9 Institutes in the Netherlands, = United Kingdom en Italy. A research proposa has been accepted by the = European Commission for the 5th Framework Program: Competative and = Sustainable Growth, measuring and testing Anti-Fraud methodologies. The = research has started on the 1 of February 2002. Results, participants, = structure, aims etc. of the project, called Forensic Ear Identification = (acronym FEARID) can be found on www.fearid.com Suggestion to the research etc are welcome. =20 Next June an International Earprint Identification course will be held = at the Institute for Criminal Investigation and Crime Science at = Zutphen, The Netherlands. =20 I've given many lectures on the subject at various conferences around = the world and I'll present three workshops on the subject during the = next IAI conference at Las Vegas, NV, USA. =20 For further information can be obtained through the website or from me. =20 Best regards, Cor van der Lugt =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB4F.13562611 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    As Mr. van der Lught = indicates,=20 additional information about identification by the ears can be = found=20 on his website. While I respect Mr. van der Lught's opinion, and respect = him=20 also as a very devoted and hard working law enforcement officer, I = disagree with=20 him on the issue of the reliability of ear prints to establish identify=20 positively, and we have discussed these disagreements in the public = forum on=20 several occasions.
    One minor correction in = his=20 statement: I did not testify that my University was willing to fund the = research=20 project for which I drew up a protocol - only that the protocol had been = accepted. Those familiar with funding problems for research projects in = American=20 universities will readily understand that only a few proposals = among the=20 many that are made actually get funded. We were unable to obtain = funding=20 during the first year after the proposal was advanced, and = thereafter=20 abandoned attempts to seek funding when the only appellate decision in = the=20 United States reversed a conviction obtained on ear print evidence = because it=20 was error to accept the evidence. The court decided ear print=20 identification was not generally accepted as reliable in the forensic = community.=20 [Twelve of the experts, including the nine State's experts, among=20 them Mr. van der Lught and Mr. Iannarelli, testified to or = admitted=20 that fact.] 
    Perhaps, given the impetus = of Dr.=20 Champod's critical assessment of ear prints (or ear marks) to which I = made=20 reference in my earlier post, other properly constructed research = proposals may=20 also be funded and conducted in this country. Whatever projects may be = currently=20 in progress in Europe, no results have as yet been published that = would=20 permit us to determine whether the "ear print identification" evidence = used=20 there would conform to the standards of proven reliability (validity) = that our=20 courts require under the Daubert and Frye = decisions.
 

Andre A. Moenssens
Douglas Stripp Missouri Professor of Law
University of Missouri - Kansas City
5100 Rockhill Road
Kansas City, MO=20 64110-2499
Phone: = 816-235-5312=20
FAX:  816-235-5276
Website: http://www.forensic-evidence.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van der Lugt=20 [mailto:cvdlugt@worldonline.nl]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, = 2002 1:50=20 PM
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: RE: = Identification=20 by earprints

Dear list members,
 
I can't help responding to = previous messages=20 about identification by earprints.
I'm involved in earprint = identification since=20 1987 and have studied earprints ever since. In this part of the world=20 (especially Europe) there is a great need to work with earprints to=20 individualize since earprints are found on a regular basis. In the = Netherlands=20 it is estimated that between 5 and 8% of all burglary cases, earprints = are=20 found by scene-of-crime officers. Similar figures are found in some = parts of=20 Switzerland and the number of cases with earprints in the UK are = rising as=20 well. A lot of countries in Europe bring cases with earprint = identifications=20 to court (The Netherlands, Belgium, United Kingdom, Switserland, = Germany,=20 Spain, Poland, Ireland, Hungary etc.)
I know there is sceptism amongst = several=20 people as to the validity of earprint identification. I also know that = for=20 earprints to be accepted in the US it is necessary that this type of = evidence=20 is 'generally accepted within the relevant scientific community', = which might=20 not be the case over there. (See State of Washington v. = Kunze).
I've written down my experiences = with=20 earprints and the known relevant literature in a book called "Earprint = Identification", publiced by Elsevier, ISBN 90 5749 912 6. (see www.elsevierpolitie.nl/) = and go to=20 English publications.
Points of critisicm also regard to = the fact=20 that'not enough scientific research has been carried out' with respect = to=20 earprint identification. Andre Moensens indicates the type of work = that should=20 be done is this respect on his webpage. The article is copied from a = proposal=20 put forward by him during the Frye-hearing in the Kunze case. During = this=20 trial in December 1996 he indicated that his university was willing to = fund=20 such a research. As far as I know it never started.
 
In Europe we have worked to get such a research = started ever=20 since 1998. Now we have formed a consortium of 9 Institutes in the=20 Netherlands, United Kingdom en Italy. A research proposa has been = accepted by=20 the European Commission for the 5th Framework Program: Competative and = Sustainable Growth, measuring and testing Anti-Fraud methodologies. = The=20 research has started on the 1 of February 2002. Results, participants, = structure, aims etc. of the project, called Forensic Ear = Identification=20 (acronym FEARID) can be found on www.fearid.com
Suggestion = to the research=20 etc are welcome.
 
Next June an International = Earprint=20 Identification course will be held at the Institute for Criminal = Investigation=20 and Crime Science at Zutphen, The Netherlands.
 
I've given many lectures on the subject at various = conferences around the world and I'll present three workshops on the = subject=20 during the next IAI conference at Las Vegas, NV, USA.
 
For further information can be obtained through = the website=20 or from me.
 
Best regards,
Cor van der=20 Lugt
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB4F.13562611-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 15:41:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33KfNd07485 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu (kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu [134.193.143.159]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33KfMM07480 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from KC-MAIL2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.162] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:41:21 -0600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: ear impressions Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:41:21 -0600 Message-ID: <21DA4C106276714EAF667A7790F0AB3C01098B0B@KC-MAIL2.kc.umkc.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ear impressions Thread-Index: AcHaoLev01QVf/+xRlOh9ybyRAR9FQArxtLQ From: "Moenssens, Andre" To: "Bill Oliver" , "Bentley Atchison" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2002 20:41:21.0538 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9DA4620:01C1DB4F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g33KfMM07481 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4814 There is a tremendous difference between latent ear prints used for identification and ear photographs used as a biometric scanning method. Ear prints first, since you mention the "Iannarelli method." Mr. Alfred Iannarelli is a retired police officer who was hard working, earnest and well-meaning, and who, early in his career, uncritically accepted the idea that ears might be unique. Without seeking to verify that hypothesis, he began collecting photographs of ears to devise an ear classification and identification method. The "Iannarelli method" is based on his 1964 book dealing with ear photographs, NOT ear prints. Mr. Iannarelli's collection of ear photographs has never been made available to other researchers, and he testified a few years ago it does not exist anymore. An "ear print" chapter was added when Mr. Iannarelli self-published a second edition of his book in 1989, but without Mr. Iannarelli having done any study of how two-dimensional partial ear prints that showed only a few characteristics common to ears compared in detail with photographs showing all parts of the external ear, and with three-dimensional actual ears. In sworn testimony, Mr. Iannarelli has admitted he had never taken any science course, had no degrees of any kinds, was not a scientist, had not attended any colleges or universities, had never qualified as an expert in any field, not even in fingerprint identification which was the field in which he worked in law enforcement. He admitted he had no experience in scientific laboratory research, and had not published any articles in the peer reviewed literature, forensic or otherwise. A recent article written by three respected researchers, Christophe Champod, Ph.D., Ian W. Evett, D. Sc. (both of The Forensic Science Service, U.K.) and Benoit Kuchler, M.Sc., of the Institut de Police Scientifique et de Criminologie at Lausanne, under the title "Earmarks as Evidence: A Critical Review," was published in Vol. 46, Journal of Forensic Sciences [6] at pp. 1275-1284 (2001), is worth reading. There is also lots of "stuff" on ear prints on my website. Despite the fact that ear print identification is not recognized as a forensic science that has been proven to be reliable under Daubert and/or Frye standards in the United States for the purpose of establishing identity positively, there is no question that modern biometrics companies are developing, for limited uses (other than for positive identification), photographic crowd scanning systems that also incorporate a study of ear detail visible in surveillance or crowd scanning videos or photographs. Iannarelli's collection of photographs, had it been available for study, could have been a great assistance in this endeavor and would have been the start of perhaps a decent database for study the uniqueness claim. The database existing in the U.K., to my knowledge, does not contain all that many ear photographs - I believe it is only a few hundred - nor have all of the photographs in that database been compared to photographs in other limited databases in other countries. Andre A. Moenssens Douglas Stripp Missouri Professor of Law University of Missouri - Kansas City 5100 Rockhill Road Kansas City, MO 64110-2499 Phone: 816-235-5312 FAX: 816-235-5276 Website: http://www.forensic-evidence.com -----Original Message----- From: Bill Oliver [mailto:billo@Radix.Net] Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 5:47 PM To: Bentley Atchison Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: ear impressions Yeah, but I'm more interested in the biometrics of ear shape than the individuality of ear impressions. The fact that, for instance, an ear is not 100% effective in identification is actually not important for me, as long as I have a rough idea of what ear shape *does* tell me. There's this problem in forensics that something has to either be conclusive or it's of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, of course, few things are 100% one way or the other. There are applications where less than 100% certainty is still useful, as long as you have even a general handle on what that uncertainty might be. If I *have* to go to sea, I prefer a boat that has a 10% chance of sinking to one that has an 80% chance of sinking, even if I can't get one that has only a 0.000000000000000000000001% chance of springing a leak. billo On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Bentley Atchison wrote: > From: Bentley Atchison > > Andre MOENSSENS discusses ear impression evidence on his WEB site > (forensic-evidence.com). > > Clearly, there is little statistical support for the "uniqueness" of ear > impressions but then again the same can be said for partial-fingerprint > ID (see discussion cf to DNA statistics by Evett et al (2000) Criminal > Law Review 341-355). > > Bentley Atchison > From daemon Wed Apr 3 16:09:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33L9VV08225 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from yoda.planetinternet.be (anvers-smtp.planetinternet.be [195.95.30.152]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33L9TM08220 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from Gerrit (u212-239-162-155.adsl.pi.be [212.239.162.155]) by yoda.planetinternet.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D23C3708C; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:09:28 +0200 (CEST) From: "Gerrit Volckeryck" To: "Bill Oliver" , Subject: RE: Identification by ear shape? Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:09:28 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1855 Billo, Ears have been used for a long time to identify people. In the nineteenth century, Bertillon already pinpointed that "it is virtually impossible to find two ears sharing the same characteristics". He used ears as an important element in his "Portrait parle". Of course, this doesn't prove that every single ear is unique. As in any forensic discipline, however, we should be cautious not to jump to conclusions. I even think it's impossible to prove uniqueness anyway. But up to now, I haven't met anyone who has disproved the theory of ears being unique. And : Identical twins do have different earshapes, fingerprints, lips, scents, feet, etc. A collegue of mine, the chief of the Belgian DVI-team, has started last year with an small "Ear biometrics project". Basicly, he uses the Ianarelli-idea in a computerised environment. If you're interested, I can send you some information and my collegue's e-mailadress. I know he'll be willing to answer all your questions. All the best, Gerrit Gerrit Volckeryck commissaris Federale Politie Laboratorium voor Technische en Wetenschappelijke Politie WTC III Simon Bolivarlaan 30 1000 Brussel Belgie tel. +32 2 208 48 48 fax. +32 2 208 48 50 mailto:gerrit.volckeryck@planetinternet.be -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]Namens Bill Oliver Verzonden: woensdag 3 april 2002 1:00 Aan: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Onderwerp: Identification by ear shape? I have become interested in using ear shape for identification. I have seen some severe criticism of the "Iannorelli method," but have *also* heard that there is a large database in the UK which demonstrates some validitiy to using ear shape. Does anybody have any references to the UK database and results from that? Thanks! billo From daemon Wed Apr 3 17:16:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33MGf910027 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from kc-msxproto4.kc.umkc.edu (kc-msxproto4.kc.umkc.edu [134.193.143.48]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33MGeM10022 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from KC-MAIL2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.162] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto4.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:16:39 -0600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Identification by ear shape? Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:16:39 -0600 Message-ID: <21DA4C106276714EAF667A7790F0AB3C2AD5FF@KC-MAIL2.kc.umkc.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Identification by ear shape? Thread-Index: AcHbVAq53YQbEemSSamCsIuYstqTvwAATKTQ From: "Moenssens, Andre" To: "Gerrit Volckeryck" , "Bill Oliver" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2002 22:16:39.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[3A0A2770:01C1DB5D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g33MGeM10023 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4526 Gerrit and Bill: Here we go again! Ears are unique?! Are we talking about earprints, or just plain ears? In the U.S., the burden of establishing the reliability of a scientific technique is on the party seeking to use it. Therefore, it is up to the prosecution which seeks to identify a defendant by his ears to establish that the method used is reliable. It is not up to the defense to disprove reliability. Most of the people who are "credited" with having asserted ear uniqueness, have done so in "ipse dixit" fashion. "Believe it because I say so, even though I have conducted no scientific research on the issue." Alphonse Bertillon made the statement Gerrit credits to him in his book on the "portrait parlé" anthropometric system, but offered no proof thereof, nor was any such proof available at that time. But even then, he was talking about taking complicated measurements of the physical three-dimensional ear with calipers, and he certainly wasn't even contemplating latent earprints. Even if all ears are unique at the molecular level - which most scientists would concede - the relevant question is how easily that uniqueness can be determined reliably on the basis of the information that is available (i.e., an incomplete and smudged ear impression). And that is where the Dr. Champod et als. study found the missing links to be. For fingerprints (post the Llera-Plaza and Mitchell cases in Philadelphia) and for DNA, there are serious statistical studies available and gigantic databases that have been studied, as a result of which an identification can be made with such a high degree of reliability that, as a practical matter, the possibility of duplication of the same characteristics in two different persons can be ignored. That information does not exist with respect to a visual recognition/identification by the ears, let alone earprints. Commissaire de Winne's Ear Biometrics project at the Belgian DVI is a very worthwhile contribution to scientific research in general and to biometric ear comparisons in particular, but it relies on very clear, postmortem photographs that show the full morphology of the ear. Even then, he concluded that additional research is needed on a number of "substudies." Also, in disaster victim identification, as Commissaire de Winne clarified, the inquiry is "usually characterized by a closed population" where the question would not be whether the same characteristics of an ear would be duplicated in the population at large, but rather whether a person could be identified as one among a limited group of known individuals: the victims of a disaster being investigated. For that purpose, proof of uniqueness of all ears is not required, as long as sufficient differences can be observed among the ears of the persons included in a closed universe. Andre A. Moenssens Douglas Stripp Missouri Professor of Law University of Missouri - Kansas City 5100 Rockhill Road Kansas City, MO 64110-2499 Phone: 816-235-5312 FAX: 816-235-5276 Website: http://www.forensic-evidence.com -----Original Message----- From: Gerrit Volckeryck [mailto:gerrit.volckeryck@planetinternet.be] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 3:09 PM To: Bill Oliver; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Identification by ear shape? Billo, Ears have been used for a long time to identify people. In the nineteenth century, Bertillon already pinpointed that "it is virtually impossible to find two ears sharing the same characteristics". He used ears as an important element in his "Portrait parle". Of course, this doesn't prove that every single ear is unique. As in any forensic discipline, however, we should be cautious not to jump to conclusions. I even think it's impossible to prove uniqueness anyway. But up to now, I haven't met anyone who has disproved the theory of ears being unique. And : Identical twins do have different earshapes, fingerprints, lips, scents, feet, etc. A collegue of mine, the chief of the Belgian DVI-team, has started last year with an small "Ear biometrics project". Basicly, he uses the Ianarelli-idea in a computerised environment. If you're interested, I can send you some information and my collegue's e-mailadress. I know he'll be willing to answer all your questions. All the best, Gerrit Gerrit Volckeryck commissaris Federale Politie Laboratorium voor Technische en Wetenschappelijke Politie WTC III Simon Bolivarlaan 30 1000 Brussel Belgie tel. +32 2 208 48 48 fax. +32 2 208 48 50 mailto:gerrit.volckeryck@planetinternet.be From daemon Wed Apr 3 17:40:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33MeDw10512 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (brain.vifp.monash.edu.au [130.194.125.5]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g33MeBM10507 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from vifp.monash.edu.au (pc_haem_1 [130.194.124.124]) by brain.vifp.monash.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11819 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:39:54 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3CAB854B.9DFB2137@vifp.monash.edu.au> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:42:19 +1000 From: Bentley Atchison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Identification by ear shape Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1055 Re Gerrit Volckeryck's comments, Perhaps a point made by Prof. Moessens and others has been missed. In crime work presumably you are not comparing ears as such, you are comparing the print left by an ear to a suspect's ear. I can't imagine you would want to identify a person looking at the ears (maybe in disaster victim ID?). Presumably, you have a match of a print with a suspect. You are then asking, given the accused ear will produce the ear print, what is the probability someone else's ear also will produce the same print. As I understand it, the ear print can be incomplete/partial or be distorted and is dependent on how the print is produced (pressure on different part of the ear). Any arguments you may wish to attempt to make on the "uniqueness" of ear prints (or any other types of print) should be based on these samples and not on ideal photographs or prints of ears. Incidentally, identical twins have areas of their fingerprints the same - it is used by the medical profession to assess monozygosity. Dr. Bentley Atchison From daemon Wed Apr 3 17:56:43 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33MuhM11052 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g33MugM11047 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 3 Apr 2002 22:56:43 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:56:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cc: "'lppmozet@gw.njsp.org'" Subject: RE: AntiFreeze Detection Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:56:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.BC3DCFD0" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2844 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.BC3DCFD0 Content-Type: text/plain Ted, Ethylene glycol is highly soluble in water, so just crush the dog biscuit and extract with water. Analysis of the aqueous extract can be done via FID GC using a polar column. Ethylene glycol determination in water is a routinely performed analysis in environmental labs. Restek offers one such method in this technical note: http://www.restekcorp.com/appnotes/59187.pdf Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Theodore Mozer [mailto:tmozer@occ.mailcruiser.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:56 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: AntiFreeze Detection Suspected poisoning of a dog by Etholene Glycol soaked dog bones/treats. Any suggestions for extraction and detection?? Please reply to ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.BC3DCFD0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: AntiFreeze Detection

Ted,

Ethylene glycol is highly soluble in water, so just = crush the dog biscuit and extract with water.  Analysis of the = aqueous extract can be done via FID GC using a polar column.  = Ethylene glycol determination in water is a routinely performed = analysis in environmental labs.  Restek offers one such method in = this technical note: http://www.restekcorp.com/appnotes/59187.pdf

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Theodore Mozer [mailto:tmozer@occ.mailcruiser= .com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:56
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: AntiFreeze Detection


Suspected poisoning of a dog by Etholene Glycol = soaked dog bones/treats.  Any suggestions for extraction and = detection??

Please reply to

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.BC3DCFD0-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 17:58:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33MwEQ11240 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g33MwDM11235 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 3 Apr 2002 22:58:13 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0500 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Glock .40 Question Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.F2D5CB60" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6590 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.F2D5CB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I can only speak from personal experience as a shooter. I was one of many Army officers who did not approve of the Army's switch from the M1911 .45 pistol to the M9 (Baretta) 9mm. Our objections mainly had to do with stopping power in close combat, not operational characteristics (the M9 is a fine and very accurate weapon, more accurate than the M1911 but with less stopping power). Having used each as an issue weapon for over 10 years apiece, I don't think the 9mm jammed or otherwise failed any less or more often than the .45. The two were comparable in that regard. The 9mm is much easier to clean and maintain, but long-term durability is unknown because it's not that old a weapon. Conversely, I've fired .45s that had been manufactured in the first half of the 20th century and had been in the Army inventory since the Korean and Second World Wars - and still worked fine. In private ownership, I still prefer .45 weapons for the same reasons I preferred the M1911. My SIG Sauer P220 has worked flawlessly since I bought it in the 1980's. I can't remember it ever jamming or malfunctioning in any way. My wife's Colt Combat Commander (a shorter, lighter version of the M1911) does jam occasionally, but not frequently. Both weapons are .45s of course. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Shaun Wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 02:10 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Glock .40 Question Having recently purchased a Glock 22C (.40 S&W) and read some of the criticisms Dan Speir has for the larger chambered models, I am curious about the experiences and opinions of others with respect to gross failure of the weapons of .40 cal or greater. At least two of the photographs he has show one weapon that clearly has an aftermarket barrel (Bar-Sto or Jarvis?) that appears to be fabricated from stainless steel is neatly split like a banana peel about half the length of the barrel starting from the chamber. The measured expansion of the case from Winchester factory 180gr JHP seems to be running about .010-012". If the problem was isolated to re-loads I'd be a little more inclined to buy into the notion that it was a double charge or a particularly aggressive load, but at least two instances appears to be contract ammunition from a reputable manufacturer. Note for Glocksters: I am not anti-Glock. Shaun ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.F2D5CB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Glock .40 Question

I can only speak from personal experience as a = shooter.  I was one of many Army officers who did not approve of = the Army's switch from the M1911 .45 pistol to the M9 (Baretta) = 9mm.  Our objections mainly had to do with stopping power in close = combat, not operational characteristics (the M9 is a fine and very = accurate weapon, more accurate than the M1911 but with less stopping = power).  Having used each as an issue weapon for over 10 years = apiece, I don't think the 9mm jammed or otherwise failed any less or = more often than the .45.  The two were comparable in that = regard.  The 9mm is much easier to clean and maintain, but = long-term durability is unknown because it's not that old a = weapon.  Conversely, I've fired .45s that had been manufactured in = the first half of the 20th century and had been in the Army inventory = since the Korean and Second World Wars - and still worked = fine.

In private ownership, I still prefer .45 weapons for = the same reasons I preferred the M1911.  My SIG Sauer P220 has = worked flawlessly since I bought it in the 1980's.  I can't = remember it ever jamming or malfunctioning in any way.  My wife's = Colt Combat Commander (a shorter, lighter version of the M1911) does = jam occasionally, but not frequently.  Both weapons are .45s of = course.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Wheeler [mailto:shaun_wheeler@hotmail.c= om]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 02:10
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Glock .40 Question


Having recently purchased a Glock 22C (.40 S&W) = and read some of the
criticisms Dan Speir has for the larger chambered = models, I am curious about
the experiences and opinions of others with respect = to gross failure of the
weapons of .40 cal or greater.

At least two of the photographs he has show one = weapon that clearly has an
aftermarket barrel (Bar-Sto or Jarvis?) that appears = to be fabricated from
stainless steel is neatly split like a banana peel = about half the length of
the barrel starting from the chamber.

The measured expansion of the case from Winchester = factory 180gr JHP seems
to be running about .010-012". If the problem = was isolated to re-loads I'd
be a little more inclined to buy into the notion = that it was a double charge
or a particularly aggressive load, but at least two = instances appears to be
contract ammunition from a reputable = manufacturer.

Note for Glocksters: I am not anti-Glock.

Shaun

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB62.F2D5CB60-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 18:04:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33N4Rl11529 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g33N4QM11524 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 3 Apr 2002 23:04:26 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:03:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: More on herbicides Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:03:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB63.D0E66590" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 17141 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB63.D0E66590 Content-Type: text/plain There are as many different answers to your question as there are classes of herbicides - all work on different principles by targeting different things in the metabolism or life cycle of different plants. The mechanism of action varies considerably. Some inhibit photosynthesis, some inhibit seed germination, some are desiccants which prevent water transport through the plant, some target the characteristics of herbaceous plants as opposed to woody plants, others target broadleaf as opposed to grassy plants or vice versa, etc. It's all based on differences in the biology of the different plants. Some plants are more susceptible to a given toxin than others. There are seven major modes of herbicidal action (but probably many more minor ones): growth regulation, amino acid synthesis inhibition, fatty acid (lipid) synthesis inhibition, seedling growth inhibition, photosynthesis inhibition, cell membrane disruption, and pigment inhibition. For example, Roundup is a mixture of glyphosate (i.e., N-phosphonomethyl glycine), water and a surfactant. Glyphosate inhibits the production of an enzyme called EPSP synthase which is necessary for the manufacture of certain amino acids essential to plant metabolism. It's a post-emergent herbicide (i.e., only works on plants with green parts growing above the ground), and will not affect roots unless absorbed through above-ground leaves. The surfactant helps the herbicide stick to and penetrate the plant's leaves so it will be absorbed instead of running or washing off. Although all plants need the target enzyme and so can be affected by Roundup, since it only penetrates the green growing parts of a plant, it will not affect woody plants if contact is limited to the bark. This makes it very useful for controlling weeds growing around woody trees and bushes. Herbicide selectivity is based on the mode of operation. Different plants are resistant to different herbicides. Resistance is usually accomplished by the plant through catabolism of the active ingredient or through deactivation of it by binding it with various biomolecules. Therefore, researchers look for herbicides that kill weeds (defined as any undesirable plant) but which are resisted by the desired crop or ornamental plant. Alternately, they may try to breed varieties of desirable plants that are resistant to specific herbicides. For example, Monsanto (maker of Roundup) has bioengineered a new variety of soybean that is resistant to Roundup, so the herbicide can be liberally used to kill weeds in soybean fields without damaging the soybeans. Here are a couple of sites that provide an excellent primer on herbicides: http://ndsuext.nodak.edu/extpubs/plantsci/rowcrops/a1085w.htm http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~mmattson/Agro2640.html This page gives an overview of the many, many different factors that affect the selectivity of herbicides: http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~mmattson/1644Selectivity.doc Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Professor Anil Aggrawal [mailto:tarun_84@vsnl.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:05 To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: More on herbicides ***Your Original Message*** Some herbicides, like Agent Orange, are broad-spectrum and kill all plant life they contact. Others are more selective, like Round-up, which is a desiccant that kills only herbaceous (not woody) plants. Still others are even more selective, targeting specific types of weeds, for example, while leaving your grass untouched (the common "weed and feed" fertilizers fall in this class). As you noted, herbicides use a very wide variety of mechanisms to achieve a variety of different ends. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL ***End of your Original Message*** Fair enough. But if I understand alright, Agent Orange is used in war to destroy ALL plant life. Obviously it can't be used to kill selectively. No problem there. Problem is to work out that "INGENIOUS MECHANISM" by which useless plants can be differentiated from useful plants. Round-up (glyphosate I believe), kills only herbaceous (and not woody), but how does it KNOW which is which? Similarly how do the other herbicides figure out they have to kill the plants WE WANT TO KILL. I think the best answer has come from David Smith, who says that broad leaved plants are more susceptible to herbicides because of their larger surface area. And we know weeds ARE broad leaved plants. True or not, this explanation does make sense. Are there any more similar explanations? I was discussing with someone, and I was told a different mechanism. He said that weeds are FASTER growing than normal plants of agricultural use. So if you use auxins (or other plant hormones), they would exhaust out the weeds by making them grow so fast that they die out. Seems far fetched, but again sound logical, because the explanation IS based on a genuine difference between the two kinds of plants. I think we have to look at basic differences between the two types of plants, to work out their mechanisms. Kindly let me know your reactions. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB63.D0E66590 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: More on herbicides

There are as many different answers to your question = as there are classes of herbicides - all work on different principles = by targeting different things in the metabolism or life cycle of = different plants.  The mechanism of action varies = considerably.  Some inhibit photosynthesis, some inhibit seed = germination, some are desiccants which prevent water transport through = the plant, some target the characteristics of herbaceous plants as = opposed to woody plants, others target broadleaf as opposed to grassy = plants or vice versa, etc.  It's all based on differences in the = biology of the different plants.  Some plants are more susceptible = to a given toxin than others.

There are seven major modes of herbicidal action (but = probably many more minor ones): growth regulation, amino acid synthesis = inhibition, fatty acid (lipid) synthesis inhibition, seedling growth = inhibition, photosynthesis inhibition, cell membrane disruption, and = pigment inhibition.

For example, Roundup is a mixture of glyphosate = (i.e., N-phosphonomethyl glycine), water and a surfactant. Glyphosate = inhibits the production of an enzyme called EPSP synthase which is = necessary for the manufacture of certain amino acids essential to plant = metabolism.  It's a post-emergent herbicide (i.e., only works on = plants with green parts growing above the ground), and will not affect = roots unless absorbed through above-ground leaves.  The surfactant = helps the herbicide stick to and penetrate the plant's leaves so it = will be absorbed instead of running or washing off.  Although all = plants need the target enzyme and so can be affected by Roundup, since = it only penetrates the green growing parts of a plant, it will not = affect woody plants if contact is limited to the bark.  This makes = it very useful for controlling weeds growing around woody trees and = bushes.

Herbicide selectivity is based on the mode of = operation.  Different plants are resistant to different = herbicides.  Resistance is usually accomplished by the plant = through catabolism of the active ingredient or through deactivation of = it by binding it with various biomolecules.  Therefore, = researchers look for herbicides that kill weeds (defined as any = undesirable plant) but which are resisted by the desired crop or = ornamental plant.  Alternately, they may try to breed varieties of = desirable plants that are resistant to specific herbicides.  For = example, Monsanto (maker of Roundup) has bioengineered a new variety of = soybean that is resistant to Roundup, so the herbicide can be liberally = used to kill weeds in soybean fields without damaging the = soybeans.

Here are a couple of sites that provide an excellent = primer on herbicides:
http://ndsuext.nodak.edu/extpubs/plantsci/rowcrops/a10= 85w.htm
http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~mmattson/Agro2640.html=

This page gives an overview of the many, many = different factors that affect the selectivity of herbicides:  http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~mmattson/1644Selectivity.d= oc


Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Professor Anil Aggrawal [mailto:tarun_84@vsnl.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:05
To: rparsons@ircc.cc.fl.us
Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: More on herbicides


***Your Original Message***
Some herbicides, like Agent Orange, are = broad-spectrum and kill all
plant life they contact.  Others are more = selective, like Round-up,
which is a desiccant that kills only herbaceous (not = woody) plants.
Still others are even more selective, targeting = specific types of weeds,
for example, while leaving your grass untouched (the = common "weed and
feed" fertilizers fall in this class).  As = you noted, herbicides use a
very wide variety of mechanisms to achieve a variety = of different ends.


 Bob Parsons, F-ABC
 Forensic Chemist
 Regional Crime Laboratory
 at Indian River Community College
 Ft. Pierce, FL
***End of your Original Message***
Fair enough. But if I understand alright, Agent = Orange is used in war to
destroy ALL plant life. Obviously it can't be used = to kill selectively.
No problem there. Problem is to work out that = "INGENIOUS MECHANISM" by
which useless plants can be differentiated from = useful plants.
Round-up (glyphosate I believe), kills only = herbaceous (and not woody),
but how does it KNOW which is which? Similarly how = do the other
herbicides figure out they have to kill the plants = WE WANT TO KILL.
I think the best answer has come from David Smith, = who says that broad
leaved plants are more susceptible to herbicides = because of their larger
surface area. And we know weeds ARE broad leaved = plants. True or not,
this explanation does make sense.
Are there any more similar explanations?
I was discussing with someone, and I was told a = different mechanism. He
said that weeds are FASTER growing than normal = plants of agricultural
use. So if you use auxins (or other plant hormones), = they would exhaust
out the weeds by making them grow so fast that they = die out. Seems far
fetched, but again sound logical, because the = explanation IS based on a
genuine difference between the two kinds of plants. = I think we have to
look at basic differences between the two types of = plants, to work out
their mechanisms.
Kindly let me know your reactions.

Sincerely
Professor Anil Aggrawal
Professor of Forensic Medicine
Maulana Azad Medical College
S-299 Greater Kailash-1
New Delhi-110048
INDIA
Phone: 6465460, 6413101
Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com
Page me via ICQ #19727771
Websites:
1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic = Medicine and Toxicology
http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html
2. Book reviews of latest forensic = books/journals/software/multimedia
http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pu= b001.html
3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page
http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.ht= ml
4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine = Page
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235
5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book = Reviews
http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html
6. Forensic Careers
http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/caree= r.html

*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as = a career, and I
tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the = honor of being
called when the top doctors have failed!*
  `\|||/
   (@@)
ooO (_) Ooo________________________________
_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____
_____|_____Please pardon the = intrusion_|____|_____



------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB63.D0E66590-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 18:07:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g33N7XA11630 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g33N7WM11625 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 3 Apr 2002 23:07:32 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:06:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: ear impressions Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:06:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB64.4033BE70" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7692 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB64.4033BE70 Content-Type: text/plain I don't know anything about ear prints, but this was well said, Bill. This point seems to be lost on attorneys, who expect things scientific to be cut and dried, yes or no, 100% or nothing. Science can't be so neatly pigeonholed, of course. As long as one takes into consideration the limitations of an analytical method, it doesn't have to be foolproof to be useful, or even to have probative value. This reminds me of those who try to attack breath alcohol analysis by crying that the instrument can't detect this or that industrial solvent in the breath, when the only salient questions are 1) would a detectible level of this or that solvent likely be found in the breath of a living, ambulatory subject at the time that person was tested? (i.e., 45 minutes or more post-end-of-exposure), and 2) would the presence of that solvent interfere with the accurate detection and quantitation of ethyl alcohol in the subject's breath? If the answer to EITHER question is "no," then it doesn't matter whether the instrument can detect that solvent or not because it's not going to affect the alcohol test results. Don't you just love people who fail to grasp (or choose to ignore) the whole point of the exercise? Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Bill Oliver [mailto:billo@Radix.Net] Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 18:47 To: Bentley Atchison Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: ear impressions Yeah, but I'm more interested in the biometrics of ear shape than the individuality of ear impressions. The fact that, for instance, an ear is not 100% effective in identification is actually not important for me, as long as I have a rough idea of what ear shape *does* tell me. There's this problem in forensics that something has to either be conclusive or it's of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, of course, few things are 100% one way or the other. There are applications where less than 100% certainty is still useful, as long as you have even a general handle on what that uncertainty might be. If I *have* to go to sea, I prefer a boat that has a 10% chance of sinking to one that has an 80% chance of sinking, even if I can't get one that has only a 0.000000000000000000000001% chance of springing a leak. billo On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Bentley Atchison wrote: > From: Bentley Atchison > > Andre MOENSSENS discusses ear impression evidence on his WEB site > (forensic-evidence.com). > > Clearly, there is little statistical support for the "uniqueness" of ear > impressions but then again the same can be said for partial-fingerprint > ID (see discussion cf to DNA statistics by Evett et al (2000) Criminal > Law Review 341-355). > > Bentley Atchison > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB64.4033BE70 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ear impressions

I don't know anything about ear prints, but this was = well said, Bill.  This point seems to be lost on attorneys, who = expect things scientific to be cut and dried, yes or no, 100% or = nothing.  Science can't be so neatly pigeonholed, of course.  = As long as one takes into consideration the limitations of an = analytical method, it doesn't have to be foolproof to be useful, or = even to have probative value.  This reminds me of those who try to = attack breath alcohol analysis by crying that the instrument can't = detect this or that industrial solvent in the breath, when the only = salient questions are 1) would a detectible level of this or that = solvent likely be found in the breath of a living, ambulatory subject = at the time that person was tested? (i.e., 45 minutes or more = post-end-of-exposure), and 2) would the presence of that solvent = interfere with the accurate detection and quantitation of ethyl alcohol = in the subject's breath?  If the answer to EITHER question is = "no," then it doesn't matter whether the instrument can = detect that solvent or not because it's not going to affect the alcohol = test results.

Don't you just love people who fail to grasp (or = choose to ignore) the whole point of the exercise?

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Oliver [mailto:billo@Radix.Net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 18:47
To: Bentley Atchison
Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: ear impressions



Yeah, but I'm more interested in the biometrics = of
ear shape than the individuality of ear = impressions.


The fact that, for instance, an ear is not 100% = effective
in identification is actually not important for me, = as
long as I have a rough idea of what ear shape = *does*
tell me.

There's this problem in forensics that something = has
to either be conclusive or it's of no use = whatsoever.
Unfortunately, of course, few things are 100% = one
way or the other.

There are  applications where less than 100% = certainty
is still useful, as long as you have even a general = handle
on what that uncertainty might be.  If I *have* = to go
to sea, I prefer a boat that has a 10% chance of = sinking
to one that has an 80% chance of sinking, even if = I
can't get one that has only a = 0.000000000000000000000001%
chance of springing a leak.

billo


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Bentley Atchison wrote:

> From: Bentley Atchison = <bentleya@vifp.monash.edu.au>
>
> Andre MOENSSENS discusses ear impression = evidence on his WEB site
> (forensic-evidence.com).
>
> Clearly, there is little statistical support = for the "uniqueness" of ear
> impressions but then again the same can be said = for partial-fingerprint
> ID (see discussion cf to DNA statistics by = Evett et al (2000) Criminal
> Law Review 341-355).
>
> Bentley Atchison
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1DB64.4033BE70-- From daemon Wed Apr 3 22:15:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g343F0X15083 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.104]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g343ExM15078 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from Unbonmot@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.125.e951e5a (4248); Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:14:51 -0500 (EST) From: Unbonmot@aol.com Message-ID: <125.e951e5a.29dd1f2b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:14:51 EST Subject: Re: Death of Vitas Gerulaitis/Emile Zola To: dr_anil@hotmail.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 267 Vitas Gerulaitis was a guest in a friend's home and sleeping in a guest bungalow near the heater for the pool. The following link is to an article about his death in 1994. Click here: WELCOME TO PPI / S-TECH From daemon Thu Apr 4 07:20:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g34CKsw21256 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g34CKqM21251 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g34CKoCm005970; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:20:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:20:50 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Oliver To: Bentley Atchison cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Identification by ear shape In-Reply-To: <3CAB854B.9DFB2137@vifp.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3408 On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Bentley Atchison wrote: > From: Bentley Atchison > > Re Gerrit Volckeryck's comments, > > Perhaps a point made by Prof. Moessens and others has been missed. In > crime work presumably you are not comparing ears as such, you are > comparing the print left by an ear to a suspect's ear. I can't imagine > you would want to identify a person looking at the ears (maybe in > disaster victim ID?). There are a zillion operational reasons. 1) Consider that you are looking for a person. You *think* you spot one such person in a surveillance photo of a crowd. Do you spend the thousands and thousands of dollars to detail people to that place to look? Perhaps it would be useful to be able to have some idea about the likelihood that this will not be a wild goose chase. So, what does that mean? It means that you have a number of things -- you can harvest different data from the image depending on how good it is, the view, etc. Perhaps you have a full facial image. Perhaps oblique. Perhaps an ear. Perhaps you can tell the color of the eyes. Perhaps not. The fact is that you are looking for some indication of whether or not it is *likely* that it may be this person. These arguments about whether or not ear shape is 100% accurate for identification in terms of Daubert are pretty much irrelevant to this question. A much lower level of certainty is OK. Further, in any operational situation I have seen, ear shape would not be used in isolation. Say we are looking at a person with no hair, short stature, an eyepatch, a wooden leg, a parrot on his shoulder and a limp. And an ear. Oh, sure, there has never been a study done of 3 or four million people testing whether or not the combination of hair, stature, eyepatch, wooden leg, keeping a parrot, and ear shape is an absolute verification of identity. It would, I am sure, never be allowed as evidence of identity in a Daubert hearing. We could never say we recognize such a person in court. It could be *anyone* I suppose. We must assume that there are billions of short, bald, one-eyed, peg-legged, parrot fans in every community. After all, where's the statistical study? Daubert seems to have told us that common sense has no place in court. But, outside of court, it's still OK to say -- "Hmmm... You say there's a short, bald, one-eyed, peg-legged, guy with a parrot there? Maybe we oughta follow up on that..." 2) The mass fatality scenario you mention is another. You have an ear attached to a piece of scalp. Whose is it? Do I *also* need to track down relatives for DNA? Do I also need to spend the money to try to track down dental X-rays? 3) You are setting up a secure facility. You want to use biometric information as one layer of identification. What weight should you give ear shape? That it is not 100% perfect is not what's important. What's important is knowing *how* good it is, and how independent it is from other biometric measures. 4) You want to place an area under surveillance and want to automatically note when certain people enter and leave. What combination of measures will allow you to make that note? and on and on. Thus, even if ear shape is not 100% perfect in and of itself as a method of identification, that doesn't mean that it can't be useful -- in spite of Daubert. The question is *how* useful is it? billo From daemon Thu Apr 4 09:46:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g34Ek3S23371 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl (rhea.tiscali.nl [195.241.76.178]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g34Ek1M23366 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from Debug (webmail-4.tiscali.nl [195.241.76.104]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id 63B6837516; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:46:01 +0200 (MET DST) To: Bentley Atchison Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Dhr.C.van der Lugt" Subject: Re: Identification by ear shape(2) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:44:42 MET X-Mailer: World Online WebMail v1.1 Message-Id: <20020404144601.63B6837516@rhea.tiscali.nl> Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3156 Indeed one is looking at earPRINTS and compare prints with prints. Indeed you will never find a 'complete' earprint at a crime scene - certain parts of the ear will, because of the elevations in the three-dimensional ears will never print. Our research focuses on earprints - comparing prints with prints, even partial prints. There is however an important thing to bare in mind. Prints found at a crime scene will in most cases occur because a person has been listening at the surface of a door or window. The object of that person will have been to find out whether or not it was safe to break into the premises without being caught. In a pre-research we have tried to quantify the amount of pressure needed for optimum hearing. It occurs that this amount of pressure cann't be quantified. It is depending on the person, especially the three-dimensional structure of his/her ear. The area around the concha needs to be closed to be able to hear what is going on on the other side. This demands different amounts of pressure. Test prints or standards from a suspect should therefor also be obtained in the same way, otherwise you might face problems. From my own experience in thousands of cases I have learned that burglars, especially those who commit burglaries 'on a daily bases' are very experienced in listening at doors and windows. Their earprints appear to be almost identical, even after a ten years period, because they apply the same amount of pressure again and again. During our research in which we will use advanced imaging and measuring technique and design extraction cues for a database system. Part of that will also be a reliability test that will provide an error-rate. Since anthropology will be a major part in the whole research and those details on minutiae level will be very hard to fit into a computerized system, at the end we will still have the evaluation by a person. The conclusion at the end will again be subjective, but will be backed-up by the research findings. Cor van der Lugt > Re Gerrit Volckeryck's comments, > > Perhaps a point made by Prof. Moessens and others has been missed. In > crime work presumably you are not comparing ears as such, you are > comparing the print left by an ear to a suspect's ear. I can't imagine > you would want to identify a person looking at the ears (maybe in > disaster victim ID?). Presumably, you have a match of a print with a > suspect. You are then asking, given the accused ear will produce the > ear print, what is the probability someone else's ear also will produce > the same print. > > As I understand it, the ear print can be incomplete/partial or be > distorted and is dependent on how the print is produced (pressure on > different part of the ear). Any arguments you may wish to attempt to > make on the "uniqueness" of ear prints (or any other types of print) > should be based on these samples and not on ideal photographs or prints > of ears. > > Incidentally, identical twins have areas of their fingerprints the same > - it is used by the medical profession to assess monozygosity. > > Dr. Bentley Atchison > > > > From daemon Thu Apr 4 09:51:16 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g34EpGR23625 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g34EpEM23620 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:51:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.253.85.41]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020404145113.GHSY286.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:51:13 +0100 Message-ID: <002c01c1dbe7$fbc1e080$2955fd3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: Forensic Entomology Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:49:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1DBF0.5CC605C0" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7194 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1DBF0.5CC605C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List Members, I am dealing with a complicated case. According to the account given a = young man was the victim of multiple stab wounds, which killed him. His = body was then partially burned and hidden in nearby vegetation. It had = suffered extensive fire damage. It was left there for up to 21 hours = before being moved and buried in another wooded area about 1/4-1/2 mile = away. 12 days after the murder the body was discovered. It is clear that the fire site is where the body was burned, but there = are questions as to how long it was burning and when it was burned. On the day that it was discovered the remains were subjected to = post-mortem examination. Certain samples were taken. Among these were = maggots. The report says that there was extensive fire damage and that = all areas of soft tissue that survived the fire showed marked = decomposition and maggot infestation. However, samples only appear to = have been taken from the right rib-cage and the lumen of the trachea. = The report also says that there was no pathological evidence of fire = products in the trachea. The body was subjected to a further post-mortem examination before it = was made available to defence pathologists. The first defence = examination revealed something interesting. There were maggots, but some = were dead. Unfortunately no samples of maggots were taken at this = examination. Can anyone offer possible explanations for some being dead = while others survived? I would like to know whether it is possible for there to have been two = separate infestations. This would involve one being prior to the partial = burning of the body and the other afterwards. This would mean that the = burning had taken place several hours/days after that given in the = account. Would traces of a pre-fire infestation survive the burning? = Please bear in mind the time scale of murder to discovery of body is 12 = days. I am unsure if the maggots recovered were sent to a forensic = entomologist for exsamination, although I can't see any point in taking = them if they were not examined. Consequently, I cannot at present = provide further information regarding species. I would like to know if = maggot evidence could distinguish between the following possibilities 1) = The body was left in vegetation above ground prior to burning for a = period not less than two days and was then buried; 2) The body was = immediately burned and then left in vegetation above ground prior to = burial for up to 21 hours; 3) The body was left in vegetation above = ground for at least two days, then burned, left in vegetation for just = less than a day and was then buried. Could the species of maggots and = the condition of them distinguish these possibilities? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1DBF0.5CC605C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List Members,
 
I am dealing with a complicated case. = According to=20 the account given a young man was the victim of multiple stab wounds, = which=20 killed him. His body was then partially burned and hidden in nearby = vegetation.=20 It had suffered extensive fire damage. It was left there for up to 21 = hours=20 before being moved and buried in another wooded area about 1/4-1/2 mile = away. 12=20 days after the murder the body was discovered.
 
It is clear that the fire site is where = the body=20 was burned, but there are questions as to how long it was burning and = when it=20 was burned.
 
On the day that it was discovered the = remains were=20 subjected to post-mortem examination. Certain samples were taken. Among = these=20 were maggots. The report says that there was extensive fire damage and = that all=20 areas of soft tissue that survived the fire showed marked decomposition = and=20 maggot infestation. However, samples only appear to have been taken from = the=20 right rib-cage and the lumen of the trachea. The report also says that = there was=20 no pathological evidence of fire products in the trachea.
 
The body was subjected to a further = post-mortem=20 examination before it was made available to defence pathologists. The = first=20 defence examination revealed something interesting. There were maggots, = but some=20 were dead. Unfortunately no samples of maggots were taken at this = examination.=20 Can anyone offer possible explanations for some being dead while others=20 survived?
 
I would like to know whether it is = possible for=20 there to have been two separate infestations. This would involve one = being prior=20 to the partial burning of the body and the other afterwards. This would = mean=20 that the burning had taken place several hours/days after that = given=20 in the account. Would traces of a pre-fire infestation survive the = burning?=20 Please bear in mind the time scale of murder to discovery of body is 12=20 days.
 
I am unsure if the maggots recovered = were sent to a=20 forensic entomologist for exsamination, although I can't see any point = in taking=20 them if they were not examined. Consequently, I cannot at present = provide=20 further information regarding species. I would like to know if maggot = evidence=20 could distinguish between the following possibilities 1) The body was = left in=20 vegetation above ground prior to burning for a period not less than two = days and=20 was then buried; 2) The body was immediately burned and then left in = vegetation=20 above ground prior to burial for up to 21 hours; 3) The body was left in = vegetation above ground for at least two days, then burned, left in = vegetation=20 for just less than a day and was then buried. Could the species of = maggots and=20 the condition of them distinguish these possibilities?
 
Thank you for your attention in this=20 matter.
 
Satish Sekar
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1DBF0.5CC605C0-- From daemon Thu Apr 4 15:31:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g34KVoH21262 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccprodapp11.campuscruiser.com ([216.35.68.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g34KVnM21257 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccprodapp11 (ccprodapp11 [208.34.245.231]) by ccprodapp11.campuscruiser.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g34KVnX23971 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:31:49 -0500 Message-ID: <520611.1017952309289.JavaMail.tedjenkinsl@wwcc.mailcruiser.com> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:31:49 -0500 (EST) From: Theodore Mozer Reply-To: Theodore Mozer To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Ethlyene Glycol Detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_7658_3896114.1017952309288" X-Mailer: CC Mailer IIIb Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 371 ------=_Part_7658_3896114.1017952309288 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the help in ID'ing anti freeze in dog treats. We extrated both with water and MeOH, filtered and dried down the samples. Ran them on KBr on our FTIR and got beautiful graphs, better than the control in the library. ------=_Part_7658_3896114.1017952309288-- From daemon Thu Apr 4 18:43:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g34Nhpo23890 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f11.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.11]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g34NhoM23885 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:43:50 -0800 Received: from 203.109.250.99 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 23:43:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.250.99] From: "Richard Wright" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: horse riders syndrome Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 09:43:49 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Apr 2002 23:43:50.0321 (UTC) FILETIME=[923FBA10:01C1DC32] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 517 I am told that a French osteologist G Palfi has written about 'horse riders syndrome', which presents as multiple enthesopathies of the femur and acetabulum. Have set in motion steps to get his paper. In the meantime has anybody heard of such a syndrome in the English language literature? I can't find anything on the web or in Medline 1966 to present. Richard Wright _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From daemon Fri Apr 5 07:54:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g35Csqs03009 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g35CspM02996 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:54:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.253.85.57]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020405125449.YABD17294.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:54:49 +0100 Message-ID: <006601c1dca0$e2cc4340$7ec8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: International DNA Databasing - Thanks Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:53:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C1DCA9.43841D40" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3965 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C1DCA9.43841D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List Members, A while ago I posted queries relating to DNA Databases and Statistics to = try to establish whether it would be possible to compare DNA obtained = from crime scenes (especially unsolved cold cases) with the DNA profiles = of people stored on National DNA Databases throughout the world in order = to generate possible lines of enquiry. The responses from many of you quickly established that this was viable = - problems were more legal than scientific - but some would involve a = sacrifice of discriminating power. Nevertheless, there were enough = common loci between the US Database and European ones to make checks = worthwhile. As a result of responses and further enquiries I have the pleasure to = tell you all that investigating officers in one of the cases that I = thought would benefit from this have taken my suggestion seriously and = are contacting custodians of National DNA Databases in several = jurisdictions.=20 Given that international travel is easier than it once was such checks = of all databases throughout the world could stimulate new leads in a = number of cases and may well be a valuable investigative tool for future = investigations as well as cold cases. Once again thanks to everyone who = assisted in this process. It is greatly appreciated. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C1DCA9.43841D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List Members,
 
A while ago I posted queries relating = to DNA=20 Databases and Statistics to try to establish whether it would be = possible to=20 compare DNA obtained from crime scenes (especially unsolved cold cases) = with the=20 DNA profiles of people stored on National DNA Databases throughout the = world in=20 order to generate possible lines of enquiry.
 
The responses from many of you quickly = established=20 that this was viable - problems were more legal than scientific - but = some would=20 involve a sacrifice of discriminating power. Nevertheless, there were = enough=20 common loci between the US Database and European ones to make checks=20 worthwhile.
 
As a result of responses and further = enquiries I=20 have the pleasure to tell you all that investigating officers in one of = the=20 cases that I thought would benefit from this have taken my suggestion = seriously=20 and are contacting custodians of National DNA Databases in several=20 jurisdictions.
 
Given that international travel is = easier than it=20 once was such checks of all databases throughout the world could = stimulate new=20 leads in a number of cases and may well be a valuable investigative tool = for=20 future investigations as well as cold cases. Once again thanks to = everyone who=20 assisted in this process. It is greatly appreciated.
 
Best Wishes
 
Satish Sekar
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C1DCA9.43841D40-- From daemon Fri Apr 5 14:11:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g35JBME10664 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from web13303.mail.yahoo.com (web13303.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.39]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g35JBLM10659 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:11:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20020405191119.80903.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.79.108.58] by web13303.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:11:19 PST Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) From: John Lentini Reply-To: johnlentini@yahoo.com Subject: GC identification software/macros for fire debris To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 977 I'm looking at what appears to be a reconstructed chromatogram (or target compound chromatogram, or target ion chromatogram) plotted on the mass spectum format of HP Chemstation software. It apparently converts GCs to "Mass Specs" (sort of) then searches a library of standards that were put thru the same process. It seems to use the MS library software to compare GC patterns and looks interesting if you have enough standards, but maybe dangerous if the comparison library contains only ignitable liquids. Anybody out there familiar with the use of this macro, or know anything more about it, like where I could get a copy? ===== Nothing worthwhile happens until somebody makes it happen. John J. Lentini, johnlentini@yahoo.com Certified Fire Investigator Fellow, American Board of Criminalistics http://www.atslab.com 800-544-5117 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From daemon Sat Apr 6 13:01:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g36I1Di25577 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g36I1BM25572 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (unknown [203.197.210.125]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F17412B4 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:32:42 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CAF3365.CF9AA995@vsnl.net> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 23:11:57 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: A french phrase related to drowning Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1603 Dear list, Can somebody tell me the meaning of the following french phrase please, "C'est la putrefaction qui la fait monter vers les orifices respiratoires et la detruit" This phrase (attributed to one Simonin of 1955) is written on page 428 of "The Essentianls of Forensic Medicine" 4th edition by Polson, Gee and Knight. The chapter is on drowning. Thanks. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Sat Apr 6 20:53:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g371r9p00221 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 20:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from coyote.goldnet.com.br ([200.230.109.6]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g371r7M00216 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 20:53:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from goldnet.com.br (leao80.goldnet.com.br [200.230.109.80]) by coyote.goldnet.com.br (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g371qgj19383; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:52:42 -0300 Message-ID: <3CAFA65E.87D7DBDA@goldnet.com.br> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 22:52:30 -0300 From: Jorge Alejandro Paulete Scaglia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dr_anil@hotmail.com CC: Forens List Subject: A french phrase related to drowning References: <3CAF3365.CF9AA995@vsnl.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 570     Dear Professor Anil Aggrawal,

    If I'm not wrong, the translation of the french phrase please, "C'est la putrefaction qui la fait monter vers les orifices respiratoires et la detruit", is "It is the putrefaction that makes it go up toward the respiratory openings and destroys it".

    Cherrs,

    Jorge Alejandro
    www.pericias-forenses.com.br
 
  From daemon Sat Apr 6 23:50:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g374o9M02009 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g374o7M02004 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (d4433.pppdel.vsnl.net.in [203.197.208.38]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6439B41293 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:21:38 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CAFD1C9.D58705FD@vsnl.net> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 10:27:45 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Some more french terms used in drowning Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2196 Dear list, I was reading Polson, Gee and Knight's "The Essentials of Forensic medicine" 4th edition, and I was surprised at the number of French terms he uses in the chapter on drowning. Since I have not seen these terms in any other book, I thought I should share them with the list. I would also like to know from the list if they have seen these terms anywhere else. Also, are these terms common enough to be taught to our (undergraduate medical) students. I may stress that in India, Forensic Medicine (at the undergraduate level) is taught at a very vigorous level - probably at the same level as, say, pharmacology is taught in the West. The terms are 1. tete de negre appearance (page 427) 2. Champignon de mousse (page 428) I believe "tete de negre" means "the head of a negro". Am I right? What is the meaning of Champignon and mousse (separately please)? I thought mousse means a mouse in French. Am I right? Kindly let me know. Many thanks. Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Sun Apr 7 01:43:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g376hp503269 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g376hnM03264 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from vsnl.net (unknown [203.200.101.231]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3102C40C17 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:15:18 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CAFDA12.D41BED7E@vsnl.net> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 11:03:06 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Explanation of "it" in French phrase Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2314 Dear List, many thanks for the explanations of my french phrase. I am amazed at the ammount of our collective wisdom. I have seen that almost every question gets answered in this list. Thanks. I had asked the meaning of the french phrase, which is supposed to be attributed to one Simonin who said it in 1955. The phrase was "C'est la putrefaction qui la fait monter vers les orifices respiratoires et la detruit" Most translations have come like this: "It is the putrefaction that makes it go up toward the respiratory openings and destroys it" Many have wondered, what the "it" refers to. From the context, it appears that "it" refers to the foam. Because just before mentioning this phrase, the writer says, (reference once again - "The Essentials of Forensic Medicine" by Polson, Gee and Knight, 4th Edition, page 428. The chapter is on drowning), "It is sometimes suggested that the appearance of the foam externally is a result of putrefaction. Simonin (1955) said,....." and now the writer gives the phrase, that I have given. Thanks list for all the help!! Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Sun Apr 7 09:10:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g37DAOI06534 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 09:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g37DAMM06529 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 09:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.128.229]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020407131020.DLEB8815.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net>; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:10:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3CB04666.F5C3245B@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 08:15:28 -0500 From: "E. J. Wagner" Reply-To: EJWagner@worldnet.att.net Organization: Crime Historian / Storyteller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dr_anil@hotmail.com CC: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Re: Some more french terms used in drowning References: <3CAFD1C9.D58705FD@vsnl.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 528 Professor; Champignon de mousse refers to the mushroom shaped foam frequently found exuding from the mouth and nose of the drowned. Champignon= mushroom,mousse= foam. (These terms are used in the culinary arts as well.) I've heard these phrases used in autopsy rooms often, although I can't recall a precise written source. Like contrecoup,they were first used by French pathologists,and were adopted by other practitioners. Hope this helps EJ Wagner -- on the World Wide Web at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ From daemon Sun Apr 7 12:04:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g37G4mR08100 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f215.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.31.215]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g37G4lM08095 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 09:04:44 -0700 Received: from 195.95.30.140 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 16:04:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [195.95.30.140] From: "Claire Barragan" To: dr_anil@hotmail.com, forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Some more french terms used in drowning Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 18:04:44 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2002 16:04:44.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF219C90:01C1DE4D] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2803 Professor, I agree with Mr. Wagner about the translation of 'Champignon' and 'mousse'. 'Tête-de-nègre' refers to a colour: dark brown, chestnut brown. Hope this helps, Claire >From: Professor Anil Aggrawal >Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com >To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" >Subject: Some more french terms used in drowning >Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 10:27:45 +0530 > >Dear list, >I was reading Polson, Gee and Knight's "The Essentials of Forensic >medicine" 4th edition, and I was surprised at the number of French terms >he uses in the chapter on drowning. Since I have not seen these terms in >any other book, I thought I should share them with the list. I would >also like to know from the list if they have seen these terms anywhere >else. Also, are these terms common enough to be taught to our >(undergraduate medical) students. I may stress that in India, Forensic >Medicine (at the undergraduate level) is taught at a very vigorous level >- probably at the same level as, say, pharmacology is taught in the >West. >The terms are >1. tete de negre appearance (page 427) >2. Champignon de mousse (page 428) > >I believe "tete de negre" means "the head of a negro". Am I right? What >is the meaning of Champignon and mousse (separately please)? I thought >mousse means a mouse in French. Am I right? Kindly let me know. Many >thanks. >Sincerely >Professor Anil Aggrawal >Professor of Forensic Medicine >Maulana Azad Medical College >S-299 Greater Kailash-1 >New Delhi-110048 >INDIA >Phone: 6465460, 6413101 >Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com >Page me via ICQ #19727771 >Websites: >1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology >http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html >2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia >http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html >3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page >http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html >4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 >5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews >http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html >6. Forensic Careers >http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html > >*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I >tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being >called when the top doctors have failed!* > `\|||/ > (@@) >ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ >_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| >___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ >_____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ > > > _________________________________________________________________ Download MSN Explorer gratis van http://explorer.msn.nl/intl.asp. From daemon Sun Apr 7 13:33:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g37HXEo08946 for forens-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g37HXCM08941 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KJohn39679@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.199.4f4bdaf (4215) for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT) From: KJohn39679@aol.com Message-ID: <199.4f4bdaf.29e1dcd1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:33:05 EDT Subject: Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: Imprisoned Activist Sues FBI To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_199.4f4bdaf.29e1dcd1_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 5547 --part1_199.4f4bdaf.29e1dcd1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why not sue FBI lab agents like Mike Malone who advocate on government time instead of objectively analyzing data? --part1_199.4f4bdaf.29e1dcd1_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v84.10) with ESMTP id MAILINZD41-0406165210; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 16:52:10 -0500 Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com ([64.15.247.171]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (v84.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD33-0406165147; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 16:51:47 -0500 Received: from email4.lga2.nytimes.com (email4 [10.0.0.169]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCC5C3863 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 16:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by email4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id B0DBC15C28; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 16:04:27 -0800 (PST) Sender: articles-email@ms1.lga2.nytimes.com Reply-To: kjohn39679@aol.com Errors-To: articles-email@ms1.lga2.nytimes.com From: kjohn39679@aol.com To: kjohn39679@aol.com Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Imprisoned Activist Sues FBI Message-Id: <20020407000427.B0DBC15C28@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 16:04:27 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by kjohn39679@aol.com. WHY NOT SUE FBI LAB AGENTS WHO ADVOCATE INSTEAD OF OBJECTIVELY ANALYZING WHILE PUTTING OUT MISINFORMATION AND FALSEHOODS/ kjohn39679@aol.com /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Enjoy new investment freedom! Get the tools you need to successfully manage your portfolio from CSFBdirect. Start with award-winning research. Then add access to round-the-clock customer service from Series-7 trained representatives. Open an account today and receive a $100 credit! http://www.csfbdirect.com/b4.htm \----------------------------------------------------------/ Imprisoned Activist Sues FBI April 4, 2002 By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 6:26 p.m. ET WASHINGTON (AP) -- FBI agents and Director Louis Freeh denied imprisoned American Indian activist Leonard Peltier a fair chance at clemency and parole when they publicly protested against him in 2000, a lawsuit filed Thursday alleged. The FBI has said the agents were off-duty at the time and had a constitutional right to protest the possibility of Peltier's gaining freedom after being convicted in the death of two agents. The action, filed in federal court in Washington, charges Freeh and the agents ``engaged in a systematic, and officially sanctioned campaign of misinformation and disinformation designed to prevent'' Peltier's clemency request from receiving fair consideration. Freeh retired from the FBI last summer. The FBI on Thursday dismissed the allegation, saying employees' comments are protected free speech. ``FBI employees, like other federal workers and citizens, have the right to express their views on issues they feel passionate about -- in this case the brutal killing of two FBI agents,'' Assistant Director John Collingwood said. ``They were reminding the American public of the consistently upheld murder conviction of Leonard Peltier, and they were doing so on their own time,'' he said. The suit requests the court to order the agents' silence on the issue and to pay $1 million in damages. ``I have a problem with them speaking at all if they are active agents,'' Peltier's lawyer, Bernard V. Kleinman, said Thursday. The agents should be ordered not to protest because ``there may still be individuals that could still be affected by the case,'' Kleinman added. ``If that's the case then I don't understand why they're able to speak at all.'' Just before leaving office, President Clinton considered granting Peltier clemency for his convictions in the 1975 killings of the two FBI agents. Ultimately, Clinton denied clemency. Kleinman says that's because the president may have been swayed by the march of more than 500 FBI agents and families outside the White House. Peltier was convicted in the June 26, 1975, murders of agents Ron Williams and Jack Coler on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota as they were searching for robbery suspects, according to FBI officials. Both were shot in the head at point-blank range after they were injured. The bodies were left on a dirt road. Peltier was charged with taking part in the slayings, but whether he fired the fatal shots was never proved. After fleeing to Canada and being extradited to the United States, he was convicted and sentenced in 1977, despite defense claims that evidence against him had been falsified. ^------ On the Net: Peltier defense: http://www.freepeltier.org Clemency opponents: http://www.noparolepeltier.com http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Peltier-Lawsuit.html?ex=1019137866&ei=1&en=efe4e0d7ccb6915b HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company --part1_199.4f4bdaf.29e1dcd1_boundary-- From daemon Tue Apr 9 11:37:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g39Fbe517295 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.baltimorepolice.org ([151.196.160.20]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g39FbdM17290 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BPD_WEB-Message_Server by mail.baltimorepolice.org with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 11:12:20 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.5 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 11:37:35 -0400 From: "Pamela Shaw" To: Subject: Glock 40 Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g39FbdM17291 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 120 See http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-glock-kb.html Pamela K. Shaw Phone - 410.396.2668 Fax - 410.783.5194 From daemon Wed Apr 10 12:49:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3AGnwr07701 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:49:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3AGnv507695 for forens; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:49:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten Message-Id: <200204101649.g3AGnv507695@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu> To: forens Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 573 Please respond to Franco.Taroni@ipsc.unil.ch to get the MS-Word document that he posted. Dear Colleagues, I take the liberty to use email to advertise for a position open at our Institute A new development in our Institute allow us to increase the academic staff in forensic science. The advertisement is coming out today and I wonder if you could post it or make it known around you. I join the published advertisement in 3 languages (French, English and German) but you can post it only in one of the version. Thank you for your help. Kind regards, Franco Taroni From daemon Wed Apr 10 20:53:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3B0r8016104 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (oe45.pav1.hotmail.com [64.4.30.17]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3B0r7M16099 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:53:07 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [64.230.17.89] From: "Jessica Ross" To: Subject: A little something for the anthropologists Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:50:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1E0D1.6A77B020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Apr 2002 00:53:07.0410 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E8BAB20:01C1E0F3] Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1109 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1E0D1.6A77B020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's too late to save my paper, but now I'm insatiably curious: what is = the most common or useful aging technique you know of, and why?=20 Yours, jessica ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1E0D1.6A77B020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It's too late to save my paper, but now = I'm=20 insatiably curious: what is the most common or useful aging technique = you know=20 of, and why?
 
Yours, = jessica
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1E0D1.6A77B020-- From daemon Thu Apr 11 03:05:56 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3B75uO20607 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 03:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from front-mail.go.com.jo ([196.27.0.237]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3B75sM20602 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 03:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Laptop ([194.165.157.202]) by front-mail.go.com.jo with ESMTP id <20020411070617.QHHX1388.front-mail@Laptop> for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 10:06:17 +0300 From: "Hani Jahshan" To: Subject: expired Tear gas Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 10:05:51 +0300 Message-ID: <000001c1e127$516a0000$ca9da5c2@Laptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C1E140.76B73800" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3593 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C1E140.76B73800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is their any unexpected harmful effect for the use of expired Tear gas (CS).? ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C1E140.76B73800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is their any unexpected harmful effect for the = use of expired Tear gas (CS).?

 

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C1E140.76B73800-- From daemon Thu Apr 11 16:11:56 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3BKBuV02784 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.urdirect.net (alpha.urdirect.net [216.136.28.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3BKBtM02779 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sany60q25j39h5 (pm3a-36.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.115]) by alpha.urdirect.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id PAA30802 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:11:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha.urdirect.net: Host pm3a-36.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.115] claimed to be sany60q25j39h5 Message-ID: <002e01c1e195$15626070$731c88d8@sany60q25j39h5> Reply-To: "Mike Wise" From: "Mike Wise" To: "'forens-l'" Subject: PreZerve Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:11:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1E16B.2BB66AD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1509 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1E16B.2BB66AD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just received an ad today from Lynn Peavey Co re their product called = "PreZerve". They claim it will biological degradation of bio samples = collected at a scene. You dip the swab in this liquid, and then swab = the stain. =20 Does anyone have any experience with this and any recommendations on = it? Mike W.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1E16B.2BB66AD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just received an ad today from Lynn = Peavey Co re=20 their product called "PreZerve".  They claim it will biological = degradation=20 of bio samples collected at a scene.  You dip the swab in this = liquid, and=20 then swab the stain.  
 
Does anyone have any experience with = this and any=20 recommendations  on it?
Mike = W. 
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C1E16B.2BB66AD0-- From daemon Mon Apr 15 16:32:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3FKWNh14849 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mshp.state.mo.us (mshp.state.mo.us [168.166.193.247]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3FKWKM14844 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: insulated wires To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: smithj@mshp.state.mo.us Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:27:17 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GHQPROD/MSHP400(Release 5.0.9 |November 16, 2001) at 04/15/2002 03:27:19 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1282 Does anyone out there have information on "dual conductivity cables" such as common speaker wires? One half of the wire has a white stripe on one side (polarity). I am comparing a questioned and known. More info: All other class characteristics are similar; physical, chemical, compositional. The Questioned cable is about 2-3 ft long. The known is about 3 ft long. The white stripping on each piece is consistent from one end to another. There is no variation in the stripe within the lengths submitted. Just their stripes are different compared to one and another. There were insufficient toolmarks on the questioned ends for comparisons. 1. If you found similar extrusion marks on the plastic insulation between a Q and K cable BUT found a variation in the white stripe in brightness and width between Q and K, what would you conclude? 2. Can the stripping change in the same batch? 3. If the stripe is different does this mean a different batch from the same extruder? 4. If the stripe changes gradually within same batch how much length does this change occur in? Would you say; a) Q and K could have come from same source OR b) Q and K were extruded/ manufacted from same plant. Thanks in advance for any info/ expert opinion you might have. Jenny From daemon Mon Apr 15 17:21:39 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3FLLdc15734 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3FLLaM15729 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pdb (pm9-85.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.85]) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.1/8.12.1/jjb-sd) with SMTP id g3FLLVtw011153 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200204152121.g3FLLVtw011153@ns1.nothingbutnet.net> X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@FSALab.com X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:20:51 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: insulated wires In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g3FLLbM15730 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1746 I think first you have to be sure that the "extrusion" marks are that, and not designed features of the surface of the insulation. Then you have to look at long lengths of similar wire to see how frequently the stripe width and extrusion marks change. I don't think you can give a very good answer to either question you ask without this information. Pete Barnett At 03:27 PM 4/15/2002 -0500, smithj@mshp.state.mo.us wrote: >Does anyone out there have information on "dual conductivity cables"  such >as common speaker wires?  One half of the wire has a white stripe on one >side (polarity).  I am comparing a questioned and known. > >More info:  All other class characteristics are similar; physical, >chemical, compositional.  The Questioned cable is about 2-3 ft long.  The >known is about 3 ft long.  The white stripping on each piece is consistent >from one end to another.  There is no variation in the stripe within the >lengths submitted.  Just their stripes are different compared to one and >another.  There were insufficient toolmarks on the questioned ends for >comparisons. > >1.  If you found similar extrusion marks on the plastic insulation between >a Q and K cable BUT found a variation in the white stripe in brightness and >width between Q and K, what would you conclude? > >2.  Can the stripping change in the same batch? > >3.  If the stripe is different does this mean a different batch from the >same extruder? > >4.  If the stripe changes gradually within same batch how much length does >this change occur in? > > Would you say; > >a)  Q and K could have come from same source OR > >b)  Q and K were extruded/ manufacted from same plant. > >Thanks in advance for any info/ expert opinion you might have. >Jenny > From daemon Tue Apr 16 09:08:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3GD8to27724 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.nist.gov (email.nist.gov [129.6.2.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3GD8sM27719 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goodpaster (h179112.nist.gov [129.6.179.112]) by email.nist.gov (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g3GD8qvV018973 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20020416090124.00b87860@mailserver.nist.gov> X-Sender: jgoodpas@mailserver.nist.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:05:35 -0400 To: Forensic Science Mailing List From: John Goodpaster Subject: Quote Origins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 906 Greetings, I send my apologies as this issue has already been discussed on this list. . . I need a reminder; is there a consensus on what the origin of this quote is? “[Physical evidence] does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong; it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent - only its interpretation can err. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value.” Thanks! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 ******************************************************** From daemon Tue Apr 16 09:37:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3GDbZ228783 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.urdirect.net (alpha.urdirect.net [216.136.28.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3GDbXM28776 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sany60q25j39h5 (pm3a-45.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.124]) by alpha.urdirect.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id IAA21943; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 08:36:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha.urdirect.net: Host pm3a-45.satx.urdirect.net [216.136.28.124] claimed to be sany60q25j39h5 Message-ID: <003701c1e554$2e0d1f30$7c1c88d8@sany60q25j39h5> Reply-To: "Mike Wise" From: "Mike Wise" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" , "John Goodpaster" References: <4.1.20020416090124.00b87860@mailserver.nist.gov> Subject: Re: Quote Origins Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:36:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1188 That was from Paul L. Kirk wasn't it??? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Goodpaster" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:05 AM Subject: Quote Origins > Greetings, > > I send my apologies as this issue has already been discussed on this list. . . > > I need a reminder; is there a consensus on what the origin of this quote is? > > "[Physical evidence] does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement > of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is > factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong; it cannot perjure > itself, it cannot be wholly absent - only its interpretation can err. Only > human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value." > > Thanks! > > John Goodpaster > > > ******************************************************** > John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. > Analytical Chemistry Division > National Institute of Standards and Technology > 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 > Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 > > Phone: (301) 975-3142 > FAX: (301) 977-0685 > ******************************************************** > From daemon Tue Apr 16 10:35:48 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3GEZmT29952 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3GEZkM29947 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.253.81.3]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020416143536.WMQU14788.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:35:36 +0100 Message-ID: <003e01c1e553$c7e05a60$0351fd3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: Distinguishing Soil Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:33:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C1E55C.1D669AA0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 28696 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C1E55C.1D669AA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003B_01C1E55C.1D669AA0" ------=_NextPart_001_003B_01C1E55C.1D669AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nature List Members, I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one of = which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he = would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places = himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to = geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from = the grave? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_001_003B_01C1E55C.1D669AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nature

List Members,
 
I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one = of which=20 is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he would = have had to=20 step into the grave in order to dig it. He places himself at the scene, = but=20 denies activity. Is it possible to geologically or chemically = distinguish=20 between top soil and soil from the grave? Thank you for your attention = in this=20 matter.
 
Best Wishes
 
Satish Sekar

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[131.128.1.132]) by pete.uri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3GF3eW01046 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:03:40 -0400 Received: from DIRECTOR ([131.128.32.129]) by terms.uri.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g3GF6u922089 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:06:56 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20020416110909.00d89a70@postoffice.uri.edu> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:09:09 -0400 To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" From: Dennis Hilliard Subject: Re: Quote Origins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3108 I have a copy of Crime Investigation: Physical Evidence and the Police Laboratory, Paul L. Kirk, Ph.D. Interscience Publishers, Inc. New York 1953. The quote appears witin the following paragraph on page 4 of Chapter 1. "Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as silent evidence against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen that he deposits or collects-all these and more bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong; it cannot perjure itself; it cannot be wholly absent. Only its interpretation can err. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value." At first I confused this with a similar quote: "Physical evidence cannot be intimidated. It does not forget. It doesn't get excited at the moment something is happening--like people do. It sits ther and waits to be detected, preserved, evaluated and explained. This is what physical evidence is all about. In the course of a trial, defense and prosecuting attorneys may lie, witnesses may, the defendant certainly may lie. Even the judge may lie. Only the evidence never lies." Herbert L. MacDonell The Evidence Never Lies Alfred A Lewis with Herbert L. MacDonell Dell Publishing Company, New York 1984 Dennis At 09:36 AM 4/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: >That was from Paul L. Kirk wasn't it??? > >Mike >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Goodpaster" >To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" >Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:05 AM >Subject: Quote Origins > > >> Greetings, >> >> I send my apologies as this issue has already been discussed on this list. >. . >> >> I need a reminder; is there a consensus on what the origin of this quote >is? >> >> "[Physical evidence] does not forget. It is not confused by the >excitement >> of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is >> factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong; it cannot perjure >> itself, it cannot be wholly absent - only its interpretation can err. >Only >> human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its >value." >> >> Thanks! >> >> John Goodpaster >> >> >> ******************************************************** >> John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. >> Analytical Chemistry Division >> National Institute of Standards and Technology >> 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 >> Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 >> >> Phone: (301) 975-3142 >> FAX: (301) 977-0685 >> ******************************************************** >> > > Sincerely, Dennis C. Hilliard, M.S. Director - RI State Crime Laboratory Adjunct Assistant Professor - BioMedical Sciences 220 Fogarty Hall - URI 41 Lower College Road Kingston, RI 02881-0809 Tel: 401-874-2893 Fax: 401-874-2181 email: dch@uri.edu From daemon Tue Apr 16 11:34:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3GFYHf01474 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3GFYGM01469 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 16 Apr 2002 15:34:17 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFJGHV>; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:32:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Daniel Nippes To: "'John Goodpaster'" , Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: RE: Quote Origins Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:32:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1E55B.FBFE5BA0" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4418 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E55B.FBFE5BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The quote appears in the introduction of Crime Investigation by Paul L. Kirk. My edition is 1953 (Interscience Publishers,Inc.)page 4. Dan Nippes Regional Crime Lab Ft. Pierce, Florida -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:06 AM To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: Quote Origins Greetings, I send my apologies as this issue has already been discussed on this list. . . I need a reminder; is there a consensus on what the origin of this quote is? "[Physical evidence] does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong; it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent - only its interpretation can err. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value." Thanks! John Goodpaster ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 ******************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E55B.FBFE5BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Quote Origins

The quote appears in the introduction of Crime = Investigation by Paul L. Kirk.  My edition is 1953 (Interscience = Publishers,Inc.)page 4.

Dan Nippes
Regional Crime Lab
Ft. Pierce, Florida

-----Original Message-----
From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov= ]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:06 AM
To: Forensic Science Mailing List
Subject: Quote Origins


Greetings,

I send my apologies as this issue has already been = discussed on this list. . .

I need a reminder; is there a consensus on what the = origin of this quote is?

"[Physical evidence] does not forget.  It is not = confused by the excitement
of the moment.  It is not absent because human = witnesses are.  It is
factual evidence.  Physical evidence cannot be = wrong; it cannot perjure
itself, it cannot be wholly absent - only its = interpretation can err.  Only
human failure to find it, study and understand it, = can diminish its value."

Thanks!

John Goodpaster


********************************************************=
John V. Goodpaster, = Ph.D.       =         =           
Analytical Chemistry Division   =         =           
National Institute of Standards and Technology  =   
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392
Gaithersburg, MD  20899-8392

Phone:  (301) 975-3142
FAX:     (301) 977-0685
********************************************************=

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E55B.FBFE5BA0-- From daemon Tue Apr 16 17:43:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3GLhiN08841 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3GLheM08836 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 16 Apr 2002 21:43:40 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFJ21G>; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:42:25 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:42:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1E58F.982EC310" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4227 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E58F.982EC310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition (sand, clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the grave was of any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more than one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the site can be characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular size, color, consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt found on the suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very specialized type of examination and there aren't very many experienced practitioners. There was only one person doing soil analysis in the entire state of Florida a few years ago, and now I don't think there's anyone doing it here. If you can't find anyone doing this type of examination locally, you may have to go out of your state/region for assistance. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist -----Original Message----- From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Distinguishing Soil Importance: High List Members, I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from the grave? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E58F.982EC310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Distinguishing Soil

Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition = (sand, clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the = grave was of any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig = through more than one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various = depths at the site can be characterized by organic and mineral = composition, granular size, color, consistency, moisture content, etc., = and compared to dirt found on the suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, = this is a very specialized type of examination and there aren't very = many experienced practitioners. There was only one person doing soil = analysis in the entire state of Florida a few years ago, and now I = don't think there's anyone doing it here. If you can't find anyone = doing this type of examination locally, you may have to go out of your = state/region for assistance.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist

-----Original Message-----
From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.c= om]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Distinguishing Soil
Importance: High


 
List Members,

I am dealing with a case where a person denies = several acts - one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect = that if he is lying he would have had to step into the grave in order = to dig it. He places himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it = possible to geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and = soil from the grave? Thank you for your attention in this = matter.

Best Wishes

Satish Sekar

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E58F.982EC310-- From daemon Tue Apr 16 20:51:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3H0pvm11272 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.inland.net (ns1.inland.net [207.155.59.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3H0ptM11267 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (iii-pm3-3-44.inland.net [209.85.112.155]) by ns1.inland.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA01498; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004501c1e5aa$1aa2ea50$9b7055d1@computer> From: "M. H." To: "Robert Parsons" , References: Subject: Re: Distinguishing Soil Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:52:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C1E56F.6BD11680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 6132 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C1E56F.6BD11680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Distinguishing SoilWouldn't you expect for the soil dug from the = bottom of the hole to be placed around the hole in the process of = digging? And couldn't a person step in it without ever stepping into = the hole? M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert Parsons=20 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition (sand, clay, = humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the grave was of = any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more = than one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the = site can be characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular = size, color, consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt = found on the suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very = specialized type of examination and there aren't very many experienced = practitioners. There was only one person doing soil analysis in the = entire state of Florida a few years ago, and now I don't think there's = anyone doing it here. If you can't find anyone doing this type of = examination locally, you may have to go out of your state/region for = assistance. Bob Parsons, F-ABC=20 Forensic Chemist=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34=20 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu=20 Subject: Distinguishing Soil=20 Importance: High=20 =20 List Members,=20 I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one of = which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he = would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places = himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to = geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from = the grave? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes=20 Satish Sekar=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C1E56F.6BD11680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Distinguishing Soil
Wouldn't you expect for the soil dug = from the=20 bottom of the hole to be placed around the hole in the process of = digging? =20 And couldn't a person step in it without ever stepping into the=20 hole?
 
M. Horton
Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair = teacher/Dept.=20 Chair
Perris High School; Perris, CA
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Robert=20 Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 = 2:42=20 PM
Subject: RE: Distinguishing = Soil

Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition = (sand,=20 clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the grave = was of=20 any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more = than one=20 type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the site can = be=20 characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular size, = color,=20 consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt found on the = suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very specialized type of=20 examination and there aren't very many experienced practitioners. = There was=20 only one person doing soil analysis in the entire state of Florida a = few years=20 ago, and now I don't think there's anyone doing it here. If you can't = find=20 anyone doing this type of examination locally, you may have to go out = of your=20 state/region for assistance.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist=20

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.co= m]=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34 =
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject:=20 Distinguishing Soil
Importance: High =



List Members,

I am dealing with a case where a person denies = several acts -=20 one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is = lying he=20 would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places = himself at=20 the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to geologically or = chemically=20 distinguish between top soil and soil from the grave? Thank you for = your=20 attention in this matter.

Best Wishes

Satish Sekar

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C1E56F.6BD11680-- From daemon Wed Apr 17 01:24:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3H5OSk15295 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3H5ORM15290 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SaBrInY14@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.19d.d80717 (4569) for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:24:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SaBrInY14@aol.com Message-ID: <19d.d80717.29ee6107@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:24:23 EDT Subject: Information To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 412 Hey everyone, Im a junior in high school, and I was added to this mailing list in hopes that i could get some help from people who knew what they were talking about. Im really interested in pursuing a career in Forensic Science. If you have any information on colleges around the Massachussetts/New England area, or courses i would want to take, please send me an email. Thank you! Sabrina Wood From daemon Wed Apr 17 09:30:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HDU5O20935 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailer.fsu.edu (mailer.fsu.edu [128.186.6.122]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HDTuM20922 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dalenute (dhcp148233.hec.fsu.edu [128.186.148.233]) by mailer.fsu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.1) with SMTP id g3HDTeN27374; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dale Nute" To: "M. H." , "Robert Parsons" , Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:30:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1E5F2.74B12FA0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <004501c1e5aa$1aa2ea50$9b7055d1@computer> Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 8013 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1E5F2.74B12FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Distinguishing SoilA good point. The possibility of innocent contact as well as contamination with each succeeding step in soil makes the soil on the shoes a poor bet. Soil on the knees of the trousers is better evidence but requires a lot of attention to particle sizing as only the fine components will adhere to the cloth. Also if the grave is excavated using archelogical techniques, you may be able to find the shoe tracks in the bottom of the grave. -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of M. H. Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:52 PM To: Robert Parsons; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Distinguishing Soil Wouldn't you expect for the soil dug from the bottom of the hole to be placed around the hole in the process of digging? And couldn't a person step in it without ever stepping into the hole? M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition (sand, clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the grave was of any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more than one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the site can be characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular size, color, consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt found on the suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very specialized type of examination and there aren't very many experienced practitioners. There was only one person doing soil analysis in the entire state of Florida a few years ago, and now I don't think there's anyone doing it here. If you can't find anyone doing this type of examination locally, you may have to go out of your state/region for assistance. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist -----Original Message----- From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Distinguishing Soil Importance: High List Members, I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from the grave? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1E5F2.74B12FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Distinguishing Soil
A good=20 point.  The possibility of innocent contact as well as = contamination =20 with each succeeding step in soil makes the soil on the shoes a poor = bet. =20 Soil on the knees of the trousers is better evidence but requires a lot = of=20 attention to particle sizing as only the fine components will adhere to = the=20 cloth.  Also if the grave is excavated using archelogical = techniques, you=20 may be able to find the shoe tracks in the bottom of the=20 grave.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu=20 [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of = M.=20 H.
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:52 PM
To: = Robert=20 Parsons; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Distinguishing = Soil

Wouldn't you expect for the soil dug = from the=20 bottom of the hole to be placed around the hole in the process of=20 digging?  And couldn't a person step in it without ever stepping = into the=20 hole?
 
M. Horton
Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair = teacher/Dept.=20 Chair
Perris High School; Perris, CA
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Robert=20 Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 = 2:42=20 PM
Subject: RE: Distinguishing = Soil

Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing = composition (sand,=20 clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the = grave was of=20 any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more = than=20 one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the = site can=20 be characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular size, = color,=20 consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt found on = the=20 suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very specialized type = of=20 examination and there aren't very many experienced practitioners. = There was=20 only one person doing soil analysis in the entire state of Florida a = few=20 years ago, and now I don't think there's anyone doing it here. If = you can't=20 find anyone doing this type of examination locally, you may have to = go out=20 of your state/region for assistance.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist=20

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.co= m]=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34 =
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject:=20 Distinguishing Soil
Importance: = High



List Members, =

I am dealing with a case where a person denies = several acts=20 - one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is = lying=20 he would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He = places=20 himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to = geologically or=20 chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from the grave? = Thank you=20 for your attention in this matter.

Best Wishes

Satish Sekar =

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C1E5F2.74B12FA0-- From daemon Wed Apr 17 10:56:54 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HEusM22338 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.nist.gov (email.nist.gov [129.6.2.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HEuqM22322 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goodpaster (h179112.nist.gov [129.6.179.112]) by email.nist.gov (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g3HEulvV016838 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20020417105301.00b87270@mailserver.nist.gov> X-Sender: jgoodpas@mailserver.nist.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:53:29 -0400 To: Forensic Science Mailing List From: John Goodpaster Subject: Quote Origins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 393 Thanks to all for the info on the Kirk quote! John ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 ******************************************************** From daemon Wed Apr 17 12:04:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HG42726808 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com (imo-m03.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.6]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HG41M26801 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SkipnCar@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.171.c36eae4 (18558) for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:04:01 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipnCar@aol.com Message-ID: <171.c36eae4.29eef6f0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:04:00 EDT Subject: John Houde To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 110 John, would you e-mail me? I have a question for you and do not have your address. Thanks, Carla Noziglia From daemon Wed Apr 17 12:17:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HGHbR27220 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web20507.mail.yahoo.com (web20507.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.142]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3HGHaM27215 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20020417161735.72319.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.232.103.80] by web20507.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:17:35 PDT Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:17:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Abercrombie Subject: Project Exile To: Forensic Science Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1765 List members, My request has a number of parts, so please feel free to answer any of my questions that you can . . . Our area/agency may soon be actively involved in a form of 'Project Exile'. As a supervisor who may have some level of responsibility with the forensic aspect(s) of the program, I have some questions from those who may be familiar with it. I've been given some (very likely) misinformation regarding the processing of weapons - specifically, I've been told that the weapons must be processed in the field via cyanocrylate fuming using a 'wand'. I'm sure that the actual intention/wording is for the weapons to simply be processed for potential latents. I've searched the web and gotten a lot of information, but have still haven't found some fundamentals, such as . . First - does anyone have a website/URL that has the actual wording and provisions of the program? Second - our field evidence techs have never used the cyanoacrylate 'wands'. Please give me some idea of the advantages/disadvantages of their use in the field. Safety issues are paramount, but any information will be helpful. Last - do any active practitioners of latent print processing have any data that shows their success rate with processing handguns - specifically the percentage of processing that generates usable latent prints? Feel free to send your resposes directly to me via email, snail mail or phone (if you don't want to bore the entire list). Thanks, Tom Abercrombie, Criminalist III/Supervisor Oakland PD Crime Lab 455 Seventh Street - Room 608 Oakland, CA 94607 Phone - 510.238.3386 FAX - 510.238.6555 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From daemon Wed Apr 17 12:52:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HGqk127848 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3HGqjM27843 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 17 Apr 2002 16:52:46 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFJLAQ>; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:51:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: RE: Project Exile Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:51:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.1A0CF500" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7633 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.1A0CF500 Content-Type: text/plain Tom, I've never before heard of Project Exile, but a quick search of the name on Yahoo came up with these two official sites: http://www.projectexile.com/ http://www.vahv.org/Exile/ I didn't see any instructions for participants in the program (these appear to be public information sites), but both sites list points of contact for more information. The director of the program for the State of Virginia is a Michael Costigan, who can be reached at mcostigan@dcjs.state.va.us. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Tom Abercrombie [mailto:jta@rocketmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:18 To: Forensic Science Mailing List Subject: Project Exile List members, My request has a number of parts, so please feel free to answer any of my questions that you can . . . Our area/agency may soon be actively involved in a form of 'Project Exile'. As a supervisor who may have some level of responsibility with the forensic aspect(s) of the program, I have some questions from those who may be familiar with it. I've been given some (very likely) misinformation regarding the processing of weapons - specifically, I've been told that the weapons must be processed in the field via cyanocrylate fuming using a 'wand'. I'm sure that the actual intention/wording is for the weapons to simply be processed for potential latents. I've searched the web and gotten a lot of information, but have still haven't found some fundamentals, such as . . First - does anyone have a website/URL that has the actual wording and provisions of the program? Second - our field evidence techs have never used the cyanoacrylate 'wands'. Please give me some idea of the advantages/disadvantages of their use in the field. Safety issues are paramount, but any information will be helpful. Last - do any active practitioners of latent print processing have any data that shows their success rate with processing handguns - specifically the percentage of processing that generates usable latent prints? Feel free to send your resposes directly to me via email, snail mail or phone (if you don't want to bore the entire list). Thanks, Tom Abercrombie, Criminalist III/Supervisor Oakland PD Crime Lab 455 Seventh Street - Room 608 Oakland, CA 94607 Phone - 510.238.3386 FAX - 510.238.6555 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.1A0CF500 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Project Exile

Tom,

I've never before heard of Project Exile, but a quick = search of the name on Yahoo came up with these two official = sites:

http://www.projectexile.com/
http://www.vahv.org/Exile/

I didn't see any instructions for participants in the = program (these appear to be public information sites), but both sites = list points of contact for more information.  The director of the = program for the State of Virginia is a Michael Costigan, who can be = reached at

mcostigan@dcjs.state.va.us.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Abercrombie [mailto:jta@rocketmail.com]=
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:18
To: Forensic Science Mailing List
Subject: Project Exile


List members,

My request has a number of parts, so please feel = free
to answer any of my questions that you can . . = .

Our area/agency may soon be actively involved in = a
form of 'Project Exile'.  As a supervisor who = may have
some level of responsibility with the = forensic
aspect(s) of the program, I have some questions = from
those who may be familiar with it.  I've been = given
some (very likely) misinformation regarding = the
processing of weapons - specifically, I've been = told
that the weapons must be processed in the field = via
cyanocrylate fuming using a 'wand'.  I'm sure = that the
actual intention/wording is for the weapons to = simply
be processed for potential latents.  I've = searched the
web and gotten a lot of information, but have = still
haven't found some fundamentals, such as . .

First - does anyone have a website/URL that has = the
actual wording and provisions of the program?

Second - our field evidence techs have never used = the
cyanoacrylate 'wands'.  Please give me some = idea of
the advantages/disadvantages of their use in = the
field.  Safety issues are paramount, but = any
information will be helpful.

Last - do any active practitioners of latent = print
processing have any data that shows their success = rate
with processing handguns - specifically the = percentage
of processing that generates usable latent = prints?

Feel free to send your resposes directly to me = via
email, snail mail or phone (if you don't want to = bore
the entire list).

Thanks,

Tom Abercrombie, Criminalist III/Supervisor
Oakland PD Crime Lab
455 Seventh Street - Room 608
Oakland, CA   94607

Phone - 510.238.3386
FAX   - 510.238.6555


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with = TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.1A0CF500-- From daemon Wed Apr 17 12:53:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HGr6927883 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3HGr5M27878 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 17 Apr 2002 16:53:06 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFJLAS>; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:51:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:51:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.289DE660" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7188 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.289DE660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sure, but you wouldn't expect to find it in their pockets, waistband or pant leg cuffs - all of which are likely if they're doing the digging. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 20:52 To: Robert Parsons; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Distinguishing Soil Wouldn't you expect for the soil dug from the bottom of the hole to be placed around the hole in the process of digging? And couldn't a person step in it without ever stepping into the hole? M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition (sand, clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the grave was of any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more than one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the site can be characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular size, color, consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt found on the suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very specialized type of examination and there aren't very many experienced practitioners. There was only one person doing soil analysis in the entire state of Florida a few years ago, and now I don't think there's anyone doing it here. If you can't find anyone doing this type of examination locally, you may have to go out of your state/region for assistance. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist -----Original Message----- From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [ mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com ] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Distinguishing Soil Importance: High List Members, I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from the grave? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.289DE660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: Distinguishing Soil
Sure, but you wouldn't expect to find it in their pockets, waistband or pant leg cuffs - all of which are likely if they're doing the digging.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: M. H. [mailto:scitch@inland.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 20:52
To: Robert Parsons; forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Distinguishing Soil

Wouldn't you expect for the soil dug from the bottom of the hole to be placed around the hole in the process of digging?  And couldn't a person step in it without ever stepping into the hole?
 
M. Horton
Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair
Perris High School; Perris, CA
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: Distinguishing Soil

Yes. Soil exists in layers of differing composition (sand, clay, humus, etc., with different sub-types of each), so if the grave was of any significant depth it's likely the digger had to dig through more than one type of soil layer. The type of soil at various depths at the site can be characterized by organic and mineral composition, granular size, color, consistency, moisture content, etc., and compared to dirt found on the suspect's clothing. Unfortunately, this is a very specialized type of examination and there aren't very many experienced practitioners. There was only one person doing soil analysis in the entire state of Florida a few years ago, and now I don't think there's anyone doing it here. If you can't find anyone doing this type of examination locally, you may have to go out of your state/region for assistance.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist

-----Original Message-----
From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:34
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Distinguishing Soil
Importance: High



List Members,

I am dealing with a case where a person denies several acts - one of which is digging a makeshift grave. I suspect that if he is lying he would have had to step into the grave in order to dig it. He places himself at the scene, but denies activity. Is it possible to geologically or chemically distinguish between top soil and soil from the grave? Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Best Wishes

Satish Sekar

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E630.289DE660-- From daemon Wed Apr 17 16:06:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HK66O01591 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HK64M01586 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Solo9550LS ([12.245.26.119]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020417200603.URLP1143.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@Solo9550LS>; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:06:03 +0000 Message-ID: <001601c1e64b$403fe730$771af50c@Solo9550LS> Reply-To: "Daryl W. Clemens" From: "Daryl W. Clemens" To: "Tom Abercrombie" , "Forensic Science Mailing List" References: <20020417161735.72319.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Project Exile Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:05:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3418 Tom, I haven't heard of 'Project Exile'. I can't imagine them requiring the processing of weapons in the field, but I suppose I've heard dumber things. The wands are a pretty good tool, especially if you use the cartridges which have built in fluorescent dye. The main problem with using them in the field is that you either need a box or something to contain the fumes, or a lot of patience. You may also go through several cartridges processing one item. I think they are good for fuming items that can't otherwise be processed, and not half bad for vehicle interiors. But I've always found that careful collection, and use of the fuming chamber back at the building is superior. As far as safety goes, the main source of injury is burning yourself on the cartridges, as they get very hot in use. Second is that you are fuming without a hood to draw away the fumes. I'm not particularly sensitive to the fumes, but many people are. Obviously you want to use it in a manner that minimizes exposure to the fumes. There was an article in JFI which indicates that the recovery of latents from firearms runs about 10%, which seems fairly accurate based on my experience. Barnum, C., Klasey, D., "Factors Affecting the Recovery of Latent Prints on Firearms" Journal of Forensic Identification, 47(2), 1997, 141-149. Regards, Daryl W. Clemens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Abercrombie" To: "Forensic Science Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:17 PM Subject: Project Exile > List members, > > My request has a number of parts, so please feel free > to answer any of my questions that you can . . . > > Our area/agency may soon be actively involved in a > form of 'Project Exile'. As a supervisor who may have > some level of responsibility with the forensic > aspect(s) of the program, I have some questions from > those who may be familiar with it. I've been given > some (very likely) misinformation regarding the > processing of weapons - specifically, I've been told > that the weapons must be processed in the field via > cyanocrylate fuming using a 'wand'. I'm sure that the > actual intention/wording is for the weapons to simply > be processed for potential latents. I've searched the > web and gotten a lot of information, but have still > haven't found some fundamentals, such as . . > > First - does anyone have a website/URL that has the > actual wording and provisions of the program? > > Second - our field evidence techs have never used the > cyanoacrylate 'wands'. Please give me some idea of > the advantages/disadvantages of their use in the > field. Safety issues are paramount, but any > information will be helpful. > > Last - do any active practitioners of latent print > processing have any data that shows their success rate > with processing handguns - specifically the percentage > of processing that generates usable latent prints? > > Feel free to send your resposes directly to me via > email, snail mail or phone (if you don't want to bore > the entire list). > > Thanks, > > Tom Abercrombie, Criminalist III/Supervisor > Oakland PD Crime Lab > 455 Seventh Street - Room 608 > Oakland, CA 94607 > > Phone - 510.238.3386 > FAX - 510.238.6555 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > From daemon Wed Apr 17 17:13:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HLDAB02881 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HLD8M02876 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.74]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020417211253.ZIE29761.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:12:53 +0100 Message-ID: <008e01c1e654$71349f80$5054fd3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "Dale Nute" , "M. Horton" , "Robert Parsons" Subject: Re. Distinguishing Soil Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:11:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008A_01C1E65C.D1B27DC0" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 42114 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C1E65C.D1B27DC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_008B_01C1E65C.D1B27DC0" ------=_NextPart_001_008B_01C1E65C.D1B27DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunflower List Members Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and M. Horton for your = comments) which were very helpful in focussing my mind. My original = posting was simply to establish if it was possible to distinguish top = and bottom soil. Clearly, it is both in terms of the composition of top = and bottom soil and also potentially in terms of pollen and = ectoskeletons.=20 While taking the point about innocent contamination on board, the = circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it would still be = worth pursuing. Please advise after considering the following. The = circumstances are that there are two accused of the murder.=20 One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any involvement in the = murder and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, obviously including = the digging of the grave. The other (B) claims that while he was at the = scene (A) did everything including digging the grave while he (B) did = nothing of note. Consequently, if inside the grave soil traces were = found on the footwear of either one of them it would expose one or other = as a liar unless I have got that wrong.=20 In A's case any finding of soil from within the grave, whether displaced = or not, would be hard to explain to put it mildly. The question in his = case is what relevance could be put on negative results regarding his = clothes and footwear? Does this indicate that he wasn't in the grave at = any stage, or simply that no evidence that he was in it has been = obtained? Would such a finding (negative on A) necessarily mean that B = must have lied about A having dug the grave.=20 Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking into this - it is = also possible that pollen could link anyone that had been in grave or = soil associated with it to the grave as could ectoskeletons. Does this = approach make sense? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_001_008B_01C1E65C.D1B27DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunflower

List Members
 
Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and M. Horton for = your=20 comments) which were very helpful in focussing my mind. My original = posting was=20 simply to establish if it was possible to distinguish top and bottom = soil.=20 Clearly, it is both in terms of the composition of top and bottom soil = and also=20 potentially in terms of pollen and ectoskeletons.
 
While taking the point about innocent contamination on board, the=20 circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it would still be = worth=20 pursuing. Please advise after considering the following. The = circumstances are=20 that there are two accused of the murder.
 
One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any involvement in = the murder=20 and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, obviously including the = digging of=20 the grave. The other (B) claims that while he was at the scene (A) did=20 everything including digging the grave while he (B) did nothing of note. = Consequently, if inside the grave soil traces were found on the footwear = of=20 either one of them it would expose one or other as a liar unless I have = got that=20 wrong.
 
In A's case any finding of soil from within the grave, whether = displaced or=20 not, would be hard to explain to put it mildly. The question in his case = is what=20 relevance could be put on negative results regarding his clothes and = footwear?=20 Does this indicate that he wasn't in the grave at any stage, or simply = that no=20 evidence that he was in it has been obtained? Would such a finding = (negative on=20 A) necessarily mean that B must have lied about A having dug the grave. =
 
Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking into this - it = is also=20 possible that pollen could link anyone that had been in grave or soil = associated=20 with it to the grave as could ectoskeletons. Does this approach make = sense?=20 Thank you for your attention in this matter.
 
Best Wishes
 
Satish Sekar
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18:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HMp2M04254 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from COGrinder@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.32.258cb8d7 (4541) for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:51:00 -0400 (EDT) From: COGrinder@aol.com Message-ID: <32.258cb8d7.29ef5653@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:50:59 EDT Subject: List Removal To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 72 Please remove my e-mail account from the distribution list. Thank you. From daemon Wed Apr 17 19:05:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HN5Wx04662 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from picton-ext.nt.tas.gov.au (picton-ext.nt.tas.gov.au [202.7.15.63]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HN5UM04657 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from picton-ext.nt.tas.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picton-ext.nt.tas.gov.au (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g3HN5C514558 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:05:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from smtpmta.police.tas.gov.au (smtpmta.police.tas.gov.au [147.109.254.67]) by picton-ext.nt.tas.gov.au (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g3HN58r14515 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:05:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: List Removal To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.07a May 14, 2001 Message-ID: From: "Louise Wynen/FSST/TAS" Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:05:02 +1000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SMTPMTA/Servers/TAS(Release 5.07a |May 14, 2001) at 18/04/2002 09:05:04 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 168 Could you remove my name from the list please, Louise Wynen Forensic Science Service Tasmania 20 St Johns Ave Newtown TAS 7008 Ph. (03) 62785641 Fax. (03) 62785693 From daemon Wed Apr 17 19:52:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3HNqxg05479 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3HNqwM05474 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net (66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net [66.162.146.157]) by relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 802CADA3D for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:51:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) with SMTP; 17 Apr 2002 23:38:15 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Wed Apr 17 16:49:44 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:52:56 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.2.1 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:52:15 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: Project Exile Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g3HNqwM05475 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3007 Tom, I have heard of project exile. It appears to be a fairly successful gun crime intervention program that has the backing of the NRA. As far as field processing of firearms for latent prints, that seems to me not to be the best method. Cyano acrylate fuming wands are great and can be employed for that purpose, but they are expensive and not necessarily the best approach. Another method for getting identifiable information would be to swab the grips and slide serations if available so that they can be tested for DNA. This begs the questions of how many convicted sex offenders that use firearms are in the databank. It seems that you have a make work project that if successful will serve as a model for the rest of us to follow, but I think you will find that processing a lot of these firearm will yield negative results for useful latents. Don't forget, your QA/QC person will want you to write procedures and protocols, validate them before you can even dream of starting the project. Good luck! Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 >>> Tom Abercrombie 04/17 9:17 AM >>> List members, My request has a number of parts, so please feel free to answer any of my questions that you can . . . Our area/agency may soon be actively involved in a form of 'Project Exile'. As a supervisor who may have some level of responsibility with the forensic aspect(s) of the program, I have some questions from those who may be familiar with it. I've been given some (very likely) misinformation regarding the processing of weapons - specifically, I've been told that the weapons must be processed in the field via cyanocrylate fuming using a 'wand'. I'm sure that the actual intention/wording is for the weapons to simply be processed for potential latents. I've searched the web and gotten a lot of information, but have still haven't found some fundamentals, such as . . First - does anyone have a website/URL that has the actual wording and provisions of the program? Second - our field evidence techs have never used the cyanoacrylate 'wands'. Please give me some idea of the advantages/disadvantages of their use in the field. Safety issues are paramount, but any information will be helpful. Last - do any active practitioners of latent print processing have any data that shows their success rate with processing handguns - specifically the percentage of processing that generates usable latent prints? Feel free to send your resposes directly to me via email, snail mail or phone (if you don't want to bore the entire list). Thanks, Tom Abercrombie, Criminalist III/Supervisor Oakland PD Crime Lab 455 Seventh Street - Room 608 Oakland, CA 94607 Phone - 510.238.3386 FAX - 510.238.6555 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From daemon Wed Apr 17 20:17:13 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3I0HDZ06050 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.inland.net (ns1.inland.net [207.155.59.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3I0HAM06045 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (iii-pm3-2-45.inland.net [209.85.112.108]) by ns1.inland.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05152; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007201c1e66e$634e9550$6c7055d1@computer> From: "M. H." To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" , Cc: "Dale Nute" , "Robert Parsons" References: <008e01c1e654$71349f80$5054fd3e@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Re. Distinguishing Soil Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:17:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01C1E633.B5DD8A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 45985 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C1E633.B5DD8A00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_006D_01C1E633.B5DD8A00" ------=_NextPart_001_006D_01C1E633.B5DD8A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SunflowerWere there no footprints at the scene? I realize that the = inside of the grave was eventually filled in, but how about around the = grave and leading up to the grave, tire tracks? There must have been = something. How about trace evidence on the body; hairs, car carpet = fibers, something that could be connected with A or B? A murder weapon? That's a great question about the meaning of a negative result and I'll = leave that to someone more qualified than myself. It certainly makes sense what (I believe) Bob said that the person who = actually dug the grave would have dirt all over his body and clothes; = hair, neck, waist, inside shoes, pant legs, bottom of shoes, etc. You're correct that if A says he wasn't even there, then any finding = would prove him a liar. B will be more difficult as he has admitted = being at the scene. He is at least guilty of failing to report this = murder. He couldn't have possibly not asked why B was digging a hole. Good Luck, M. Horton Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair teacher/Dept. Chair Perris High School; Perris, CA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com=20 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu=20 Cc: Dale Nute ; M. Horton ; Robert Parsons=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:11 PM Subject: Re. Distinguishing Soil =20 List Members Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and M. Horton for your = comments) which were very helpful in focussing my mind. My original = posting was simply to establish if it was possible to distinguish top = and bottom soil. Clearly, it is both in terms of the composition of top = and bottom soil and also potentially in terms of pollen and = ectoskeletons.=20 While taking the point about innocent contamination on board, the = circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it would still be = worth pursuing. Please advise after considering the following. The = circumstances are that there are two accused of the murder.=20 One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any involvement in the = murder and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, obviously including = the digging of the grave. The other (B) claims that while he was at the = scene (A) did everything including digging the grave while he (B) did = nothing of note. Consequently, if inside the grave soil traces were = found on the footwear of either one of them it would expose one or other = as a liar unless I have got that wrong.=20 In A's case any finding of soil from within the grave, whether = displaced or not, would be hard to explain to put it mildly. The = question in his case is what relevance could be put on negative results = regarding his clothes and footwear? Does this indicate that he wasn't in = the grave at any stage, or simply that no evidence that he was in it has = been obtained? Would such a finding (negative on A) necessarily mean = that B must have lied about A having dug the grave.=20 Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking into this - it is = also possible that pollen could link anyone that had been in grave or = soil associated with it to the grave as could ectoskeletons. Does this = approach make sense? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_001_006D_01C1E633.B5DD8A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunflower
Were there no footprints at the scene?  I realize that the = inside of=20 the grave was eventually filled in, but how about around the grave and = leading=20 up to the grave, tire tracks?  There must have been = something.  How=20 about trace evidence on the body; hairs, car carpet fibers, something = that could=20 be connected with A or B?  A murder weapon?
That's a great question about the meaning of a negative result and = I'll=20 leave that to someone more qualified than myself.
It certainly makes sense what (I believe) Bob said that the person = who=20 actually dug the grave would have dirt all over his body and clothes; = hair,=20 neck, waist, inside shoes, pant legs, bottom of shoes, etc.
You're correct that if A says he wasn't even there, then any = finding would=20 prove him a liar.  B will be more difficult as he has admitted = being at the=20 scene.  He is at least guilty of failing to report this = murder.  He=20 couldn't have possibly not asked why B was digging a hole.
Good Luck,
 
M. Horton
Chem/Phys/Comp. Repair=20 teacher/Dept. Chair
Perris High School; Perris, CA
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com =
Cc: Dale Nute ; M. Horton ; Robert=20 Parsons
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 = 2:11=20 PM
Subject: Re. Distinguishing = Soil

=20

List Members
 
Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and M. Horton for = your=20 comments) which were very helpful in focussing my mind. My original = posting=20 was simply to establish if it was possible to distinguish top and = bottom soil.=20 Clearly, it is both in terms of the composition of top and bottom soil = and=20 also potentially in terms of pollen and ectoskeletons.
 
While taking the point about innocent contamination on board, the = circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it would still = be worth=20 pursuing. Please advise after considering the following. The = circumstances are=20 that there are two accused of the murder.
 
One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any involvement in = the=20 murder and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, obviously = including the=20 digging of the grave. The other (B) claims that while he was at the = scene (A)=20 did everything including digging the grave while he (B) did nothing of = note.=20 Consequently, if inside the grave soil traces were found on the = footwear of=20 either one of them it would expose one or other as a liar unless I = have got=20 that wrong.
 
In A's case any finding of soil from within the grave, whether = displaced=20 or not, would be hard to explain to put it mildly. The question in his = case is=20 what relevance could be put on negative results regarding his clothes = and=20 footwear? Does this indicate that he wasn't in the grave at any stage, = or=20 simply that no evidence that he was in it has been obtained? Would = such a=20 finding (negative on A) necessarily mean that B must have lied about A = having=20 dug the grave.
 
Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking into this - = it is=20 also possible that pollen could link anyone that had been in grave or = soil=20 associated with it to the grave as could ectoskeletons. Does this = approach=20 make sense? Thank you for your attention in this matter.
 
Best Wishes
 
Satish Sekar
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05:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil (dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil [204.208.124.132]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3I91RM12951 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dasmthkhn459.amedd.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:08:07 -0500 Message-ID: <109DBBFC212ED5119BED00A0C9EA3318439D76@dasmthgsh666.amedd.army.mil> From: "Hause, David W LTC GLWACH" To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re. Distinguishing Soil Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:12:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2407 Finding soil on the clothes of A may be corroborating evidence for B's story if, and only if, the soil found is at least markedly unusual if not unique to the grave site. We've gone around this list several times about what it means if you don't find evidence you are seeking: it means ONLY that you didn't find evidence. It is neutral to B's story. Dave Hause, Pathologist, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO David.Hause@cen.amedd.army.mil -----Original Message----- From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] List Members Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and M. Horton for your comments) which were very helpful in focussing my mind. My original posting was simply to establish if it was possible to distinguish top and bottom soil. Clearly, it is both in terms of the composition of top and bottom soil and also potentially in terms of pollen and ectoskeletons. While taking the point about innocent contamination on board, the circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it would still be worth pursuing. Please advise after considering the following. The circumstances are that there are two accused of the murder. One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any involvement in the murder and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, obviously including the digging of the grave. The other (B) claims that while he was at the scene (A) did everything including digging the grave while he (B) did nothing of note. Consequently, if inside the grave soil traces were found on the footwear of either one of them it would expose one or other as a liar unless I have got that wrong. In A's case any finding of soil from within the grave, whether displaced or not, would be hard to explain to put it mildly. The question in his case is what relevance could be put on negative results regarding his clothes and footwear? Does this indicate that he wasn't in the grave at any stage, or simply that no evidence that he was in it has been obtained? Would such a finding (negative on A) necessarily mean that B must have lied about A having dug the grave. Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking into this - it is also possible that pollen could link anyone that had been in grave or soil associated with it to the grave as could ectoskeletons. Does this approach make sense? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar From daemon Thu Apr 18 07:47:49 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3IBlnj15068 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lnmail02.dps.state.la.us ([170.145.0.100]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3IBlmM15063 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: PROJECT EXILE To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: CBecnel@dps.state.la.us Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:47:11 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on LNMAIL02/LADPS/us(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 04/18/2002 06:47:13 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1476 The middle district of Louisiana (US Atty.'s Office) is currently running the Project Exile Program. Its basic function is to prosecute Felons in possession of a firearm in Federal Court. The minimum prison term, if convicted, is 5 years in a Federal pen. The only requirement is a convicted felon in possession of a firearm. I think if dope is also found on these persons then the fines are even higher. Now, I'm not sure which documentation stipulates field processing firearms with a SG wand, but I can relay what we do. The seized firearms are treated no differently than firearms in other cases. Some are never processed for fingerprints, but most are test fired to show functionality. The ones that are processed for fingerprints come to the lab and are processed using our normal protocols as well as test fired. It seems to be an extremely effective program, and the local and federal law enforcement are putting MANY convicted felons in federal prison, where before they may not have even served any time. The only problem I have heard of is getting all the smaller departments to contact the federal authorities when they have an arrest that fits these criteria. Your local US Atty.'s office 'should' have heard of this, based on the widespread success it has found across the nation. I would suggest contacting them if any of you have never heard of it. Adam Becnel Louisiana State Police Crime Lab 376 E. Airport Road Baton Rouge, LA 70806 (225) 925-6016 From daemon Thu Apr 18 08:30:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3ICUUw15833 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3ICUSM15828 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.253.84.71]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020418123019.WZAX29761.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer>; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:30:19 +0100 Message-ID: <004c01c1e6d4$9c4afd60$4754fd3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Cc: "David Hause" , "M. Horton" , "Tilton Davis" , "Robert Parsons" , "Dale Nute" Subject: Reply Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:28:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01C1E6DC.FC7C9060"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 28811 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C1E6DC.FC7C9060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0049_01C1E6DC.FC7C9060" ------=_NextPart_001_0049_01C1E6DC.FC7C9060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leaves List Members Thanks to Lisa Mayer, David Hause and M. Horton for further replies. = There are a number of issues in this case, which is one of the most = complicated and intriguing cases that I have ever been involved in. I am = trying to test B's account against scientific evidence on a number of = points. To date there is no scientific evidence that unequivocally = implicates A yet B's account has been accepted at face value. I want to = test that account as if B is telling the truth then some scientific = evidence ought to implicate A or at least confirm aspects of B's = account.=20 At present B's account stands alone against A. Although negative = findings on their own mean that no evidence has been found I wonder = whether the combination of negative findings in a battery of different = tests on various issues would at least make it unlikely that B was = telling the truth about A. In short can ANY conclusions be drawn = regarding B's account, or would it simply be that in all tests there is = no corroborating evidence, but that it does not necessarily refute B's = account except for some aspects that could be proved untrue such as his = timing of events by maggot evidence for example and that the combination = of results simply add up to each of its components individually rather = than taken as a whole. Can any conclusions be drawn about B's = truthfulness, or lack of from the lack of corroborative scientific = evidence? The only scientific link that there is does not prove A's guilt. = Investigators have gone from Kastle-Meyer Reagent Testing straight to = SGM typing - the murder occurred before the advent of SGM+ STR typing. = DNA from the victim has been obtained from A's clothing and it has been = assumed that this came from the victim's blood. This case occurred in = 1998 without establishing the presence of blood through haemochromogen = or even that it was human blood through precipitin. A has an explanation = of that possible bloodstaining which needs to be tested. There are a = number of possible explanations of these findings which have not been = distinguished. Suffice to say A's involvement in the murder is one = possibility, but there are other possibilities that have not been = eliminated. Further tests are required to do so. This is a case where the best chance to do various test was at the time = of the offence, but that chance appears to have been missed on a number = of issues, although depending on the collection and storage of samples, = some if not all issues may still be resolvable even now.=20 Unfortunately nearly two weeks elapsed between the murder and the = discovery of an extensively fire-damaged and decomposing body. This = raised issues such as how long it would have taken to cause the extent = of damage suffered by by deceased, when the body was burned, what was = done with it after burning, or prior to it, how long would ambient = smells have remained in the area, how far would such smells have been = detectable, etc.? No comparison burns were conducted to resolve these = issues at the time. I would like to do so even now. Weapons were = recovered, but the damage to the body made it impossible to reach firm = conclusions about them. Footprints, etc. are of little use as the body = was not discovered for nearly two weeks and public access to this place = was not restricted in those two weeks meaning nearby footprints could = easily have been left by entirely innocent passers-by. Hence my interest = in evidence from inside the grave which cannot have an innocent = explanation - notwithstanding soil being displaced to near the grave = while digging it.. There are other issues relating to timing of events, whether the body = had been burned prior to being deposited in vegetation for up to 21 = hours or not prior to burial or not? I hope to have tests conducted on = this issue. Analysis of maggots can tell a bit about certain issues = including potentially if B is lying about when the body was burned.=20 It is in the context of so much being possible, but so little being done = to confirm or refute B's account that I have a deep sense of unease in = relying uncritically on B in the absence of the results of such = scientific analysis, especially as B has a strong motivation for = implicating A, namely minimising his own involvement in the crime and = cover-up. It is of course possible that B is telling the truth about A, = but given the benefit to B in implicating A - lower sentence, etc. I = think it desirable to seek as much corroborative, or refutive evidence = as possible. Apologies about the question of negative findings, but I am relatively = new to this list - just a few months. Thank you for your attention in = this matter and I do take your point regarding the soil needing to be = sufficiently unique. That was partly why I was interested in the pollen = and ectoskeletons as well - hoping the combination will be sufficiently = unique even if the individual components are not. Once again thank you = for your time and attention. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_001_0049_01C1E6DC.FC7C9060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leaves

List Members
 
Thanks to Lisa Mayer, David Hause and M. Horton for further = replies. There=20 are a number of issues in this case, which is one of the most = complicated and=20 intriguing cases that I have ever been involved in. I am trying to test = B's=20 account against scientific evidence on a number of points. To date there = is no=20 scientific evidence that unequivocally implicates A yet B's = account=20 has been accepted at face value. I want to test that account as if B is = telling=20 the truth then some scientific evidence ought to implicate A or at least = confirm=20 aspects of B's account.
 
At present B's account stands alone against A. Although negative = findings=20 on their own mean that no evidence has been found I wonder whether the=20 combination of negative findings in a battery of different tests on = various=20 issues would at least make it unlikely that B was telling the truth = about A. In=20 short can ANY conclusions be drawn regarding B's account, or would it = simply be=20 that in all tests there is no corroborating evidence, but that it = does not=20 necessarily refute B's account except for some aspects that could be = proved=20 untrue such as his timing of events by maggot evidence for example and = that the=20 combination of results simply add up to each of its components = individually=20 rather than taken as a whole. Can any conclusions be drawn about B's=20 truthfulness, or lack of from the lack of corroborative scientific=20 evidence?
 
The only scientific link that there is does not prove A's=20 guilt. Investigators have gone from Kastle-Meyer Reagent Testing = straight=20 to SGM typing - the murder occurred before the advent of SGM+ STR=20 typing. DNA from the victim has been obtained from A's clothing and = it has=20 been assumed that this came from the victim's blood. This case = occurred in=20 1998 without establishing the presence of blood through haemochromogen = or even=20 that it was human blood through precipitin. A has an explanation of that = possible bloodstaining which needs to be tested. There are a number of = possible=20 explanations of these findings which have not been distinguished. = Suffice to say=20 A's involvement in the murder is one possibility, but there are other=20 possibilities that have not been eliminated. Further tests are required = to do=20 so.
 
This is a case where the best chance to do various test was at the = time of=20 the offence, but that chance appears to have been missed on a number of = issues,=20 although depending on the collection and storage of samples, some if not = all=20 issues may still be resolvable even now.
 
Unfortunately nearly two weeks elapsed between the murder and the = discovery=20 of an extensively fire-damaged and decomposing body. This raised issues = such as=20 how long it would have taken to cause the extent of damage suffered by = by=20 deceased, when the body was burned, what was done with it after burning, = or=20 prior to it, how long would ambient smells have remained in the area, = how far=20 would such smells have been detectable, etc.? No comparison burns were = conducted=20 to resolve these issues at the time. I would like to do so even now. = Weapons=20 were recovered, but the damage to the body made it impossible to reach = firm=20 conclusions about them. Footprints, etc. are of little use as the body = was not=20 discovered for nearly two weeks and public access to this place was not=20 restricted in those two weeks meaning nearby footprints could easily = have been=20 left by entirely innocent passers-by. Hence my interest in evidence from = inside=20 the grave which cannot have an innocent explanation - notwithstanding = soil being=20 displaced to near the grave while digging it..
 
There are other issues relating to timing of events, whether the = body had=20 been burned prior to being deposited in vegetation for up to 21 hours or = not=20 prior to burial or not? I hope to have tests conducted on this=20 issue. Analysis of maggots can tell a bit about certain issues = including=20 potentially if B is lying about when the body was burned.
 
It is in the context of so much being possible, but so little being = done to=20 confirm or refute B's account that I have a deep sense of unease in = relying=20 uncritically on B in the absence of the results of such scientific = analysis,=20 especially as B has a strong motivation for implicating A, namely = minimising his=20 own involvement in the crime and cover-up. It is of course possible that = B is=20 telling the truth about A, but given the benefit to B in implicating A - = lower=20 sentence, etc. I think it desirable to seek as much corroborative, or = refutive=20 evidence as possible.
 
Apologies about the question of negative findings, but I am = relatively new=20 to this list - just a few months. Thank you for your attention in this = matter=20 and I do take your point regarding the soil needing to be sufficiently = unique.=20 That was partly why I was interested in the pollen and ectoskeletons as = well -=20 hoping the combination will be sufficiently unique even if the = individual=20 components are not. Once again thank you for your time and = attention.
 
Best Wishes
 
Satish Sekar

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9HyOcOyPwVh5Ksh48P8A562y6XZCr1CTyubK5yfI4wfBR+xfoon/AAUWtkf6LtFYGlbREcJ9Hmyh w76KI2LTRP5Jgg+eK+yiUeo7PCinHFqCe+HBOiNEaPT50Mtyxfvj0rJKqMk6I+zwrGx9PBDJeRQf sgvHHR/Bel/klOUyfwf+jjOkTt6474slYZ6RsSX2JHheDw8If0Q8n9Ieez4ou+jMHnRCZ7zWGTsZ Z1xTzwl3sjmBp/SJxx0YJVsT70WRw5Vd8x3hkTZOyetmbRZGivxxiCMoTj5LVlkdEJiivSHxars9 I2eMnZ4uPMnjHcJHq4umXZSlH8JQp/wgcX4yH+Sl9kHpGzx8TscqCSVokh0fOSiUUdvUmBa4hokp Vxk9RD+nxOxyoFURxD/PMvAl2Qvsnok+T4IL2Or7HFMl/YiCETvjqD+kPPZaI09lE95RZGirIJeh PRZKeSxVMiQiMEZIMQxMzkuuOjJEkcQj1Ek5Jynoql4Rh8fI4/HGBw+LP6eHfhDtekdEJl6yekov JOxdmMcUy/s7POz9Dl4JOhrehVfRkjOy8E7RKsspfZZTh9nRK4/0fR1HDKV9FcRkrAv2OVSwyZ4n D4rPXGaIzGxXZDyhTkr74+clEorifwK/khZEiE4YkQSvtMkU/nifwLfZ/CcPZWNkTPpZGxLbIE5t E/k84Z/zsmP+iXo7TPT0iD+FOCBn/JLJMcOU0xtk/jh96PdlEL8EYKox9n7Q+lokrBB8kkZIwQqY qvZiyehzoS6O+ysc5Op4XWyNEFmIjfMqhmJ8I+hdbLxw7nwV42UZyekY7PETB8E6JWDw/pEEctYj RVwTEEjg8I/0hI92T3ji8HjIbvs9QlviFkTxGUdrYqzgsnKeD0vJi9lYITtlo8Z2tirOCycp4P/Z ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C1E6DC.FC7C9060-- From daemon Thu Apr 18 12:45:29 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3IGjTP21867 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3IGjSM21862 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 18 Apr 2002 16:45:26 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFJPH4>; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:44:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Re. Distinguishing Soil Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:43:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1E6F8.3C5C14B0" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 11189 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E6F8.3C5C14B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Finding soil from inside the grave on B's shoes does not put the lie to B's claims of non-involvement in digging the grave. As someone else pointed out, the dirt from inside the grave has to be piled OUTSIDE the grave, so given that B admits being at the scene, he/she could have gotten the dirt from inside the grave on her/his shoes simply by walking around the perimeter of the grave. All it would mean is that B's admission of being at the scene is supported. Now if you find dirt from inside the grave in or on B's shirt or pants, then B's got some more explaining to do. The soil has to have some unusual characteristics though for any such comparisons to be meaningful, otherwise it could have been picked up somewhere else. As for A, not finding soil on her/his clothes proves nothing, unless you nabbed A before he/she left the scene. If A was apprehended sometime afterward, she/he could easily have changed clothes or washed them to remove the soil. You may not even have the right clothes to examine, and if you do, then may have been cleaned. An old saying in forensics holds true: absence of evidence (connecting a suspect to a crime) is not necessarily evidence of absence (of the suspect from involvement in the crime). You can only prove someone is connected to a crime, you can't prove they are NOT connected. Locard's principle is valid in that physical contact theoretically always leaves evidence of that contact, but sometimes that evidence is beyond our technical ability to detect. Often, even if it is detectable that evidence is perishable and/or hard to find. It may simply no longer be there when you look for it, or it may still be there but simply not be discovered by you. If you find no evidence of a connection, that doesn't mean there isn't one - it only means you failed to find one. That doesn't mean it isn't still there in a place you overlooked or that it wasn't there at an earlier time but is now lost. Even if it was never there, that doesn't necessarily clear the suspect because Locard's principle has exceptions, at least in terms of the limits of detection of present-day methods. In this particular case, if A dug the grave then I'd agree there certainly was evidence of the digging on his/her body and clothes when she/he finished the digging, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be able to find it now. Again, you may not be looking at the actual clothes A wore while digging the grave, or the clothes may have been cleaned before you got to them. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 17:11 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Cc: Dale Nute; M. Horton; Robert Parsons Subject: Re. Distinguishing Soil Importance: High List Members Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and M. Horton for your comments) which were very helpful in focussing my mind. My original posting was simply to establish if it was possible to distinguish top and bottom soil. Clearly, it is both in terms of the composition of top and bottom soil and also potentially in terms of pollen and ectoskeletons. While taking the point about innocent contamination on board, the circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it would still be worth pursuing. Please advise after considering the following. The circumstances are that there are two accused of the murder. One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any involvement in the murder and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, obviously including the digging of the grave. The other (B) claims that while he was at the scene (A) did everything including digging the grave while he (B) did nothing of note. Consequently, if inside the grave soil traces were found on the footwear of either one of them it would expose one or other as a liar unless I have got that wrong. In A's case any finding of soil from within the grave, whether displaced or not, would be hard to explain to put it mildly. The question in his case is what relevance could be put on negative results regarding his clothes and footwear? Does this indicate that he wasn't in the grave at any stage, or simply that no evidence that he was in it has been obtained? Would such a finding (negative on A) necessarily mean that B must have lied about A having dug the grave. Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking into this - it is also possible that pollen could link anyone that had been in grave or soil associated with it to the grave as could ectoskeletons. Does this approach make sense? Thank you for your attention in this matter. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E6F8.3C5C14B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Re. Distinguishing Soil

Finding soil from inside the grave on B's shoes does = not put the lie to B's claims of non-involvement in digging the = grave.  As someone else pointed out, the dirt from inside the = grave has to be piled OUTSIDE the grave, so given that B admits being = at the scene, he/she could have gotten the dirt from inside the grave = on her/his shoes simply by walking around the perimeter of the = grave.  All it would mean is that B's admission of being at the = scene is supported.  Now if you find dirt from inside the grave in = or on B's shirt or pants, then B's got some more explaining to = do.  The soil has to have some unusual characteristics though for = any such comparisons to be meaningful, otherwise it could have been = picked up somewhere else.

As for A, not finding soil on her/his clothes proves = nothing, unless you nabbed A before he/she left the scene.  If A = was apprehended sometime afterward, she/he could easily have changed = clothes or washed them to remove the soil.  You may not even have = the right clothes to examine, and if you do, then may have been = cleaned.  An old saying in forensics holds true: absence of = evidence (connecting a suspect to a crime) is not necessarily evidence = of absence (of the suspect from involvement in the crime).  You = can only prove someone is connected to a crime, you can't prove they = are NOT connected.  Locard's principle is valid in that physical = contact theoretically always leaves evidence of that contact, but = sometimes that evidence is beyond our technical ability to = detect.  Often, even if it is detectable that evidence is = perishable and/or hard to find.  It may simply no longer be there = when you look for it, or it may still be there but simply not be = discovered by you.  If you find no evidence of a connection, that = doesn't mean there isn't one - it only means you failed to find = one.  That doesn't mean it isn't still there in a place you = overlooked or that it wasn't there at an earlier time but is now = lost.  Even if it was never there, that doesn't necessarily clear = the suspect because Locard's principle has exceptions, at least in = terms of the limits of detection of present-day methods.  =

In this particular case, if A dug the grave then I'd = agree there certainly was evidence of the digging on his/her body and = clothes when she/he finished the digging, but that doesn't necessarily = mean you'll be able to find it now.  Again, you may not be looking = at the actual clothes A wore while digging the grave, or the clothes = may have been cleaned before you got to them.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com [mailto:satish.sekar@ntlworld.c= om]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 17:11
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Cc: Dale Nute; M. Horton; Robert Parsons
Subject: Re. Distinguishing Soil
Importance: High


 
List Members

Thank you (Bob Parsons, Tilton Davis, Dale Nute and = M. Horton for your comments) which were very helpful in focussing my = mind. My original posting was simply to establish if it was possible to = distinguish top and bottom soil. Clearly, it is both in terms of the = composition of top and bottom soil and also potentially in terms of = pollen and ectoskeletons.

While taking the point about innocent contamination = on board, the circumstances of the case itself are such that I think it = would still be worth pursuing. Please advise after considering the = following. The circumstances are that there are two accused of the = murder.

One (A) maintains complete innocence, denying any = involvement in the murder and subsequent acts of covering up the crime, = obviously including the digging of the grave. The other (B) claims that = while he was at the scene (A) did everything including digging the = grave while he (B) did nothing of note. Consequently, if inside the = grave soil traces were found on the footwear of either one of them it = would expose one or other as a liar unless I have got that wrong. =

In A's case any finding of soil from within the = grave, whether displaced or not, would be hard to explain to put it = mildly. The question in his case is what relevance could be put on = negative results regarding his clothes and footwear? Does this indicate = that he wasn't in the grave at any stage, or simply that no evidence = that he was in it has been obtained? Would such a finding (negative on = A) necessarily mean that B must have lied about A having dug the grave. =

Depending on vegetation at the scene - I am looking = into this - it is also possible that pollen could link anyone that had = been in grave or soil associated with it to the grave as could = ectoskeletons. Does this approach make sense? Thank you for your = attention in this matter.

Best Wishes

Satish Sekar

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E6F8.3C5C14B0-- From daemon Thu Apr 18 14:51:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3IIpSp24650 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3IIpRM24645 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LEGALEYE1@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.179.6ec91bc (3313) for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:06 -0400 (EDT) From: LEGALEYE1@aol.com Message-ID: <179.6ec91bc.29f06f99@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:05 EDT Subject: (OT) A frustrating position on Constitutional rights. To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 121 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3811 It's been a while since I imposed my views or questions on this list. I have held my virtual tongue even in the face of the administrations abuse and exploitation of the "War on Terrorism" to push forward with the "War on Drugs" by postulating a ridiculous connection between drug use and terrorism, but this subject compels me to come out from under my rock. A recent decision by the USSC has me torn between my two greatest passions. On the one hand I feel an overwhelming jealousy for freedoms and liberties protected under the Constitution of the United States. On the other hand I have, in times past, been driven to the point of vigilantism in cases where predators commit harmful acts on the weak especially children. The Courts position in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition tends to place these two issues at odds with each other. I know the court has used sound judgment in deciding this case (something that has become rare in the past couple of decades) but somehow I fear that this decision will be exploited by those who place concupiscence over the natural desire to protect children. I guess I really have no direct question or complaint. I just felt compelled to comment. Besides I wouldn't want everyone to forget me. Regards to all, Bill Holden Legaleye1@aol.com ========================= ASHCROFT V. FREE SPEECH COALITION (00-795) Web-accessible at: http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-795.ZS.html Argued October 30, 2001 -- Decided April 16, 2002 Opinion author: Kennedy =============================================================== The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA) expands the federal prohibition on child pornography to include not only pornographic images made using actual children, 18 U.S.C. sect. 2256(8)(A), but also "any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture" that "is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct," sect.2256(8)(B), and any sexually explicit image that is "advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression" it depicts "a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct," sect. 2256(8)(D). Thus, sect. 2256(8)(B) bans a range of sexually explicit images, sometimes called "virtual child pornography," that appear to depict minors but were produced by means other than using real children, such as through the use of youthful-looking adults or computer-imaging technology. Section 2256(8)(D) is aimed at preventing the production or distribution of pornographic material pandered as child pornography. Fearing that the CPPA threatened their activities, respondents, an adult-entertainment trade association and others, filed this suit alleging that the "appears to be" and "conveys the impression" provisions are overbroad and vague, chilling production of works protected by the First Amendment. The District Court disagreed and granted the Government summary judgment, but the Ninth Circuit reversed. Generally, pornography can be banned only if it is obscene under Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, but pornography depicting actual children can be proscribed whether or not the images are obscene because of the State's interest in protecting the children exploited by the production process, New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 758, and in prosecuting those who promote such sexual exploitation, id., at 761. The Ninth Circuit held the CPPA invalid on its face, finding it to be substantially overbroad because it bans materials that are neither obscene under Miller nor produced by the exploitation of real children as in Ferber. Held: The prohibitions of sects. 2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are overbroad and unconstitutional. Pp. 6-21 From daemon Fri Apr 19 13:18:49 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3JHInN17616 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3JHImX17611 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Tilton Davis" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g3JHImX17612 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 7182 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:44:03 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Tilton Davis" ] >From forens-owner Thu Apr 18 11:44:02 2002 Received: from state.wy.us (scmail.state.wy.us [159.238.116.76]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3IFi2M20479 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WYOMING-Message_Server by state.wy.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:44:00 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.6.1 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:43:54 -0600 From: "Tilton Davis" To: , Subject: Re: Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g3IFi2M20480 After suggesting the pollen and exoskeletons of the insect as trace evidence perhaps still present on the shoes, I totally forgot the pants and shirt probably because I assumed they would be washed. Also, I am interested in the new fact you presented concerning the amount of time that elapsed since the actual homicide (2 weeks). After that amount of time, was there still "blood" found yielding a DNA result from one of the suspect's clothing? Other than burning was the body possibly bleeding as might be the case if a metal was found int he body, stab wounds, compound fractures, etc...? which may indicate that the blood could have originated from the grave site as opposed to another unrelated incident? Any chance that the blood discovery was made on the cuffs of the pants or at least below the knee on the pants? Are there actual cuffs on the pants that could have snagged, grabbed, or in some way collected trace amounts of soil, pollen, plant material, hair or such from the location or deceased? Tilton Davis >>> "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" 4/18/02 6:28:54 AM >>> Leaves List Members Thanks to Lisa Mayer, David Hause and M. Horton for further replies. There are a number of issues in this case, which is one of the most complicated and intriguing cases that I have ever been involved in. I am trying to test B's account against scientific evidence on a number of points. To date there is no scientific evidence that unequivocally implicates A yet B's account has been accepted at face value. I want to test that account as if B is telling the truth then some scientific evidence ought to implicate A or at least confirm aspects of B's account. At present B's account stands alone against A. Although negative findings on their own mean that no evidence has been found I wonder whether the combination of negative findings in a battery of different tests on various issues would at least make it unlikely that B was telling the truth about A. In short can ANY conclusions be drawn regarding B's account, or would it simply be that in all tests there is no corroborating evidence, but that it does not necessarily refute B's account except for some aspects that could be proved untrue such as his timing of events by maggot evidence for example and that the combination of results simply add up to each of its components individually rather than taken as a whole. Can any conclusions be drawn about B's truthfulness, or lack of from the lack of corroborative scientific evidence? The only scientific link that there is does not prove A's guilt. Investigators have gone from Kastle-Meyer Reagent Testing straight to SGM typing - the murder occurred before the advent of SGM+ STR typing. DNA from the victim has been obtained from A's clothing and it has been assumed that this came from the victim's blood. This case occurred in 1998 without establishing the presence of blood through haemochromogen or even that it was human blood through precipitin. A has an explanation of that possible bloodstaining which needs to be tested. There are a number of possible explanations of these findings which have not been distinguished. Suffice to say A's involvement in the murder is one possibility, but there are other possibilities that have not been eliminated. Further tests are required to do so. This is a case where the best chance to do various test was at the time of the offence, but that chance appears to have been missed on a number of issues, although depending on the collection and storage of samples, some if not all issues may still be resolvable even now. Unfortunately nearly two weeks elapsed between the murder and the discovery of an extensively fire-damaged and decomposing body. This raised issues such as how long it would have taken to cause the extent of damage suffered by by deceased, when the body was burned, what was done with it after burning, or prior to it, how long would ambient smells have remained in the area, how far would such smells have been detectable, etc.? No comparison burns were conducted to resolve these issues at the time. I would like to do so even now. Weapons were recovered, but the damage to the body made it impossible to reach firm conclusions about them. Footprints, etc. are of little use as the body was not discovered for nearly two weeks and public access to this place was not restricted in those two weeks meaning nearby footprints could easily have been left by entirely innocent passers-by. Hence my interest in evidence from inside the grave which cannot have an innocent explanation - notwithstanding soil being displaced to near the grave while digging it.. There are other issues relating to timing of events, whether the body had been burned prior to being deposited in vegetation for up to 21 hours or not prior to burial or not? I hope to have tests conducted on this issue. Analysis of maggots can tell a bit about certain issues including potentially if B is lying about when the body was burned. It is in the context of so much being possible, but so little being done to confirm or refute B's account that I have a deep sense of unease in relying uncritically on B in the absence of the results of such scientific analysis, especially as B has a strong motivation for implicating A, namely minimising his own involvement in the crime and cover-up. It is of course possible that B is telling the truth about A, but given the benefit to B in implicating A - lower sentence, etc. I think it desirable to seek as much corroborative, or refutive evidence as possible. Apologies about the question of negative findings, but I am relatively new to this list - just a few months. Thank you for your attention in this matter and I do take your point regarding the soil needing to be sufficiently unique. That was partly why I was interested in the pollen and ectoskeletons as well - hoping the combination will be sufficiently unique even if the individual components are not. Once again thank you for your time and attention. Best Wishes Satish Sekar From daemon Sat Apr 20 00:01:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3K41Vj25959 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3K41UM25954 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:01:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SaBrInY14@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.74.1b996e54 (25511) for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:01:22 -0400 (EDT) From: SaBrInY14@aol.com Message-ID: <74.1b996e54.29f24212@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:01:22 EDT Subject: Re: Information To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 464 To everyone who responded to my email sent out a few days ago about colleges and classes to take, I thank you for your quick response and your helpful advice. It means a lot! Im vacationing in Florida right now, which is why i havent been able to thank you sooner. Once again, thanks a lot. Sabrina *Betsy Roe, thank you so much for the information on the tours at the massachussets state police department...i will set up a tour once i get home! From daemon Mon Apr 22 00:01:38 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3M41cA26508 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from f04n01.cac.psu.edu (f04s01.cac.psu.edu [128.118.141.31]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3M41bM26503 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [130.203.162.76] (tnt1-162-76.cac.psu.edu [130.203.162.76]) by f04n01.cac.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA114520; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:01:32 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: rpw109@email.psu.edu Message-Id: Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:56:14 -0400 To: Recipient List Suppressed:; From: RP Withington Subject: Forensic Entomology Workshop Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1594 Announcing the Tenth Annual Workshop on Forensic Entomology offered by the Entomology Department at The Pennsylvania State University. The workshop is led by Dr. K.C. Kim, Board Certified Forensic Entomologist, and runs from Wednesday, 22 May 2002, to Friday, 24 May 2002. This course is designed for forensic investigators working for law-enforcement agencies, including state police, municipal police, forensic pathologists, and coroners. The course has been approved by the State Board of Coroners and covers the principles of forensic entomology, the ecology of necrophagous arthropod communities, and forensic entomological analysis. For course information, contact: Dr. K.C. Kim The Pennsylvania State University 501 ASI Building University Park, PA 16802-3508 Phone: (814) 865-1895 E-mail: kck@psu.edu For course registration, contact: Ag. Short Courses and Conferences The Pennsylvania State University 306 Ag. Administration Building University Park, PA 16802-2601 Phone: (814) 865-8301 FAX: (814) 865-7050 TTY: (814) 865-1204 Please visit our Web sites at: http://www.ento.psu.edu/ForensicSC/index.htm http://conferences.cas.psu.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert P. Withington III Frost Entomological Museum University Park, PA 16802 U.S.A. Telephone: (814) 863-7657 FAX: (814) 865-3048 E-mail: rpw109@psu.edu From daemon Mon Apr 22 08:45:45 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3MCjiY01763 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3MCjip01758 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:45:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Admin request: /^subject:\s*help\b/i Non-member submission from [Stephanie Page ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 640 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:13:06 -0400 From: Stephanie Page X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Help: Henry Lee's opinion change in OJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been hearing people say that Lee has now changed his opinion about whether he actually saw two shoe prints in the Simpson case. Has anyone else heard anything about Lee now stating that he now thinks that there was only one print? Thanks - Stephanie Page From daemon Mon Apr 22 11:55:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3MFtHj05685 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3MFtGM05680 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alikatt@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.c9.210f4507 (3958) for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:55:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Alikatt@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:55:08 EDT Subject: HFE-7100 Engineered fluid To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c9.210f4507.29f58c5c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10564 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1472 --part1_c9.210f4507.29f58c5c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone used this chemical when mixing ninhydrin? If so, have you noticed a decrease in effectiveness after a few weeks? We've noticed that when using freshly mixed ninhydrin, prints appear very quickly. However, when using solution that is a few weeks old, very few prints appear on the item, and they are very faint. When re-dipped with freshly mixed ninhydrin, prints tend to appear. We store the ninhydrin in a dark bottle in a cabinet, as suggested. Thanks, Alison Chandler PD Chandler, AZ --part1_c9.210f4507.29f58c5c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone used this chemical when mixing ninhydrin?  If so, have you noticed a decrease in effectiveness after a few weeks?
We've noticed that when using freshly mixed ninhydrin, prints appear very quickly.  However, when using solution that is a few weeks old, very few prints appear on the item, and they are very faint. When re-dipped with freshly mixed ninhydrin, prints tend to appear.
We store the ninhydrin in a dark bottle in a cabinet, as suggested.

Thanks,
Alison
Chandler PD
Chandler, AZ --part1_c9.210f4507.29f58c5c_boundary-- From daemon Tue Apr 23 08:02:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NC2pE22751 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cpcs1.cpc.state.ma.us ([170.63.30.8]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3NC2oM22742 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 2514 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2002 11:39:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cpcs1.cpc.state.ma.us) (170.63.30.188) by cpsc1.cpc.state.ma.us with SMTP; 23 Apr 2002 11:39:05 -0000 Message-ID: <3CC54CC9.F0662BBE@cpcs1.cpc.state.ma.us> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:00:10 -0400 From: stephanie page X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens list , "forensic-science@egroups.com" Subject: Henry Lee info needed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 268 I have been hearing people say that Dr. Lee has now changed his opinion about whether he actually saw two shoe prints in the Simpson case. Has anyone else heard anything about Lee now stating that he now thinks that there was only one print? Thanks - Stephanie Page From daemon Tue Apr 23 08:33:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NCXbA23521 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3NCXaM23516 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Gervforsci@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.152.cc14fbc (15888) for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:33:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (mow-m32.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.9]) by air-id08.mx.aol.com (v84.14) with ESMTP id MAILINID83-0423083334; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:33:34 2000 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:33:34 -0400 From: Gervforsci@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu (forenslist) Subject: Herpes DNA Message-ID: <2DB72F11.1ABBBA27.0B483252@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 137 Does anyone have information about obtaining suspect's DNA from a herpes lesion on a victim? Rich Gervasoni Montgomery County Crime Lab From daemon Tue Apr 23 09:05:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3ND5wf24447 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.nist.gov (email.nist.gov [129.6.2.7]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3ND5vM24442 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goodpaster (h179112.nist.gov [129.6.179.112]) by email.nist.gov (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g3ND5tvV017287; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20020423090014.00b8b530@mailserver.nist.gov> X-Sender: jgoodpas@mailserver.nist.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:02:33 -0400 To: Forensic Science Mailing List , stephanie.page@verizon.net From: John Goodpaster Subject: Dr. Lee Opinion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1184 Stephanie wrote: >Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:13:06 -0400 >From: Stephanie Page >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win95; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Help: Henry Lee's opinion change in OJ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I have been hearing people say that Lee has now changed his opinion >about whether he actually saw two shoe prints in the Simpson case. Has >anyone else heard anything about Lee now stating that he now thinks that >there was only one print? Thanks - Stephanie Page I can tell you that I heard Dr. Lee speak at Pittcon 2002 (in New Orleans in March) and he presented the same opinion as he had at trial regarding the shoe print evidence. . . John ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Tue Apr 23 11:58:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NFwB928013 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server88.sannet.gov (ponybob.sannet.gov [156.29.253.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3NFwAM28008 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 10.224.0.34 by server88.sannet.gov with ESMTP ( WorldSecure Server SMTP Relay(WSS) v4.3); Tue, 23 Apr 02 08:57:47 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: f481c5c2-96b2-11d2-9b16-0008c70995ba Received: by sdpdhqc05ex1.pd.sannet.gov with Internet Mail Service ( 5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:57:22 -0700 Message-ID: <4590D3151BA1D41195460002A513C26A0258F1B0@sdpdhqc05ex1.pd.sannet.gov> From: "Lough, Patricia" To: "Forensl (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Dr. Lee Opinion Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:57:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-WSS-ID: 10DB5BF0894245-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2141 I purchased a transcript and video from the Montel Williams Show when Dr. Lee was a guest on June 7, 2001. Dr. Lee states "...In addition, of course, at the scene, we found two type of shoe print. One is size 12 1/2 Bruno Magli. The second type is a parallel-line design, size 10. Now if you find shoe print at the scene, two type of shoe print at the scene, what does it mean?" Williams asked if it meant two different people and Lee said "And two people...unless somebody left in a hurry wear two different shoes. Right? We have to think of that possibility." Patricia Lough, Supervising Criminalist San Diego Police Department 1401 Broadway, MS 725 San Diego, CA 92101 Phone: 619-531-2460 Fax: 619-531-2520 pkl@pd.sannet.gov -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 06:03 AM To: Forensic Science Mailing List; stephanie.page@verizon.net Subject: Dr. Lee Opinion Stephanie wrote: >Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:13:06 -0400 >From: Stephanie Page >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win95; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Help: Henry Lee's opinion change in OJ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I have been hearing people say that Lee has now changed his opinion >about whether he actually saw two shoe prints in the Simpson case. Has >anyone else heard anything about Lee now stating that he now thinks that >there was only one print? Thanks - Stephanie Page I can tell you that I heard Dr. Lee speak at Pittcon 2002 (in New Orleans in March) and he presented the same opinion as he had at trial regarding the shoe print evidence. . . John ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Tue Apr 23 12:20:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NGKgs28623 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3NGKfM28618 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GBEDFORDM@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.1ac.1345f50 (15901) for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (mow-m27.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by air-id09.mx.aol.com (v84.14) with ESMTP id MAILINID94-0423122039; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:20:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:20:39 -0400 From: GBEDFORDM@aol.com To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: RE: Dr. Lee Opinion Message-ID: <04F11EB3.2080C158.020A6B9E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3715 Since the subject has been raised, I would like to take this opportunity to provide some hard information regarding this subject. I do not know if Henry Lee has changed his opinion or not, but what I do know is that he was right about there being two shoe prints at the scene - the 12 1/2 Bruno Magli's and a second print (I will need to rely on his size estimate). In addition to the second set of shoe prints, there were also present several parallel lines that he indicated could have come from the second pair of shoes. What he failed to mention was that although the Bruno Magli prints were clearly visible in blood and associated with the events of the night of the murders, the other shoe prints and parallel lines were artifacts left over from the manufacture of the cement tiles of the walkway (worker shoes and trowel marks still lightly visible in the finished concrete). The prints and lines he described and exhibited in the courtroom by photographs were still clearly visible in the concrete tiles 14 months after the crime occurred. To my knowledge, there were no other shoe prints found that were related to the incident of the night of the crime. The answer to his question "Now if you find shoe print at the scene, two type of shoe print at the scene, what does it mean?" was clearly demonstrated and documented. Unfortunately, the DA's office chose not to introduce that information. Greg Matheson I purchased a transcript and video from the Montel Williams Show when Dr. Lee was a guest on June 7, 2001. Dr. Lee states "...In addition, of course, at the scene, we found two type of shoe print. One is size 12 1/2 Bruno Magli. The second type is a parallel-line design, size 10. Now if you find shoe print at the scene, two type of shoe print at the scene, what does it mean?" Williams asked if it meant two different people and Lee said "And two people...unless somebody left in a hurry wear two different shoes. Right? We have to think of that possibility." Patricia Lough, Supervising Criminalist San Diego Police Department 1401 Broadway, MS 725 San Diego, CA 92101 Phone: 619-531-2460 Fax: 619-531-2520 pkl@pd.sannet.gov -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 06:03 AM To: Forensic Science Mailing List; stephanie.page@verizon.net Subject: Dr. Lee Opinion Stephanie wrote: >Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:13:06 -0400 >From: Stephanie Page >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win95; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Help: Henry Lee's opinion change in OJ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I have been hearing people say that Lee has now changed his opinion >about whether he actually saw two shoe prints in the Simpson case. Has >anyone else heard anything about Lee now stating that he now thinks that >there was only one print? Thanks - Stephanie Page I can tell you that I heard Dr. Lee speak at Pittcon 2002 (in New Orleans in March) and he presented the same opinion as he had at trial regarding the shoe print evidence. . . John ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Tue Apr 23 14:40:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NIew702055 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server88.sannet.gov (ponybob.sannet.gov [156.29.253.25]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3NIeuM02050 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 10.224.0.34 by server88.sannet.gov with ESMTP ( WorldSecure Server SMTP Relay(WSS) v4.3); Tue, 23 Apr 02 11:40:40 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: f481c5c2-96b2-11d2-9b16-0008c70995ba Received: by sdpdhqc05ex1.pd.sannet.gov with Internet Mail Service ( 5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:40:16 -0700 Message-ID: <4590D3151BA1D41195460002A513C26A0258F1B1@sdpdhqc05ex1.pd.sannet.gov> From: "Lough, Patricia" To: "Forensl (E-mail)" Subject: RE: RE: Dr. Lee Opinion Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:40:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-WSS-ID: 10DB7522947128-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 4246 Thanks Greg for clarifying the second shoeprint. It is most unfortunate that Dr. Lee failed to state the significance of a historical "cement" shoeprint at a crime scene. Patricia Lough, Supervising Criminalist San Diego Police Department 1401 Broadway, MS 725 San Diego, CA 92101 Phone: 619-531-2460 Fax: 619-531-2520 pkl@pd.sannet.gov -----Original Message----- From: GBEDFORDM@aol.com [mailto:GBEDFORDM@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 09:21 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: RE: Dr. Lee Opinion Since the subject has been raised, I would like to take this opportunity to provide some hard information regarding this subject. I do not know if Henry Lee has changed his opinion or not, but what I do know is that he was right about there being two shoe prints at the scene - the 12 1/2 Bruno Magli's and a second print (I will need to rely on his size estimate). In addition to the second set of shoe prints, there were also present several parallel lines that he indicated could have come from the second pair of shoes. What he failed to mention was that although the Bruno Magli prints were clearly visible in blood and associated with the events of the night of the murders, the other shoe prints and parallel lines were artifacts left over from the manufacture of the cement tiles of the walkway (worker shoes and trowel marks still lightly visible in the finished concrete). The prints and lines he described and exhibited in the courtroom by photographs were still clearly visible in the concrete tiles 14 months after the crime occurred. To my knowledge, there were no other shoe prints found that were related to the incident of the night of the crime. The answer to his question "Now if you find shoe print at the scene, two type of shoe print at the scene, what does it mean?" was clearly demonstrated and documented. Unfortunately, the DA's office chose not to introduce that information. Greg Matheson I purchased a transcript and video from the Montel Williams Show when Dr. Lee was a guest on June 7, 2001. Dr. Lee states "...In addition, of course, at the scene, we found two type of shoe print. One is size 12 1/2 Bruno Magli. The second type is a parallel-line design, size 10. Now if you find shoe print at the scene, two type of shoe print at the scene, what does it mean?" Williams asked if it meant two different people and Lee said "And two people...unless somebody left in a hurry wear two different shoes. Right? We have to think of that possibility." Patricia Lough, Supervising Criminalist San Diego Police Department 1401 Broadway, MS 725 San Diego, CA 92101 Phone: 619-531-2460 Fax: 619-531-2520 pkl@pd.sannet.gov -----Original Message----- From: John Goodpaster [mailto:john.goodpaster@nist.gov] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 06:03 AM To: Forensic Science Mailing List; stephanie.page@verizon.net Subject: Dr. Lee Opinion Stephanie wrote: >Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:13:06 -0400 >From: Stephanie Page >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win95; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu >Subject: Help: Henry Lee's opinion change in OJ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I have been hearing people say that Lee has now changed his opinion >about whether he actually saw two shoe prints in the Simpson case. Has >anyone else heard anything about Lee now stating that he now thinks that >there was only one print? Thanks - Stephanie Page I can tell you that I heard Dr. Lee speak at Pittcon 2002 (in New Orleans in March) and he presented the same opinion as he had at trial regarding the shoe print evidence. . . John ******************************************************** John V. Goodpaster, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8392 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8392 Phone: (301) 975-3142 FAX: (301) 977-0685 e-mail: john.goodpaster@nist.gov ******************************************************** From daemon Tue Apr 23 14:59:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NIxJM02515 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net ([207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3NIxHM02510 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pete.fsalab.com (pm9-79.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.79]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.1/8.12.1/jjb-sd) with ESMTP id g3NIwYVE024413 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@fsalab.com X-Envelope-To: Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020423115555.00aae220@pop.nothingbutnet.net> X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:57:44 -0700 To: "Forensl (E-mail)" From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: RE: RE: Dr. Lee Opinion In-Reply-To: <4590D3151BA1D41195460002A513C26A0258F1B1@sdpdhqc05ex1.pd.s annet.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 420 At 11:40 AM 4/23/02 -0700, Lough, Patricia wrote: >Thanks Greg for clarifying the second shoeprint. It is most unfortunate >that Dr. Lee failed to state the significance of a historical "cement" >shoeprint at a crime scene. Maybe that person, who we should call the "real killer", was just hangin' around the scene, ever since the cement was poured, waiting for the right opportunity. Ya never know. Pete Barnett From daemon Tue Apr 23 16:58:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3NKwJb04902 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3NKwHM04897 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-2ini89l.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.33.53] helo=cp.calicopress.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1707MY-0006yf-00 for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:58:10 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423135211.01d507e0@pop.business.earthlink.net> X-Sender: john%calicopress.com@pop.business.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:56:15 -0700 To: From: John Houde Subject: CAC Spring Seminar In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020423115555.00aae220@pop.nothingbutnet.net> References: <4590D3151BA1D41195460002A513C26A0258F1B1@sdpdhqc05ex1.pd.s annet.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 482 >Seeing so many of my favorite criminalists weigh in on Dr. Lee reminded me >to mention to the group: The Spring seminar of the California Association of Criminalists will be held at the San Francisco Marriott (Fisherman's Wharf) from May 8-11, 2002. One of the best things about this profession is the exchange of ideas at regular seminars such as this one. Don't miss it! For more information, please visit http://www.cacnews.org/upcoming.htm That is all... ;-) John Houde From daemon Tue Apr 23 22:57:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3O2vC009719 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postino8.int.prima.com.ar (postino8.prima.com.ar [200.42.0.179]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3O2vAM09714 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fito (a200042111009.rev.prima.com.ar [200.42.111.9]) by postino8.int.prima.com.ar (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g3O2v4359029 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:57:04 -0300 (ART) (envelope-from quesca@ciudad.com.ar) Message-ID: <00d901c1eb3c$3ab52640$096f2ac8@fito> From: "Fito Scatena" To: Subject: right or left handed? Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:00:44 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C1EB23.145B6040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1331 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C1EB23.145B6040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is = right handed oir left handed? TK in advance. Dr Adolfo Scatena Gral Roca Rio Negro Argentina ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C1EB23.145B6040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there anyway, from the medical point = of=20 view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left = handed?
 
TK in advance.
 
Dr Adolfo Scatena
Gral Roca Rio Negro=20 Argentina
------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C1EB23.145B6040-- From daemon Tue Apr 23 23:12:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3O3CPA10219 for forens-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3O3CPM10214 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DavidB7818@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.90.24c261de (3984) for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:12:12 -0400 (EDT) From: DavidB7818@aol.com Message-ID: <90.24c261de.29f77c8b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:12:11 EDT Subject: (no subject) To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 121 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 441 At 11:40 AM 4/23/02 -0700, Lough, Patricia wrote: >Thanks Greg for clarifying the second shoeprint. It is most unfortunate >that Dr. Lee failed to state the significance of a historical "cement" >shoeprint at a crime scene. >>Maybe that person, who we should call the "real killer", was just hangin' around the scene, ever since the cement was poured, waiting for the right opportunity. Ya never know."" It's probably Robert Blake's. From daemon Wed Apr 24 00:39:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3O4dTY11815 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sierra.onr.com (sierra.onr.com [199.1.90.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3O4dTM11810 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from geraldhu (austin1-181.onr.com [64.28.100.181]) by sierra.onr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 01616E3F for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:36:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gerald L. Hurst" To: "Forens E-mail Group" Subject: RE: right or left handed? Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:33:03 -0500 Message-ID: <003c01c1eb49$1f4a7d80$6401a8c0@austin.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1EB1F.36747580" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <00d901c1eb3c$3ab52640$096f2ac8@fito> Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2747 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1EB1F.36747580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read that the musculature of the preferred hand is generally much heavier. This seems to make sense and is at least true in my case. Jerry Gerald L. Hurst ghurst@austin.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Fito Scatena Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:01 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: right or left handed? Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left handed? TK in advance. Dr Adolfo Scatena Gral Roca Rio Negro Argentina ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1EB1F.36747580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have=20 read that the musculature of the preferred hand is generally much=20 heavier.
This=20 seems to make sense and is at least true in my case.

Jerry

Gerald L. Hurst
ghurst@austin.rr.com =

 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu=20 [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf = Of Fito=20 Scatena
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:01 PM
To: = forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: right or left=20 handed?

Is there anyway, from the medical = point of=20 view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left = handed?
 
TK in advance.
 
Dr Adolfo Scatena
Gral Roca Rio Negro=20 Argentina
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1EB1F.36747580-- From daemon Wed Apr 24 06:41:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OAfYD15554 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vixen.shef.ac.uk (vixen.shef.ac.uk [143.167.2.8]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OAfWM15549 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [143.167.1.9] (helo=mailhub1.shef.ac.uk) by vixen.shef.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 170KDG-0004kU-00; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:41:26 +0100 Received: from swineshaw.shef.ac.uk ([143.167.107.251]) by mailhub1.shef.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #4) id 170KDG-0004dM-02; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:41:26 +0100 Received: from SWINESHAW/SpoolDir by swineshaw.shef.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 24 Apr 02 11:41:25 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by SWINESHAW (Mercury 1.48); 24 Apr 02 11:41:16 +0100 Received: from swineshaw (143.167.157.128) by swineshaw.shef.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 24 Apr 02 11:41:14 +0100 From: "Robert Forrest" To: "Fito Scatena" , Subject: RE: right or left handed? Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:42:45 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c1eb7c$c4eb1fa0$809da78f@shef.ac.uk.shef.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1EB85.26AF87A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00d901c1eb3c$3ab52640$096f2ac8@fito> X-Scanner: exiscan@shef.ac.uk *170KDG-0004kU-00* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1EB85.26AF87A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the more subtle ways may be to look at their teeth. Left handers brush differently to right handers. Robert Forrest -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Fito Scatena Sent: 24 April 2002 04:01 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: right or left handed? Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left handed? TK in advance. Dr Adolfo Scatena Gral Roca Rio Negro Argentina ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1EB85.26AF87A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of=20 the more subtle ways may be to look at their teeth. Left handers brush=20 differently to right handers.
 
Robert=20 Forrest
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu=20 [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf = Of Fito=20 Scatena
Sent: 24 April 2002 04:01
To:=20 forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: right or left=20 handed?

Is there anyway, from the medical = point of=20 view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left = handed?
 
TK in advance.
 
Dr Adolfo Scatena
Gral Roca Rio Negro=20 Argentina
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1EB85.26AF87A0-- From daemon Wed Apr 24 07:23:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OBNaD16247 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OBNYM16242 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.170]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020424112326.FGGT29981.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:23:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c1eb82$4161f860$aac8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: Re. Right or Left Handed Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:21:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1EB8A.A01305E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 21353 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1EB8A.A01305E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C1EB8A.A01305E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C1EB8A.A01305E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Citrus Punch Could ambidextrous people be distinguished from left or right-handed = people? Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C1EB8A.A01305E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Citrus Punch

Could ambidextrous people be distinguished from left or = right-handed=20 people?
 
Satish Sekar

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07:49:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OBnJf16662 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OBnIM16657 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.200.170]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020424114906.KDHL286.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:49:06 +0100 Message-ID: <002c01c1eb85$d786d4c0$aac8fc3e@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" From: "Satish.Sekar@ntlworld.com" To: Subject: 3-D Computer Programmes Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:47:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1EB8E.3867E1A0" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 22125 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1EB8E.3867E1A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1EB8E.3867E1A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1EB8E.3867E1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Citrus Punch List Members, Does anyone of a computer programme that can be used to recreate the = mechanics of struggles/fights? What I am interested in is feeding in = details of wounds/marks and that of accounts given to test whether the = accounts given match the injuries - including angles of wounds on how = they occurred. Potentially this could be used as a visual aid for juries = thereby visualising that issue for them. Best Wishes Satish Sekar ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1EB8E.3867E1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Citrus Punch

List Members,
 
Does anyone of a computer programme that can be used to recreate = the=20 mechanics of struggles/fights? What I am interested in is feeding in = details of=20 wounds/marks and that of accounts given to test whether the accounts = given match=20 the injuries - including angles of wounds on how they occurred. = Potentially this=20 could be used as a visual aid for juries thereby visualising that issue = for=20 them.
 
Best Wishes
 
Satish Sekar

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12:10:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OGAIQ21859 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.47]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OGACM21854 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.128.75]) by mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020424161012.SUZZ28991.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net>; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:10:12 +0000 Message-ID: <3CC6DA23.E23AACCF@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:16:08 -0400 From: "E. J. Wagner" Reply-To: EJWagner@worldnet.att.net Organization: Crime Historian / Storyteller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Forrest CC: Fito Scatena , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: right or left handed? References: <002801c1eb7c$c4eb1fa0$809da78f@shef.ac.uk.shef.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 539 Another thing to consider is that many people do not use the stronger hand. Well into the 20th century, unfortunate left-handed children were forced to use their right hand for some activities- writing, or eating, for instance. As a result,I think it would be very difficult to "prove" handedness. One might be able to deduce that the preponderance of the evidence was consistent with one hand or the other, but that is not the same thing as a proven conclusion.. EJ -- on the World Wide Web at http://www.forensic.to/webhome/ejwagner/ From daemon Wed Apr 24 13:21:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OHLM522958 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deimos.email.Arizona.EDU (deimos-adm.email.Arizona.EDU [128.196.133.166]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OHLLM22953 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [159.233.136.11] by deimos.email.Arizona.EDU with HTTP; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:21:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:21:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC6DD8500000275@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU> In-Reply-To: <00d901c1eb3c$3ab52640$096f2ac8@fito> From: BANDERS@email.arizona.edu Subject: RE: right or left handed? To: "Fito Scatena" Cc: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: UofA Webmail X-Originating-IP: 159.233.136.11 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 516 >Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is >right handed oir left handed? Far from proving handedness, the skeleton can offer clues. The shoulder joint morphology (size, shape) has been utilized effectively in assessing handedness. Habitual wear in the teeth (dentin) and supporting alveolar bone likely would be more subtle. The ambidextrous person may be very difficult to differentiate from the person who failed to use the dominant hand in a habitual manner. Bruce Anderson From daemon Wed Apr 24 13:31:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OHVZ723305 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OHVZM23300 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net (66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net [66.162.146.157]) by relay1.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C8EBDB90 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:30:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay1.mail.twtelecom.net [207.67.10.252]) with SMTP; 24 Apr 2002 17:16:17 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Wed Apr 24 10:28:24 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:31:34 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.2.1 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:30:48 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: RE: right or left handed? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g3OHVZM23301 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 989 Checking the hands for callouses could be an indicator of handedness. Perhaps an indentation on the lateral side of the middle finger may indicate what hand the individual holds the writing instrument. These are just thoughts and observations on my part. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 >>> 04/24 10:21 AM >>> >Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is >right handed oir left handed? Far from proving handedness, the skeleton can offer clues. The shoulder joint morphology (size, shape) has been utilized effectively in assessing handedness. Habitual wear in the teeth (dentin) and supporting alveolar bone likely would be more subtle. The ambidextrous person may be very difficult to differentiate from the person who failed to use the dominant hand in a habitual manner. Bruce Anderson From daemon Wed Apr 24 15:54:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3OJs9326138 for forens-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx.seanet.com (mx.seanet.com [199.181.164.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3OJs8M26133 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 8sv5f01 (ip-64-38-163-195.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.163.195]) by mx.seanet.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g3OJs6n06919 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <018601c1ebc9$e3d7a940$c3a32640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Forensic Science List" References: <00d901c1eb3c$3ab52640$096f2ac8@fito> Subject: Re: right or left handed? Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:47:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 481 Assuming a person is literate, there should be a writer's callus on the dominant hand. LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fito Scatena" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 8:00 PM Subject: right or left handed? Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is right handed or left handed? TK in advance. Dr Adolfo Scatena Gral Roca Rio Negro Argentina From daemon Thu Apr 25 13:31:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PHVBr14144 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PHVAM14139 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([63.205.185.62]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GV400GORWNW7D@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:30:28 -0700 From: Joan Edelstein Subject: Re: Right or left handed? To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Message-id: <3CC83D33.788A96B1@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 437 "Bob Kegel" wrote: Assuming a person is literate, there should be a writer's callus on the dominant hand. That's very interesting! Where would the callus be? Would the presence be affected by the amount of recent writing or would there be a cumulative effect so that it might be more pronounced as one ages? Joan Edelstein, DrPH, RN Professor, San Jose State University School of Nursing Legal Nurse Consultant From daemon Thu Apr 25 13:59:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PHxgn14834 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deimos.email.Arizona.EDU (deimos-adm.email.Arizona.EDU [128.196.133.166]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PHxfM14829 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [159.233.136.11] by deimos.email.Arizona.EDU with HTTP; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:59:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC6DD8500002AEA@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU> In-Reply-To: <3CC83D33.788A96B1@pacbell.net> From: banders@email.arizona.edu Subject: Re: Right or left handed? To: "Joan Edelstein" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: UofA Webmail X-Originating-IP: 159.233.136.11 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 207 >"Bob Kegel" wrote: > >Assuming a person is literate, there should be a writer's callus on the >dominant hand. Or arthritis from pressing the mouse button. Who writes anymore? :) From daemon Thu Apr 25 14:06:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PI6ZP15529 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webster.k12.mo.us (mail.webster.k12.mo.us [204.184.92.241]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PI6YM15524 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webster.k12.mo.us (204.184.92.1) by mail.webster.k12.mo.us with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.1 demo) for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:05:50 -0500 Message-ID: <3CC83F20.903BE7E0@mail.webster.k12.mo.us> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:38:40 -0700 From: jeanette hencken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forens Subject: handedness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 128 Isn't it possible that some people have no callus w/ the use of computers being as prevalent as it is today? Jeanette Hencken From daemon Thu Apr 25 14:36:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PIa8816246 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.nothingbutnet.net (ns1.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.84.2]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PIa7M16241 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pdb (pm8-37.nothingbutnet.net [207.167.85.37]) by ns1.nothingbutnet.net (8.12.1/8.12.1/jjb-sd) with SMTP id g3PIa2UQ024371 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200204251836.g3PIa2UQ024371@ns1.nothingbutnet.net> X-Envelope-From: pbarnett@FSALab.com X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: pbarnett@pop.nothingbutnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:34:37 -0700 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu From: "Peter D. Barnett" Subject: Re: Right or left handed? In-Reply-To: <3CC83D33.788A96B1@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1410 Is there conceivably any method for determining handedness that is better than simply assuming that the individual is right -handed? That assumption will be correct a very high percentage of the time - 80 or 90% I'd bet, and I am sure there are statistics on that. There would have to be some empirical demonstration that any indicia of handedness that survives the ability to throw a baseball or write with a pen is a more reliable determinator of handedness than making the assumption. Even is skeletal features can be used to argue handedness, how can an anthropologist be sure that the individual was one handed or the other. Are there many people who record their handedness, somehow, then leave their bodies for anthropological investigation? This issue demonstrates the difficulty with inferring from some population information, which is what many anthropological studies gather, to a specific individual or circumstance. Even if, for example, it were possible to demonstrate that there is a high correlation between betwen some skeletal feature and handedness, such correlation may not allow prediction with better than chance reliability for a single individual - and in the forensic context we are almost always dealing with a single individual. Pete Barnett Peter D. Barnett Forensic Science Associates Richmond CA 510-222-8883 FAX: 510-222-8887 pbarnett@FSALab.com http://www.fsalab.com From daemon Thu Apr 25 15:45:56 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PJjuR17500 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:45:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx.seanet.com (mx.seanet.com [199.181.164.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PJjtM17495 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 8sv5f01 (ip-64-38-163-152.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.163.152]) by mx.seanet.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g3PJjjB05983; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00c701c1ec91$e84c1d80$98a32640@8sv5f01> From: "Bob Kegel" To: "Joan Edelstein" , "Forensic Science List" , "jeanette hencken" References: <3CC83D33.788A96B1@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Right or left handed? Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:43:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 828 On Thursday, April 25, 2002, at 10:30 AM, Joan Edelstein wrote: > That's very interesting! Where would the callus be? Would the presence > be affected by the amount of recent writing or would there be a > cumulative effect so that it might be more pronounced as one ages? My callus is on the middle finger of my right hand. My impression is that's it's less pronounced than it was when I was in grade school. 40+ years ago I wrote everything by hand; now, I use a keyboard for everything except my signature and a traffic ticket or two. Jeanette Hencken asks: > Isn't it possible that some people have no callus w/ the use of > computers being as prevalent as it is today? I asked my schoolteacher wife to check her fifth-grade students. She reports 9 of 16 have them. LPO Bob Kegel Aberdeen Police Dept. Aberdeen, WA From daemon Thu Apr 25 17:36:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PLa6u20059 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deimos.email.Arizona.EDU (deimos-adm.email.Arizona.EDU [128.196.133.166]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PLa5M20049 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [159.233.136.11] by deimos.email.Arizona.EDU with HTTP; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:36:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:36:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC6DD850000349E@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU> In-Reply-To: <200204251836.g3PIa2UQ024371@ns1.nothingbutnet.net> From: banders@email.arizona.edu Subject: Re: Right or left handed? To: "Peter D. Barnett" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: UofA Webmail X-Originating-IP: 159.233.136.11 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1953 >Is there conceivably any method for determining handedness that is better >than >simply assuming that the individual is right -handed? That assumption will >be >correct a very high percentage of the time - 80 or 90% I'd bet, and I am >sure >there are statistics on that. An example: If an individual habitually utilizes the left arm (and attached hand) more than than the right, then the left shoulder joint could exhibit a larger and more elaborate joint surface (scapular glenoid fossa)than the corresponding right side. If I were to assess this feature, I'd take your bet. > >Even is skeletal features can be used to argue handedness, how can an >anthropologist be sure that the individual was one handed or the other. We never are certain. >Are >there many people who record their handedness, somehow, then leave their >bodies >for anthropological investigation? Don't know. It's never been an issue. >This issue demonstrates the difficulty with inferring from some population >information, which is what many anthropological studies gather, to a specific >individual or circumstance. Even if, for example, it were possible to >demonstrate that there is a high correlation between betwen some skeletal >feature and handedness, such correlation may not allow prediction with better >than chance reliability for a single individual - and in the forensic context >we are almost always dealing with a single individual. Of course, one must be cognizant of population differences in utilizing any trait or feature. With absolutely no information about a human skeleton, I would predict right-handedness, as I like the odds. But given an individual in from any population who utilized one arm significantly more than the other (professional tennis players are often cited, but I've never seen the skeleton of one...), I would certainly opine on the issue of handedness. Bruce Anderson Department of Anthropology University of Arizona From daemon Thu Apr 25 18:03:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3PM3v720577 for forens-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3PM3uM20572 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 25 Apr 2002 22:03:56 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFK2Q3>; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:02:15 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: Forens E-mail Group Subject: RE: right or left handed? Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:02:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1ECA4.D724F640" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 11226 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ECA4.D724F640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Excluding the truly ambidextrous, I believe this will be true in most cases simply due to the fact that the dominant arm will naturally be used more often. Grip strength should therefore almost always be greater in the dominant hand, unless the person has a job or other habitual activity that causes the non-dominant hand to be used more often, as in a specific repetitive movement, e.g. in a factory or on an assembly line. For most people, the lifting capacity of the biceps and triceps (and perhaps pectoral) muscles should also be greater in the preferred arm for the same reason and with the same exception. Another exception would be in the case of a habitual weightlifter or laborer who uses both arms to the same extent. The simplest test for a living subject would be one of manual dexterity, e.g. handwriting. Unless one is truly ambidextrous, handwriting with the preferred hand will be significantly superior in legibility, neatness and technical accuracy than that with the non-preferred hand. Of course, the subject could always fake poor handwriting with the dominant hand, so it would be better to obtain previously written exemplars (checks, correspondence, etc.) to compare to demonstration writings made with what the person now claims to be their dominant hand. For a post-mortem determination, I would think that comparing the musculature and bone density of each arm might provide an indication, but the degree of certainty would be open to question. Another clue might lie in the skin on the digits of the dominant hand, which will often bear calluses or thickened skin on the inside of the first thumb joint and on the thumb-facing side of the index or middle fingers (depending on how the person habitually holds a writing implement), especially if the person does a lot of manual writing. This indication would of course apply to ante-mortem cases as well. The most reliable post-mortem indication of "handedness," though, would probably come from interviewing the decedent's known associates. Family, friends, and others who knew the subject well would almost certainly know which was the preferred hand. Ultimately, any physical testing would be indicative only, not necessarily conclusive, because there are no studies I know of that establish the specificity and reliability of such techniques. Still, there is something to be said for the power of logical inductive and deductive reasoning even in the absence of empirical data, so combined with other evidence one might be able to build a circumstantial case based on such testing. None of this would help in the case of a truly ambidextrous individual, of course. Although true ambidexterity is very rare, the exceptions above (job influences, weightlifting, etc.) will likely create many individuals for whom all the tests mentioned would be of little discriminating use and the answer would have to be "undeterminable." They're worth looking into, though. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Gerald L. Hurst [mailto:glhurst@onr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 00:33 To: Forens E-mail Group Subject: RE: right or left handed? I have read that the musculature of the preferred hand is generally much heavier. This seems to make sense and is at least true in my case. Jerry Gerald L. Hurst ghurst@austin.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Fito Scatena Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:01 PM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: right or left handed? Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left handed? TK in advance. Dr Adolfo Scatena Gral Roca Rio Negro Argentina ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ECA4.D724F640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Excluding the truly ambidextrous, I believe this will be true in most cases simply due to the fact that the dominant arm will naturally be used more often.  Grip strength should therefore almost always be greater in the dominant hand, unless the person has a job or other habitual activity that causes the non-dominant hand to be used more often, as in a specific repetitive movement, e.g. in a factory or on an assembly line.  For most people, the lifting capacity of the biceps and triceps (and perhaps pectoral) muscles should also be greater in the preferred arm for the same reason and with the same exception.  Another exception would be in the case of a habitual weightlifter or laborer who uses both arms to the same extent.  The simplest test for a living subject would be one of manual dexterity, e.g. handwriting.  Unless one is truly ambidextrous, handwriting with the preferred hand will be significantly superior in legibility, neatness and technical accuracy than that with the non-preferred hand.  Of course, the subject could always fake poor handwriting with the dominant hand, so it would be better to obtain previously written exemplars (checks, correspondence, etc.) to compare to demonstration writings made with what the person now claims to be their dominant hand. 
 
For a post-mortem determination, I would think that comparing the musculature and bone density of each arm might provide an indication, but the degree of certainty would be open to question.  Another clue might lie in the skin on the digits of the dominant hand, which will often bear calluses or thickened skin on the inside of the first thumb joint and on the thumb-facing side of the index or middle fingers (depending on how the person habitually holds a writing implement), especially if the person does a lot of manual writing.  This indication would of course apply to ante-mortem cases as well.  The most reliable post-mortem indication of "handedness," though, would probably come from interviewing the decedent's known associates.  Family, friends, and others who knew the subject well would almost certainly know which was the preferred hand.
 
Ultimately, any physical testing would be indicative only, not necessarily conclusive, because there are no studies I know of that establish the specificity and reliability of such techniques.  Still, there is something to be said for the power of logical inductive and deductive reasoning even in the absence of empirical data, so combined with other evidence one might be able to build a circumstantial case based on such testing.   None of this would help in the case of a truly ambidextrous individual, of course.  Although true ambidexterity is very rare, the exceptions above (job influences, weightlifting, etc.) will likely create many individuals for whom all the tests mentioned would be of little discriminating use and the answer would have to be "undeterminable."  They're worth looking into, though.
 
Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald L. Hurst [mailto:glhurst@onr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 00:33
To: Forens E-mail Group
Subject: RE: right or left handed?

I have read that the musculature of the preferred hand is generally much heavier.
This seems to make sense and is at least true in my case.

Jerry

Gerald L. Hurst
ghurst@austin.rr.com

 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [mailto:owner-forens@sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu]On Behalf Of Fito Scatena
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:01 PM
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: right or left handed?

Is there anyway, from the medical point of view, to prove if somebody is right handed oir left handed?
 
TK in advance.
 
Dr Adolfo Scatena
Gral Roca Rio Negro Argentina
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ECA4.D724F640-- From daemon Fri Apr 26 00:58:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3Q4wEX25879 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3Q4wCM25874 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([63.202.172.13]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GV500KL8SGXA8@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for forens@statgen.ncsu.edu; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:57:30 -0700 From: Joan Edelstein Subject: Re: Right or left handed? To: Bob Kegel , Forensic Science List , jeanette hencken Message-id: <3CC8DE3A.5F1274DA@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <3CC83D33.788A96B1@pacbell.net> <00c701c1ec91$e84c1d80$98a32640@8sv5f01> Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 1341 Bob Kegel wrote: > My callus is on the middle finger of my right hand. My impression is that's > it's less pronounced than it was when I was in grade school. 40+ years ago I > wrote everything by hand; now, I use a keyboard for everything except my > signature and a traffic ticket or two. > > Jeanette Hencken asks: > > > Isn't it possible that some people have no callus w/ the use of > > computers being as prevalent as it is today? > > I asked my schoolteacher wife to check her fifth-grade students. She reports > 9 of 16 have them. > > LPO Bob Kegel > Aberdeen Police Dept. > Aberdeen, WA That's part of why I asked. I was relieved to see that your wife found so many children without callouses. When I read about this last night, I checked and couldn't find any on my hand at all. Since I use a computer so much I wondered if the callus had to do with length of time or amount of use (I've been writing in some form for over 50 years which includes comments on student papers). My 16 year old daughter, who writes a lot and rarely uses the computer except for school papers, doesn't have one but has some darkening of the skin on one finger that takes the brunt of pressure from her pencil. Bob Parsons' response also helped! Joan Edelstein, DrPH, RN Professor, San Jose State University School of Nursing Legal Nurse Consultant From daemon Fri Apr 26 05:31:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3Q9VXq28385 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.99]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3Q9VWM28380 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Arbtracker@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id y.11c.1056bb03 (3942) for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:31:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Arbtracker@aol.com Message-ID: <11c.1056bb03.29fa786c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:31:24 EDT Subject: Gunshot Residue To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows UK sub 55 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 605 A case where I have close involvement involved a shooting incident. Five days later samples from a suspect's hair and skin showed no trace of gunshot residues. Filters from the suspect's automobile showed only one nanogramme of nitroglycerine and there was no other forensic evidence linking the suspect to a shooting incident. What is the likelihood that the suspect could have been the gunman in the shooting incident? What are the issues to be considered? I will appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge, welcome your views and any appropriate avenues for research or further enquiry. From daemon Fri Apr 26 08:02:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3QC22h00027 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mesnger1.armorholdings.com ([65.166.166.70]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3QC20M00022 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mesnger1.armorholdings.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:02:00 -0400 Received: from JAXCLSRVR.armorholdings.com (ahi-exchnode1.armorholdings.com [172.16.15.30]) by mesnger1.armorholdings.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55) id JT84RK3P; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:01:59 -0400 Received: by ahi-exchnode1.armorholdings.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <27DW6LLB>; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:01:59 -0400 From: Allen Miller To: "'forens@statgen.ncsu.edu'" Message-ID: <39C43FE0C2890740A094E9F847D3FFAD0A8F6C@ahi-exchnode1.armorholdings.com> Subject: FW: Gunshot Residue Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:01:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2263 First off, gunshot residues are transient at best. The best evidence is collected minutes to hours after the shooting takes place. Every action that the shooter takes removes particles from his body (and there aren't many to begin with). To find residues in the shooters vehicle is just as much a crap shoot. If the car was moving when the shooting took place, then the air circulating through the vehicle would most likely prevent the residues from settling in one area. If the gun was stuck out the window and shot, the powder cloud would also be outside and would settle to the ground. If the gun was shot in the car, and 5 days have passed, each occupant that enters and leaves will remove the residues with them. To determine if the suspect and the shooter are the same person, will, unfortunately, have to come down to good old fashion police work. With the expanded time frame from the shooting to the processing, it doesn't look like forensics will be able to help you this time. Other things you don't talk about....Were there other targets struck? Were there any witnesses? Was the car struck during the shooting? If other items were struck, then you could attempt to reconstruct the shooting with bullet path reconstruction, and possibly use witness statements to corroborate. Best of luck. Allen Miller Forensic Technical Manager Lightning Powder Company Armor Holdings, Inc. 13386 International Parkway Jacksonville, Florida 32218 904-741-1787 amiller@armorholdings.com -----Original Message----- From: Arbtracker@aol.com [mailto:Arbtracker@aol.com] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:31 AM To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Gunshot Residue A case where I have close involvement involved a shooting incident. Five days later samples from a suspect's hair and skin showed no trace of gunshot residues. Filters from the suspect's automobile showed only one nanogramme of nitroglycerine and there was no other forensic evidence linking the suspect to a shooting incident. What is the likelihood that the suspect could have been the gunman in the shooting incident? What are the issues to be considered? I will appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge, welcome your views and any appropriate avenues for research or further enquiry. From daemon Fri Apr 26 10:14:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3QEEbn02451 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nda.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3QEEYM02446 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsnl.net (unknown [203.197.203.221]) by nda.vsnl.net.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD88C410B0; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:34:26 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3CC939B2.E71F74C5@vsnl.net> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:57:46 +0530 From: Professor Anil Aggrawal Reply-To: dr_anil@hotmail.com Organization: S-299 Greater Kailash-1, New Delhi-110048 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Cc: annecarlile@wxc.net.nz, "John H. Trestrail, III" , "John H. Trestrail, III (work)" , Alan Barbour , Sivaloganathan , Sivaloganathan , "gyan fernando (main)" Subject: SMFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2624 Dear Friends, I have got the following query from Newzealand. This is from a lady who is genuinely concerned about the levels of SMFA in their environment. Could somebody give me (and her) the answer please? Thanks. I could have answered her, but I am more confident in our collective wisdom, than in my meagre little knowledge. Members who are interested in getting in touch with her directly may contact her at annecarlile@wxc.net.nz Her name is Anne Carlile. However I would appreciate a copy of the answer, since I would love to know the answers too. Here goes her mail verbatim! ***Anne Carlile's Original Message*** Dear Professor, I wrote to you some time ago about the use of 1080 (SMFA) in New Zealand. I am wondering if you are able to assist me please. Are you able to tell me how SMFA affects the Krebs cycle, what it breaks down into in the human body, and how it causes chronic fatigue/exhaustion. Does it cause a decrease in the uptake of oxygen in the body? Would it take repeated doses of sub-lethal amounts of SMFA to cause tiredeness and cardiac problems? What would be the levels to cause problems? Could it be 1ppm, or less? Any information you are able to give me would be appreciated. The debate here has become public in the local newspapers. Thank you, Anne Carlile annecarlile@wxc.net.nz ***End of Anne Carlile's Original Message*** Sincerely Professor Anil Aggrawal Professor of Forensic Medicine Maulana Azad Medical College S-299 Greater Kailash-1 New Delhi-110048 INDIA Phone: 6465460, 6413101 Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com Page me via ICQ #19727771 Websites: 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html 6. Forensic Careers http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being called when the top doctors have failed!* `\|||/ (@@) ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ From daemon Fri Apr 26 11:41:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3QFf6Y04343 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay3.mail.twtelecom.net (relay3.mail.twtelecom.net [216.136.95.10]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3QFf5M04338 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net (66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net [66.162.146.157]) by relay3.mail.twtelecom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id BB8DD48A0 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:41:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SCANMAIL by 66-162-146-157.gen.twtelecom.net via smtpd (for relay3.mail.twtelecom.net [216.136.95.10]) with SMTP; 26 Apr 2002 15:25:35 UT Received: FROM mail.co.kern.ca.us BY scanmail ; Fri Apr 26 08:37:52 2002 -0700 Received: from KERNMAIL-Message_Server by mail.co.kern.ca.us with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:41:01 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.2.1 Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:40:46 -0700 From: "Greg Laskowski" To: , Subject: Re: Gunshot Residue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu id g3QFf6M04339 Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2326 Gunshot residue is transient in nature, Testing an individual for its presence after five days would most probably yield a negative result. If results were positive, it would certainly raise doubt if it could be related to the suspected incident. Even testing an individual who recently used a firearm can yield negative results. If residues are detected, it could mean the person was in the immediate vicinity of firearm when discharged or handled an object that had become contaminated with gunshot residue. Studies conducted in the United Kingdom as well as the United States have shown that these residues may be found in police vehicles and could easily contaminated a suspect when placed inside for transport. Most gunshot residues detected are particles of discharge or primer residues containing lead, barium, and antimony. However, these substances may not be present in some modern ammunition as manufacturers are tinkering with environmentally friendly substitute formulations. The discovery of nitroglycerine in the individual's car raises interesting questions. Nitroglycerine is found in double bases smokeless gunpowders, but is is also associated with high explosives such as dynamite or with heart medication. So, in answer to your inquiry, it is my opinion that materials recovered and tested can only raise suspicion, and the suspect may have a sufficient and logical explanation regarding the presence of the materials detected. I hope I was able to shed some light on your problem. Gregory E. Laskowski Supervising Criminalist Kern County District Attorney Forensic Science Division e-mail: glaskows@co.kern.ca.us office phone: (661) 868-5659 >>> 04/26 2:31 AM >>> A case where I have close involvement involved a shooting incident. Five days later samples from a suspect's hair and skin showed no trace of gunshot residues. Filters from the suspect's automobile showed only one nanogramme of nitroglycerine and there was no other forensic evidence linking the suspect to a shooting incident. What is the likelihood that the suspect could have been the gunman in the shooting incident? What are the issues to be considered? I will appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge, welcome your views and any appropriate avenues for research or further enquiry. From daemon Fri Apr 26 17:26:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3QLQ0o10841 for forens-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:26:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us (thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us [209.149.16.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3QLPvM10836 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us by thor2.ircc.cc.fl.us via smtpd (for sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu [152.14.14.17]) with SMTP; 26 Apr 2002 21:25:57 UT Received: by exch1.ircc.cc.fl.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <20JFKMJM>; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:24:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Robert Parsons To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: Gunshot Residue Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:24:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED68.B40172A0" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 8966 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED68.B40172A0 Content-Type: text/plain The likelihood is not determinable based on the information you provided, as it neither supports nor detracts from the hypothesis that your subject is the shooter. That you found no GSR residues means absolutely nothing, because GSR evidence is extremely perishable. Even in cases where the true shooter is nabbed within minutes of the shooting, residues still may not be found on his person. Simply clapping the hands together vigorously or rubbing them on a seatback, towel, clothing, etc., will remove most of the residue particles from the hands. This is why officers are trained to bag shooting suspects' hands immediately upon apprehension, or if that's not possible, to at least cuff them in front of their bodies rather than behind their backs, so that their hands will not rub between their clothing and the seat of the patrol car as they sit in it on their way to jail. Even when all such precautions are taken, GSR is often identified less than 50% the time (at least if case statistics I've seen are any indication). If the subject washed his hands or showered, then it would become extremely unlikely that you would find any residues at all. After 5 days, I would say the chances of finding residues on the person himself were nil. If you could collect his UNWASHED clothing, you might have some luck finding residues there. Other places to look would be fabric seats or any other surface he is known to have come into contact with immediately after the shooting that would tend to trap residue particles, keeping in mind that his car may not be the best place to look if he didn't use it during or immediately following the shooting. But even if you find residues on some such surface, then you have the problem of being able to demonstrate that the residues you found could only have been deposited by the subject, and no one else, and that's going to be extremely difficult to establish. In the same light, even if you find a GSR particle or two on the suspect, that won't necessarily help establish the suspect as the shooter. All it would demonstrate was that he at some time was in the environment of a discharging or previously discharged firearm. One could innocently pick up a few particles merely by resting your hand on the same horizontal surface that a recently discharged weapon had been previously placed upon, or which was in the proximity of a weapon when it discharged, so it has very little probative value. Now if you found a wealth of GSR on the hands, and could quantitate the comparative amounts of residue on different parts of the hand, then you could draw more meaningful indications about the subject's involvement in the discharge of a firearm. As it is, I don't think GSR is going to help you make a case of any kind. Unfortunately, your time would probably be better spent following other leads. Bob Parsons, F-ABC Forensic Chemist Regional Crime Laboratory at Indian River Community College Ft. Pierce, FL -----Original Message----- From: Arbtracker@aol.com [mailto:Arbtracker@aol.com] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 05:31 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: Gunshot Residue A case where I have close involvement involved a shooting incident. Five days later samples from a suspect's hair and skin showed no trace of gunshot residues. Filters from the suspect's automobile showed only one nanogramme of nitroglycerine and there was no other forensic evidence linking the suspect to a shooting incident. What is the likelihood that the suspect could have been the gunman in the shooting incident? What are the issues to be considered? I will appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge, welcome your views and any appropriate avenues for research or further enquiry. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED68.B40172A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Gunshot Residue

The likelihood is not determinable based on the = information you provided, as it neither supports nor detracts from the = hypothesis that your subject is the shooter.  That you found no = GSR residues means absolutely nothing, because GSR evidence is = extremely perishable.  Even in cases where the true shooter is = nabbed within minutes of the shooting, residues still may not be found = on his person.  Simply clapping the hands together vigorously or = rubbing them on a seatback, towel, clothing, etc., will remove most of = the residue particles from the hands. This is why officers are trained = to bag shooting suspects' hands immediately upon apprehension, or if = that's not possible, to at least cuff them in front of their bodies = rather than behind their backs, so that their hands will not rub = between their clothing and the seat of the patrol car as they sit in it = on their way to jail.  Even when all such precautions are taken, = GSR is often identified less than 50% the time (at least if case = statistics I've seen are any indication).

If the subject washed his hands or showered, then it = would become extremely unlikely that you would find any residues at = all.  After 5 days, I would say the chances of finding residues on = the person himself were nil.  If you could collect his UNWASHED = clothing, you might have some luck finding residues there.  Other = places to look would be fabric seats or any other surface he is known = to have come into contact with immediately after the shooting that = would tend to trap residue particles, keeping in mind that his car may = not be the best place to look if he didn't use it during or immediately = following the shooting.  But even if you find residues on some = such surface, then you have the problem of being able to demonstrate = that the residues you found could only have been deposited by the = subject, and no one else, and that's going to be extremely difficult to = establish.

In the same light, even if you find a GSR particle or = two on the suspect, that won't necessarily help establish the suspect = as the shooter.  All it would demonstrate was that he at some time = was in the environment of a discharging or previously discharged = firearm.  One could innocently pick up a few particles merely by = resting your hand on the same horizontal surface that a recently = discharged weapon had been previously placed upon, or which was in the = proximity of a weapon when it discharged, so it has very little = probative value.  Now if you found a wealth of GSR on the hands, = and could quantitate the comparative amounts of residue on different = parts of the hand, then you could draw more meaningful indications = about the subject's involvement in the discharge of a = firearm.

As it is, I don't think GSR is going to help you make = a case of any kind.  Unfortunately, your time would probably be = better spent following other leads.

Bob Parsons, F-ABC
Forensic Chemist
Regional Crime Laboratory
at Indian River Community College
Ft. Pierce, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Arbtracker@aol.com [mailto:Arbtracker@aol.com]=
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 05:31
To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu
Subject: Gunshot Residue


A case where I have close involvement involved a = shooting incident. Five days
later samples from a suspect's hair and skin showed = no trace of gunshot
residues. Filters from the suspect's automobile = showed only one nanogramme of
nitroglycerine and there was no other forensic = evidence linking the suspect
to a shooting incident.
What is the likelihood that the suspect could have = been the gunman in the
shooting incident? What are the issues to be = considered?
I will appreciate you taking time to share your = knowledge, welcome your views
and any appropriate avenues for research or further = enquiry.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED68.B40172A0-- From daemon Sat Apr 27 18:07:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3RM7q825679 for forens-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 2002 18:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app2.nasc.inter.net (clueponbook.nasc.inter.net [203.176.60.253]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3RM7VM25674 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2002 18:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tn1-38.knt.istar.ca ([137.186.36.244] helo=fox.nstn.ca) by app2.nasc.inter.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 171aLm-00031W-00; Sat, 27 Apr 2002 18:07:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3CCAF695.576456A6@fox.nstn.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 19:05:57 +0000 From: "Peter W. Mullen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: annecarlile@wxc.net.nz, dr_anil@hotmail.com, "Forensic Newsgroup (main)" Subject: Re: SMFA References: <3CC939B2.E71F74C5@vsnl.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BDEEBC1834329CE877088E0A" Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 10596 --------------BDEEBC1834329CE877088E0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Anne, "Compound 1080", the sodium salt of monofluoroacetic acid (CH2FCOOH), is a white, odourless and potentially highly toxic chemical which has been used as an insecticide, rodenticide and in "livestock protection collars" to kill sheep predators. Monofluoroacetic acid also occurs naturally in "Gifblaar", a South African plant (Dichapetalum cymosum), and in several plant species of Western Australia including "Gidgee" (Acacia georginae). The estimated lethal dose in humans is in the 2 to10 mg/kg range. Extensive studies of the mechanism of action of fluoroacetate were conducted by Sir Rudolph Peters in the 1950s. Peters established that fluoroacetate, like acetate itself, enters the Kreb's cycle leading to the formation of fluorocitrate which in turn inhibits the enzyme aconitase which would normally continue the cycle by converting citrate to isocitrate. This block in the Kreb's cycle (oxidative respiration) is responsible for the toxic manifestations of "1080" and led Peters to propose the classic toxicological concept of "lethal synthesis". This compound has not been much studied in recent years. After acute ingestion of "1080", initial nausea and abdominal pain are followed by tachycardia, hypotension, convulsions and (perhaps several days later) renal failure, and respiratory and cardiac arrest. Measurement of fluoroacetate and fluorocitrate in tissues is indicative of poisoning with this substance as are increased concentrations of natural citrate. Unfortunately, little is known about chronic human exposure to low levels of "1080". NIOSH has set a Threshold Limit Value (TLV - TWA) of 0.05 mg/m3. Perhaps you could elaborate re. your query about the 1ppm concentration. Is that in water? I hope this information is of some use to you. Best wishes, Peter W. Mullen, Ph.D. Kemic Bioresearch Kentville Nova Scotia, B4N 4H8 Canada Tel. 902-678-8195; Fax. 902-678-2839; URL www.kemic.com Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote: > Dear Friends, > I have got the following query from Newzealand. This is from a lady who > is genuinely concerned about the levels of SMFA in their environment. > Could somebody give me (and her) the answer please? Thanks. I could have > answered her, but I am more confident in our collective wisdom, than in > my meagre little knowledge. Members who are interested in getting in > touch with her directly may contact her at > annecarlile@wxc.net.nz > Her name is Anne Carlile. However I would appreciate a copy of the > answer, since I would love to know the answers too. > Here goes her mail verbatim! > > ***Anne Carlile's Original Message*** > Dear Professor, > I wrote to you some time ago about the use of 1080 (SMFA) in New > Zealand. I am wondering if you are able to assist me please. > > Are you able to tell me how SMFA affects the Krebs cycle, what it > breaks down into in the human body, and how it causes chronic > fatigue/exhaustion. Does it > cause a decrease in the uptake of oxygen in the body? > > Would it take repeated doses of sub-lethal amounts of SMFA to cause > tiredeness and cardiac problems? > > What would be the levels to cause problems? Could it be 1ppm, or less? > > Any information you are able to give me would be appreciated. The > debate here has become public in the local newspapers. > > Thank you, > Anne Carlile > > annecarlile@wxc.net.nz > ***End of Anne Carlile's Original Message*** > Sincerely > Professor Anil Aggrawal > Professor of Forensic Medicine > Maulana Azad Medical College > S-299 Greater Kailash-1 > New Delhi-110048 > INDIA > Phone: 6465460, 6413101 > Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com > Page me via ICQ #19727771 > Websites: > 1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology > http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html > 2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia > http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html > 3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page > http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html > 4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page > http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235 > 5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews > http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html > 6. Forensic Careers > http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html > > *Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I > tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being > called when the top doctors have failed!* > `\|||/ > (@@) > ooO (_) Ooo________________________________ > _____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| > ___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____ > _____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____ --------------BDEEBC1834329CE877088E0A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Anne,

"Compound 1080",  the sodium salt of monofluoroacetic acid (CH2FCOOH), is a white, odourless and potentially highly toxic chemical which has been used as an insecticide, rodenticide and in "livestock protection collars" to kill sheep predators.  Monofluoroacetic acid also occurs naturally in "Gifblaar", a South African plant (Dichapetalum cymosum), and in several plant species of Western Australia including "Gidgee" (Acacia georginae).  The estimated lethal dose in humans is in the 2 to10 mg/kg range.

Extensive studies of the mechanism of action of fluoroacetate were conducted by Sir Rudolph Peters in the 1950s.  Peters established that fluoroacetate, like acetate itself, enters the Kreb's cycle leading to the formation of fluorocitrate which in turn inhibits the enzyme aconitase which would normally continue the cycle by converting citrate to isocitrate.  This block in the Kreb's cycle (oxidative respiration) is responsible for the toxic manifestations of  "1080" and led Peters to propose the classic toxicological concept of "lethal synthesis".  This compound has not been much studied in recent years.

After acute ingestion of "1080", initial nausea and abdominal pain are followed by tachycardia, hypotension, convulsions and (perhaps several days later) renal failure, and respiratory and cardiac arrest.  Measurement of  fluoroacetate and fluorocitrate in tissues is indicative of poisoning with this substance as are increased concentrations of natural citrate.

Unfortunately, little is known about chronic human exposure to low levels of "1080".  NIOSH has set a Threshold Limit Value (TLV - TWA) of 0.05 mg/m3.  Perhaps you could elaborate re. your query about the 1ppm concentration.  Is that in water?

I hope this information is of some use to you.

Best wishes,

Peter W. Mullen, Ph.D.
Kemic Bioresearch
Kentville
Nova Scotia,  B4N 4H8
Canada

Tel. 902-678-8195;  Fax. 902-678-2839;   URL  www.kemic.com
 

Professor Anil Aggrawal wrote:

Dear Friends,
I have got the following query from Newzealand. This is from a lady who
is genuinely concerned about the levels of SMFA in their environment.
Could somebody give me (and her) the answer please? Thanks. I could have
answered her, but I am more confident in our collective wisdom, than in
my meagre little knowledge. Members who are interested in getting in
touch with her directly may contact her at
annecarlile@wxc.net.nz
Her name is Anne Carlile. However I would appreciate a copy of the
answer, since I would love to know the answers too.
Here goes her mail verbatim!

***Anne Carlile's Original Message***
Dear Professor,
 I wrote to you some time ago about the use of 1080 (SMFA) in New
Zealand.  I am wondering if you are able to assist me please.

 Are you able to tell me how SMFA affects the Krebs cycle, what it
breaks down into in the human body, and how it causes chronic
fatigue/exhaustion.  Does it
 cause a decrease in the uptake of oxygen in the body?

 Would it take repeated doses of sub-lethal amounts of SMFA to cause
tiredeness and cardiac problems?

 What would be the levels to cause problems?  Could it be 1ppm, or less?

 Any information you are able to give me would be appreciated.  The
debate here has become public in the local newspapers.

 Thank you,
 Anne Carlile

 annecarlile@wxc.net.nz
***End of Anne Carlile's Original Message***
Sincerely
Professor Anil Aggrawal
Professor of Forensic Medicine
Maulana Azad Medical College
S-299 Greater Kailash-1
New Delhi-110048
INDIA
Phone: 6465460, 6413101
Email:dr_anil@hotmail.com
Page me via ICQ #19727771
Websites:
1.Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology
http://anil299.tripod.com/indexpapers.html
2. Book reviews of latest forensic books/journals/software/multimedia
http://anil299.tripod.com/sundry/reviews/publishers/pub001.html
3. Anil Aggrawal's Forensic Toxicology Page
http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/index.html
4. Anil Aggrawal's Popular Forensic Medicine Page
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/williamson/235
5. Anil Aggrawal's Internet Journal of Book Reviews
http://anil_300.tripod.com/index.html
6. Forensic Careers
http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/electrical/314/career.html

*Many people ask me why I chose Forensic Medicine as a career, and I
tell them that it is because a forensic man gets the honor of being
called when the top doctors have failed!*
  `\|||/
   (@@)
ooO (_) Ooo________________________________
_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____
_____|_____Please pardon the intrusion_|____|_____

--------------BDEEBC1834329CE877088E0A-- From daemon Mon Apr 29 11:19:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3TFJWI03575 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3TFJVH03570 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:19:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Lodder, Richard" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 2861 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Lodder, Richard" ] >From forens-owner Thu Apr 25 18:35:05 2002 Received: from mx.police.vic.gov.au ([203.25.230.22]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3PMZ3M21285 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wt14x01.police.vic.gov.au (unverified) by mx.police.vic.gov.au (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:38:39 +1000 Received: by wt14x01.police.vic.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1KQGDA1F>; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:34:43 +1000 Message-ID: From: "Lodder, Richard" To: "'Alikatt@aol.com'" , forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: HFE-7100 Engineered fluid Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:34:31 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In Melbourne we use AK225 as the solvent for ninhydrin. We did evaluate HFE and found it to be suitable, but AK225 was cheaper. We get AK225 from AGAS, it is manufactured by the Asahiklin Glass Company in Japan. Richard A. LODDER Sergeant 20100 -----Original Message----- From: Alikatt@aol.com [mailto:Alikatt@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2002 01:55 To: forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: HFE-7100 Engineered fluid Has anyone used this chemical when mixing ninhydrin? If so, have you noticed a decrease in effectiveness after a few weeks? We've noticed that when using freshly mixed ninhydrin, prints appear very quickly. However, when using solution that is a few weeks old, very few prints appear on the item, and they are very faint. When re-dipped with freshly mixed ninhydrin, prints tend to appear. We store the ninhydrin in a dark bottle in a cabinet, as suggested. Thanks, Alison Chandler PD Chandler, AZ ================================================================= The information contained in this email and any files attached may be confidential information to the intended recipient and may be the subject of legal privilege or public interest immunity. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying is unauthorised. If you have received this document in error please telephone 1300 307 082 ******************************************************************* This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* From daemon Mon Apr 29 11:20:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: (from MajorDomo@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g3TFKAp03652 for forens-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cbasten@localhost) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3TFK9n03647 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Basten To: Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Aldridge, Michael" ] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 3172 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:04:39 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu To: owner-forens@statgen.ncsu.edu Subject: BOUNCE forens@statgen.ncsu.edu: Non-member submission from ["Aldridge, Michael" ] >From forens-owner Mon Apr 29 09:04:37 2002 Received: from h3-exch3.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us (h3-exch3.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us [207.49.100.4]) by sun01pt2-1523.statgen.ncsu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3TD4a202118 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by H3-EXCH3 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:04:36 -0400 Message-ID: <26EFEADEDCAED41181990008C7D21C4D0104ED59@h3-exch2.cmpd.ci.charlotte.nc.us> From: "Aldridge, Michael" To: "Forensic List E-Mail (E-mail)" Cc: "Ward, Bill [CMPD]" Subject: biological infection assault/homicide Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:04:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1EF7E.67991D10" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1EF7E.67991D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" does anyone have information about assault/ homicide by the introduction of an infectious agent / under what conditions can a individualized link between the "donor" and victim be established. not interested in anthrax or AIDS transfer during struggles , drug needle sharing or sexual liaisons/ this case may be in intentional & covert infection of a victim by an agent which would cause death from "septic conditions" ( sorry this is all the info I have at this time). Suspect is a nurse (who works giving home care to the public) who recently had insurance transferred to her name. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1EF7E.67991D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable biological infection assault/homicide

does anyone have information about = assault/ homicide by the introduction of an infectious agent / under = what conditions can a individualized link between the "donor" = and victim be established.

not interested in anthrax or AIDS = transfer during struggles , drug needle sharing or sexual liaisons/ = this case may be in intentional & covert infection of a victim by = an agent which would cause death from "septic = conditions"  ( sorry this is all the info I have at this = time). Suspect is a nurse (who works giving home care to the public) = who recently had insurance transferred to her name.

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